ATPL help

[r10bbr]

Hi guys, i've just started my modular atpls at CAE, and so far its been the first week & the amount of info to take it has been over whelming , and then there's the 7 exams to be sat in April 2018, we have been told by a lecturer at the school that 90 % of what we learn of the atpl's is bull crap for when we become pilots

what i wanted to ask is how is this humanely possible , i'm already stressed out as it is and i haven't even gone past the first week , how do i filter out what info to remember and what not too.

Does anyone here know of any external providers that provide additional atpl tuition etc, i have enquired at bristol and they do such revison week's for modules, but as an external student from a different school would this help me get a better idea of the topic im struggling with.. i wish they abolished these atpls

i wanted to ask fellow students and ex studnets whom have studied or are studying how do they do it, i've been going over my notes from lectures and reading them again and again and then there's practising the self generated questions on the bank, so much to do its making me pull out my hair as such, i feel like i've bitten abit too much, i know its only 3 days in and its gonna get tough but how do people do it ...:ugh:

ps im not spending my time on the q.bank as we have been told that to learn the material/theory as that the caa now can ask the same question but worded different..

what i need help with is how to best plan for revising and what to revise and is there such services for extra tuition available..

[Officer Kite]

Question banks will be your best friend sir :) Use them, use them, use them .... and then use them some more.

Now I'm not advocating blind memorisation of answers (although that will be the case for a couple of questions which make no sense to anyone other than the infamous 'examiner') ... what you need to do is use the question banks as your guide for the learning, they'll guide you as to what you really need to know, studying hundreds of pages of books and writing out notes on something which is never gonna be examined is a sure way to add stress and not get the desired results.

[r10bbr]

but learning the bank will lead to an option where that question may or may not come as each exams are generated different to each student?

[Jaair]

This video may help you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI0YjFc2hLo

[dook]

.....to know what they are asking as there are quite a few tricks on exam questions designed to get you to fail

Absolute rubbish. For a while I was employed by the CAA as a consultant on the CQB.

I weeded out the questions and answers which were ambiguous and substituted them with ones which were clear and in proper English.

The new questions which I put into the CQB were in the same vein, and there were many.

You will only perceive questions as "tricks" if your knowledge is insufficient and/or you do not understand English.

[THE FLYING MONKEY]

Well said Negan.

I had a question on an inner loop system, which is easy to understand in theory. When I looked at the answers, there were 4 similar long answers talking about independent variables and control variables which I just couldn’t get my head around. I went home and got the text book out, which had one page on it and I’m still none the wiser.
I thought I knew my stuff but obviously not!

[Officer Kite]

dook

Would you only have been able to change questions within the UK CAA or would they have been changed at an EASA level too if you edited them?

For all its faults, the thing I like about the ECQB is that some of the questions and answers are so bizarre that you will never forget the answer again ... it comes handy in the exams! :}

[r10bbr]

would you say majority of the questions related to the easa exams are more on the bristol bank or more on the aviation bank? i dont sit my exams until april, and i may drop some more near the time depending on how its going so far..

[r10bbr]

thanks for the reply but as i have 7 exams to do in april thats like 7000 questions , what i wanted to ask is how often are these questions being updated and even if i split 1000 question a day for each module are the questions on bristol app repeated again the caa exams as in word for word or are they re worded etc?

[Officer Kite]

Aviation exam is an excellent tool, however there are some subjects which AE doesn't quite do it alone, namely flight planning. I got bitten badly in that exam with loads of Reduced contingency fuel and PDP calculation questions that I had never seen before ... AE only have a couple of theory questions on this, no actual calculations. Yet BGS had numerous questions on them which I only discovered after the exam. So yes use one mainly ... but do have a look to see what the other has that your main one hasn't covered. Together they almost certainly cover it all though.

[dook]

My time with the CAA was pre-EASA.

[paco]

Yes, a lot of us spent time in the Belgrano rationalising suspect questions around then, but only for the UK database. It obviously didn't do much good....

[edhelms]

Guys, do you think It's a good idea to apply for a Ground School or It's a waste of money?

[paco]

You have to if you cannot self-certify with an ICAO ATPL and some hours....

