The good, the bad and the ugly training thread

[9Aplus]

Once upon the time you sign the training contract with good nice
small ATO using modern composite trainer.
Than out of nowhere big operator buy off that ATO,
while majority of good people leaving and you are still in hope,
that the things are not going on the bad heading.
When you ask the regulator to perform their primary task by reporting,
regarding quality and safety,
things may become ugly.
EASA file AR.EU-EASA-2018-000030

When you hear about next midair crash in training, remember that
one of above big&bad and one of ugly&regulator are already involved.
Within recent number of tragic incidents in row, over EASA lands....

[Non-PC Plod]

If you want to tell us something, you need to be clear what you are talking about, otherwise there is no point! If there is a warning to make, you will have to be specific.

[9Aplus]

I am talking about problem when regulator is trying to cover up (quality&safety)
problems under ATO owned by one of leading operators under EASA,
but present WW too.
EASA is working on that, but in the mean time better be careful than sorry.
For average PPRUNE-r it is not difficult to identify the trainer (we love the type),
operator(un-famous about falling from the sky) and regulator. (supposed to do all by the book, but that is just fairy tale)

[GoodGrief]

Dude, are you drunk ?

[9Aplus]

Ah, I was expecting... such kind approach.
Unfortunately not.
But regulator from your location may have been
during that particular ATO authorization.

[[email protected]]

9Aplus - if it is that important - and you clearly think it is - name names:ok:

[HeliHenri]

Hello 9Aplus,

Sorry to hear that for 9Aplus Junior.
HA had a very good reputation before the buyout.
.

[Rigga]

9Aplus,
As much as you would like to hint at an apparently serious issue with a European ATO, nothing you have said actually makes sense and does not lead anyone to help you. Even the EASA reference you give is not decipherable to us Europeans!
If it is as serious as you think, you need to give some detail to your problem, without names dates or places if possible.

[whoknows idont]

...small ATO using modern composite trainer.
Than out of nowhere big operator buy off that ATO...

He might be talking about former Heli-Aviation, now Babcock?

When you ask the regulator to perform their primary task by reporting,
regarding quality and safety,
things may become ugly.
EASA file AR.EU-EASA-2018-000030

When you hear about next midair crash in training, remember that
one of above big&bad and one of ugly&regulator are already involved.
Within recent number of tragic incidents in row, over EASA lands.... All of that is way above me. :confused:

9A+, you're speaking in riddles!

[9Aplus]

LBA & EASA are on the move....
regarding possible findings and corrective measures.

In the mean time, please be warned,
about possible serious ATO quality and safety issues.

That's all folks, for now, till some official reports.

Cheers by 9A+
EASA European Safety Promotion Network Rotorcraft (ESPN-R) member
in real faith that, this words and graphs here bellow are not just for show up->
https://vimeo.com/125411545

@HeliHenri tnx, you know well that type is my preferable trainer ;)

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I'll have a bottle of whatever he's been drinking.

If there's a problem, and there are a few name the problem rather than just insinuate.

SND

[9Aplus]

So you call EASA filed case an insinuation?!
Bravo.
Better use that bottle ASAP :D

[Non-PC Plod]

No, he is saying that you are insinuating, instead of just telling us clearly what on earth you are talking about.
If you have something important to say, then say it, instead of hinting and skirting round the subject enigmatically!

[Thomas coupling]

Perhaps, just perhaps, his first language isn't english and he's trying to prevent himself from being sued for slander?

[9Aplus]

True... / about first :) /
But only ATO may be sued after LBA and EASA are done with them.
Till then, please keep above information like small contribution in general safety
of training. Hope you are able to understand at last that :P

[Heathcliff]

What information? "Poo or get off the pot" as they say.

[Spunk]

To sum it up (all rumours of course):
Heli Aviation was a good running ATO in the south of Germany, training on Cabri G2 (composite heli). It was a fast growing (too fast some would say) company with some interesting contracts in Africa and some other countries in the world.
Then Babcock moved in and (after purchasing the company) found out that their new baby wasn’t all that shiny as it looked like when they first bought it. Allegedly they found some discrepancies in technical documentation as well as in all of the other departments.
Rumours say that they had to close down the flight school for a period of time to straighten things out and reported the findings to EASA/LBA.
But maybe it was EASA/LBA who found out themselves as one would imagine that they audited the company due to the change in ownership. Who knows?

But all this took already place in 2016. So A9plus, what took you so long?

[Thomas coupling]

Vielen danke

[9Aplus]

@Spunk
Just valid training contract for CPL H integrated, signed with HA

[GoodGrief]

So you're saying you had a training contract, payed money up front and the new owner won't honour that contract ?

[9Aplus]

Close to that.
Contract is terminated now...
LBA and ATO have few things to explain to EASA and above.

[GoodGrief]

To add to Spunk...
All rumour of course.
There was a MAD man, who apparently instructed big type ratings for five people at five different locations at the very same time.
He was found out, got his license revoked and is facing criminal charges.

All third hand fly on the wall info...

[9Aplus]

@GG
You are more than welcome to add poo to the thread
but when **** hits the fan... again,
do not ask for condolences.

[GoodGrief]

No comprende.

