Really Top Guys Leaving

[Arfur Dent]

In the past ( 20 years ago) the holes left by REALLY good guys leaving were filled by up and coming REALLY good guys.
Now?
Not sure.

[Krone]

Really?
What’s your point, please spit it out.
Aircraft accidents are at an all time low. Training has adapted to the management roll a pilot performs, rather than the manual skills of yesteryear.

The crm free world of the 70s and 80s is long past, where the authoritarian captain was boss . Period.

Think KLM Tenerife .

[Flex88]

Krone is one of the third floor Talking Heads puking out the daily talking points.. This will not end well - history proves.

[FUANNA]

There are indeed top guys leaving at the moment. People in their 40s.

[ACMS]

AND Girls.

[Trafalgar]

It's a simple calculation. When I joined, CX attracted and hired thousands of hours a year of experience. Now, they are losing thousands of hours a year in experience. You cannot have the same outcome with those two completely divergent facts. Time will prove this era as the cause of tragedy. Watch and wait.

[enoughisenough_]

Plenty of airlines around the world use cadet recruitment programs. Easyjet etc.
Nil accidents. You are not the sky gods you think you are.

And before you say your flying is more difficult... it ain't.

[pilotchute]

You must be management

[enoughisenough_]

Typical response yet with no substance.

[raven11]

Enoughisenough....

Not in the USA. As a result of a rash of accidents the FAA banned cadet programs, and other bottom-of-the-barrel hiring policies, that put a 150 hour pilot directly into the right seat of a commercial jet. The practice of hiring low hour commercial pilots as co-pilots in a commercial airline has been outlawed. Some cadet programs exist, but a minimum hour requirement is mandated before a cadet hire can qualify as a co-pilot in commercial jet operations....and it’s not 150 hours.

Altough previously first officers were required to have only a commercial pilot certificate, which required 150 hours, the new FAA rule requires first officers to hold an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate, requiring 1,500 hours total time as a pilot.

More recently, as regional airlines struggled to recruit experienced co-pilots, the FAA eased up a bit by allowing military pilots with a minimum of 500 hours of flying experience to become commercial co-pilots...but a minimum of 1,500 hours is required for non-military pilots.

All this is easily googled...so take a break from your other less pressing office duties and search for yourself.

After all, common sense should tell you that experience is a key metric when determining competence in any profession...especially for one where safety is the highest priority.

Is that substantive enough for you?

[Callsign Kilo]

Cathay Pacific. Same as any other job really. The Halcyon days are long gone. Genuinely shameful

[plainpilot11]

Raven11

I think you mean 250 hours for a CPL for fixed wing, 150 for rotorcraft

[Freehills]

raven11

Not really - is there any evidence that the 1500 limit has increased safety in the US vs countries that don’t have it?

It was common sense that bad air caused malaria.

[raven11]

Freehills

“Common sense that bad air caused malaria.”?

No, that’s not common sense...that’s stupidly.

You then try to make a snarky point by asking for any evidence that the 1500 limit has increased safety? I can’t provide that evidence.
However, I’ll side with common sense and the FAA; unless of course you can provide any evidence that it hasn’t improved safety. Can you?

In the mean time, ask yourself why it costs more to recruit and hire experienced pilots...and why you and every other pilot track their flying hours in a personal logbook?

[Trafalgar]

Raven, trying to argue with the irrational is....well, irrational. :ugh: (oh, and enoughisenough is a CX cubicle dweller, where the facts and common sense are subsumed by the overwhelming desire to improve ones bonus. Again, not worth even responding to. They are toxic, every single one of the 'swine').

[Freehills]

My point is 1500 is completely arbitrary. The standard number of hours of practice that is needed to become an expert (eg a soloist musician) is generally held to be 10,000

That would make much more sense at least there is some science behind it

[enoughisenough_]

raven11

The 1500hr rule is an arbitary number which was made up with no proof that it improves flight safety. In the Colgan Air accident which led to the implementation of the rule, the F/O had over 2,200 hours on the Dash already. And report states it was the captains failure to recover from the stall correctly. Neither were low hour cadet pilots and flight hours was not cited in the report as a contributing factor.