[r10bbr]

just was told by a fellow student , he had 3 friends who bashed the q bank 3 months before there exams and all passed 75% and over, ps are new 1500 questions added per month per subject as i was also told or its less

[superflanker]

Perhaps 1500 a year...between all subjects.

[Dude1]

Has anybody tried ATPL online ? For the exams in the U.K. What subjects are currently using the new format ?

[ersa]

Yes , its a cheap version of bristol ground school

[SierraVictor]

hello guys,

It's a bit out of topic question but maybe you can give me an idea.
I have 3 exams in March(Instrumentation, Radio Nav and Performance) and I think I'm running a bit late.
I have going through the whole RNAV and have of performance but I haven't start Instrumentation yet. Do you guys think that it's enough time 40 days to prepare everything properly? So far I have passed other 6 subjects with an average of 90% so I would like to keep the marks up.

[Officer Kite]

Are you sure 3 subjects is worth opening a session for?

Regarding instrumentation, yes that is absolutely enough time - more than enough in fact. Radio navigation is also not a difficult subject either. In fact I think instrumentation and radio nav are similar in that they are just 'click and move' type questions, some very basic and easy principles need to be grasped and that's it, if you have difficulties remembering somethings then you can use the last resort of memorising a few questions by force ... nothing surprising in the exams for either of them either. They're different to say Gnav or performance where you have to actually understand what's going on in order to make the successful calculations and memorising questions won't help you.

[r10bbr]

in terms of studying time table how do those in the same situation cope with the stresses of the atpls, i have been told of stories where people have studies 5/6 hours per day 7 days a week for 6 months or stories of those who 3 months prior to the exams have hammered the bank and passed, when asked how much of the bank info came up in the exams have been told 60% or more...

[Officer Kite]

If I were you I wouldn't worry so much, you've just started, all the info is coming at you at a pace faster than you can cope with etc etc ... really it is a situation we have all been in. The key to it is first believe you can do it, and second to literally keep telling yourself that and actually do it.

If you start now with the questions, getting familiar with them, knowing exactly what they want, speaking to people who are taking their exams now, asking if there are any differences (but do beware of some who will exaggerate the difficulty of their exam to make it sound like they were extra good to have passed it) and constantly working to it you'll be fine. You aren't the first and you won't be the last ... just use the resources wisely :)

[r10bbr]

the question is what info to remember and attain lol, we all have the believe to do it as i believe....constantly working does that mean 5/6 hours per day 7 days a week for the next 6 months, as some people have said...

[Jaair]

In theory all information should be remembered but realistically this isn't possible. I am yet to start my ATPL but from what I understand, once you have covered all the material the QBs serve as a good guide on the type of questions and their wording.

The amount of hours you spend a day will depend on how fast you want to get it done. Some people have gotten it done in as little as 4 months spending 6-7 hours a day while others spend 2 hours a day to get it done in 12 months.

[r10bbr]

i envy those whom can remember the info lol, im still struggling trying to remember what i learnt last week...spending 6/7 hours a day on the bank does not mean passing the real easa exams as many have said, as that on the day of the exams one may get a new influx of questions or if lucky the ones from the bank...

[cavok_flyer]

After working all day at my paying job, I could only do MAX 2 hours of quality studying/QBs. Weekends were 4 hours/day. I would not start an exam block until I felt 90% certain I would pass. I think doing 6-7 hours a day "banking" is too much; my mind would starting getting dull over that period of time and frustration sets in (has it, already?)

[jamesgrainge]

What is quality studying? There's no real way to retain the information across technical subjects that aren't related, especially 6 months later. Unless you're a genius.

[paco]

If you go for the meaning of the material rather than the straight facts you might find it little easier

[johnjohncafe]

Personally for me I'm completely overwhelmed on the ATPL

If we were allowed more sessions it would help as I wouldn't have to prepare 4 subjects all at once and could actually learn the material better

The way it is now I have no choice but to question bank

Trying to remember all that information for 4 subjects is just a crazy amount of info to retain

Today on my real exam I took I got questions wrong that I shouldn't have because I'm so overloaded from all the studying

Maybe I'm just not naturally good at studying but it's definitely excessive the volume of information Easa wants us to know and on top of that I have to take multiple subjects all in the same week

Don't give up buddy ! I am in the same boat as you, I know it's hard...especially for guys who have a deadline but you will be proud of yourself when you accomplish this ! :ok:

[rudestuff]

It's not supposed to be easy! Doing three at a time makes it manageable, you can roll any fails over. I did 4,4,3,3. I found I couldn't study after a days work, I had to take time off work. One week per subject is achievable if you study correctly.