[9Aplus]

"No Comprende"

You know you didn't understand me
I didn't say it was a problem
Before you start to make assumtions
Let's try to cut to the solution
You know we should have seen it coming
You couldn't wait till it crossed that line
Your hands were tied

I know I do not know the language
(our house is on fire)
You keep me talking in a circle
(house with desire)
You can't just throw it in the trailer
You've got to stack it so it's stable
(our house is on fire)
Got to wind up all the cables
Couldn't wait to cross that line
Your hands were tied

To the last that you could find
It breaks you everytime
On fire
(aooooooo)
House is on fire
(aoooooo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfjysllZyg

[Heathcliff]

To sum it up (all rumours of course):
Heli Aviation was a good running ATO in the south of Germany, training on Cabri G2 (composite heli). It was a fast growing (too fast some would say) company with some interesting contracts in Africa and some other countries in the world.
Then Babcock moved in and (after purchasing the company) found out that their new baby wasn’t all that shiny as it looked like when they first bought it. Allegedly they found some discrepancies in technical documentation as well as in all of the other departments.
Rumours say that they had to close down the flight school for a period of time to straighten things out and reported the findings to EASA/LBA.
But maybe it was EASA/LBA who found out themselves as one would imagine that they audited the company due to the change in ownership. Who knows?

But all this took already place in 2016. So A9plus, what took you so long?

THANK YOU. Why the OP didn't say this in the first place I have no idea.

[Bellrider]

I heard rumors, that Babcock only moved into the german market, for bringing a feet into the german HEMS paradise.
Heliaviation was only pumped up with money from one of it‘s owners. Babcock MUST knew that..... So they Must have other motivation to capture a rotten egg.
The old CEO you are talking about, is a real idiot..... I‘am happy to hear that he lost his license......

[9Aplus]

You may be on the right track.
The fact is that we are not ready to accept position of
collateral damage. Within (then) valid training contract. ;)
The whole game is not just sole ATO responsibility, but LBA too.
If we suffer some "damage", they may receive some scratch too.
At last you all here should know that training there may suffer
serious quality and safety issues.

[hueyracer]

9APlus:

Sorry, but you should use "google translate" if you are not able to communicate in english-but then, if you cannot pass ELP4, you might need more than "just" a helicopter ATO..

You are getting confused about a lot of things here:

If you had a training contract with Heli Aviation-that is between you and Heli Aviation (and your lawyer, if needed)...
This has nothing to do with Babcock....although they might have bought your contract with Heli Aviation-that is up to the lawyers and the court to decide.....
Nothing of interest to the community here....

The issue between the LBA and Heli Aviation (now Babcock MCS Germany) are a complete different subject-and your usage of the words "LBA" and "EASA" shows that you fail to understand how the authorities and responsibilities are divided these days...

EASA has nothing to do with Heli Aviation......
The ATO and/or AOC is under the responsibility of the LBA-the German CAA.
They are a member of EASA-and act accordingly.

EASA (who have their HQ in Germany/cologne-but that is just coincidence in that case) do not get involved directly with an ATO....this is the responsibility of the LBA...


So i would recommend you either say what you have to say.....or leave it like that...

[9Aplus]

Dear hueyracer,
It seems that I am not the only one who should use "google translate".

It is Friday, I am in the good mood. So just for you, (read my lips):
Babcock MCS Germany ATO is not able to provide CPL H integrated training
because serious quality and safety issues.
Heli Aviation was another (much more positive) story... regarding at last training.
Good enough?

[whoknows idont]

There you go, was that so hard?
Next time please put your cards on the table right away.

[Spunk]

So 9APlus, you are blaming the new owner for the mismanagement which took place in the past but was detected after the acquisition? You are complaining about safety issues which obviously arose under the old management when, according to your comment, “the training part” was better?

Sorry, I don’t get it.

[9Aplus]

For the average student under old owner all was fine.
New owner and guess what ->
1. ATO suspension
2. Helis grounded at last twice & FNPT II declared but not included in ATO
3. Manpower left
4. Who cares approach
5. Misleading or lack of accurate information(s)
6. Strange LBA behavior on quality issues and resulting safety...

[hueyracer]

I guess you can proof all that, and you have examples at hand?

From what i heard, the new management is just doing things the way they are supposed to be-no more bull****ting (like it happened before-from what i heard...)..

So i don´t get it how you can throw **** at the new management, when they are now working with the LBA to get things right....

Maybe you should just present your case-and stop spoon-feeding us?

[9Aplus]

You heard wishful thinking. :)
Just opposite.
The new management still trying to cover up, whole bull****.

Case is presented to EASA, because LBA was not enough&ready.

Here, just general warning to all, like good will and prevention.

[9Aplus]

Few in LBA and Babcock HQ may expected =>

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-033d0ec55bc0a4c35ab737e7ab0fa039-c?convert_to_webp=true

Sorry, not this time....

[9Aplus]

La commedia e finita!!!
Babcock MCS is just about to close down operations in Germany.
No surprise, Karma is a bi*h...
Good luck to all professionals there.

https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/augsburg/Helikopter-Firma-Babcock-am-Flughafen-schliesst-id52656746.html