Hot refuelling an AS355 F version

[haihio]

Dear fellow pilots.
I need some advice from those in the know.
I have been tasked with a job in which hot refuelling my 355 f2 would make the operation a lot easier.
I’ve only done hot refuelling in the Bell 206 and if the wind is favourable it can be done safely.
For the 355 with F engines I’m worried that the exhaust from engine N1 is too close and pointing in the direction of the refuelling point.
Any advice on this? has anyone done it before?

[gulliBell]

You mean from an OHSW point of view, the refueller being gassed by the engine exhaust?

[albatross]

Years ago did it a lot. Never had a problem. (all grounding wires and other safety precautions done.) grounding very important as it was winter ( more static )and the beast was on fixed floats too.

Also some company OPS manuals or local authorities do not allow hot refueling so check that.

[claudia]

haihio, I have been doing it for years with my 355. never had an issue.
Just don"t open any cowlings to look in, they will hit the rotor blades!

[haihio]

thanks for replies. I need to ferry pax to an lp at 10.7k and I want to do it with minimum fuel so I will probably refuel after each trip or after two Trips. My concern with hot refuelling the 355 is the hot exhaust getting close to the refuelling nozzle And a danger of fire

[gulliBell]

..My concern with hot refuelling the 355 is the hot exhaust getting close to the refuelling nozzle And a danger of fire

No chance. Put a small puddle of kerosene on the ground and try and light it with a match, see how difficult it is.

[catseye]

just make sure the person on the nozzle knows what they are doing including putting the cap and bonding on AND off

Pitcha if I could get this to workl https://www.google.com.au/search?q=bushfire+hot+refuelling+helicopter&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU697AU697&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-o-agqM_YAhVKvbwKHQ6bDB0Q_AUICigB&biw=1338&bih=754#imgrc=aQei3Nq7MDwgXM:

https://farm9.static.flickr.com/8075/8380435676_9daa0aa68d_b.jpg

[gulliBell]

..Pitcha if I could get this to workl https://www.google.com.au/search?q=bushfire+hot+refuelling+helicopter&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU697AU697&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-o-agqM_YAhVKvbwKHQ6bDB0Q_AUICigB&biw=1338&bih=754#imgrc=aQei3Nq7MDwgXM:

Are they hot refueling that 212 with no pilot at the controls?

[haihio]

Copy that. Thanks

[paco]

"No chance. Put a small puddle of kerosene on the ground and try and light it with a match, see how difficult it is."

Yeah, right.

The last airtrooper to do that in the air corps (as a demo to a new guy) set fire to a Scout. I believe he ended up as the COs driver - go figure.

[Jelico]

We happily hot refuel a 355 F model almost every day. No more risky than the 206 in my opinion. Biggest risk is flying off with the fuel caps sitting in the step. The good news is that when (not if) you do it, as long as you stay in balance it will still be there when you land haha.

[Thomas coupling]

HaiHio - so far so good, yes?

Now you're going to tell everyone that you are the single pilot and the cab will be burning and turning with you outside - refuelling - no?

[haihio]

I’ll be operating single pilot but I have ground crew for refuelling.
And by the way I’m not in easa land.

[SuperF]

TC, he will probably answer yes to all those q’s. It is a procedure that is done perfectly safely, and legally, hundreds of times a day, by hundreds of pilots.

When did you last hear of a problem with a Turbine machine having a problem. There has been the odd 44 that has burnt, but pretty sure it isn’t legal in as many places due to higher risk with Avgas

[Thomas coupling]

http://airbushelicoptersinc.com/images/safety/Ground-Ops-Pilot-at-Controls.pdf
https://www.aia.org.nz/site/aianz/Unattended%20Controls.pdf

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100185/fsa_mar_apr_2013_desktop.pdf
https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/r44_2_poh_full_book.pdf

SuperF you talk bollocks sometimes........