[Rottweiler22]

I know what ground school is like, and it was without a doubt the most intense six months of my life. Significantly more stressful than school and University. Like Rudestuff says, it's not supposed to be easy. One of my friends in the USA was studying to be a doctor, and he complained to his professor about why he had to study calculus as part of his medical degree. The professor replied "It's to stop morons becoming doctors!". Take it as you like, but ATPLs will inevitably need a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I probably averaged six hours per day of studying for six months. It is, and will be very hard work. I could count the days I had off during that period on one hand. I feel for you guys because from what I hear, ATPLs are much harder than they were a year or so ago.

When I was there the instructors toed the party line and told us to stay away from question banks, as they claimed learning the content through the books was the most effective way to get through the exams. This was very bad advice. In both the school exams and EASAs, the ones who didn't use question banks (or spent very little time using one) ALWAYS had the lowest scores. Question banks are a weapon in your arsenal, so use them IN ADDITION TO proper study.

What I will say is that it would be very, very foolish to rely solely on a question bank for study. Reading, highlighting, making notes, and understanding the principles is 75% of the game. Especially with the new question formats. The other 25% is learning the how to answer, and get around certain types of questions. This extra help is what pushes your score above 75% and gets you the pass. This is what question banks come in handy for. Literally memorising thousands of questions may have got people through in the past, but it's just not enough now. Even prior to the new question formats, I saw students do nothing but hammer the Bristol QB for a week before exams. And fail four or five exams.

Put in the work by using the books and material, then brush-up and test your knowledge through the question banks. It will take A LOT of time and effort, but that's the nature of the ground school beast I'm afraid.

[r10bbr]

i agree with rotweiler 100% it should be used as an aid when a person feels comfortable they understand the topic and then use bristol to attempt the questions to get a feel of how the exams are worded/styled etc..

but this is where i wanted to ask fellow members the following that i have encountered, the first being not everyone i have met that are studying or have studied the atpls are forward to say that they have used or are using bristol question bank, some look at disgust when the word bristol is mentioned, or dont even suggest it to use at all.

we have been told by the school where im studying to use bristol a week before our easa exams which in realistically time wise is impossible to cover 7 subjects in 7 days i.e 1 subject on average has over 1200 questions, doing 1000 question per day works out to be roughly 200/300 question per hour depending on the individuals usage ..

the second being when browsing the relevant sites in terms of atpl exam feedback the majority people have commented that doing the last 200/300 questions of each subject is the most up to date questions that are being asked in the exams , again how true is this? as that each exam sat by individuals are generated differently thus the chance of myself seeing those 200 questions in my real exams can vary i may get 60% of those questions from the bank or i may get all new ones ... but again a lot of feedback has been said the last 200/300 questions are the ones to remember etc

also i have met students at my school who have said , all they have done is 3 months prior to their exams is hammer the bank and the questions they have done in the bank came up in their exams and they have passed with 75 % and above


thirdly does sitting the exams at different venue have a similar pattern of the questions that are repeated or asked in the exams i.e sititng at gatwick 40% bank questions compared to sitting at oxford having 10% bank questions..

to conclude i do understand the bank is to be used as an aid to compliment the individuals studies..

anyone care to share there views..?

[Alex Whittingham]

Yes. There's no reason why training material cannot be written to both teach the subject and to answer the exam questions. The only issue is the time lag between new and unexpected questions turning up and getting material updated which, even in a near perfect world, would be six months. That gap is covered in full time courses by the instructors (or should be), in distance learning courses by the revision courses (or should be) and in advance preparation for the revision courses by question banks. I really struggle with instructors at big integrated schools sneering at question banks, their students are subscribing (at extra expense) to get a service which, frankly, they should be providing.