So no it is not substantive enough for me.

The most important aspect in flight safety is training. EASA realise this.

[tiredofstupidity]

Hard to receive quality training when the trainers also have no practical experience. I’m not sure if you are an experienced aviator or not, but if you are and you aren’t operating at a much higher level than you were when you first started, you are doing it wrong.

The reality is that the whole house of cards is built upon the fact that Boeing and Airbus have made it very very difficult to get yourself into serious trouble. When the technology backfires (Air France, Air Asia) it tends to go wrong. The only hope in those rare cases is that somebody has the smarts and experience to realize what’s going on. When they do you don’t hear about it because it’s an ASR, an item added to an RT or maybe an NTC.

Regulators, airlines and insurance companies are all comfortable with the risk. If they didn’t absolutely need 0 hour cadets in the seats they wouldn’t be there. It would be like it used to be and everyone would have experience. Cadets aren’t a superior way of crewing aircraft, they are cheap, necessary and an acceptable risk.

[Farman Biplane]

I forecast that the effect of hiring low/no hour pilots will not present until these initial pilots are now Captains and C+Trainers in the majority. This is still at least 10 years off for CX, but it is on the way.

It is then ,when an abnormal situation arises (eg. stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, major systems losses, not previously seen in canned training events, etc..), there will be some low quality responses and the precursors to disaster exist.

A high hours captain has a high hour experience of “normal ops” but very low exposure to “non-normal” situations if they haven’t previously been a pilot prior to starting as a cadet/SO. Ex-GA, commuter, small airline and military pilots have had significant exposure to events that are not canned and are not covered in the continuation training syllabus.

I predict that many other large airlines may reach this situation prior to CX. Let’s hope that the powers that be recognise and react to the threat in a timely manner. $afety is a priority just not necessarily No.1 priority at the moment.

[pilotchute]

Typical response yet with no substance.

Enoughisenough,

In your 3 month pprune career you have posted in one forum. You are the one without substance.

Btw, the 1500 hour rule is to stop regionals hiring 250 hour guys who work for food stamp wages. It was mostly to improve wages and conditions. Has anyone noticed US regionals actually pay a living wage now? Most will even pay for your hotel if you commute in now. No more sleeping in crew rooms!

[Freehills]

AF 447 happened 8 1/2 years ago, so it isn’t something that will occur in the future

(In response to F Biplane)

[CodyBlade]

250hrs?.Well some LCC in Asia have a 80hrs MPL program.

[ZFT]

Care to name them?

[Farman Biplane]

Point taken Freehills. Quite correct, AF was two low experience pilots and a resting Captain. CX is perhaps already there in the cruise phase. I was more thinking of the take off and landing phases which were traditionally the higher risk phases of flight.
Paradigm shift perhaps?

[EFIS Check]

For ZFT:
Please correct me if I am wrong but no need to look very far, in fact just across the road - KA is such an airline.

[Dragon Pacific]

KA now has fast track ex cadet 320/1 Captains who have just over 3500hrs total and are still in their 20s.
CX has RQ FOs who have a little over 1500hrs and will be flying with very low hour SOs.

[mngmt mole]

If anyone thinks an AF447 accident can't happen at CX, they haven't really paid attention to the inexorable overall decline in the experience levels. Thirty years ago, you needed either significant military jet experience, or 4-5 thousand hours with jet time mandatory to get hired at CX. Now, we daily have flights with inexperienced FO's, and a newbie SO who quite often doesn't know his emergency memory items. I'm sure the paying public would love to know that when they are resting during the night over the North Pacific or the Himalayas, the experience level up front is frequently 20% of what it was those 30 years ago. Further, when the relief FO goes to the toilet, you can have a brand new SO, perhaps 21 yrs old, sitting there with a high likelihood of failing to know what to do if certain emergencies occur. This is not speculation. It is fact based on documented experience. CX management have allowed the safety of this airline to diminish. Fact. And it is still declining.

[Flex88]

Care to name them?

