Airservices and Civil Air

[Tacolote]

Agreement Reached

Airservices and Civil Air fianlised the drafting process for the new Certified Agreement which will be in place for the next 3 years.

For those who tried to claim it was all about pay; I understand that 11.27% was the final figure over three years. Less than the original offer from Airservices. Civil Air traded off the payrises to retain and improve conditions for its members.:eek:

No extra Leave has yet been agreed to, but a Fatigue Management Working Group will be established to look at that, general rostering and fatigue issues.

The affected employees will vote in 2 weeks time to accept or reject the deal.

Taco.

PS still no recognition from the executive that we are worth what we get or understanding that 27% of our wage is for the ugly shiftwork that we do. Bean Counters running the joint - what would you expect.:rolleyes:

[ferris]

You get what you settle for.

Good result for management.

[Four Seven Eleven]

Ferris
You get what you settle for.

And you 'settle' for what you think is best and achievable.

Let's analyse what we've 'settled' for:

1) No huge pay increases. Yes, I would have liked a 40% pay increase, and for Airservices to buy my house when I want to sell - but we can't all be the CEO, can we? :D (And I suppose an Order of Australia is out of the question too!!) :D :D :D

2) Parity: The issue of recent recruits doing Full Performance Controller (FPC) jobs, holding FPC qualifications, but not being paid as FPCs - purely because of their recruitment date - will be fixed. More 'senior' controllers put the greater good above personal interests. I am willing to forego a certain percentage of my salary to avoid 'shafting' my colleagues.

3) No industrial action: The threat of industrial action, while it was required to show Airservices that the controllers are resolute in their determination to achieve an outcome was not something that anyone did lightly. The fact that no action (beyond stop work meetings) was necessary is a relief to everybody - not least the controllers themselves.

4) It's over: After nearly 18 months of being stuffed around by an intransigent employer, with a negotiating team whose every move seemed designed to avoid an agreement, we at least can look forward to a few years of stability.

But it's not quite over, however. Now is the time for Civil Air to start preparing for the next EBA. We can ill afford to have one out of every three years taken up by the sort of bickering and backbiting that happened in this case.

The general feeling of most of my colleagues is that we are not looking for huge increases in pay and conditions. We just want to maintain what we have, not lose out with cost of living increases and ensure that safety issues like fatigue, staffing numbers etc. are addressed.

Yes, we may have 'settled', but that seems to be the best we could expect. I will be voting to accept it.

[divingduck]

Now now Ferris...be nice.

The guys and gals have settled in the best interests of all the members. Not everyone can just get up and b*gger off overseas.

18 months of intransigence has now been settled and not everyone got what they wanted...that's life.

well done to the Civilair team for finally getting this done without major disruptions.

[ferris]

The bosses squander vast sums of taxpayers money.
The controllers get the reward- years of pathetic penny-pinching, lies, underhandedness, public attacks.
The bosses do an ordinary job- even by beauracratic standards- and walk off with huge golden handshakes, gongs etc.
The controllers get a slap in the face eba (funding the redress of past industrial inequities/mistakes out of their own payrises!!!!).


ATNS in Sth Africa recently offered MASSIVE pay increases to stem the flood of departures (ask 'em how much). It's only a matter of realising where the power lies. No controllers, no ASA.

Yep, you get what you settle for.

[No Further Requirements]

Hi all. What about the lower wages all round for new controllers? Is a new pay scale still on the cards for them or does the new agreement mean new recruits will be on the same wage scale as the current employees? Cheers,

NFR.

[T]

Old Chinese saying, "Price is what the market will bear"

[Tacolote]

NFR

The entry point is the same, about $15K better off than the original offer, new ATCs will get paid as FPC when they reach that level. A new Senior Controller level will be introduced at the top end, above FPC but below Team Leader, this will have entry requirements, but thats all up to the restructure working group. :confused: No existing staff will be adversely affected by teh SC creation.

The problem isn't solved, just moved till about 8 years down the track, but there should be three agreements (including this one)between now and then.:mad:

Taco

[blind freddy]

I for one think that Civil Air has done us no favours in this EBA negotiation.

Fair enough we had to go softly to start, but after 18 months surely we could of done better.

I for one am irate we didn't have some serious industrial action.
So what if we got our bargaining period terminated? We would have had to go to arbitration, and I personally believe that we would have faired no worse than what we have now.

