Your airbus procedures : Fuel pumps ON or OFF during refueling ?

[C.M]

A lot of operators have fuel pumps off while refueling takes places . But some other operators simply say ‘ airbus says all white lights out’ and that’s the end of the story. What does your SOP say and do you know a technical reason that would make it prudent to have fuel pumps off till refueling finishes ? ( it is very possible that the urge to leave them off is carried from operators who operated different aircraft in the past , but the technical reasons for other aircraft may not be applicable to airbus. )

[Jimbo2Papa]

Definitely all white lights out with our SOP.

There's no reason why refuelling should cause anomalies with pressures and pre-flight, etc.

Why do you ask?

[C.M]

If there are operators who do not set the Pumps ON until refueling finishes , it might be because of issues that resulted because of that , and I would like to be informed about it . My Previous operator had this as SOP with no explanation ( their entire OMB -SOP was the exact FCOM-SOP written with their own minor modifications so we very seldom bothered with the FCOM SOP. ) Now that I’m with a different operator I’d like to be sure exactly when I raise a topic , to have valid justifications for it .

[Jimbo2Papa]

I would say you're correct in your assumption that there are operators who have had "issues" that have resulted in modified SOP's peculiar to their company re: fuelling procs, etc
Hard lessons learnt maybe.
As far as I'm aware of Airbus wide procedures there's no direct published procedure to extinguish the white lights before, during or after refuelling.

[hans brinker]

C.M

We have a note in the SOPs: "During refueling, FUEL PUMPS must remain OFF".
I can only think of one issue why: during re-fueling with the CTR TK pumps ON, on the aircraft with CTR TK XFR System the CTR TKs are pushing fuel from the CTR TK into the WNG TKs while fueling. I guess the worry is the WNG TKs could be overfilled by this. They should not, the CTR TK PUMPs should switch OFF at high WNG TK level, and refuel valves should close when a high fuel level is detected...

[hans brinker]

Definitely all white lights out with our SOP.

There's no reason why refuelling should cause anomalies with pressures and pre-flight, etc.

Why do you ask?

Our SOP have a note to wait with the foul pumps until fueling is done. I don't know what is better, but I really think it doesn't matter if you have white lights ON until the first engine is started...

[TURIN]

I'm not sure about the Airbus family, but on many types the cross feed and refuel lines (gallery) are the same.
In theory, if pumps are on, then certain areas of the refuel 'gallery' could be fighting the aircraft pump pressure during refuelling. At best this could slow refuelling and at worst damage componants.

Maybe.

[Capt Fathom]

Do you think that maybe Airbus did not consider all this when designing their SOP's?

[hans brinker]

I would hope so, but they did not write the manual clearly enough for there to be no ambiguity....

[Cak]

There is no reason to leave them off. There could be an issue with fuel spillage if CTR PUMPS OR XFRs are not set to OFF and FUEL MODE SELECTOR is left n MAN position.
There was something else on some older models long time ago but I cannot recall exactly what was it :)
So, maybe it just stayed as part of SOP for reasons no longer in force

[MATMAX]

basically technically , during a refuelling , whatever the Aircraft type is , Boeing or Airbus , everything must be off , it is a question of safety ...
i do not see why the fuel pumps should be on , the fuel pumps are low pressure pumps and are just needed to feed the high pressure pumps ...
now , by experience , i have seen few times , where , on some Airbuses (old 340) , the total fuel qty was varying (until 500 kgs) , between pumps off and then on , the main reason being filling in the collector cell ... i guess it is the reason why , depending on the company Policy , some are asking to put the pumps on ...
as a tech , i am leaving the pumps off , then , when the refuelling is completed , i am switching the pumps to on , and waiting around 10 mins to see if the total qty is dropping down or not , just my 2 cents here ...
anyway , leaving the pumps on ON is disturbing Nothing during a refuelling ...
refuellings are managed by the FCMCs , depending on the qty required , the FCMCs will open and shut the refuelling valves , maintain balancing , etc ...
in a perfect world , Nothing special is supposed to happen , except if some valves are having internal leaks , if there are no leaks in the tanks , etc ...
normally , until the FCMC is not stopping the refuelling , Nothing is supposed to be done , but , thats the duty of the person in charge of the refuelling ...

[Fursty Ferret]

We switch ours off to reduce the electrical transient when switching from GPU to ship's power. Will reduce APU fuel burn and on a very hot day will give noticeable boost to air con.