I heard from one of them that KA gets some.. MPL can be had with approx 100 hrs (solo time not necessarily required) - straight into a shiny possibly wide body..
You feeling comfy yet ?

[Krone]

KA now has fast track ex cadet 320/1 Captains who have just over 3500hrs total

Big deal. Flying colours charter was 2500 jet to 757 command.

Its not the hours specifically but the exposure. Ex Military have in general, low hours vs years of service. But not many bunks on an F18.

Not many bunks inKA. Its hard graft, 35 sector months. So why should a 3500 hour guy not have a command?

Its not like they need global experience. KA is a niche. Once mastered , is fairly routing. And that again is a threat .

[PanZa-Lead]

From the fleet office. There has been a pilot leaving Cathay every day for the last two months and the spike has the management concerned. Especially as Qantas and Virgin recruiters arrive in HK next month

[Scoreboard]

Hehe no surprise there....if u read the missive that managment put out stating our attrition rate was with some arbitary normal levels last year ....they stopped their numbers up till october or september if i remember....and since october everyone knows it aint be pretty.....

Once writing on the wall that this aint an airline to stay at....it takes a while for resignations to gather steam....this aint an interview and resign next week type of career....it takes planning, effort on all parties for the next recruitment. Once this snowball starts rolling if have a spike now......you just starting to peek over the hill when it just rushes out of control. Good job cx management.

[Scoreboard]

mngmt mole

Who can forget about the SO TCAS event? Just sat there didnt they?...not that its the SO fault....you just got that sort of exp with little idea that flying is inherently godamn dangerous...fat dumb happy flying shiny jet with piss poor managment gutted training.

[broadband circuit]

From the fleet office. There has been a pilot leaving Cathay every day for the last two months and the spike has the management concerned

A friend on the Boeing recently had his fleet forum, and they have a new format where one of the senior grown ups (GMF/DFO/COO) comes to chat to the boys & girls. Lots of nice words about wanting to make CX a place that people choose to come to work, beneficial rostering practices, etc etc etc.

His words were "it smacked of desperation"

[mngmt mole]

The truth of the new fleet forum format is one of deception. The managers know they are feeding those involved a pile of bull :mad:. I almost (almost) feel sorry for them, as they know that every one of us listening realises how pathetic and pointless it all is. I sat through this a couple of weeks ago. It would be funny if it wasn't so desperate and futile. It's too late. Most of the junior pilots I am flying with are actively looking for their next job. Most have either already applied, interviewed or are awaiting course dates. My FO earlier this week told me he was leaving, that his wife was already back home and that he was done with CX. The salient comment from him was this; he said nothing they told him now would make any difference. He would never trust them to be honourable, and just assumed every claim or promise was a lie. He's seen enough, and it had convinced him that CX was not worth the investment of his career, or his family's future. That was a quote. CX management have accomplished the destruction of not only an airline, but a culture. That is unforgivable.

[cxorcist]

I was literally arguing with one of our “managers” as he was feeding their latest batch of lies to the rank and file at fleet forum. Those guys working on the third floor are shameless promoters of CX deceit and the destruction of a once great airline from the inside out. They all go into it to “make things better” and end up becoming part of the problem. They know it, and we know it. That’s why NOBODY decent is putting their hands up for these jobs anymore, just FOs and pathetic self servers. I’d quit before I’d take one of those jobs.

[mngmt mole]

The reality is that not a single pilot in this airline has any illusions as to the lies they are being fed. Our managers have no credibility. They are representing a despotic and failed regime, and the pilots they purport to manage have already concluded that their best interests for a career lie elsewhere. Nothing will change the course of that outcome. It's already too late. It's probably also already too late for any of our managers to preserve their dignity.

[BusyB]

Its a sad state when none of the managers have the self-integrity and pride to resign rather than blatantly lie to their pilots.:confused:

[Air Profit]

Resign? None of them have that much integrity. How about they just at least stop lying to the pilots? Let AT come in and do it herself.