In fact it probably would have been all long over by now.

We have played into Airservises hand with all this delay. They have got the 18 month wage freeze they wanted. We are paying for the new FPCs (why should we?) I believe they deserve the pay parity, but that is AsA problem, not ours!
So now we get 1.77% on certification, and 0.4% for Christmas. (Don't for a minute believe the two parties will reach agreement on the restructure.)
Our next decent pay rise is 2% in another 12 months!!

I believe we have settled for less than we could have acheived, and I will be voting NO!

P.S. Ask your delegate if they enjoyed Cancun, while we were at stop work meetings:mad:

[divingduck]

select rant button

Well blind freddo...you too could have taken in the heady delights of Cancun if you had chosen to.

Not for me this year...that time of year its a bit humid I heard :)

Stupidly IFATCA planned this ever so slightly before the proposed actions but I'm sure they could have put it off for you had you asked them to.

Our reps (and other controllers) go to these conferences for a reason....ask about them or go yourself, don't whine about others going.

ps they are an excellent way to write off a bit of hard earned against the tax monster.

as for the "we are paying for the new fpc's (why should we)" hmmm nothing like a bit of good old self centredness (if that's a word) after bleating that you would like to have seen industrial action....i suppose that you would have expected those guys/gals that you can't see your way clear to support to support your position?

where are you from? Melbourne???

deselect rant button

[missy]

Listen up. This is NOT the place to have a debate about this issue. Any debate should occur at the briefings to be held and the follow-up Civil Air meetings.

[ferris]

Blind Freddy- you are the worst sort of agitator. Don't blame the union for what goes on- the union does what it's membership tells it to. If you feel so strongly, go to meetings, organise support, move motions- maybe even take an active role. Don't bag the guys who do all that stuff.
YOU and your colleagues, ARE THE UNION.

[Gadget]

Blind Freddy

Vote no! Put your hand up for election and fill your boots!! If you think you could have got a better deal then offer your services - we need legends like yourself.
FYI there was no stopwork whilst IFATCA was on. FYI delegates are allowed to have ARL as well as yourself.
Now I fully suspect that your not actually a line controller - I would guess that your probably not even a union member. We could have all pulled the pin but people like yourself would have been back at work within the hour.
If you wish to criticise send an email to your delegate or the com. I'm sure they will give you a considered response. Don't go hiding behind anonymity.

[turnleft]

You get what you settle for, is right.

I am not prepared to settle for it.

It is still up to a majority vote.

I am voting NO

[blind freddy]

diving duck,
When I said "why should we pay for the FPCs" , I meant that I believe they are entitled to the FPC ( and back pay for that matter) but NOT by all of us taking a pay reduction. I believe that the new FPC should get their pay, and we still get our full 2% increment. AsA started this disparity, and it should be them that pay for their exploitation of the FPCs, not us. It like Asa saying we made a mistake and now you have to pay for it.

With regard to our stop work meetings, a lot of the NE was already OS, I think our timing was off in that regard, and was unfair for the people left behind to handle it ( which they did admirably). And I know what goes on at the IFATCA pissups!


B]I still believe we had a lot of industrial muscle which we did not flex nearly enough. I have voiced my opinion in other forums, and with my delegate, but the union as a whole decided against it. I abide by the decision.[/B]


Missy,
I believe anything that gets people discussing a topic and thinking about things before a divisional meeting is beneficial, and may get people actually to go to the meetings!
I will be at the meeting as always.

Ferris,
I have been heavily involved in and with the union since I joined ATC many years ago. I think a lot of good people do good work.


Gadget,
way off the mark! I am an active line controller, and would be the first to walk off the job!!

I hope you all enjoyed your outpouring of emotions, and will continue to think about your future with our illustrious employer.

See you at the meeting!!!

(Not the Melbourne one!)

[ferris]

For those who think 2% is OK.
Seth Efricans are in discussions with their provider (ATNS) at the moment, and are talking about a 75% increase.

Yes, that's right, a SEVENTY-FIVE percent increase. You may want to think about locking yourself into a low pay agreement for 3 years when the next few years will see massive controller shortages worldwide.

[Baileys]

Put it in perspective. How much do they get paid now?