[MATMAX]

Gents , all fuel pumps are electrically powered and mechanically geared ... during refuelling , there are fuel vapors everywhere ...
i think that all of you will imagine easily what can happen in the case of a pump failure or whatever ...
i am sure that all of you heard about TWA800 and the SFAR88 ...
in maintenance , we must study and practise the FTS and CDCCL , maybe you should read stuff about these ... again , just my 2 cents ...

[Highway1]

The Airbus AMM allows APU starts during refueling so a pump is going to run whatever you have selected on the Flt Deck.

[ACMS]

The Tanks are not empty and the pumps are always completely covered with fuel. If the tanks were empty the fault light in the associated pumps would illuminate.
Furthermore the Tanks are hardly ever completely full so there will always be fuel vapor present unless there is an inerting system fitted ( A350 )

Just follow your Airbus SOP for the type you are on.

SIMPLE.

[vapilot2004]

On this aircraft, the refuel gallery is separated from the main fuel pump pressure by the de-fuel valve.

[MATMAX]

The Airbus AMM allows APU starts during refueling so a pump is going to run whatever you have selected on the Flt Deck.

not really sure about this , but for sure , other documents are recommending not to do it ...
not only a fuel pump will be activated during the APU starts , but relays , exciters , etc ...
if you are on battery , the DC pump will run , on the GPU another AC pump , both of them located on the aft spar , LH side ...
where the fuel truck is plugged to the Aircraft ...?

[MATMAX]

The Tanks are not empty and the pumps are always completely covered with fuel. If the tanks were empty the fault light in the associated pumps would illuminate.
Furthermore the Tanks are hardly ever completely full so there will always be fuel vapor present unless there is an inerting system fitted ( A350 )

Just follow your Airbus SOP for the type you are on.

SIMPLE.

the fault light means low pressure at the pump outlet , it has Nothing to do with the fuel tank qty , empty or full ;)

totally agree with this : "Just follow your Airbus SOP for the type you are on."

[bcgallacher]

On earlier Airbus types a boost pump in each inboard tank pressurised a small valve allowing the refueling manifold to drain into the inboard tank after refueling with the aircraft pumps then switched on. During refueling when the selected quantity was reached the refuel valve for that tank would close but if the boost pump was running fuel would still enter the inboard tank uncontrolled through the drain valve.

[Highway1]

not really sure about this ,

Look it up then A330 AMM 12-11-28 P301:

(17) APU starts or shutdowns are permitted during refuel/defuel procedures.

Airbus even allow refueling with one engine running (Ref. FCOM 2.01.30)

[sierra_mike]

not really sure about this , but for sure , other documents are recommending not to do it ...
FCOM explicitly allows to start and/or shut down APU
During refuel/defuel procedures, APU starts or shutdown are permitted with the following restrictions:
If the APU failed to start or following an automatic APU shutdown, do not start the APU
If a fuel spill occurs, perform a normal APU shutdown.

you could even have one engine running while refueling if you have no APU/GPU available

where the fuel truck is plugged to the Aircraft ...?
depends on the option your company bought. A320 is available with refuel couplings on either side.

...some other operators simply say ‘ airbus says all white lights out’...
our FCOM has an specific note adressing that
ALL WHITE LIGHTS...................EXTINGUISH
It is a general rule to turn off all the white lights during the scan sequence; therefore, these actions are not listed here.
Fuel pumps shall remain OFF until refueling is completed.

the reason? no word about it

[wiedehopf]

it's not like there are fumes anywhere but in the fuel tank.

jet-A itself is not that flammable at all. Don't know what all the fuss is about.
also it will not produce significant gases until at high altitude the pressure drops.

for a comparison with regular gasoline check this nice video:
https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE?t=128
(https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE?t=128)
So any reason for leaving the fuel pumps off is more likely an overpressure / overflow / spill problem than anything else.

Matmax: i don't know what exactly why you point to TWA800 the fuel quantity indication system created sparks in the gases above the kerosene. that's obviously bad.

i'm not certain a fuel pump creating sparks would do anything while submerged in kerosene. the kerosene simply wouldn't care.

also what makes the time of refueling so much more dangerous than any other time?

the vapors should be vented in a controlled manner somewhere they dissipate.