[VforVENDETTA]

Fleet forum has always been a waste of time and a joke not worth laughing at. Third floor managers have always been clueless (except for a couple) as a result of never having worked for a real airline before this place. All RAF, RAAF, CAF, or any other airforce or some small shop airline nobody ever heard of. None of them know what a real airline runs like at the FOP level. None of them can be trusted. Director of flight ops isn't even a pilot let alone an ex-cx pilot so where do you even begin about the lack of knowledge and qualification for the job of leading troops whose jobs you never have performed and aren't capable of doing. (The incompetent NR not to be left out, I'm not just picking on the current DFO.) They all lie to your face. They always have. The core culture of this place is the culture of lie. I realized this over a decade ago and decided not to give a sh!t and keep my sanity. Why? My compensation package.

I put up with the fact that my seniority means nothing to them. (I was lied to about this issue at my interview). Direct entry captains hired into the left seat after my date of hire. It's always nice to fly with a junior captain, not. Inability to bid and hold my preferred fleet according to my seniority. No absolute respect for seniority = No good will on my part on any issue.

I accepted the fact that I will not receive training at this place and will have to survive on my knowledge and skills I already had which I had to keep sharp despite what cx called training and standardization (these things don't exist here). This meant I would not enjoy doing my job like as I once had before.

Or that my contract was not to be respected or worth the paper it's printed on except to point at when it suits cx.

Inability to request and receive my preferred roster according to my seniority and without incompetent human molestation due to cx insisting to do this process like it's still the 50's despite the fact that other airlines having been using such computerized systems providing this valuable lifestyle flexibility to their crews while at the same time have been saving a lot of money on manning levels... for the last 20 years!

I decided over a decade ago I’d stay because of my compensation package. I’m after all a mercenary. Like many others, here for the compensation. Hoping I could do better for myself and my loved ones, than I could back home. Apart from the regular sight of cx aircraft at my home airport with the old paint scheme, I hardly knew anything about cx. Like many others I grew up with a hunger about all things aviation and aerospace. Any airline peaked my interest and still does. I liked the shiny story of cx and decided that and the shiny package they offered at the time was worth coming here.

Any real pride, respect, loyalty to cx I brought with me was quickly chipped away. What was left of my expectations was the compensation package. But when it was announced that was to be reduced, then there’s nothing left of value to me at this place. There’s no price you can put on pride, loyalty, trust which result in good will. I can’t remember when was the last time I cared at all about fuel savings or other cost cutting measures. I simply don’t care. I haven’t given a sh!t all these years because my seniority has not been respected as mentioned above. All the money saved by pissing all over my seniority and many many others like me will never amount to what it has cost in lack of good will and it will continue to do so. Tell me to leave if I don’t like it. Fine. But that will not fix the problem of lack of good will. The one replacing me will quickly be just like me. It’s the best definition of stupidity to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.

Cx either has to pay more than others or be a more fulfilling enjoyable place to work at. Well, this is a sh!tty place to work at, it hasn’t kept up with pay and benefits of other airlines hiring and on top of that they want to take away from already lacking pay and benefits. They think people are working here because of any other reason than money. It’s sad and laughable at the same time. The only ones acting happy and fulfilled are the ones who come from places with little to no prospect of a better job so they fool themselves in believing they’re happy. What they really are is desperate and even they don’t have loyalty, good will and pride in cx. They just don’t have any other choice at the moment.

Time to what? Win? Nope. It’s time to leave. If you stay here, you lose.

[crwkunt roll]

That’s why NOBODY decent is putting their hands up for these jobs anymore, just FOs and pathetic self servers. I’d quit before I’d take one of those jobs.
If anybody decent did put up their hand, they’d be shot down in a flash anyway.

[BlunderBus]

Well i just flew with 3 other crew and the MOST experienced ..the second in command..had never flown anything until 4 years ago! The other 2 had 18 months (FO) the second officer a month on the line....all hired straight off the street. NONE of them had hand flown any aircraft above 5000’
Good luck strapping in behind that lot. Technology had better take decision making and airmanship out of the equation soon because it will become a necessity.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Landed from SYD a few days ago. Both of my crew going to Qantas. One of them was told by his interviewer that upwards of 100+ CX FO's have applied and/or interviewed, with more applications arriving by the week. Both VS and Jetstar are also making a big push for any Oz legal pilots. Bye bye CX, you have managed to become the training arm of our competitors. Another EPIC management own-goal.