My view is that you should be exposed to exam questions from early on in your training. We test our distance learning customers at three levels. Each CBT lesson is followed by a quiz of 5 to 10 questions, the purpose is to check understanding. The quiz questions require 100% pass as they are regarded as 'required knowledge', they may be CQB questions, they may be generated by us. Every group of lessons (a topic, if you like) is followed by a progress test, longer, almost always CQB questions, and with a lower 75% pass mark. This allows an early sight of exam questions and consolidates knowledge. Results from both allow us to track student progress. Finally students beat the question bank to death before the revision weeks so they have seen everything about the exam we can show them before the classroom session and are able to ask questions arising both from their study and from the CQB questions they have seen.

Using question banks on their own is foolish, in its simplest terms it means you can't understand the explanations you are given, you are reduced to learning answers. This will result in a big fat fail unless you are incredibly lucky/have a photographic memory.

[r10bbr]

hi alex, thanks for replying but i wanted an answer to the following:

the second being when browsing the relevant sites in terms of atpl exam feedback the majority people have commented that doing the last 200/300 questions of each subject is the most up to date questions that are being asked in the exams , again how true is this? as that each exam sat by individuals are generated differently thus the chance of myself seeing those 200 questions in my real exams can vary i may get 60% of those questions from the bank or i may get all new ones ... but again a lot of feedback has been said the last 200/300 questions are the ones to remember etc

also i have met students at my school who have said , all they have done is 3 months prior to their exams is hammer the bank and the questions they have done in the bank came up in their exams and they have passed with 75 % and above


thirdly does sitting the exams at different venue have a similar pattern of the questions that are repeated or asked in the exams i.e sititng at gatwick 40% bank questions compared to sitting at oxford having 10% bank questions..

[Alex Whittingham]

1. All national Authorities are required to generate their exams from the EASA CQB. Some do it by running an algorithm across the entire CQB for that subject getting x questions to meet that LO, y questions to meet another, etc. If they do that the result will be that nearly every student gets a different exam, as the pool of available questions is large. Others take a sample of questions per subject from the CQB, presumably run a validation exercise at national level (so they are not embarrassed by really bad questions) then select their questions from this smaller local database for a period. if they do that the all students will get similar exams in each subject for a period, and the same questions will keep coming up. I think the UK CAA do the latter, hence the last 160/200/300 comments you quote.

2. Only works if they have learned the base material. Three months sounds like overkill, 4 weeks per module should kill it, particularly if they have been exposed to exam questions in the learning phase.

3. In the UK - no difference. If you go outside the Uk see point 1 above.

[r10bbr]

Alex you can learn the base material but then attempting the bank you can see how ambiguous some of the answers are to the questions in such subjects such as human performance, in relations to the last 200/300 comment i mentioned its funny that not everyone shares the same view of that scenario when i asked them how was the exams.

[Alex Whittingham]

Obviously they are entitled to their opinions! You can pick and choose who you believe.

[Alex Whittingham]

You are sitting in the Netherlands? Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[paco]

Don't use just books.....

[momo95]

This thread has run it's course surely, with all the time spent posting here and talking to so many people and adding up your chances you could have spent those hours studying, it's getting a bit ridiculous now! We've all done it and some of us still are, you've been given some sound advice here already, there really is not much more people can add.

[edhelms]

Guys, in a session can I do only two subjects?

[hoduka]

Whats odd to me, is the difference between the examination systems!

I got my result at the very end of each subject, after clicking on "submit exam".

In Hungary, we have to do it in 6 sittings within 18 months, and you can do however you like, I did it 3-3-2-2-4 in five rounds.

As far as the original question, QB is a really useful tool, but if thats the only thing you are using, you will have some head scratching moment sitting there- of course it could happen if you study the material aswell.
I read/ CBT-d/youtube-d every part before hitting the bank, writing down notes, and every questions i answered wrong or were somehow intresting. There were a few which I copied various times... Plus I tried to match them in regard of their difficulty, trying to have at least one subject what I can practice on the go (Ie. no need of supplements or desk like FPL or Gennav)
Then the day before the exam, I wrapped up the flagged questions, did one in exam mode and wrote a summary of each subject.