[MATMAX]

FCOM explicitly allows to start and/or shut down APU

you could even have one engine running while refueling if you have no APU/GPU available


depends on the option your company bought. A320 is available with refuel couplings on either side.


our FCOM has an specific note adressing that


the reason? no word about it

SM , different Companies , different procédures and different standards ...
of course , you can even board or offboard passengers , Nothing is impossible ...
if APU or GPU is not available , you DO NOT NEED an engine running as refuelling can be accomplished with batteries ONLY ...
in the worst case , absolutely no power at all required as refuelling can be done manually ... this is valid for any Aircraft ...
Sir , i know a bit about the A320 , thank you :) , what is the most common practise ...?
no word about it as it is the Airbus philosophy , simple as that ...

[sierra_mike]

if APU or GPU is not available , you DO NOT NEED an engine running as refuelling can be accomplished with batteries ONLY ...

true that! but how do you plan to start the engines again once everything is shut down when you don't have any pneumatic source?

[MATMAX]

wiedehopf , where the fuel is coming from ? are you sure that all trucks are in perfect condition ?
never saw sparks at the exhaust on some loaders , tractors , etc ...?
oh thank you YouTube ahahah ...
"So any reason for leaving the fuel pumps off is more likely an overpressure / overflow / spill problem than anything else."
absolutely not Sir , simply as they are not required for refuelling ...

a lot of sparks are created in and around an Aircraft , thats the reason why , all AMMs have warnings at the beginning of the refuelling sections , normally , Nothing is allowed during refuelling except what is needed for the refuelling ...
"also what makes the time of refueling so much more dangerous than any other time?"
i am puzzled here ... i see you are in Germany , but for sure , not German , heard about safety first ?
Sir , thats the most Dangerous time when the Aircraft is on the ground for so obvious reasons ...

[MATMAX]

true that! but how do you plan to start the engines again once everything is shut down when you don't have any pneumatic source?

not available or unserviceable ?
heard about ASU ? Air Start Unit ...
i thought people here were talking about refuelling ;)

[MATMAX]

lets go back to the original question : Fuel pumps ON or OFF during refueling ?
whatever , both can be done , it is just "better" , more safe to do it with the pumps OFF.
on the technical side ;)
now , to make your life more easy and not forget to put them back ON before engine starts , you can leave them ON , even if the engines do not need the pumps to start and run ... because they are LOW pressure pumps , the HIGH pressure pumps are fitted on the engine gearboxes , whatever the engine family/type is ...

[wiedehopf]

wiedehopf , where the fuel is coming from ? are you sure that all trucks are in perfect condition ?
never saw sparks at the exhaust on some loaders , tractors , etc ...?
oh thank you YouTube ahahah ...

Ok so your logic is the refueling trucks are spilling fuel and making sparks.

Therefore safety first means switching off all fuel pumps.
I'd say that's grade A logic.

Doesn't matter how well you know aircraft, to me you are incoherently yelling DANGER DANGER!

[sierra_mike]

not available or unserviceable ?
heard about ASU ? Air Start Unit ...

of course i do know what an air starter is good for. but what do you do when there is none and you don't have a working APU aboard? you have to keep 1 engine running, thats why this procedure exists in the manuals. but yes: off topic, just wanted to point out you can have various things going on during refuelling. not everything has to be shut down.

[MATMAX]

Ok so your logic is the refueling trucks are spilling fuel and making sparks.

Therefore safety first means switching off all fuel pumps.
I'd say that's grade A logic.

Doesn't matter how well you know aircraft, to me you are incoherently yelling DANGER DANGER!

Sir , yelling is useless ...
you can not even imagine how many times WARNING and DANGER are written in the refuelling sections of any AMMs , for obvious reasons ...

[MATMAX]

of course i do know what an air starter is good for. but what do you do when there is none and you don't have a working APU aboard? you have to keep 1 engine running, thats why this procedure exists in the manuals. but yes: off topic, just wanted to point out you can have various things going on during refuelling. not everything has to be shut down.

Sir , keeping an engine running is the last solution ... but wait a minute please ... there is no GPU , the APU is U/S , no ASU available ... your Company does not know about it ? they are sending you to this place ? you are accepting to fly there ?
different companies , different standards ...