[Captain Dart]

A very interesting thread on the AOA forum has been updated regarding resignation numbers, training replacements, and the costs thereof. They might have to revisit their ‘benchmarking’.

[Trafalgar]

Regarding pilots leaving for Qantas. I have heard from a good source that the number is well over a 100 and climbing each week. I predict that by the end of this year, there will be almost no Ozzies, Yanks or Europeans left at CX. The exodus is only just building up steam. It's always the majority of the iceberg just below the surface that results in the sinking of the ship. Stare down into the water AT, and you will see a looming mass that is about to send you to the bottom.

[betpump5]

I predict that by the end of this year, there will be almost no Ozzies left at CX

Every cloud..

[Start Fore]

Extremely well said, ALL of the above.

[mngmt mole]

Regarding them ‘revisiting’ anything. You only do that you when you have integrity and intellectual honesty. When you are arrogant, myopic and blind....you continue on until the ship has run aground....with no chance of redemption. CX management as exists today.

[Krone]

Meanwhile, over at the A330 fleet, multiple captains are accepting their A350 upgrades. Seemingly, its fine to support a training ban if its directed at new trainers, but not if its a new upgrade for the incumbents. Couldn't make it up could we !

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Krone what would you have them do? Not turn up on their first day of 350 ground school. It's on the roster, not a voluntary decision

[BlunderBus]

How long have they been promising bases? 10 years?
I recently had to listen to some ridiculous :mad: about the computer based rostering system being designed to generate more days off ! In the same breath they’re trying to impose 92 hours a month .. up from 84 and 1000 flight hours.
Really? Why waste your breath? The long history of deceit here speaks for itself.

[Trafalgar]

That unfortunately is the cancer at the 'dark' heart of this airline: an immoral and venal management. There is no 'leader' at CX. Only greed and avarice. It is bringing the airline down, and those who work for her. The smart ones are diligently planning their exit.

[Arfur Dent]

Cathay has never experienced anything more than a trickle of resignations so if it's true that pilots are leaving in hundreds its new ground for our Managers to deal with. They can't fly the aircraft themselves ( far too clever for that) and Tyler always used to threaten wet leasing but, if the flight deck seats cannot be filled, the new shiny jets will be parked and the Press will get hold of it. Then the shareholders. Pull up a chair - this could be fun......

[betpump5]

if it's true that pilots are leaving in hundreds

Well if you believe Trafs (many) stories, it sounds more like a thousand are leaving.

[Farman Biplane]

Krone, I assume you turned up for your last recurrent TRAINING sim?
Where do we draw the line dude?

[Air Profit]

betpump. Ultimately I think that in actual fact there WILL be thousands leaving, and the process is just now gathering steam. The rest of the world is desperate for pilots, and CX management seem to the be the only ones who don't get it. And it's not all about the "money" (joke), and especially not about their obsession with seeing us caring about the "shiny jet syndrome". It's about being back home, having a life, fresh air, a place to raise and support a family while not living in a shoe box. CX provides NO answer to any of that, and AT came out last week and basically said they feel they are offering a GREAT package (you can't make that :mad: up!). So, over the next few years, I do believe that the numbers will break 1000, and a lot sooner than anyone, especially our brilliant management, think.

[Krone]

Krone, I assume you turned up for your last recurrent TRAINING sim?

Yes I did. But you are missing the point . The recurrent is not a promotion for me.
A pilot moving "up" from A330 to A350 is . I'm not one of the many lambasting those who want to go to training, but then taking advantage of those who are going to train me onto the A350. And readily accepting it, with open arms.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

I think you are missing the point. When we were on the 400 the 800 arrived and we were rostered IPT and sims to fly it. We became dual qualified. It was not a promotion.

The 350, according to our Lords and Masters, is just a modern 330. In the same way, we get rostered to fly it. It is not a choice. This is not a promotion but a slow migration to the 350 as the 330 is on its way out.