I agree with your sentiments on a worldwide shortage of ATC's. There is nothing stopping those who want to seek work O/S from doing so. If people are that desperate for more and more money then we all know where to go to get paid a bit more than the average Aussie ATC. You do lose the lifestyle and put a bit of distance between yourself and family and friends though. If you (and your wife and kids if applicable) can deal with it all and value the mighty dollar so much then go for it. Working O/S would be a great experience.

Myself, I'll be voting Yes. IMHO I live in the greatest place in the world and I'm happy to accept the CA on offer. Don't get me wrong, if they offered more $$$ I would take it but you have to negotiate to a reasonable position for everyone. Some issues which were very important to the majority have been resolved. I thank the Civilair Negotiating Comittee for their hard work. I believe we have achieved an agreement which provides what the majority want.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Having read the proposed agreement on the table now as well as the original agreement offered 18 months ago, that we flat out rejected and gave up some pay having meetings over, could someone tell me, other than the FPC equal pay for equal work issue, what has changed/improved.

We didn't like the senior controller restructure, with in effect the top 3 bands of FPC being available only to an unknown number of advertised positions. And alot(including me) didn't like the principle of it ie. paying guys more to do bulls**t projects, than the guys who "just" control aircraft. RESULT: it goes to a working group and we only get part of our pultry payrise if we successfully agree on the restructure. Am I the only one feeling cold steel of theat gun barrell against the side of my head to agree on that one.

We didn't like the lack of no extra leave (and that personal leave rubbish, isn't extra leave for fatigue management, its if you can get one of those golden hearted FIR managers to approve it) RESULT: it goes to a working group where again ASA can offer diddly squat and tell us to take it or leave it.

We didn't like the FPC/Journeyman issue RESULT: We pay our own way out of that one and sign ourselves straight into another case of nonequal pay for equal work ie. All existing employees progress to top FPC regardless of Senior Controller availabilty, yet all new employees stop 3 bands from top and have to wait for all us guys to fall of the perch to get one of those coveted positions and the resulting pay rises.

We have endured an 18 month payrise, ASA are feverishly trying to train new ATC's to cover the gaping hole that will be left by the pending departure of a large chunk of TMA controllers due to age, and what do we do. We accept a payrise over 3 years (which if you include the wage freeze is 4 and 1/2 years) which is at or possibly below CPI. Please vote no and tell Bernie "Slash Burn and Sell SEC(victorian state electricity commission) " Smith to get serious and offer a realistic package or start brushing up on his ATC skills.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ferris]

It's not JUST about the almighty dollar. It's also about working for an employer that has made deception an art form. It's about managers running around trying so hard to squeeze the controllers to save a dollar, they dont realise/don't care that they are SQUEEZING THE CONTROLLERS. It's about a false pretence of being a business, without even trying to justify huge amounts of money($100s of millions) wasted on equipment. It's about turning an enjoyable job into a chore, the workplaces into sad, demoralising places to be.

Be careful. If every single principle, concept and intent isn't locked down, you'll be off to the IRC every week. And even if they are, you'll be off to the IRC every second week.

At the end of the day, I go to work for the money. Are you getting what you are worth?

[divingduck]

With regards to money....

do you live to work, or work to live??

The employer owns my bod for 8 hours a day, 18 days a month.
for that I am recompensed with what I consider a reasonable amount.

The other 16 hours a day, and 12 days a month are mine to do with what I wish.

Do the sums...if it's making you unhappy and stressed for that 8 hours...go somewhere else or do something else.

I live o/s nowadays, best move I ever made, loads of guys/gals I used to work with made all the noises about shifting os, but that was all they did...talk about it.

I also know loads of people that DID move into the wider world, and haven't come across too many that regretted the switch.

Please note, management in most places in the world are not what the line controllers wish of them (where I am now I'm pretty contented), so, if it comes down to you bitching about the boss.. why not go to a place that pays a lot more for exactly the same hassles?

[Stomper]

SO, what is the likely outcome of a 15 year controller, joining ASA with 3/5ths of that time as an Approach and Area Radar Controller, getting an Approach or Area job at brisbane or melbourne, and what pay would/could they expect to get as a starting salary after rating?