When is leaving a helicopter unattended EVER the right thing and the safest thing to do?? Granted someone out there will state an alternative but it doesn't detract from the basics - it is UNSAFE, UNWISE and downright stupid.:ugh:

PS: None of the above are in la la EASA land either.

[havick]

Are they hot refueling that 212 with no pilot at the controls?

Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.

[gulliBell]

Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.

Yeah, probably. It would be interesting winching whilst flying from the left seat single pilot, I've not tried that before.

[skadi]

Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.

I think no, you could see the lefthand headrest.

And in this foto it seems also no one is in the cockpit?

https://farm9.static.flickr.com/8509/8380438636_0506ccbc63_b.jpg


skadi

[fijdor]

In Canada it is legal to hot refuel, if it is approved in your OPS manual, of course you need all the grounding cable in place before getting the fuel AND a pilot should be at the controls while getting it AND no passengers on board during the refueling.
But it will happen occasionally (maybe a little bit more than occasionally) where the pilot will hot fuel his own aircraft but not legal at least not in Canada.

JD

[SuperF]

Sorry to blow your mind TC, but things do happen safely and legally outside of your very limited view of aviation.

So to prove that I am wrong about leaving a helicopter without a pilot at the controls you link:

1. A document from Airbus that now makes it Legal to do it, even if they don’t recommend it!! Prior to this it was illegal but the have acknowledged that it is done and have reduced the restriction in the flight manual!

2. A document from the NZAIA, actually it was the helicopter committee of that organisation that I happen to be on, I remember sitting having this discussion with our CAA about this very issue. That document is a procedure that describes exactly how to do what I have said can be done safely and legally.

3 and 4 no idea, far to many pages to read on a phone!

I am guessing that somewhere the one from Robinson says that the pilot must be seated at the controls while the blades are turning, or something similar.

So let’s clear a few things up.

Do not hot refuel with Avgas, higher flash point just silly. We actually had some idiot do it in NZ,R44 I think, with those lovely static creating nylon overalls that everyone likes to wear now, burnt his machine!!!

Engine blades at Ground idle, 66% roughly.

Stay close, within the rotor disk is best if you can, but close!

Controls locks/frictions as appropriate for machine.

Check weather conditions, don’t be a dick!

Listen to your machine! You can hear it starting to wind up, and it will give you plenty of warning that it wants to fly. If you cannot hear your helicopter engine starting to wind up, if you are in it or outside it, then you shouldn’t be flying.

Airbus now allow it, it is NOW legal to hop out with rotors turning.

Bell just don’t care. They say minimum crew 1 pilot for flight. Flight time is skids up to skids down. So if the skids aren’t off the ground then you are not flying, therefore you do not have to have a pilot at the controls!! Ask a lawyer!

If anyone ever wants to see how hard it is for these things to fly away by themselves, sit at ground idle and pull collective, engine will slow, blades will droop, but no flying away...

If you need more proof come to NZ, contact me, I will run my helicopter for you and show you how safe it is if done properly.

[PEASACAKE]

We happily hot refuel a 355 F model almost every day. No more risky than the 206 in my opinion. Biggest risk is flying off with the fuel caps sitting in the step. The good news is that when (not if) you do it, as long as you stay in balance it will still be there when you land haha.

I have had to purchase many fuel caps for the AS355, its amazing that they have never flown into the tail rotor after somebody accidentally leaves them in the step hole after refuelling (engine running or not). Normally always the rear tank cap, and not many came back after flights unless they were put in the mrgb decking step.

The step is perfect to leave luggage bay keys and fuel caps in, and its where you have left the float pip pins......when removing the floats.

[500guy]

I have had to purchase many fuel caps for the AS355, its amazing that they have never flown into the tail rotor after somebody accidentally leaves them in the step hole after refuelling (engine running or not). Normally always the rear tank cap, and not many came back after flights unless they were put in the mrgb decking step.

The step is perfect to leave luggage bay keys and fuel caps in, and its where you have left the float pip pins......when removing the floats.