Do you really think we can sit around and not fly the 350? Don’t be an idiot!

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Krone at some point in your career a new type or variant will arrive, if you are on the 777 then that will be the 777X. Cant wait to hear about the 1 guy who doesn't show up for IPT and sim sessions

[stoneangel]

Hi Guys,

I have been reading this topic, though Im not a CX pilot.
I have around 1000h of sep, and applied as SO. To be honest, not sure if I will be intending the interview, not because I have read comments here or there, just because being a cruise pilot is not so interesting for me. I want to touch the controls, take off and land., and I am willing to fly CS23 for example, to get some unforgetable experience before flying long haul.

anyway, I saw that some of you stated that hundreds of CX pilots would leave. But one question came through my mind : where are they going to ?! a better airline ?
Im not saying that CX is the best, but still is a major airline, so why not ending the career there ?

With a heavy jet experience, where those pilots wish to go ? corporate ?

That's a real question and as I haven't start a career in public transport, I am quite surprised to read this.

Thank guys for your answers, and wish you all the best.

english 2nd language.

[Air Profit]

Stoneangel. A fair question that you ask. It is hard to understand the depth of frustration, misery and utter hopeless despair that most pilots at CX feel. Years of outright abuse, deceit and intimidation have convinced most of us that we are better off nearly anywhere else. It would be hard enough to live in HK with a caring, thoughtful employer. With the management we have at CX, it becomes a futile and miserable experience. I know from your perspective you may find it hard to understand why we feel this way, but please know that if you choose to come here, you will quickly understand everything I have just told you. Save yourself (and family if you have) the misery and find a better opportunity nearer to your home. The days of CX being an airline of choice are long gone. There is nothing here for anyone.

[Shep69]

stoneangel

Somewhere they'll hopefully be happy.

The place is not what it once was. I guess it COULD be but that would require a major philosophy shift that's IMHO very unlikely to happen.

The present strategy IMHO is to look for indigenous home grown apprentice and other nation 'refugee' pilots who are willing to work cheap and without sustainable housing/pay and who don't have options elsewhere. Stringing them along at the 'just below quitting' level and/or with promises that will never happen. Not unlike some types of regionals; although regionals are having issues with manning in many parts of the world. The unique thing about HKG is its very high cost of living and I believe the company is trying to base there (where they can wield an 'impose at will' type of contract without recourse or negotiation that's required in other parts of the world) without paying what would result in a decent standard of living. Rather than explore win-wins of basing in cheaper locations (but which have the added baggage of real laws and required negotiations).

IF one is looking at many years ahead of them in the airline biz, IMHO there are much better opportunities elsewhere due chiseling conditions, division, and a generally confrontational style of management with no indication of abating (and NO want to embrace teamwork and win-win solutions). If one is looking to make things OK for a few years and ride things out before retiring or going to a 'fun' job that's more of a hobby in retirement (or use it as a training ground for other opportunities) this place is probably OK.

The major issue is everything in the airline industry is seniority based and you 'lose' time if you stay somewhere that isn't panning out--for whatever reason.

Best of luck to 'ya and do speak personally with some folks in the rank and file who work here to get their take.

[stoneangel]

Thanks guys for your inputs.
I do understand what you mean, not at your level, but I see.
Although, I think it is like this in many airlines, or let's say, more and more in this society.
But true, now, I balance pros and cons carefully, and I am not ready to go so far and being really disappointed. (yeah I do have a young family with me). Sure it's not what I pictured, from the outside, CX seems the best for a wannabe. But actually after talking to others wannabes, we are more and more to read carefully about T's /Cs.
How would you decribe the management : authoritative ? In europe I know some management in Low cost act this way : fear culture. Just, I could not imagine that it would reach Majors now.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Put it this way, they have a sickness monitoring programme that flags you if you trigger certain levels of sickness. It is basically intimidation, if you let it be so. It claims it is interested in your health but it just ends up making some pilots fly when they shouldn’t be for fear of entering the dreaded stages of the programme.