;)

[375ml]

Blind freddy sorry I missed you at the meeting, I hope the day wasn't taken up with bickering over the 0.73% cost of fixing the FPC debacle - both a union and ASA error. The bigger issue will be taking the 1.1% or not ... do we line our pockets with the 1.1% at the risk of further additional issues years down the track when the restructure creates a new subclass? Keep pay and conditions equal for all.

Vote yes.

[edited fpc cost]

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

375 ml....???? Line our pockets with 1.1% payrise. It's not much of a lining. I understand that the FPC issue is a situation that needs to be fixed but this agreement is so flawed and inadequate in every way we can't accept it, and we should go to the IRC (which we should have done 18 months ago) and not only get the FPC/JMN issue fixed but also get a reasonable deal on the rest as well. We need to get some balls and fight this or we will get what we deserve into the future, JACK SH*T!!!

VOTE NO

[375ml]

ANSA, the agreement is far - very far - from perfect/ideal, concurred. However the cost of legal representation for a drawn out IRC arbitration hearing will be a factor that should be carefully considered before voting no. This cost may well be manifested as a substantial levy to members (I wonder if this would be tax deductible?). I'm sure the sentiment of almost all members is with you, but there will be better opportunities in the future to improve your FAS.. or can't you wait?

DD, it's 1.1% at risk, not 11% !

[divingduck]

375ml...perfectly correct...never post in an alcolholic haze...:o

[imnomaverick]

Duck,

You made more than 1.1%with the exchange rate change in the last month.;)

[Tacolote]

After stating around the country that there is no change to the 'Special Leave clause' there is:
Was supposed to be 3 days 'personal' plumbing broke etc.
Plus another three days available at your managers discretion.
Plus up to three days personal leave at your discretion.

Now they have interpreted it to be 3 days maximum and then if you jump through the hoops up to three days more. Effectively 80% of the staff will now only have 3 days total not 3 plus 3; pricks!

The FPC fix was to put them on the right increment. The bastards have something on Avnet that now contradicts the LOA; this bunch of mongrels are now showing their spots. why make it so hard...? We are paying for this 0.73% and they are keeping the money...

VOTE NO!!!!!!

[TrafficTraffic]

...play nicely together children or you will get banned....I should know

[ferris]

See my earlier post about being off to the IRC every 10 seconds.

The idiots couldn't even wait until you had voted for the 'agreement' before they started 'reinterpreting' it.

You get what you settle for. I'll re-phrase that for the AsA minded.

The party of the second part may, or may not (at the discretion of the first party), and subject to any re-interpretation, business transformation or other valid variation by the first party, receive things (whether real or imagined) heretofore agreed, whether or not those things are written in stone, ink or blood, or any other form considered to be binding by non-liars.*

*Note; the party of the first part shall always be considered to have it's fingers crossed during any agreeing.

[89 steps to heaven]

Coral, this is one of the reasons that the process is taking so long.

We have repeatedly had agreements that were fairly straightforward but have had management reinterprept what the words actually ment later. This is what has happend with the current negiotiations, a disagreement as to what was actually agreed, and this during the voting process to accept or reject the CA.

So you try and word agreements so tightly that they can only mean what was discussed and agreed to.

Very difficult, especially when your personal belief is that when a person makes an agreement, even just a handshake, it is a done deal.

[375ml]

Perhaps cause to video/audio-record all negotiations for future dispute settlement? Meaning gets discussed at the negotations, interpretations get written down, then reinterpreted.

[blind freddy]

I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the change of attitude to this thread.

At last you are realising that Asa only have their best interests at heart and not yours!

There are a lot of you who are obviously new to the EBA game wanting to settle with the weak "Bird in the hand" line. The naievity is quite sad.

Asa will reinterpret the agrement as much as they can get away with, and keep on doing it. Ask yourself, what is in it for them?? It doesn't seem to be much, and therefore you need to worry. I have been with these jokes for too long to trust them one bit.

I would personally rather be force fed this poison, than vote yes to it.

If the vote is yes, then they wil throw it in our faces for the next three years. ( "How could you not like your conditions, YOU voted for it!")

If the vote is NO then we can hardly be worse off than we are now.

We could declare a stopwork meeting, have our bargaining period terminated (which we are still in btw), and end up in the IRC post haste! It doesn't have to be a long drawn out process. Asa has just as much to lose as we do. Like having to pay us a decent wage!

Keep the thread going, it is good to see people are thinking about this issue.