Perhaps a chain is needed on that fuel cap. Or better procedures at least.

[Nescafe]

I always used to put it on the pilot’s seat, or in my trouser pocket.

[John Eacott]

A method that has stood the test of time here is to have the key on a long, strong piece of string anchored to the top hinge inside the boot door. Long enough to reach the filler cap and no further, the door must be open for the key to be accessed and when the filler cap is removed the key remains in the cap. Put it on the boot floor, step recess, wherever, and when filling is complete the cap has to be replaced and the key then removed and put back into the boot and the door then closed.

I've not know that solution to fail.

Re the hot refueling photo of the Wildcat refueling in Canberra, ACT, while on bushfire ops. That is a refueller from the service provider, fully approved by RFS for hot refuelling, and the later image shows an ACT firefighter in attendance. CASA regs allow the pilot to leave the controls under certain constraints all of which are met by a Bell 212. This has been discussed many, many times in Rotorheads and still has the same aghast responses from other operating areas. We do it and it works.

[rotarywrench]

Another quirk of refueling the rear tank of the AS355 series is that it is hard to comunicate visually with the pilot with the helicopter running. When operating the nozzle you have to stretch forward and then can only just see the pilot through the flap door window, or the back part of the window in a sliding door, which ever is installed. When you are looking at the pilot you cannot see the filler, so hopefully the pilot will signal to stop before you look back and see fuel gushing out of the filler. A headset connected with the intercom, or another person makes it easier for the refueller.
The front tank is a lot better.

[gulliBell]

..CASA regs allow the pilot to leave the controls under certain constraints all of which are met by a Bell 212..

Maybe so. Many operators however write in their operations specification or operations manual that a pilot must be at the controls during hot re-fuelling. And if so written, it shall be so.

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

Sorry to blow your mind TC, but things do happen safely and legally outside of your very limited view of aviation.

So to prove that I am wrong about leaving a helicopter without a pilot at the controls you link:

1. A document from Airbus that now makes it Legal to do it, even if they don’t recommend it!! Prior to this it was illegal but the have acknowledged that it is done and have reduced the restriction in the flight manual!

2. A document from the NZAIA, actually it was the helicopter committee of that organisation that I happen to be on, I remember sitting having this discussion with our CAA about this very issue. That document is a procedure that describes exactly how to do what I have said can be done safely and legally.

3 and 4 no idea, far to many pages to read on a phone!

I am guessing that somewhere the one from Robinson says that the pilot must be seated at the controls while the blades are turning, or something similar.

So let’s clear a few things up.

Do not hot refuel with Avgas, higher flash point just silly. We actually had some idiot do it in NZ,R44 I think, with those lovely static creating nylon overalls that everyone likes to wear now, burnt his machine!!!

Engine blades at Ground idle, 66% roughly.

Stay close, within the rotor disk is best if you can, but close!

Controls locks/frictions as appropriate for machine.

Check weather conditions, don’t be a dick!

Listen to your machine! You can hear it starting to wind up, and it will give you plenty of warning that it wants to fly. If you cannot hear your helicopter engine starting to wind up, if you are in it or outside it, then you shouldn’t be flying.

Airbus now allow it, it is NOW legal to hop out with rotors turning.

Bell just don’t care. They say minimum crew 1 pilot for flight. Flight time is skids up to skids down. So if the skids aren’t off the ground then you are not flying, therefore you do not have to have a pilot at the controls!! Ask a lawyer!

If anyone ever wants to see how hard it is for these things to fly away by themselves, sit at ground idle and pull collective, engine will slow, blades will droop, but no flying away...

If you need more proof come to NZ, contact me, I will run my helicopter for you and show you how safe it is if done properly.