[sierra_mike]

that's a whole different story and you are missing the point. again: i just wanted to point out that this procedure exists indicating a lot of stuff can be done during refueling under certain circumstances. that doesn't mean we're doing that on a regular basis :ugh: it comes along with a lot of safety measures as it is a hairy situation. every sane PIC will avoid it. but airbus gives you the option, might come in handy one day on a bloody deserted airfield. period.

this thread is drifting unnecessarily, back to original question!

[ACMS]

Just follow the Aircraft manufacturers SOP and you’ll be fine.

Thousands of trips every single day and I’ve not heard of one problem caused by switching on the pumps.

KISS method

[compressor stall]

And if you're really worried, get your tech pilot to submit a tech request to Airbus.

Airbus do permit refuelling with one engine running, but most regulators and companies don't. The trouble with threads like this is that people reply with their company limitations, not realising that they are just that - company limits. They might be brought about by fleet commonality with Boeings, or old wives tales, archaic regulators or crusty chief pilots still living in the DC10 days. Other companies with different circumstances, training, locations etc may elect to do it.

[TheGreenDragon]

I recently obtained a A320 rating at CTE . I have over 200 hours of flying experience .
I understand its a captains descision wether to leave the pumps on or off .

I tend to select them on if the TAT probe indicates above 20 degrees , and leave them all off if the TAT indicated is below 10 deg. This I think is to prevent cavitation?

If the OAT is between 10 and 20 degrees , as a captain , I can choose to leave some standby pumps off and the main pumps on . It works well in my experience .

As always, when you are an experienced captain , its your choice , not anyone elses.

[ACMS]

Oh boy, you’ve got 200 hours and you’re already making up your own procedures. Even an experienced Captain cannot just vary or makeup his own procedures unless he has a very sound reason for doing so at the time.

SOP’s are there to be followed for a damn good reason and it usually involves saving your ass both during the event and after in any subsequent investigation.

STOP IT.

Follow your Airbus approved AFM FCOM and don’t make up stuff yourself mate.

It’s not hard surely.


p.s. what has the TAT got to do with fuel pump issues? Is there anything in the A320 FCOM that refers to TAT and fuel pump usage on the ground?

Is your TAT probe aspirated on the ground? Because if it’s sitting in the Sun it will over read, if it’s wet and windy it will under read. It’s not reliable until the Engines are running.

[Dan Winterland]

The Maintenance Manual procedure for refuelling has the pumps off during the procedure. However, as refuelling rarely starts in the A320 series until the crew arrives, the pumps usually get switched on as part of the pre flight preparation as this appears to be the majority of operator's SOPs due to following the Airbus philosophy.

[Highway1]

Can you specify what section of the MM requires fuel pumps to be off as I have just reread my copy and I cannot find that anywhere.

[vilas]

OK guys below is the answer I had obtained a few years back from airbus Flt.Ops.
Regarding the operation of fuel pumps in standard/normal conditions, we would like to confirm that Airbus recommendation is to switch OFF all fuel pumps at the end of the flight, and to turn them back ON during the cockpit preparation.
The references in the Airbus operational documentation are the following ones:

- At the end of the flight, Airbus SOP (Refer to FCOM-PRO-NOR-SOP-22 P 2/4) requests the flight crew to set FUEL PUMPS to OFF

- During the cockpit preparation, Airbus SOP (Refer to FCOM-PRO-NOR-SOP-06 P 3/20) states “It is a general rule to turn off all white lights during the scan sequence; therefore, these actions are not listed here”, namely to turn OFF all white lights for all the related systems.

The reason for this policy is to avoid operation of fuel pumps in an empty fuel tank, and also avoid unwanted fuel transfers (which can affect and potentially abort refueling process). That is the reason why the recommendation to switch OFF the fuel pumps before refueling is not explicitly provided into the FCOM, because this recommendation is implicitly covers by SOPs in standard operations (i.e. when refueling is performed before the cockpit preparation).
Please be informed that there are no restrictions/limitations to have fuel pumps running during the refueling as long as they do not run dry (in an empty tank, which in any cases should never be more than 10 minutes).

However, the general recommendation (not mandatory) is to have the fuel pumps switched OFF during refueling, in order to ensure that the possibility of pump dry running is avoided. It is particularly relevant for the center tank pumps, because the center tank is most of the time empty at the end of the flight. Switching OFF the center tank pumps ensures in all cases that they do not run during refuelling.

When performing the cockpit preparation, it is assumed that the refuelling (if needed) has been performed previously. As a result, if Airbus SOPs are well applied, all the fuel pumps will be correctly switched OFF during refueling.

