APS/APC Advanced MCC/JOC courses

[ShiningHappyPeople]

Hi,

Trying to figure out where best to spend my money for MCC/JOC. My main question is, do you need to do an advanced MCC or does any MCC JOC suffice?

Would there be value doing the RYR APS MCC if its ever brought out?

Or are there better Advanced MCC's out there now?

Let me know what people think, or is all jsut a waste of money paying for a high end one?

[Reverserbucket]

For now, a stand alone MCC is enough as there's no regulatory requirement to complete a JOC course. For what it's worth, the real value is found in who delivers the training rather than the complexity or modernity of the device in my view.

[ShiningHappyPeople]

Great, thanks! I heard they're making the JOC part of it mandatory soon, but it isn't at the moment.

If you could do an advanced one that makes it more likely you'll get RYR, worth doing? (presuming they're your target airline).

Are different MCCs better for different airlines? Or as you say, just down to how good the training is?

[P40Warhawk]

MCC used to be enough, so I do NOT Agree.

JOC is the new way of sucking out more money from students pockets, but many airlines demand an MCC JOC Certificate if you want to apply in those companies.

So you NEED an JOC.

You have High End programs with CTC , L3, Simtech, Kura. Those open doors to the better airlines.

There are also cheaper options.

Anyway, once again, in todays time you NEED an JOC in many companies if you want to apply there for a position as FO.

[Reverserbucket]

As I said, there is no regulatory requirement under Part-FCL for a JOC course. If you feel adding a JOC to an MCC will enhance your chances of a job, then go ahead.

[ShiningHappyPeople]

Ok, so I gotcha about the JOC part of the MCC

But how do people feel that the advanced of APS/APC courses vary from the plain MCC/JOC?

MCC JOC - CRM Europe, Simtech.
Advanced, EPST, KURA, Wings

Worth the extra bit of money? for the extra days in the sim?

[Sleepybhudda]

Advanced MCC to cater for Jet operation is an NPA for EASA FCL.

If you can find an Advanced MCC rather than a JOC course I would do it.

[ShiningHappyPeople]

So the Advanced MCCs with 40 hours in the Sim, APS - KURA - Wings - CAE they're all a waste of money?

All we really need is to just do any MCC/JOC? (some here even say we shouldn't do JOC).

Its such a confusing topic, can anyone else help and share their opinions?

[Capt Pit Bull]

What you need, from a regulatory perspective at present, is an MCC. Any MCC, any crappy old device will do.

But MCC isn't about handling skills, and most JOCs include at least a fair chunk of raw manual flying. Since raw manual flying is highly likely for a selection sim check there is clear benefit in doing one.

Most students are woefully under prepared for the fundamental handling differences between light aircraft and transport category jets.

It may also open a door at some employers.

Coming down the road is the APS requirement that will be a merger of the content of typical MCCs and JOCs.

Some providers are preparing for that by merging their MCC and JOC offerings plus adding the expected APS extras. If you find a course described as 'APS ready' or 'APS compliant' or similar then this effectively means "we intend to use this course as a submission for the APS as soon as it is possible to do so".

Due disclosure: I design and deliver MCC & JOC training as my primary activity.

[MaverickPrime]

For the uninformed amongst us, what does APS stand for? Is this some sort of new regulation?

[Capt Pit Bull]

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/NPA%202016-16.pdf

P23ish onwards

[MaverickPrime]

Cheers interesting reading!

[rudestuff]

Things are about to get a lot more expensive!

[ShiningHappyPeople]

Expensive yes, but why do we get so caught up on the cost here when compared to whats gone infront, its only a fraction.

If the MCC/JOC or APS help you A LOT in getting hired, and having a hope of getting out of debt, isn't it worth it??


Q:

If you had spent 80k. Wanted to go to Ryanair. Could do MCC for 3500. MCCJOC for 5000 or APS for 8000 - What would you do?

[parkfell]

You need to visit the establishments before parting with your hard earned cash.

As Ryanair use a 737 style of simulator, then a similar device must be very useful for your preparation?

Although a basic MCC course may be all that is presently required for your first multi pilot ac, you need more than that if Airbus / Boeing etc is in your sights...

[ShiningHappyPeople]

Hi,

I'm looking to get feedback on the best MCC courses. I don't think I can do a poll here?

Can people rank their top 3 (or 5) in choices of where they would (or did) do their MCC in order, and say why they picked number one?

like:

1. CAE
2. CTC
3. FSC

Reason for number one is : They have the best XXXXXXX


Thanks guys, be great to get everyones opinion. I had a thread up before and it didnt get much feedback

[sapperkenno]

I went to Cardiff aviation, with the initial thought process of it being a full-motion sim, reasonably priced, and I'd probably never fly a real 747. The few reviews I'd found looked great - they are a hidden gem, and the instructors are fantastic with years of experience, and all my sims were done by a 744 TRI. It's a great course, and if you put the effort in and learn the flows and SOP, you'll get a lot out of it. It's not just an attendance course, and although it's not really a technical course, you'll a good idea of what your type rating will be like.

I did the course coming from an instructional background, with a few thousand hours and had a few job options lined up, so I'm not one of the min hours sheep that go to VA just because they have a pretty 738 and fancy graphics, or simtech sausage factory. I also don't believe in such companies "placing" anyone with airline afterwards. In fact, someone I trained paid VA twice (and attended twice) to do an MCC/JOC within weeks of each other, just to be in with a shot at getting a job at Titan. If that's not another mark of how stupid the industry has become, I don't know what is.