P.S. It felt soooooooo good to VOTE NO!!!!!!

[blind freddy]

Imagine my surprise when I find out Civil Air has changed its positon, and withdrawn support. About time.
We are being screwed by our employer and it is time to stop taking it sitting down.

I refer to my original post on this thread. We had a large opportunity to take industrial action, and chose not to.
It is now time.

Start talking to your delegate, tell him/her enough is enough.

How much worse off could we be than where we are now. We are nowhere.

I feel sorry for the people that voted yes believing AsA would look after you.

Looks like a NO vote was the smart choice after all!!!

[SM4 Pirate]

Coral,

No you shouldn't be surprised. The Flash (17 I think) said Vote the way you want; not an endorsement for either position; this came from the National Executive.

The interpretations given from the travelling road show gave cause for alarm last week. The resultant delays from AsA gave cause for more concern. To say that this would cost them 3million is absolute rubbish. I spoke with my delegate last night who told me that AsA had agreed, but 'without prejudice' as per Flash (19). The executive of AsA have really cocked it up. The union got it wrong by not catching this drafting issue earlier.

My understanding that this issue is over 3 days 'special leave' which was subject to "management approval" anyway. That is days 4 5 and 6 of the current conditions. How many employees access this leave each year, if it's more than 100 i'll eat my shirt. If thats 3 million worth then I need a bloody big pay rise to catch up with you.

This agreement would have fixed some of the FPC problems which was a huge step in the right direction. Arbitration will probably deliver the same result, just take longer, but it is risky.

It would have been a much clearer message if the union didn't endorse the NO vote, even though they had no choice, because if they didn't say no and it still got voted down then the pricks at the sharp end would have had a huge shock... Now they'll just expect it.

I only hope that less than 50% have cast their vote at this stage.

Blind freddy,

The union did what its members wanted. The members didn't want action, overall, even though some of us did, including myself. The reason that in-principle was given is because on balance there were more ticks than crosses.

That still didn't mean that they wanted a yes from its members, they wanted an answer... YES or NO.

I think what really got up the noses of the ASA executives is the Personal Leave could be used at the employees discretion, they realised that people will get days off when it doesn't suit AsA. Of course they are too stupid to see past the end of their noses that you only get that leave if you take less than 7 days without certificate.

Bottle of Rum...

[blind freddy]

sm4 pirate,

I agree with what you say, and I reiterate, I will abide with the unions decision as a whole. I just think the more 'heavy handed' controllers, like myself were dismissed as trying to cause trouble. All I was trying to do is bring about a speedy industrial solution, as I have absolutely no confidence in AsA bargaining in "good faith"!! ( Which I think has been vindicated.)

Also, how can Pilkington workers go on strike for a couple of days, and get a fairly good (better than us) solution in the IRC in a matter of weeks?

My MAIN concern however is not the personal leave, but the FPC ISSUE. On our EBA briefing day, Merv (Manager Airport Services) was asked 'if you have FPC rating do you get paid for it?'

His answer was astounding.

He skirted around the question, saying that if they had OCA, and they weren't supernumery blah blah blah.

He wouldn't give a straight answer.

We could be in a situation where we are paying for the FPC equity, and AsA doesn't pass the payrise on to these people!!!!


What else has to be reinterpreted before we start to get serious?
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[SM4 Pirate]

BF and Coral,

MF is a d!ckhead. Plain and simple.

This has been an ugly off, on again off again, couple of days, I think we can all take the point that we just don't trust these pricks.

They still think that the union is running the agenda and not the members; I have faith that my delegate is listening to us when we tell him what we think; that thought is then getting reflected back to me as policy; I love that and I've been in many unions where it just doesn't happen that way... (another topic)

I might personally disagree with certain approaches, but the overall view is being considered and I must accept that.

BF, what did Pilkington get, was it as good as you think; what elements or external factors would stop us doing the same?

Gov't, ministers for AV, and WPR, tourism, all lining up to kick us...

Big multinationals who we would disrupt and not to mention joe public that we'd be dicking around, public support is never with us, such is the beast.

Who was affected at Pilkington? Did one car not come off the lot because of a run out of stock? Were any builders not able to lay a pain of glass? Who was affected other than the workers on the picket and the managers ducking for cover? The skeleton crew that kept the fires burning really saved the situation from what I heard.