[C.M]

Vilas thank you very much for this piece of info , I got what I was looking for.

[Romasik]

not available or unserviceable ?
heard about ASU ? Air Start Unit ...
i thought people here were talking about refuelling ;)

Heard about airports with no ASU available?:) Or just single ASU that failed all of a sudden?

[MATMAX]

Look it up then A330 AMM 12-11-28 P301:

(17) APU starts or shutdowns are permitted during refuel/defuel procedures.

Airbus even allow refueling with one engine running (Ref. FCOM 2.01.30)

Sir , "permitted" but not the best practise ... many operators are not allowing to do it ...
you are talking about the A330 , i have lived many times where people were not waiting for the "flap open" msg , leading the APU not to start , fuel line not pressurized enough ...
"hey maintenance , the APU is not working" ... "oh yeah really...?"

permitting , allowing , these mean they can be done but not the best.

[MATMAX]

Just follow the Aircraft manufacturers SOP and you’ll be fine.

Thousands of trips every single day and I’ve not heard of one problem caused by switching on the pumps.

KISS method

"Just follow the Aircraft manufacturers SOP and you’ll be fine."

EXACTLY !
"
Thousands of trips every single day and I’ve not heard of one problem caused by switching on the pumps."


not directly Sir , but using them when not needed will lead to an unserviceable pump , the MEL will have to be opened then ...

[MATMAX]

Can you specify what section of the MM requires fuel pumps to be off as I have just reread my copy and I cannot find that anywhere.

Sir , your copy ?
do you have the last updated copy ?
using his "own" copy is not allowed.

[MATMAX]

Heard about airports with no ASU available?:) Or just single ASU that failed all of a sudden?

yes Sir , therefore one of my previous company was saying : APU must be serviceable.
single ASU failing , not correctly maintained ?

[MATMAX]

Oh boy, you’ve got 200 hours and you’re already making up your own procedures. Even an experienced Captain cannot just vary or makeup his own procedures unless he has a very sound reason for doing so at the time.

SOP’s are there to be followed for a damn good reason and it usually involves saving your ass both during the event and after in any subsequent investigation.

STOP IT.

Follow your Airbus approved AFM FCOM and don’t make up stuff yourself mate.

It’s not hard surely.


p.s. what has the TAT got to do with fuel pump issues? Is there anything in the A320 FCOM that refers to TAT and fuel pump usage on the ground?

Is your TAT probe aspirated on the ground? Because if it’s sitting in the Sun it will over read, if it’s wet and windy it will under read. It’s not reliable until the Engines are running.

all well said : Bravo ! :)

[Nicola18]

Hello,
a bit late reply..
My OMB says:
"if the FUEL MODE SEL pb-sw is unduly left in the MAN position on ground, when the CTR TK L+R XFR pb-sw are not in the OFF position, there is the possibility of fuel spillage. In this configuration, the center tank fuel transfer will not stop when the wing tank become full."
Cheers

[MD83FO]

When i do the walk around and hear the fuel pumps running needlessly i feel a sense of waste. Why would i want to rush on a cockpit preparation one hour before the pumps will be needed.

[Murtoman]

Around here its pretty hot in the summer, and general technique is to leave the fuel pumps OFF from engine shutdown until before start to avoid fuel hot warnings before takeoff(especially when tankering fuel into small airports). I cant say for facts if the pumps on actually affects the fuel temperature or not(logic would state so) as I've never paid that much attention to it. All I know is that the one time we did leave them on we had a fuel temp warning on line-up and had to return to ramp to put an extra 200kg colder fuel in to get away :D

I know slightly OT from the topic, but just wanted to put this out here

-M

Edit: Location is in the mediterranean, not Finland ATM

[ManaAdaSystem]

With regards to jet fuel not being flammable:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010905-1

[aeromech3]

Generally speaking I agree minimum electrical loads and changes during refuelling would be best practice (unfortunately in these times a seldom used term) as the oncoming fuel will increase the venting hence fumes from the aircraft tanks. Refuelling with an engine running, in my experience, would require both fuel Co. and airport Fire Service concurrence.
Use of booster pumps is often required during a de fuel or balancing, though some tanker / rig operators prefer to de couple during the later.

[OPEN DES]

Forget about sparks.

No generator switching whilst refueling as this may reset the refueling panel.