A good majority don’t give a toss but some fear it. Some clerk decides what is happening to you regarding internal disciplinary actions even though you may well have medical certificates stating you are unfit to fly and it could possibly be illegal to excercise the privileges of your license. You could be summarily dismissed if you have simply taken an over the counter medicine to relieve a simple head cold and some traces of certain medications are found in your system.

The rostering system is simply draconian. Some attempt to implement a system from Jeppesen is being made, however clearly internal sabotage from the incumbent rostering department is occurring. The rosters are not workable or sustainable. Management would rather keep tight control rather than give pilots choice and roster stability. The company cancelled rostering practices and introduced their own system which is all at the company behest with virtually no seniority bidding.

Certain types of aircraft have appalling rosters and you have no say if you want to change aircraft types.

Let alone the cost of living and constant attacks on your conditions to line the pockets of managers whom know nothing about aviation.

[Trafalgar]

The only real sickness is evident in our management ranks. Mental and moral.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Never a truer word Cyril.

[Captain Dart]

Also, as I have written many times, Hong Kong's airspace is crimped by the mainland Chinese. Nothing has changed in the near 20 years since the new airport has been open. It doesn't matter how many runways they build at HKIA; one CB miles away shuts the joint down for hours. Each summer gets crazier and crazier. Even in good weather, delays are rife. Intelligent travellers are avoiding using HKG as a hub for connections.

Because of this and other factors, expansion will eventually stop, and CX and your career will be going nowhere.

[mothy1583]

F/Os turning down Command training in preference for becoming S/Os with QF pretty much sums it up.

Once you have pushed people to the point of looking around at what else is available, then you are dealing with someone who has made up their mind to leave. Even if management offer to back off and leave the status quo as it stands, most of the affected will still leave and a large improvement to current Ts & Cs will be needed to reverse the trajectory that has been gathering impetus.

[mngmt mole]

....and that won't happen, as this management has decided to let the place burn. Only those that leave will attain a satisfied career. Those that stay will bitterly regret it. Our management is broken, without purpose and wallowing in incompetence.

[Arfur Dent]

If you join now:-
You can never buy a house
You can never afford to rent a decent family home
You can never afford a decent School for your kids
You can never afford kids
You can never afford a car

Cathay is not a "Legacy Carrier" - it's like Easyjet but everyone's living in Central London or Tokyo.

Don't join Cathay - you'll regret it.

(Never thought I'd say that - well done Swires!)

[Captain Dart]

But...but...you get to fly a Big Shiny Jet!

[Tea time]

The other thing that everyone else seems to have forgotten is the shocking levels of air pollution which is not good for your health
I thought that it may improve but I haven’t seen an signs of that happening

[Nil further]

As an ex Hong Kong resident I read this forum with great interest .

Isn’t it the case that anyone who joined CX or remained there after the 49 ers debacle knows exactly the deal and the level of treatment they can/could expect from CX management .

Seems to me they made it pretty clear to you all what the deal is ? No ?

[Dragon69]

So true, they made it very clear we are all on a 3 months contract!

[raven11]

NilFurther,

You’re right. As one of those who has been here since the 49er disgrace, the writing on the wall should have been clear. The mistake we made was assuming that the last attack on the pilots, in this case the 49ers, was the last attack. We were naive to make that assumption. Since the early 1990’s the company has viewed the pilots’ pay and conditions as a gift that keeps on giving. Every bit of negative economic news would be used by management to justify a fresh wave of reductions to pay, benefits, and working conditions. This happened time and time again.

So you’re right, we should have seen this coming...we were stupid to assume they would suddenly stop or change their behavior without a push back.

That said, a tipping point has been reached. The effect of the training ban, and extreme resignation rate among pilots, has reached critical mass. This turn of events must be a bitter pill for management to swallow. Imagine that....to finally understand that you cannot run an airline without pilots....

[Nullaman]

It takes a maximum of 3 months for a pilot to leave.

It can take 6-9months to recruit and train the replacement assuming no hiccups.
With a normal attrition rate(retirements/licence loss/moving on to pastures new etc) I am sure a cost is allowed for there.