The climate is the same but the weather is much different, it really depends on what you do; if we ddin't stuff the country up when we take action then it would be far easier; as it is the grievence is perceived as a grab for money, nothing else and the public love it, not!

Bottle of Rum

[375ml]

Coral you may think our esteemed highly overpaid spindoctors enjoy the media spotlight as the crowning glory of an otherwise extremely cushy job, but you're well mistaken to interpret their division as Airservices Core Business.

Airservices Australia have promoted to Core Business standing, the brochure promoting ASAP, or ASA's Products. This is not a joke or pischtake. Take a look at the Airservices media and infowebsite (http://www.airservices.gov.au/mediainfo/index.htm) the look at the top-left menu option. Yes that's right. The 1st priority business function being promoted is "Product Marketing" which includes amongst others assisting implementation of Eurocat for Mauritius, cabin simulators bought from Ansett in the fire sale, changing light globes in East Timor, and maintaining a shared check in and departure system in Melbourne airport! Core business!

[trafficwas]

Don't put all the blame on Civil Air.
You can't get blood from a stone and Airservices is Chilligoe marble. They never intended negotiating and it was only stopwork that brought them to the table.
Ferris, enjoy the desert. there is not enough money in the world to get a sane Aussie to Arab land. Tennant Creek would have more attractions.

[ferris]

Yeah, it's terrible. Double the money, double the annual leave (and you get to take it pretty much when you want), at least 12 days off a month, greater work satisfaction etc etc, far away from AsA.

I'd be the last person to blame Civil Air. Have a look around at the next meeting!

Are there any sane aussies?

[divingduck]

I always seem to post just after ferris.....

traffic-used-to-be....tennant?? you have to be joking...they don't have decent bars, high rise buildings, nightlife (of the decent kind), culture etc etc....come over to the 'pit and visit...then go home and ruminate for a while about that comment!!

ps ferris...double? you guys are obviously underpaid up there....:cool:

To everyone else involved in this dispute, hang tough...and by all means give the industrial muscle a tweak, it was the only thing that got them to the table in the last instance.

good luck all.

[Stomper]

DivingDuck,

What do you guys get paid then? I'm curious?

[divingduck]

stomper...

check your private messages....

cheers

[imnomaverick]

Stomper,

You seem very interested in everyone's salary. Just looking at your previous posts you now have Canada's, Australia's, Doha's,
and probably Abu Dhabi, Muscats or Dubai ( can't remember where Duck is) and Skyguide's salary. Would you care to enlighten all of us how they compare eg. $$$ and conditions.
I am not sure but I gather you might be an ATCO from NZ, but you may wish to share this info as well.

[imnomaverick]

Ferris,

You still are one angry man. I thought the desert may have calmed you down but alas No.

[ferris]

Why would you think I'd calmed down? I'm not dead yet.

When are you going to reopen the doors at Maastricht? There's a lot of unhappy former colleagues looking for a 'Head Of Household' allowance.

[suunto22]

Speaking of the humble ASA, it appears that they are seeking new candidates for training. I beleive applications close 18th August but am unsure of when training commences or for what positions, En-route or Tower/TMA. Apparently there is a En-Route course scheduled for Jan/Feb next year but these candidates may have already been accepted from the last round of applications.

[imnomaverick]

Ferris

Unfortunately not anytime soon. I have had a lot of queries in the last couple of weeks from ex colleagues in ASA and other areas.
I have also given HR a picture of you and said "don't let this guy in under any circumstances" :D :D :p

[ferris]

Hah!!!

When the plastic surgery scars heal, you better start looking over your shoulder (I now look more like Pierce Brosnan than Brad Pitt).

You have been warned!

[snarek]

See below.

While not wanting to wade into an argument between AsA and Civil Air I would suggest CA check its facts. Traffic between Adelaide and Mel could be carried any number of ways, link failure is almost unheard of these days.

A very weak argument in my view.

.......


from Adelaide Advertiser...

Moves to end local air traffic control resisted
By STUART INNES and DAVID ECCLES
16aug02
A PLAN to remove air-traffic controllers from Adelaide and oversee the city's skies from 700km away in Melbourne will be considered in Canberra today. Advertisement

It is understood the board of Airservices Australia, which runs air traffic control nationally, will consider the move to shut down airport control units in Adelaide, Perth and Sydney and centralise them at a single site in Melbourne.