I dont know how are with others, handwriting these stuff down really helps, as after a few hours, you just look at the lenght of the sentences and you just click on the familiar.

I was in the same shoes until recently, Its a pain, its long, its hard but its doable!
I know, there were times I was questioning the end of the last statement!

[turbopropmike]

Hi Hoduka,

I will probably sit my exams in Hungary too!. what I am doing so far is going just thro aviation exam and try my best to understand the explanations for every question not only for those I get wrong. If still there is something that is not fully clear I would go back to the books. I am using Aviation Exam because it has way better explanations,than any other question bank Ive seen. Would you recommend AE for the Hungarian NKH too, did you see many new questions (those from the ECB4)

thanks

[hoduka]

Hi Mike!

I used aviation exam aswell, I cant recall so much new questions, maybe because they were familiar from avi exam, or from the books or university studies.
From FPL there were a bunch of new (bristol books helped me there) but from Radnav, there was one new only.

There are rumors that a new bunch of questions are coming up soon, but I dont know more about that.

You can sit Austrocontol exams in Budapest aswell.

[turbopropmike]

thanks a lot guys I really appreciate the tips. I chose Hungary because I did my PPL there. So I know how the registration system ( e-hivatal) and everything else works. for countries where English is not that good or common , to implement new questions must be tougher than for the UK I imagine. In Spain also I've been told the amount of new questions is really really small.

So many pilots nowadays with 95% average passes and now with the new system ... despite the new generation of atpl students having a better grasp of the material. maybe the airlines wont be looking so much at atpl grades anymore because of the "shortage" of pilots haha

[r10bbr]

hi negan, it feels like i should have just gone to eastern europe to do my atpls lol, and just hammer the av exam bank to aid me lol, i think in general and what has been said for uk is to do bristol, but i havent met a studnet yet who has said that even hammering the bank once and doing the last 100/200 question exams has helped them with their exams in terms of passing those who have done that have said that they could only recall maybe 5-10 questions from the bank and if that..

what i wanted to ask is that dont big schools know of when easa will be adding new questions to the exams prior to exams being sat etc..

honestly my advice is to learn and use every available means of knowledge in terms of passing the atpls and aiding that knowledge by using bristol or av exams or even both, to top up the knowledge..aside from that i think nothing else can be done.

[paco]

As far as we are concerned they can add new questions every day.

Many Eastern European authorities are still using extremely old question banks (according to a student here), so expect a higher proportion of daft questions.

[turbopropmike]

I would go for ground school in the uk and then examinations in eastern europe. I think questions in one side being new and easier to understand and on the other having old questions but with difficult wording just balance each other. At the end of the day what we are going to try to do is not only focus on the questions banks but try to undertand the material as well , given we won't know to what extent new questions will appear.

[Jaair]

Surely the UK CAA aren't pumping thousands of new questions a month? I'm guessing Negan maybe you were caught right when they added a bunch in for 2018? But someone sitting the same exam in say September may already have all those questions in the bank.

[paco]

You seem to be taking this personally........

[Officer Kite]

From my experience, forget about Aviation Exam. I did a recent exam for UK CAA and from one of the subjects, none of the questions matched. From another 2 exams, I only did it because of my background experience, nothing to do with the Aviation Exam app.
They are expensive and the bank doesn’t reflect the official exams.
There are other much better options on the market, BGS for example...
Good luck!



A bank can only be as good as the feedback it receives (in the form of new questions). Regardless however, I sat my exams in Lithuania and can say without a doubt that aviationexam was my lifesaver. I would never have gotten the most strangest questions correct without having seen them already and been given the (if twisted) logic to them. I can also say for certain that the vast majority of my colleagues would back me up on that. I also know many other students sitting the exams under other European authorities and they also say the same about aviationexam. Also didn't think it was too expensive? .. certainly nothing compared to what i was paying to sit in class and learn a fraction of relevant stuff :-)

Both bgs and avexam have their merits. For short and sweet explanations it's BGS, however for decent explanations and if you want to use the bank to study a topic in itself then it's avexam with their in depth explanations.

I suppose it can depend either on the caa you're using and your personal luck of the draw in the exam.