Given that the attrition rate/replacement training requirements are now significantly higher I wonder what the true retraining costs are?

Numero Crunchero care to comment?

There is a message there somewhere

[bored]

Yes I did. But you are missing the point . The recurrent is not a promotion for me.
A pilot moving "up" from A330 to A350 is . I'm not one of the many lambasting those who want to go to training, but then taking advantage of those who are going to train me onto the A350. And readily accepting it, with open arms.

Upgrade?
Did I do an 'upgrade' when the A330 was added to my initial A340 rating? Or maybe it was an upgrade when I did the A340-600 differences course?
When I lost the A340 on my licence due lack of recency, was that a downgrade? Now that I have A330/A350 on my licence is that an upgrade again?
For licensing purposes, they're the same types.....you goose, and as somebody previously pointed out, the course(s) is(were) rostered without requesting it......unlike a training position.

[raven11]

Curtain.

Was I stupid to hope that things would get better? Yes ...I said that in my post. Does reminding me of my stupidly elevate the debate? Unless I miss my guess you’ve been here a long while too. How then are you absolved from NilFurther’s implication?

NilFurter was suggesting that based on the Company’s past behavior it should have been clear to all of us what “deal” was. His implication being that we should have either done something a long time ago, seeked employment elsewhere, or acquiess.

I thought that perhaps there was another option: To engage and hope that good sense would prevail. Silly me.

[Arfur Dent]

You're not stupid, Raven. In the mid 80's and early 90's pilots were regarded as very much part of the Management Class. Able and willing to save fuel, fly to the best of our ability and make Company minded suggestions to improve the Operation on an almost daily basis.
We were included and consulted because we were the sharp end of the Airline and 'they' were the back room business experts who sorted all the finance, politics, route structure etc etc. Bloody good team game and we were all paid pretty well for upping sticks and moving to a very culturally different part of the world. It was exciting and we felt welcomed into a very elite Club.
Somebody decided to change all that and we have arrived at the current shambles. What a powerful will the person responsible for all of this must have. It must be the Swire Family because otherwise they would have stopped it.
Their train set I guess but it's just about to derail and Merlin may just be the driver at the time. How appropriate.

[raven11]

Curtain...

A well written post...except the blissfully ignorant part.

Our collective endurance has finally reached its limit. The HPE report on the AOA website is an interesting read that speaks to the depth of frustration and mistrust. It would seem that the future can only proceed in one of two directions.

[mccauleyprop]

raven11

The 1500hr rule is an arbitary number which was made up with no proof that it improves flight safety. In the Colgan Air accident which led to the implementation of the rule, the F/O had over 2,200 hours on the Dash already. And report states it was the captains failure to recover from the stall correctly. Neither were low hour cadet pilots and flight hours was not cited in the report as a contributing factor.

So no it is not substantive enough for me.

The most important aspect in flight safety is training. EASA realise this.

You do realize that she retracted the flaps during the stall, right?

[mngmt mole]

A concise description. CX management decided to denigrate and devalue the most dedicated staff they possessed. To their eternal shame. They deserve what is coming.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

I hear that every week, but what is actually coming

[mngmt mole]

Decades of experience disappearing weekly. If that isnt profound then nothing will grab your attention. CX is finished as an airline that represents experience and excellence.

[pilotasaurus]

Watching pilots who've given decades of their life being allowed to walk out the door is gut wrenching. Cathay's best assets, experienced aviators and next generation of captains at this company for decades walking away without even being asked to stay is quite incredulous and incredibly saddening.

[Arfur Dent]

AT is a disgrace and should/will be fired.
Watching all this go on and doing essentially nothing is bloody pathetic!
Have some guts Anna and resign before you're shown the door. Oh and when you leave - turn the lights off - there's a dear………

[missingblade]

pilotasaurus

Its worse seeing them stay on as " senior sim instructors" on FO salaries doing PC's and undermining our contract negotiations in the process. Or even worse - signing over to local terms to stay on after reaching their contracted retirement age of 55...

Not playing the blame game here- between Cx and their individual financial circumstances who can say who's to blame...

Just saying.