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Really Top Guys Leaving

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Really Top Guys Leaving

Old 15th Feb 2018, 00:31
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,135
Really Top Guys Leaving

In the past ( 20 years ago) the holes left by REALLY good guys leaving were filled by up and coming REALLY good guys.
Not sure.
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 02:02
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 1st Floor
Age: 30
Posts: 93
What’s your point, please spit it out.
Aircraft accidents are at an all time low. Training has adapted to the management roll a pilot performs, rather than the manual skills of yesteryear.

The crm free world of the 70s and 80s is long past, where the authoritarian captain was boss . Period.

Think KLM Tenerife .
Krone is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 02:49
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 642

Krone is one of the third floor Talking Heads puking out the daily talking points.. This will not end well - history proves.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 04:53
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: london
Posts: 45
There are indeed top guys leaving at the moment. People in their 40s.
FUANNA is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 05:42
  #5 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,852
AND Girls.
ACMS is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 13:01
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
It's a simple calculation. When I joined, CX attracted and hired thousands of hours a year of experience. Now, they are losing thousands of hours a year in experience. You cannot have the same outcome with those two completely divergent facts. Time will prove this era as the cause of tragedy. Watch and wait.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:01
  #7 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 41
Plenty of airlines around the world use cadet recruitment programs. Easyjet etc.
Nil accidents. You are not the sky gods you think you are.

And before you say your flying is more difficult... it ain't.
enoughisenough_ is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:05
  #8 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,243
You must be management
pilotchute is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:07
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 41
Typical response yet with no substance.
enoughisenough_ is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 19:42
  #10 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513

Not in the USA. As a result of a rash of accidents the FAA banned cadet programs, and other bottom-of-the-barrel hiring policies, that put a 150 hour pilot directly into the right seat of a commercial jet. The practice of hiring low hour commercial pilots as co-pilots in a commercial airline has been outlawed. Some cadet programs exist, but a minimum hour requirement is mandated before a cadet hire can qualify as a co-pilot in commercial jet operations....and it’s not 150 hours.

Altough previously first officers were required to have only a commercial pilot certificate, which required 150 hours, the new FAA rule requires first officers to hold an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate, requiring 1,500 hours total time as a pilot.

More recently, as regional airlines struggled to recruit experienced co-pilots, the FAA eased up a bit by allowing military pilots with a minimum of 500 hours of flying experience to become commercial co-pilots...but a minimum of 1,500 hours is required for non-military pilots.

All this is easily googled...so take a break from your other less pressing office duties and search for yourself.

After all, common sense should tell you that experience is a key metric when determining competence in any profession...especially for one where safety is the highest priority.

Is that substantive enough for you?
raven11 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:37
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,270
Cathay Pacific. Same as any other job really. The Halcyon days are long gone. Genuinely shameful
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2018, 22:43
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bouvet Island
Posts: 110

I think you mean 250 hours for a CPL for fixed wing, 150 for rotorcraft
plainpilot11 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 00:40
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 19

Not really - is there any evidence that the 1500 limit has increased safety in the US vs countries that don’t have it?

It was common sense that bad air caused malaria.
Freehills is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 01:42
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513

“Common sense that bad air caused malaria.”?

No, that’s not common sense...that’s stupidly.

You then try to make a snarky point by asking for any evidence that the 1500 limit has increased safety? I can’t provide that evidence.
However, I’ll side with common sense and the FAA; unless of course you can provide any evidence that it hasn’t improved safety. Can you?

In the mean time, ask yourself why it costs more to recruit and hire experienced pilots...and why you and every other pilot track their flying hours in a personal logbook?
raven11 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 02:39
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
Raven, trying to argue with the irrational is....well, irrational. (oh, and enoughisenough is a CX cubicle dweller, where the facts and common sense are subsumed by the overwhelming desire to improve ones bonus. Again, not worth even responding to. They are toxic, every single one of the 'swine').
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 03:44
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 19
My point is 1500 is completely arbitrary. The standard number of hours of practice that is needed to become an expert (eg a soloist musician) is generally held to be 10,000

That would make much more sense at least there is some science behind it
Freehills is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 03:59
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 41

The 1500hr rule is an arbitary number which was made up with no proof that it improves flight safety. In the Colgan Air accident which led to the implementation of the rule, the F/O had over 2,200 hours on the Dash already. And report states it was the captains failure to recover from the stall correctly. Neither were low hour cadet pilots and flight hours was not cited in the report as a contributing factor.

So no it is not substantive enough for me.

The most important aspect in flight safety is training. EASA realise this.
enoughisenough_ is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 04:14
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 15
Hard to receive quality training when the trainers also have no practical experience. I’m not sure if you are an experienced aviator or not, but if you are and you aren’t operating at a much higher level than you were when you first started, you are doing it wrong.

The reality is that the whole house of cards is built upon the fact that Boeing and Airbus have made it very very difficult to get yourself into serious trouble. When the technology backfires (Air France, Air Asia) it tends to go wrong. The only hope in those rare cases is that somebody has the smarts and experience to realize what’s going on. When they do you don’t hear about it because it’s an ASR, an item added to an RT or maybe an NTC.

Regulators, airlines and insurance companies are all comfortable with the risk. If they didn’t absolutely need 0 hour cadets in the seats they wouldn’t be there. It would be like it used to be and everyone would have experience. Cadets aren’t a superior way of crewing aircraft, they are cheap, necessary and an acceptable risk.
tiredofstupidity is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 04:47
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 359
I forecast that the effect of hiring low/no hour pilots will not present until these initial pilots are now Captains and C+Trainers in the majority. This is still at least 10 years off for CX, but it is on the way.

It is then ,when an abnormal situation arises (eg. stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, major systems losses, not previously seen in canned training events, etc..), there will be some low quality responses and the precursors to disaster exist.

A high hours captain has a high hour experience of “normal ops” but very low exposure to “non-normal” situations if they haven’t previously been a pilot prior to starting as a cadet/SO. Ex-GA, commuter, small airline and military pilots have had significant exposure to events that are not canned and are not covered in the continuation training syllabus.

I predict that many other large airlines may reach this situation prior to CX. Let’s hope that the powers that be recognise and react to the threat in a timely manner. $afety is a priority just not necessarily No.1 priority at the moment.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2018, 07:00
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by enoughisenough_ View Post
Typical response yet with no substance.

In your 3 month PPRuNe career you have posted in one forum. You are the one without substance.

Btw, the 1500 hour rule is to stop regionals hiring 250 hour guys who work for food stamp wages. It was mostly to improve wages and conditions. Has anyone noticed US regionals actually pay a living wage now? Most will even pay for your hotel if you commute in now. No more sleeping in crew rooms!
pilotchute is offline  

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