But air-traffic controllers and the Rann Government oppose the plan on safety and economic grounds.

Adelaide has 25 air-traffic controllers based at its airport providing approach and departure radar services to Adelaide and Parafield airports, the RAAF base at Edinburgh, and surrounding airspace to more than 60km.

The Advertiser yesterday obtained a copy of a report from the Australian Air Traffic Control Association, Civil Air, prepared in response to the Airservices Australia proposal, aimed at cutting costs and achieving more reliable, consistent service.

"Civil Air's analysis has determined that removing local air-traffic
control from Adelaide, Perth and Sydney would incur large and unnecessary costs," Civil Air's executive secretary, Peter McGuane, said yesterday.

"It would create significant new risks, including the loss of local
knowledge, and in Adelaide's case would ensure increased traffic costs for the aviation industry."

The report was highly critical of centralising air traffic control
services. "If Adelaide TCU were relocated to Melbourne and an outage (breakdown) of satellite or communication links between Melbourne and Adelaide occurred, safety-critical communication channels and-or radar data would halt all TCU services," it said.

The report also said Adelaide controllers' local knowledge – used to safely and efficiently manage the mix of scheduled airline, general aviation, pilot training and military traffic – would be lost if their duties were shifted to Melbourne.

[imnomaverick]

Snarek,

In your opinion it is a weak positon but let me give you a couple of scenarios.
Busy Centre in Western Europe, overzealous telecommunications worker with big assed backhoe, triple redundancy power supply which was cut off at gate, back up diesel generator off for maintenance or failed ( cant remember) . Effect ( Blank Screens and subsequent chaos). I believe the same situation has happened in a ATC establishment in sunny QLD as well.
Secondly, placing all eggs in one basket. Although this can create redundancies in itself. What about a Fire in said establishment. At the moment controllers between Melbourne,Adelaide,Perth as well as military can help Melbourne in case of evacuation by taking on limited separation responsibilities as well as SAR. This back up is removed. Brisbane Centre will only be only to help to a very limited extent.
Thirdly, what happens if the Flight Data Processor (which there are 2) fails in said establishment (These are the heart of TAARTS) . Instead of being limited to Enroute and ML TMA you now open chaos in AD and PH TMA's. Don't think it won't happen because it already has, several times.
I think that Civil Air is giving one example, there are a plethora of incidents to back up their arguement, they are just choosing one.

[ulm]

Oh

And lets not forget

The Islamic Seperatist Movement Ihate Wasteintowers could drive a fully laden Piper Apache into the Mel center at the same time a meteorite took out Brisbane, then we'd all be up ***** creek and actually have to do a bit of self separation for a while :D :D

[Adamastor]

Did everyone else receive the latest memo from Bernie at their home addresses today? Never have I known someone's initials to give such an accurate portrayal of the person themself! It's bad enough having my inbox at work flooded with his cr@p - when is this Pr!ck (yes, he's earned the capital 'P') going to stop sending his propaganda to our homes?

And can anyone confirm or deny the rumour that one of the comments in the Staff Satisfaction Survey was (and I paraphrase):

"I wish I knew which aircraft Bernie, the rest of the board, and all upper level management was on, so I could plough it straight into the nearest mountain"?

Tee hee.

[375ml]

I thought it is about time for another cynical tune while we wait for the results...

Bernie's Anthem
{To the tune of "Let the sun shine in/age of Aquarius" from Hair}

When the votes are finally counted out
The scrutineer gets his cigars
Then we will guide the aircraft
Back to the IRC

This is the dawning of the age of boss Bernie Smith
Age of boss Bernie Smith
Boss Bernie Smith
Boss Bernie Smith

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Big stick Civil Air’s elation
When we get our compensation
From Bernie Smith
Boss Bernie Smith

They have no spine
Start the resigning
Just let it begin

[divingduck]

I'l play the fish to Ulm's bait....

son, you are an idiot.....


Your bug smasher that runs around at 10 minutes to the mile and that can be put onto a tennis court if needed, is a little different to the PROFESSIONALS that drive the heavy metal at 10 miles to the minute and require a fair bit of hardened earth to stop them.

Personally, if you want to go and play with other like minded types, good for you, if you idiots want to come into controlled airspace and get in the way of the heavies (and not so heavies) tow the line or B*gger off!