Hopefully you're not the pilot I observed at a certain south NZ airport who left his 355 running and completely unattended for almost twenty minutes next to an unlocked gate adjacent to a public car park. He got out to assist his passengers deplane (fair enough) but then carried their luggage into the terminal building. I started videoing it because it was a gusty day and the blades were flapping. I also moved my car, containing my kids, further away. After he sauntered out of the building he climbed in, whacked the throttle forward, lifted off and basically "threw the Heli back over his left shoulder" without any sort of a clearing turn and almost collided with another aircraft taxiing behind him. He was no spring chicken either...

[haihio]

Wow, this thread is getting much longer than I expected !!
Anyway about getting out with rotors running: for some of us it’s the only way we can do things. I am adamant that with the suitable precautions it can be done safely. It’s not something I would choose as my first optiOn but sometimes, when necessary I do it.

[Thomas coupling]

Artificial horizon:

Please please try your best to think logically about this evolution, I beg you.
This is not about EASA land Vs the world. It's not about the practicalities of operating as single pilot way out in the boon docks, it's not about having 200hrs or 20,000hrs under one's belt and it is certainly not about, one part of the industry knowing more or better than other parts.
It is plain and simple: Leaving ANY machine that is running - unattended is bad practice, plain and simple.
Leaving something that is weighing in at around one, two maybe more tonnes, with rotor blades clattering at FI is simply derelict.
There is NO excuse or example that I can think of where a pilot should keep the cab running whilst he/she hops out and refuels - NIL, NADA, NONE.

It is done by some to save time or reduce hassle.

Things go wrong normally, never mind when you push your luck leaving a hand grenade unattended.......

The questions I would be asking are:

Is this evolution essential?
Is it safe?
What would the consequences be if the helo went walk about with me spectating?
Would I lose my job?
Would I lose my business?
Would I injure someone?
What would the insurance company say?

Arty - the definition of flight is when the rotors start turning with the intention of getting airborne. Not when you lift off.

Some manuals and countries say nothing about it, others say it's not allowed. But that aside - this evolution is common sense. It doesn't require a rule or a guide. It is plain downright effing dangerous and everytime you do this, you are risking everything - your job, peoples safety, your business, your life.

Talk sense for a change, think about what you are doing here....................:=

[paco]

Being in the Arctic with a dodgy battery is a powerful persuasion...

Otherwise, I agree!

[puntosaurus]

Err TC, I think your argument is with Super F. I think Arty agrees with you !

[claudia]

Gee. You guys should get a job with EASA. You are well qualified because you can make such a big job of nothing.

[SuperF]

Yeah punto, I think he means me, but also quite a few others on here that agree, but just can’t be bothered with him....

Art, no it wasn’t me in QT, never flown a squirrel. I have heard stories of guys down there guiding their pax on 30min walks, leaving the machine running. Now that I think is stupid.

But read how I described how to do what is being discussed. Not Flight Idle, TC. Ground idle, 66%approx. Don’t try to change what people say and then tell them they are wrong.

next time you are in a helicopter set it at Ground idle and see if you can get it to fly!!!! If you can then Best that u don’t hop out of that helicopter. None of mine will fly away with engine wound back, so how can it fly away???

And just because your definition of flight is when the blades are turning, but you haven’t left the ground doesnt mean that you are correct. I am pretty sure that the Wright brothers hadn’t achieved “flight” until they had left the ground.

Now to really blow your mind, the way the rules are written in NZ it is currently “Legal” to hot refuel a turbine engine aircraft, with pax onboard, but no pilot!! Try letting that sink in. Do I do it, no, can I legally, yes.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Just Google it and you'll get a couple of decades of debate about this topic, right here on PPRuNe. :cool:

Same people, Same opinions, and I don't believe any increase in the occurrences of accidents involving this procedure. Proper precautions, proper equipment, proper training, there is no reason for concern here. If you don't want to do it, don't need to do it, then don't do it.

I even threw in some peripheral threads just to fuel the fire some more! ;)

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/119178-hot-refuelling.html
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/378532-offshore-refuel-scenario.html
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/572179-hot-refueling-offshore-newfoundland-hot-topic.html
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/192182-hot-refuel-during-hover.html