My choices were

1. CATL - went there, they were great.
2. VA - offered me a 20% discount, but I decided against it.
3. PTT (formerly multiflight) as I worked there at the time, but they stopped providing MCC.

[Hawker400]

I'd like to use this thread to ask a MCC question instead of opening another thread.

I'm in the process of converting an ICAO ME-IR to EASA fATPL ME-IR and I'm trying to budget the MCC if it's really necessary. I've done an MCC in my country in a full motion 737 and I have +500hrs as a copilot in a multi-crew jet.

If I want to work in Europe in an airline eventually will I need to do an MCC again in EASA land? I guess I could expand the question if it's necessary at all unless you want to get a heads up on what a type rating is like?

Thanks

[virtualaviation]

In fact, someone I trained paid VA twice (and attended twice) to do an MCC/JOC within weeks of each other, just to be in with a shot at getting a job at Titan. If that's not another mark of how stupid the industry has become, I don't know what is.



Hi Sapperkenno,

It is unfortunate when somebody has to pay twice for an MCC (We do see our fair share of people coming to us having done an MCC elsewhere).

However, I'm sure the person you trained was pleased they didn't have to pay for the TR with Titan and they already had a job when doing the MCC for the second time?

[nnanR]

Hello everyone!

Could you guys please recommend me an MCC/JOC organisation with A320(i prefer full motion but the fnpt2 is just fine too) in Europe(prefer Frankfurt or the UK)? I read about the Cockpit4u, Sky4u and many said the VA and the CRMEurope. Please help me. Thank you.

[MaverickPrime]

I think Simtech have developed a new APS standard MCC, though its on their new 737 sim.

[Quentin Juillet]

Hi guys,

Please allow me to dig up this thread.

I'm currently about to finish my ATPL in Spain, Barcelona Flight School. Originally I was supposed to do the MCC on CAE's A320 FFS in El Prat for 5300€. However my school recently got the certification for their new in house 737 simulator (softek sim) and they now offer a APS MCC (40 hours instead of 20) for 6500€.

As far as I understand, the APS MCC includes a JOC and more sim hours to allow a better transition to jet engines aircrafts.

Anyone here has some feedbacks/thoughts about the real added value of the APS MCC versus the normal MCC?
I'm concerned it might be just another marketing bs from the industry...

On one hand I know that the MCC course at CAE is really solid. All students I know who been there were really satisfied and say the instruction quality was really high.
On the other hand, I know the guys in charge of the APS MCC in my school. They are by far the best instructors I've seen and they're all current commercial pilots. And I'll get an extra training that from I've heard might be requested to apply to some airlines. But that's an additional 1200€ that could maybe better spent elsewhere...

[parkfell]

APS/MCC on a B.737 is as good as it gets.
Whilst the A.320 is a more sophisticated machine, and is more modern, that is not necessarily what you want at this stage of your apprenticeship, unless you know for certain that Airbus is where you will end up.

The majority of sim assessments as part of the interview process require hand flying where you demonstrate basic skills such as accurate trimming. The Airbus auto trims. Far too easy in my view for junior birdmen starting out on the conversion from light twin to multi crew flying.

Just remember that this course is about teaching you two crew cooperation, working as a crew for the first time. It is not some form of type rating course. The clue is in the name...

Work hard at the preparation for every detail. If you don’t get a sense of déjà vu by trip 4, more effort is required.
Learn your flow checks to perfection.
It is the steepest learning curve you have yet encountered.
The acid test to discover if you are “the right stuff”.
Enjoy it, after all you are paying for it.

[Booglebox]

It's a BS attempt by various shady airlines to reduce their training costs. Do the bare minimum legally permissible MCC/JOC and don't be afraid to explain why.

[parkfell]

What Booglebox fails to appreciate is that the more exposure you have to simulator multi-crew operations, the more likely you are to be successful at the all important sim ride as part of the interview process.

Any JOC course is unregulated; those competent ATOs who historically offered MCC/JOC have essentially just had the JOC element approved and now offers APS/MCC as a regulated course.

Telling the Interviewer that APS was associated with “shady airlines” might well prove to be a show stopper?
APS is now defining a higher overall standard than MCC/JOC course which varied in contents.

[Quentin Juillet]

Thank you both for your inputs on the matter.

parkfell fair point regarding the B737 vs A320 argument. He who can do more can do less. For that reason, I actually chose to fly the Piper PA-23 Aztec over the Tecnam 2006T for the multi-engine part of the course at my school. Definitely more complex to operate but also so much more to learn from, and more fun to fly too! Price was the same though so it wasn't really the same situation.

I know another guy with more or less the same background (master's degree in math/engineering) who finished his ATPL last year with a simple MCC (no JOC). And he just passed the Ryanair selection without any problem. That also explains why I may be doubtful about the necessity of the extra expense. If you're serious about knowing your stuff properly before showing up to the interviews it seems that you don't necessarily need these non compulsory additional "prep courses" to make it through. Although I believe that a fair amount of guys I studied with during ground school would definitely need it.

Booglebox I normally only need the MCC to validate my ATPL frozen licence. That's what I can get at CAE. However the JOC is not included and I can see that some companies require it to apply. There lies the questioning about if or not I should put the extra 1200€ on the table to also have it.