You wouldn't be an ex-military cadet would you??? hmm??

I see on a daily basis what you spout off about..ie self separation by pilots that have all the bells and whistles, (and these guys/gals DON'T fly bugsmashers)..as well as having E2's and E3's up helping them out....and you would not believe the amount of near misses and almost "skin on skin" close goes we have here. And whilst a number of them have been saved by the "God" TCAS/ACAS, several have been saved by their reflexes and a larger number have been saved by diligent controllers that care more about your miserable life than you do. TCAS/ACAS won't work if the transponders are not switched on!!!!! I can't make that point stongly enough.

And for God's sake don't tell me that they should have them on, that's fairly obvious to all, even someone of your intellect.

Give it a rest.

signed,
a bloated, overpaid, underworked, undereducated, undertrained ATC, currently residing in what the US considers a war zone.

[willadvise]

Ballot results are in. Proposed CA defeated.

Where to now?


FLASH! FLASH! FLASH! FLASH!

CERTIFIED AGREEMENT UPDATE #48
23 August 2002

THE BALLOT RESULTS ARE IN!!

NO YES Returns
496 397 893
55% 45% 100%

The Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) today declared the result
of the ballot as detailed above.
Civil Air has requested an urgent meeting with Airservices Australia
as a consequence of the result, and would expect that meeting to occur
next week. Such a meeting is essential in determining the further
progression of the matter.
The Australian Industrial Relations Commission has been advised of
the outcome.
Advice of Divisional Meetings will be provided by local delegates.
PETER McGUANE
EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
C i v i l A i r
The Australian Air Traffic Control Association

[SM4 Pirate]

Dear Bernie,

Get it out son, sign a big fat cheque:

We want extra recreation leave;

we want a fix to the FPC issue for good;

We don't want to pay for the fix, you did it, you fix it;

We want a defined structure not up in the air;

we want recognition of fatigue issues, actions not words;

we want CPI increases, backdated to the expiration of our last agreement;

We want real focus on safety, not just a few words after each and every action that attacks it.

We want you to listen to our representatives who do actually represent us, despite your desparate need to believe otherwise.

Get the Fat Cats out of CB and put the more money towards the staff that run your business (aka cash cow) well, but more importantly who work in a very poor environment, with ordinary shifts, with very little complaint and even less recognition.

Bottle of Rum

[blind freddy]

Well done to the members that shouted Bernie down.

It has been a farce since the beginning. Trust Asa to change the "interpretation" during the ballot process.
Their aim since the beginning has been to screw us over. They have been doing it succesfully now for over 18 months!!

I agree whole heartedly with SM4 Pirate.

We need a real agreement with real benefits, both in wages and outcomes for the FPC's not paid their true entitlements.
Tell your delegates at the divisional meeting that it is now time to get what we want.

Asa can't cry poor, after QF announce record profits this week.

One last thing.....

There was 893 votes returned. I commend each and every one of you for taking the time and effort you took in voting. It doesn't matter which way you voted, at least you had your say.
I seem to recall there is about 1100 members in Civil Air.
To the two hundred and someting members that didn't vote,
SHAME SHAME SHAME

[375ml]

Bernie's note said about 1200 ballots posted, 895 returned. His claim was No=496, Yes=398. Which leaves 1 informal vote (GOOSE!).

I wouldn't be so quick to shame the non voting members. Not speaking for myself, but there would definitely be a number of people who marked 'yes' then didn't post their ballot after receiving instructions from Civil Air, possibly waiting for the confusion to be clarified instead of requesting a replacement ballot paper. Of course there was a large number of 'yes' voters who posted their ballot before receiving the new instructions. It is reasonable and accurate to describe the ballot as a farce, but as the 'no' vote got up I see little reason to worry about appeal.

SM4 Pirate: well said.

[blind freddy]

375ml, thats a very fair point.

Now however is the time for ALL members to become involved and have their say.

Bernie seems to think that Civil Air is a renegade bunch with their own agenda. He doesn't understand that the members are the union.

Tell your delegate what you will accept from this agreement, and more importantly how far you are prepared to go for it.
I make no secrect that I think we didn't use enough industrial muscle initially.

Are the rest of you now prepared to take action, or are the majority content to keep "negotiating"?:confused: