Airnorth Cancellng Flights

[Stationair8]

ABC news reporting that Airnorth are cancelling flights due to pilot shortage.

Interesting times.

[ViPER_81]

I looked up all their job openings. Minimum 1000 hours, 250 multi command preferably with turboprop hours.

Everyone wants people with experience, nobody wants to give the experience.

[rubbish_binny]

^ Those are not ridiculous minimums. Some of the lowest in the country - the problem is their pay is too..

[neville_nobody]

They're just running a headline so they can justify importing pilots.

[ViPER_81]

^ Those are not ridiculous minimums. Some of the lowest in the country - the problem is their pay is too..

Yeah I get what you are saying. But the pilot shortage is largely due to the fact that there is no way to bridge the gap from 200 hour CPL to 1000 hour with multi engine turbine experience, at least not in Australia (Excluding cadetships).

Yes, there would be a few jobs floating around in GA to bridge that gap for some people, but obviously its not enough.

[havick]

Yeah I get what you are saying. But the pilot shortage is largely due to the fact that there is no way to bridge the gap from 200 hour CPL to 1000 hour with multi engine turbine experience, at least not in Australia (Excluding cadetships).

Yes, there would be a few jobs floating around in GA to bridge that gap for some people, but obviously its not enough.

Ive said this in another topic but with the money on offer and aircraft type, there’s going to be very few takers for a 457 visa given what’s on offer all over the world in current times.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Re the previous post, largely you can thank CASA for that, with the collapse of the low/middle range of GA. I know there are other contributory factors, but the weight of over regulation, and CASA "anti-business" micromanagement is, by far, the dominant reason.
Tootle pip!!

[andmiz]

Not particularly surprised. I turned down an interview offered a few years ago. Their package, conditions and recruitment professionalism hoisted numerous red-flags. It seems the chickens are coming home to roost.

[pilotchute]

There are people with those mins but airlines are just still too picky.

I was renctly asked if I had 500 hours planned IFR in a twin. I said no and the conversation pretty much ended there. That was on top of the MCC course they wanted me to do and the IFR renewal they told me I had to do because it was just under 6 months to go.

Its a company induced shortage really.

[ViPER_81]

Folks,
Re the previous post, largely you can thank CASA for that, with the collapse of the low/middle range of GA. I know there are other contributory factors, but the weight of over regulation, and CASA "anti-business" micromanagement is, by far, the dominant reason.
Tootle pip!!

I dont claim to have any industry insight into any of this, but that seems to be the general consensus.

So what happens next? Assuming the GA industry isn't coming back to the levels it used to be, how do we bridge the gap and stop airlines claiming a pilot shortage and importing pilots ? (whether they actually get any pilots is another issue).

If airlines can take cadets and put them in the RHS of Dash8's and ATR's, why cant regional airlines like this take 250hr CPL's with MECIR and put them in the RHS?

[TBM-Legend]

Folks,
Re the previous post, largely you can thank CASA for that, with the collapse of the low/middle range of GA. I know there are other contributory factors, but the weight of over regulation, and CASA "anti-business" micromanagement is, by far, the dominant reason.
Tootle pip!!


GA has also hit rock bottom because of communications. Face to face meetings etc replaced by Skype, Facetime etc etc. Drones doing property surveys etc along with other measures. The consolidation of farms and reduction in mining etc also reduces the needs. The RFDS and other medical mobs have increased their fleets but also their requirements.

Airport charges and rents plus noone wants to live in the back of beyond to fly or fix aircraft anymore. All this adds up. Too easy to single out CASA which of course is but one factor.

[NGsim]

If airlines can take cadets and put them in the RHS of Dash8's and ATR's, why cant regional airlines like this take 250hr CPL's with MECIR and put them in the RHS?

Because airlines have a (comparatively) huge amount of resources to deal with individuals like that. I hate to tell you this but a CPL with 250 hours barely knows the basics of flying a light aircraft let alone something more complex.

[industry insider]

TL is owned by Bristow, they are making helicopter pilots redundant as their helicopter business continues to contract. I am sure some would have FW licences, perhaps invest in their staff, engender longer term loyalty by re-training where possible and use them as P2 in the meantime?

[krismiler]

Every airline has hundreds of applications on their books but they are all from the same pool of pilots. The number of suitable applicants is much smaller and will be taken up by more desirable employers. Airnorth have probably found that their shortlist has thinned out considerably once they started calling people, very few pilots will bother to inform companies they have previously applied to that they have found other jobs and want to withdraw their applications.

The bigger regionals are better set up when it comes to bringing low timers up to standard, Airnorth would probably be used to dealing with someone who has a few years experience on twins already and slots in easily.

Similar operators in other countries without a large GA sector have managed to deal with new joiners with zero experience. Australian regionals may have to start doing the same and bring their pay levels up if they want to compete for a declining number of applicants.

[PoppaJo]

How many AN pilots have gone to Emirates? As many as Rex?

[Berealgetreal]

They should get some cheap imports.

[VH DSJ]

A number of Aussies in the US with time on the E175. Do they take DEFO on the Ejet or does everyone start on the props?

[wishiwasupthere]

DEFO on the Ejet.

https://www.seek.com.au/job/35247075?type=standard&userqueryid=b748e9a727dbca4af351c83a3f7b1e97-3166536

[cessnapete]

NGsim
Rubbish. Because of small GA and Military experience availability European airlines have been doing just that with complete safety for some time. With the correct selection and flight training many European airlines put 250 + hours pilots into RHS of A320/B737.
BA and EasyJet. (Europe’s Jetstar) for example. After Type Rating and Base Training extensive route training, in my airline 50 sectors with Training Captain, they have been safe and productive pilots.
It just needs the airline resources to do it.

[ring gear]

Very True Industry Insider.

There has been a significant experienced resource in the Helo industry of quite experienced IFR experienced pilots in both Offshore and SAR EMS....probably a large portion of which with F/W licence albeit a basic commercial or PVT...but will possess at least a ATPL(H).

If not already with F/W licence, its not that hard to learn F/W from Helo. All the procedural stuff is largely the same when it comes to IFR. It really is about basic differences in handling, aerodynamics and systems (pressurisation etc) Many MultiEng helicopters are more complex in Systems and flight controls and powertrains than many multi eng regional Jets.

Another possibility is to remove any "max Age" limitations and utilise the big advantage that CASA does allow....flying beyond 65 y/o while you can still maintain the ATPL medical.....agreed, some people do get more dithering as they get older. But that should be up to company training departments to be critical enough and have the balls to say to the individuals that your time is up.....

This is one advantage that this part of the world has over the European(EASA)/ ME/Asia etc....without lifting these max age limits ...they will inevitably run into a major pilot shortage.

Some companies prevent pilots flying beyond 65y/o. Others quietly discriminate against hiring pilots older than 60y/o. There is still a lot of experience tied up those individuals and can be of excellent value to any company who wishes to take the "risk" and utilise it, rather than feeling threatened by them.

As already espoused through this forum and elsewhere...the looming pilot shortage is not unsolvable. It is also largely created by a myopic industry which fails to look for lateral solutions both inside and outside the "traditional" source of pilots and fails to identify where it has artificially built hurdles to inhibit pilot numbers rather than to increase pilot numbers.

Food for thought......

cheers

[NGsim]

NGsim
Rubbish. Because of small GA and Military experience availability European airlines have been doing just that with complete safety for some time. With the correct selection and flight training many European airlines put 250 + hours pilots into RHS of A320/B737.
BA and EasyJet. (Europe’s Jetstar) for example. After Type Rating and Base Training extensive route training, in my airline 50 sectors with Training Captain, they have been safe and productive pilots.
It just needs the airline resources to do it.

I think you should re-read sir. I said it's not possible for regional companies without the almost infinite resource airlines are able to throw at low timers.

[Bend alot]

Very True Industry Insider.

There has been a significant experienced resource in the Helo industry of quite experienced IFR experienced pilots in both Offshore and SAR EMS....probably a large portion of which with F/W licence albeit a basic commercial or PVT...but will possess at least a ATPL(H).

If not already with F/W licence, its not that hard to learn F/W from Helo. All the procedural stuff is largely the same when it comes to IFR. It really is about basic differences in handling, aerodynamics and systems (pressurisation etc) Many MultiEng helicopters are more complex in Systems and flight controls and powertrains than many multi eng regional Jets.

Another possibility is to remove any "max Age" limitations and utilise the big advantage that CASA does allow....flying beyond 65 y/o while you can still maintain the ATPL medical.....agreed, some people do get more dithering as they get older. But that should be up to company training departments to be critical enough and have the balls to say to the individuals that your time is up.....

This is one advantage that this part of the world has over the European(EASA)/ ME/Asia etc....without lifting these max age limits ...they will inevitably run into a major pilot shortage.

Some companies prevent pilots flying beyond 65y/o. Others quietly discriminate against hiring pilots older than 60y/o. There is still a lot of experience tied up those individuals and can be of excellent value to any company who wishes to take the "risk" and utilise it, rather than feeling threatened by them.

As already espoused through this forum and elsewhere...the looming pilot shortage is not unsolvable. It is also largely created by a myopic industry which fails to look for lateral solutions both inside and outside the "traditional" source of pilots and fails to identify where it has artificially built hurdles to inhibit pilot numbers rather than to increase pilot numbers.

Food for thought......

cheers


But that should be up to company training departments to be critical enough and have the balls to say to the individuals that your time is up.....



Do this once, Fair Work will rip you a new one! (rectum).

Do it again, and you wont be an airline anymore.

You can not simple get rid of a person in Australia and replace them with a younger more productive one.

They have to fail to do the job (task), not just take longer or be more fussy. It would be up to the employer to reschedule flights for this dithery employee or retrain then.

[22k]

For all of the airlines in Australia.....

PAY MORE MONEY AND GIVE DECENT SCHEDULES.

Problem solved, so many will return from overseas.

The rest is just playing around the edges.

[pithblot]

Anyone prepared to say what Air North pay its pilots?

I remember one manager in the company saying, of the glut of pilots some years ago, that the recruitment process was something like "go outside to the nearest tree and give it a shake. What hangs on is monkeys and what falls out is pilots". The pay back then reflected this sentiment.

Times have certainally changed, but has Air North changed with them?
Just askin.

There is a bunch of pilots in Darwin who could all easily slip into an AN seat but they probably wouldn't want to take the pay cut to do it....

Last time I looked on the AFAP website, CareFlight were offering its Darwin based pilots a starting wage of $122,000 pa plus allowances, super, six weeks annual leave, salary sacrifice etc.
Good coin to fly a King Air.
Air North needs to up the ante.

[Gnadenburg]

NGsim
Rubbish. Because of small GA and Military experience availability European airlines have been doing just that with complete safety for some time. With the correct selection and flight training many European airlines put 250 + hours pilots into RHS of A320/B737.
BA and EasyJet. (Europe’s Jetstar) for example. After Type Rating and Base Training extensive route training, in my airline 50 sectors with Training Captain, they have been safe and productive pilots.
It just needs the airline resources to do it.


Extensive route training! That about sums it up. You teach an inexperienced guy how to fly the same hour, over and over again. And most airlines will skimp for commercial expedience at giving these cadets the depth of training they need.

Seen it over and over. Thankfully technology is protecting the travelling public but when something goes wrong, they expect Captain Sullenberger up front. And it aint so.

[donkey767]

Anyone prepared to say what Air North pay its pilots?

I remember one manager in the company saying, of the glut of pilots some years ago, that the recruitment process was something like "go outside to the nearest tree and give it a shake. What hangs on is monkeys and what falls out is pilots". The pay back then reflected this sentiment.

Times have certainally changed, but has Air North changed with them?
Just askin.

There is a bunch of pilots in Darwin who could all easily slip into an AN seat but they probably wouldn't want to take the pay cut to do it....

Last time I looked on the AFAP website, CareFlight were offering its Darwin based pilots a starting wage of $122,000 pa plus allowances, super, six weeks annual leave, salary sacrifice etc.
Good coin to fly a King Air.
Air North needs to up the ante.

The only people I can see that would be willing to put their hand up for AN will be the charter pilots up there. You’d be crazy to jump from CareFlight or even the Dash 8 - it’d most likely still be a pay cut for a Dash FO to go to the Ejet as an FO. The only ones who may jump ship are the ones who want to remain in Darwin long term and fly a jet.

[Professional Amateur]

Reading lots of job posts stating that the company is 'dynamic'. What does that mean? A complete sh1t fight due to lack of pilots? Sounds fun!

I fly ME, MC RW IFR; a frustrating position to be in knowing full well it is flown to cat a yet am unemployable in a fw role because I don't have 250 command of a 172....off to the USA it is where there are rotor transition programs.

One day the Aus carriers will catch up.

[gulliBell]

NGsim
Rubbish....

Yep, exactly. I don't see any issue at all putting a CPL with 250 hours in the RHS of an A320/B737 etc. If they pass the checks, let them do the job. If not, let them go.

Plenty of examples where this is being done successfully....China Southern are putting hundreds of pilots with that experience into their operation every year.

[logansi]

IMO there is a shortage of one thing in the Australian aviation industry and that's entry level Multi Jobs. Unless you are lucky enough to get into a charter company that has the opportunity of progression on multi's its very difficult.

I honestly think that the best option for a young guy whom wants to make a jet caerer in Australia today would be to spend a couple of years getting up to 1500 hours single time with multi ir rating and heading of to America for 4 or so years and getting Jet command time and then coming back home meeting the mins for all F/O jobs downunder.

[Capn Bloggs]

ABC News!!!!!

[cessnapete]

I think you should re-read sir. I said it's not possible for regional companies without the almost infinite resource airlines are able to throw at low timers.

NG sim
Apologies, yes this training regime I describe can only be done by the larger well resourced airlines.
But it has been brought about by the same AUS problems, in that there is now no large GA or Military experience to draw from in Europe.
And for all those who want to recruit only Capt Sullenbergs as their new hires. Where do you get them from?

[Aviatrix91]

Airnorth is a good company to work for, pay is compatible with other similar regionals, just struggling like all other regionals due to the majors all recruiting. Requirements are pretty standard. Need more experienced guys as training department is stretched thin.

[dr dre]

Because airlines have a (comparatively) huge amount of resources to deal with individuals like that. I hate to tell you this but a CPL with 250 hours barely knows the basics of flying a light aircraft let alone something more complex.

There’s lots of small regional airlines in the EU as well, they only have a small number of aircraft and nowhere near the resources of, say a Lufthansa to run a fully fledged cadet program, but they manage to crew their aircraft.

The problem is with the initial CPL training in this country. After gaining a CPL you aren’t even really trusted to fly a light 4 seater piston single in charter ops without additional training and quals. For jobs that barely even exist anymore as GA is dying. Most regionals thought they’d just be able keep employing pilots with a few thousand hours of multi piston time. But those aircraft (along with the singles) are just not there in the same numbers as they once were.

Flying schools in the EU and most of the world can get you up to a standard to fly RHS of a turboprop or jet after 250 hours. Through a combination of proper selection and focused training.

It’s up to schools in Australia to change their mentality to match that. The shortage now is for multi crew airline pilots, not GA charter pilots. That’s what the ab-initio training should reflect. If the schools here aren’t producing that level of student then of course airlines will look to employ pilots from overseas.

[Aviatrix91]

I think we are also starting to see a generational shift where newly qualified CPL pilots think it's their devine right to go straight to a shiny jet and uniform instead of putting in the effort and sacrifice to find jobs. No longer are they willing to door knock dropping off resumes, move around the country or do basic jobs like cleaning aircraft in order to get a foot in the door. Instead they want all the money and privllage with out sacrifice or doing any of the hard work it takes to get there.

[pilotchute]

I have 2000 hours consisting of 300 in a 210 and 1500 in a Caravan and a tiny bit of PC12 time. Plenty of NT wet season experience but because I have less than 100 hours multi I am not worthy to sit in the RHS of anything in Australia.

How have we come to this?

[cessnapete]

In Europe you'd be snapped up for an airline job tomorrow!

[Duck Pilot]

I believe that Airnorth have already been down the cadet pilot path as well, the cadets were bought in from another airline, don’t recall the specific details although I recall hearing this from an Airnorth trainer and checker. Not sure what the situation is now.

22K is correct, I live in Darwin and far exceed Airnorth’s minimum requirements however for me to go and work for them I would have to take a substantial salary cut. Admittedly I’m not employed in the aviation industry anymore however I’d certainly get back into flying if the T and Cs were more competitive.

[Luggage]

In Europe you'd be snapped up for an airline job tomorrow!

No you would not. I have over 5000 hours, multiple jet type ratings, a twin turbo prop type rating.

I have over 4000 multi time, 2700 hours PIC which include 1700 hours multi turbine PIC, an FAA ATP, EASA ATPL, CASA ATPL, South African CPL/IR-Multi and I still get told i need 500 on type for European jobs.

I work in the US flying a jet for an airline and am battling to get an interview back in Aus or Europe with an airline.

I know 10000 hour pilots in Europe who cannot get jobs because they dont have 500 hours on type. Its a joke.

[training wheels]

Jetstar NZ Dash 8 DEC minimums .. first time they're accepting people without 500 multi-PIC if you have 1000 hours as FO on aircraft greater than MTOW 13,000 KG.

https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/careers/pilots-jobs/new-zealand-q300-direct-entry-captains/1530452

And Network also has just advertised similar minimum requirements too. How long before Air North and the others requiring 250/500 multi-PIC (for an FO position) follow suit? Surely experience as an RPT FO flying multi-engine turbine is just as valuable as 500 PIC multi-engine piston?

[framer]

Surely experience as an RPT FO flying multi-engine turbine is just as valuable as 500 PIC multi-engine piston? that depends on what job you are going for.
If you are wanted as an FO then yes. If you are wanted as a Captain then it’s debatable.

[training wheels]

that depends on what job you are going for.
If you are wanted as an FO then yes. If you are wanted as a Captain then it’s debatable.

I was referring to FO jobs in Aus. The small airlines like Cobham, Air North, Skippers and until recently, Network, required 500 multi PIC for an FO job. I've worked in 3 different countries and that requirement for an FO position is only unique to regional airlines in Australia.

[Gnadenburg]

Flying schools in the EU and most of the world can get you up to a standard to fly RHS of a turboprop or jet after 250 hours. Through a combination of proper selection and focused training.

Having flown with low time MPL/ Cadet co-pilots in the RHS of wide body and narrow body airliners I just wonder what your standard is? Regulatory minimums? A standard so bare-bones that the operation is continuously exposed and needlessly vulnerable?

It's not the air force. The 150+ of civilian hours of training is waypoint to waypoint, flying the same hour A to B, over and over again. It's very limited training and severely lacking in critical areas that are not known to regulators and covered up by industry players. The instances of inexperienced co-pilots, breaking down in early events in high stress human factors scenarios goes largely unreported. I'd go as far to say it's an industry cover up.

I don't believe the risk is worth taking in Australia. I can't believe its being pushed by pilots? Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots.

[ViPER_81]

I don't believe the risk is worth taking in Australia. I can't believe its being pushed by pilots? Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots.


So what's the solution then? With the known shortage of GA jobs in Australia for fresh CPL's to bridge the experience gap, where is this experience going to come from?


Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience? Or accept that Australia is just incapable of fostering new pilots and that the majority of Airline jobs, regional and mainline will have to come from overseas?

[wishiwasupthere]

Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience?

The majority of new CPL holders don't even leave the comfort of home on the east coast to go north and find entry level GA jobs (that are definitely there) but expect to send out resumes via email and walk into a job, and then complain that they can't find work.

[Gnadenburg]

So what's the solution then?

I'd suggest companies stop resisting wage growth. Wage growth will bring home expatriates and young pilots will find a way to gain the experience.

I've just flown this week with young pilots who have "fled" Australia having flown with these "General Aviation" with jets companies. The stories are horrific. The contempt and lack of respect from management from some of these companies will only drive further shortages.

[dr dre]

Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots.

Colgan 3407 had nothing to do with the amount of hours each pilot had. It was caused by an incompetent Captain who had failed numerous checkrides who shouldn’t have been in that seat. And an FO who was severely fatigued, sick and who no proper training for poor weather conditions. Both had prior GA time before joining the airline.

The US 1500hr rule was one of the most knee jerk reactions ever. It’s caused regional airlines to basically recruit anyone with 1500 flying hours and a pulse to occupy the right hand seat of an E-jet (even people with previously disqualifying conditions like drink driving convictions are being snapped up) and then upgraded to Captain at the bare minimum 1000hrs FO time (just over a years flying) even if they believe they are not ready/competent enough for a Captaincy. If I was in the US frankly I’d avoid flying on one of their regional carriers. Not worth the risk.

[pilotchute]

Right let's sort this out. The 1500 hour was more to do with lifting pilots salaries and conditions than having experience up the front. A regional FO at the time of Colgan made 18k a year. Thats food stamp wages. Pilots couldn't afford to move out of home. They were sleeping in crew rooms. Thats what happens when you put 250 hour kids in jets. They work for nothing.

[dr dre]

Right let's sort this out. The 1500 hour was more to do with lifting pilots salaries and conditions than having experience up the front. A regional FO at the time of Colgan made 18k a year. Thats food stamp wages. Pilots couldn't afford to move out of home. They were sleeping in crew rooms. Thats what happens when you put 250 hour kids in jets. They work for nothing.

The Colgan 3407 pilots weren’t “250 hour kids”. The FO for instance had over 1500hrs of instructing experience in beautiful CAVOK weather in Arizona, all that experience served her well in icing conditions in upstate New York didn’t it? Didn’t stop her from cross country commutes because she couldn’t afford to live in her base and having to work a second job? Didn’t stop her from calling in sick when she was sneezing on the CVR?

[Flyboy1987]

So what's the solution then? With the known shortage of GA jobs in Australia for fresh CPL's to bridge the experience gap, where is this experience going to come from?


Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience? Or accept that Australia is just incapable of fostering new pilots and that the majority of Airline jobs, regional and mainline will have to come from overseas?

I’m in GA, all my friends are in GA. We are all “stuck” in GA.
I understand general aviation may not be what it was 20 years ago, but it still exists. There is no shortage of us with multi ifr that can’t seem to quite get out of ga and into an airline.
The problem is for a few of us, we don’t seem to be what HR want up the front of their aircraft. Maybe we answered a “how does that make you feel” question wrong? We have all the hour requirements, the school marks, the atpls, but the hr recruiters with all their aviation wisdom seem to think they know better.
In the past 12 months Airnorth have turned down 2 good friends of mine, that were well known great guys in ga in the NT...they are now doing command training with a much larger regional operator in Aus.

[pilotchute]

I'm talking about the culture of hiring inexperienced people driving down wages not the experience of the actual flight crew. Read the post again.

[Bend alot]

Seems the problem is Regionals not dropping standards - should they and why (well thought answers preferred).

Seems Regionals should increase pay and conditions to attract lower qualified staff - Where does this extra money come from to pay for extra pay and conditions AND extra training. (Many of the routes already have government/mining hand outs to make them viable as it is.)

Seems there is actually no shortage of pilots in Australia at all, just ones that miss a criteria to leap over the next frog.

[Setright]

I think we are also starting to see a generational shift where newly qualified CPL pilots think it's their devine right to go straight to a shiny jet and uniform instead of putting in the effort and sacrifice to find jobs. No longer are they willing to door knock dropping off resumes, move around the country or do basic jobs like cleaning aircraft in order to get a foot in the door. Instead they want all the money and privllage with out sacrifice or doing any of the hard work it takes to get there.

You are describing the ''supply and demand'' equation.

The supply has dried up...........but the demand hasn't.

[ChaseIt]

I’m in GA, all my friends are in GA. We are all “stuck” in GA.
I understand general aviation may not be what it was 20 years ago, but it still exists. There is no shortage of us with multi ifr that can’t seem to quite get out of ga and into an airline.
The problem is for a few of us, we don’t seem to be what HR want up the front of their aircraft. Maybe we answered a “how does that make you feel” question wrong? We have all the hour requirements, the school marks, the atpls, but the hr recruiters with all their aviation wisdom seem to think they know better.
In the past 12 months Airnorth have turned down 2 good friends of mine, that were well known great guys in ga in the NT...they are now doing command training with a much larger regional operator in Aus.

couldn't agree more! :ok:

[cLeArIcE]

I herd (admittily second hand) of a couple of e3 guys on the Embraer in the USA that apparently enquired at air north. When they herd they had to pay for their own endorsement (even though they already have one) and the conditions, they could barely contain their laughter.

[Brakerider]

I herd (admittily second hand) of a couple of e3 guys on the Embraer in the USA that apparently enquired at air north. When they herd they had to pay for their own endorsement (even though they already have one) and the conditions, they could barely contain their laughter.

Bogus info, AirNorth have always paid for the endorsement, albeit with a bond. Though I agree the conditions are laughable to live in Darwin

[cLeArIcE]

Bogus info, AirNorth have always paid for the endorsement, albeit with a bond. Though I agree the conditions are laughable to live in Darwin

Thanks mate, good to know. To be honest, I wondered about that bit. But the fact still remains,
If Air North offered some decent terms there would be (some) type rated guys willing to come home. They've also flown the aircraft in far more challenging conditions than Air North encounter.

[BusyB]

I know lots of experienced Aussi pilots who would return to Oz for any flying job that offered a living wage for a family. Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.

[Jetsbest]

Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.
Because the companies that pay for advertising ‘own’the media. Pilots can’t.🤔😩

[Brakerider]

I know lots of experienced Aussi pilots who would return to Oz for any flying job that offered a living wage for a family. Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.

To joe public, $94k to fly an E170 as an FO looks like amazing money. To anyone in the know, it’s really not.

[BusyB]

Jetsbest,

No journalists with integrity in Oz?!!!!

[havick]

Where’s Havick? He could probably shed some light on the transition for you. I think he swapped rotary for regional airline flying in the states....

Not sure what the Aussie regionals think of helicopter time though...

The transition is easy enough, only thing for me was learning all the company information and procedures for de-icing and all that goes along with winter ops in the US. Everything else falls into place at about 100 hours on the line. That being said I already had my fixed wing quals and hours for an FAA ATP so it for me it was just the type rating and line training.

As a side note; in the US there are no bonds for training at all. You will uograde as soon as you hit the 1000 hours required for captain, so basically a year after you get checked to line unless you already have some jet PIC time from corporate jets which count towards the 1000 hours.

[Aviatrix91]

Thanks mate, good to know. To be honest, I wondered about that bit. But the fact still remains,
If Air North offered some decent terms there would be (some) type rated guys willing to come home. They've also flown the aircraft in far more challenging conditions than Air North encounter.

Coming from experience, the pay and conditions are similar to all other regionals in Australia. It is a resonable salary for the role. Your not wide body captains so don't expect that sort of pay.

Those complaining that it's not enough, well anyone can say that in any industry, all it says is that one needs to rethink their spending habits.

For those complaining that they can't get a look in, your time will come. If responses are slow it's because everyone is spread thin. I had waited a lot longer waiting for other regionals.

If your being knocked back because of hours it's for a good reason. You have to have the hours for command even for an FO position otherwise when your seniority comes up for a command they won't be able to upgrade you as they don't have the resources to run ICUS programs.

[pilotchute]

I think another problem here is what else is on offer for the advertised experience required. Those hours would easily get you a Dash8/ATR job based on the east coast.

People would rather hold out for a gig down south rather than make a further time commitment to Darwin. Imagine getting a call from Jetstar the day after you sign a 2 year bond on the Brasilia!

[speedbird983]

On a positive note, if you want a quick command on a turbo prop (Brasilia) go to Airnorth... do your time and move on. Airnorth has its positives, home every day, days aren’t huge other than centre run to Alice Springs (although contract might or had ended) Direct entry on the jet would also be good for the log book. Living in Darwin has its challenges but could be worse.

[206greaser]

Pilotchute it would take about 2 months or so at Jetstar to pay back the bond for a Brasilia (at Airnorth) endorsement! What is it about $7k pft! Not nothing, but not much either.

[Toruk Macto]

Watched many pilots say no to a better job because they just signed a bond . I’d say nearly everyone of them would have taken a short term loss for long term gain if they had their time again . The extra pay will take care of bond in time and while your waiting for that to be paid off your flying the one you want and getting better experience .

[pilotchute]

I find it almost impossible to believe that the training bond for a multi crew turbo prop is $7k. Maybe in 1985.

[havick]

I find it almost impossible to believe that the training bond for a multi crew turbo prop is $7k. Maybe in 1985.

Haven’t there already been rulings that bonds in Australia are not enforceable?

[Duck Pilot]

If a pilot with experience on type joined any airline, it’s still going to cost them lots of money to train the pilot up and get he or she online, particularly if the pilot has been off the type or out of flying for a while. What’s really the difference in a non type rated and type rated pilot with relevant experience on other similar types from a cost of training perspective? Probably next to nothing. Airlines are happy to take the profits, however they like any other business that employs technical people should be investing money into training which is at their expense, not the employees should circumstances change.

[Wiggley]

Haven’t there already been rulings that bonds in Australia are not enforceable?

Only if the the agreement is not ratified by / registered with FWA.

[206greaser]

Indeed pilotchute? Perhaps you should read the Airnorth EBA? 1985? Hardly! More like 2005! 😉

[206greaser]

Apologies Pilotechute! Here are some amendments for my post. 2006 and $8750.

[Bend alot]

Haven’t there already been rulings that bonds in Australia are not enforceable?

HR look for people that have these thoughts, and don't want them sitting up front of shiny jets.

Hats of to the boys and girls that worked out their bond time (their agreement), and I hope they have or will achieve their desired jobs.

[pilotchute]

Wow, Airnorth are working to an EBA from 2006? One that doesnt even mention jets? The bond amount said it was dependant on hourly rate so I assume thst figure is based on doing the rating in the aircraft? Pretty sure thats not allowed anymore.

[krismiler]

A pilot with experience on type has already proved capable of jumping through the hoops and should pass through the training and checking easily without extra SIM hours or sectors. Once released he won't be a burden on the line Captains.

[Aviatrix91]

Apologies Pilotechute! Here are some amendments for my post. 2006 and $8750.

Actually it's $24,000, not in EBA but on the letter of offer you sign in order to begin employment.

[206greaser]

Soooo not legal then? Bravo TL!

[pilotchute]

Greaser so you have gone from defending Airnorth to ridiculing them?

[havick]

HR look for people that have these thoughts, and don't want them sitting up front of shiny jets.

Hats of to the boys and girls that worked out their bond time (their agreement), and I hope they have or will achieve their desired jobs.

Training bonds say more about the company than anything else. They probably miss out on some decent applicants by having a training bond.

[drunk_pilot]

Actually it's $24,000, not in EBA but on the letter of offer you sign in order to begin employment.

I’m not familiar with the Airnorth contract, but have the pilot salaries been updated and increased outside of the 2006 EBA amounts like the bond has been? Seems like a double standard if not!

[206greaser]

Pilotchute, huh? It was ridicule from the outset.
Their ROSO is ridiculous! It costs them probably 3 times what they are asking for in return for the endo. My main point would be they need to fix their bloody EBA!
As it has been pointed out, unless the bond is in the EBA it’s unenforceable. An amendment in the way of a letter of offer isn’t enforceable.

Cheers,
Greaser.

[tfx]

Okay someone - what flight time do you need to be a 737 FO in Europe, and ditto in the USA?

[havick]

Okay someone - what flight time do you need to be a 737 FO in Europe, and ditto in the USA?

In the US you need an ATP, carriers will hire you with ATP mins and do your ATP license test as part of the type rating prior to doing IOE. Europe, no idea.

[cessnapete]

tfx
In Europe many Legacy/Loco carriers are taking cadet pilots from the Training Colleges with a Twin Rating CPL/IR and ATP exams completed with total 250 ish hours.
They then complete a normal Company 737/A320 Type Rating and aircraft Base Training.. Extensive Route Training, in my UK airline at least 50 sectors u/t before being released as F/O on two crew ops..
BA and EasyJet in UK been doing this with complete safety for a number of years.
There is now no large ex Military or GA background in Europe to supply Capt Sullys as new copilots!!

[Stationair8]

Perhaps the CEO, will be bringing over a few a pilots from his last airline?

[bafanguy]

Okay someone - what flight time do you need to be a 737 FO ...in the USA?

tfx,

If you're asking as someone without a green card or US citizenship, I'm not aware of any US 737 operators taking E3s. Someone will correct that if I've overlooked anything.

A regional is your best bet if you want to head up here. Nothing wrong with ERJ/CRJ experience as a springboard to other things.

As for 737 FO spots, it ranges in the 1500-2500 hour area by my casual recollection. There's quite a range of quality to those jobs. Google knows everything so we don't have to.

[Dreamiator]

The majority of new CPL holders don't even leave the comfort of home on the east coast to go north and find entry level GA jobs (that are definitely there) but expect to send out resumes via email and walk into a job, and then complain that they can't find work.

Mate I’ve been in Darwin since September last year, been to every operator multiple times with no luck! And I’ve got the standard CPL/MECIR 220 hrs and 10 hrs PIC on a 210. ATPL’s done too! Never expected to jump straight into a jet job but always expected to start from the bottom and work my way up but the fact is no one’s hiring without you knowing someone or having a LAME’s qualification or similar! This is how many pilots give up on their dreams and turn to other jobs/careers! At the end of the day we all need some form of income to support our families and eventually start to realise that it’s all just a pipe dream.

[pilotchute]

I have seen very competent people not get hired because they "didn't talk much" and people who had no business in an aircraft get a job because the "liked footy".

You can have the best CV, dress the smartest and have a great check ride but still miss out because someone else is more charismatic. Sad but true.

[romeocharlie]

I have seen very competent people not get hired because they "didn't talk much" and people who had no business in an aircraft get a job because the "liked footy".

You can have the best CV, dress the smartest and have a great check ride but still miss out because someone else is more charismatic. Sad but true.

Probably true, but if the charismatic person wasn't dressed well, have a good check ride or have a legible CV to start with - they wouldn't have got the job either.

Insurance requirements may dictate how low a company can set their hourly requirements, but companies such as Air North will have to start paying more for premiums so they can lower their minimums and compete with other regional and international carriers - excluding the 'low hour' argument.

[The Green Goblin]

Dreamiator,

You’d be lucky to get a job in Darwin with those hours even when GA was pumping.

Darwin was second or third job territory. Used to need at least 1000 hours and some wet season experience back in the day.

Try your luck further west.

[206greaser]

My sentiments exactly Goblin. Weren’t Gumby’s just advertising for someone with those mins like last week? Other than that D-hole isn’t the right place with those hours even in a shortage.

[megan]

You’d be lucky to get a job in Darwin with those hours even when GA was pumpingYou can be lucky. Back when it was pumping lad in his teens flew in on the 2330 commercial with $90 in his pocket, bare CPL, and had a job at 0830 the next morning, having walked the rounds with suit case in tow, on a 210 at an Aboriginal community. The exception maybe.

Then again there were two QF cadets who turned down the GA positions offered to them in Darwin as they wanted to remain in Sydney, not out in the sticks in hick town Darwin. Always wondered if QF retained them.

[nexttime]

A friend of mine met the minimum requirements for the E-Jet FO position. They were told their application wasn't competitive so they would not be considered.

Pilot shortage they say?

[Jeffory]

There is no shortage.

[Dreamiator]

Telfer86 Not sure why but it seems I don't have the PM feature active! I think you can email me if you view my profile! Cheers

[framer]

Used to need at least 1000 hours and some wet season experience back in the day.
That is true. Twenty years ago I waited until I ticked over 1000hours before daring to head to Darwin ( civilisation) and presenting myself for consideration. It worked though, I was out in a community with a 206 within about a month and on a Baron-58 a year later.
I would be looking for the least desirable place possible that has an air operation and camping out there for a couple of months. Not saying it’s right or easy, that’s just the way it was twenty years ago.

[krismiler]

Very true, with those hours I'd be looking at sight seeing flights, aboriginal community, dropping skydivers, station work or possibly instructing. Emphasise any other skills you have besides flying, an electrician or diesel mechanic could be useful on a cattle station. With 500 hours you are more competitive and 1000 you can be a bit more choosey.

The first two places I worked in Australia didn't even have traffic lights. Third job was absolute heaven being in Townsville after two years in the bush, now I could tell people where I worked without having to reference it from a main centre.

Never forget that attitude goes a LONG way when job hunting. It might be a low pay job in a poor location which you're only taking because nothing else is available, but you need to appear keen and happy to work there.

[Duck Pilot]

My advice is;

Short term pain will end up in long term gain if one is focused and open minded.

Getting out of ones comfort zone into the unknown and taking a few affordable risks worked for me, certainly paid dividends on a couple of occasions. Also had a couple of sackings along the way by two dodgy operators who are no longer around.

[206greaser]

Hey Duck getting sacked by Gator doesn’t count though right? 😂

[pilotchute]

Airnorth have placed an ad in Flight Global for pilots. Visa will be offered for suitable overseas applicants.

This I think proves they are looking for rated E170 crew as I know a couple of people who have applied recently well exceeding the mins who got a "sorry not competitive" response.

They are full of s**t.

[Derfred]

Refusal to accept and train Australians who meet the requirements in favour of 457 visa holders would have to fly in the face of what is reasonable with regard to 457 visas. Please contact somebody about this - maybe start with AFAP and a letter to your local member?

[Stationair8]

Metro fleet parked up against the fence, due to no crew.

[HILFIGER-TOMMY]

Because they pay the least out of all the operators for the Metro fleet .that's why. Go to Hardy's gets 20k more .

[cessnapete]

Still don’t understand why an F/O needs 1000 hrs or more to fly a Commuter turbo- prop around not too busy parts of Australia.
Legacy Carriers in many parts of the world take 250 hr plus pilots from Training School direct onto A320/737 etc operating in busy Metropolitan airspace.
Its the selection and training not the hours that count. And of course comparable pay rates.

[NumptyAussie]

http://ir.bristowgroup.com/mobile.view?c=91226&v=203&d=1&id=2331510

"Operating revenue increased in the December 2017 quarter primarily due to an increase from our fixed wing operations as Airnorth contributed $21.0 million and $18.7 million in operating revenue for the December 2017 quarter and December 2016 quarter, respectively.

Operating loss, operating margin, adjusted EBITDA and adjusted EBITDA margin improved in the December 2017 quarter primarily due to a benefit to rent expense of $6.0 million recorded in the December 2017 quarter related to the OEM cost recoveries and the increase in operating revenue discussed above. Airnorth contributed $2.2 million and $1.1 million in adjusted EBITDA for the December 2017 quarter and December 2016 quarter, respectively.:

Maybe they improved income by minimising pilot numbers?

[The Green Goblin]

They may pay less for a metro. However it was always a stepping stone into the company to fly other stuff.

Most folk had a bras command within a couple of years of joining and were on the jet within 3. In fact a few had jet commands within 5 years.

Or 20K more for a career of flying the intervention industry to the outposts in a stinking hot swearingen sweat box.

Nothing wrong with Hardy. Great company. Especially considering you can go from a single engine piston pilot to a metro captain. Or the hallowed conquest. However I’d happily take the haircut to go to Airnorth and wait for a major to send me south. Or somewhere further north. ‘Great success’.

Sad that the old girls are parked up against the fence. They’ve been talking about punting them for at least ten years. I suppose Sharp will get another few shortly?

[INTERESTED BYSTANDER]

206 greaser. Duck Pilot did not get sacked from Alligator. Make sure of your facts before you open your mouth.

[206greaser]

Cool your jets champ. I was being facetious...

[The Green Goblin]

That doesn’t seem right when most airlines just lease them.

With the parent companies pockets there’d be a reason th jet is parked up. Perhaps there is no work for it?

[LostProperty]

Just following on from the last post. It does indeed seem that there is an AN E170 which has been sitting outside of the hangar for the past few months with no engines. No money left in the piggy bank I’m told.

How long can this last?It's interesting because that would most likely be VH-ANT which has not flown since 23rd February and as far as I know it is the youngest E170 in the fleet. They have also used it more than the others on their Toowoomba - Melbourne service and even took it to the Avalon Air Show last year - don't know if that was a charter or if the aircraft was on display.

[continueapproach737]

theres always more than meets the eyes, perhaps a defect with the engine which is why it is engineless awaiting on new or repair

[WannaBeBiggles]

Noticed they're advertising for another Manager Flight Training & Standards, did they not fill this position or has there been another go through in quick succession?

[terminus mos]

From the Bristow 10K SEC Filing

Airnorth contributed $17.2 million in operating revenue for both the March 2018 and 2017 quarters, and a negative $1.4 million and a negative $0.7 million in adjusted EBITDA for the March 2018 and 2017 quarters,

Airnorth also has $13m+ of debt. 4x leased EMB170s and a few turboprops that are old and not earning any serious revenue. Not sure where TL is going but I bet that Bristow regrets paying $30m + to buy it in early 2015.

[Bend alot]

Will Roger buy it back?

[topend3]

If bristow ever wanted out the routes could be picked by QF or VA run with 717s or F100s. Ditch all the prop routes and Alliance picks up the charter side of things.

[aussieflyboy]

Ditch all the turbo prop routes and just let people walk home aye? Or pay big $$$ to fly home in charter aircraft?

Airnorth are pretty important to a lot of Territorians, and the EJets are way better from a pax perspective then the squished up seats in a 717 or F100. The pilots need to step up and sort their well expired EBA out - PIA???

Ive heard there’s a worldwide shortage of EJet engines due to an engine issue discovered hence why Airnorth have had to park 1 up.

[LostProperty]

Good to see that as of yesterday Air North were flying all five of their EJets with VH-ANT coming back to service after seven months (it's the youngest in the fleet and has been reported here as parked without engines at Darwin for a long time). The airline has previously announced that they are dropping the Toowoomba - Cairns service sometime in October but Toowoomba - Townsville will remain.

[Daddy Fantastic]

What are the salaries for Captains and First Officers these days on the E-Jet?