View Full Version : Public sector pensions.
I thought that some of you may be interested in this very useful article from The Spectator.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/the-slow-death-of-the-public-sector-pension/
Onceapilot
5th Jan 2018, 19:43
Thanks for posting Al. :ok:
TBH, I feel that there is a large dose of scaremongering, based around a few truths. Yes, there might be some further increase in old-age life for lucky(?) few but, I do not think overall life expectancy will increase that much. And here is the rub, it will be longer life in old age, not younger longer! So, working "until 80" will be interesting for the average citizen.
As for the Gov funding pensions from taxation, it is the way they chose to do it. TBH, they like funding it that way so much, that they have avoided saving in a pension pot! Yes, they are going to have to find a lot of money in the future but, it is not going to be as bad as stated, IMO. Furthermore, with the future of social care (again, longer life in old age, not younger-longer) totally up **** creek, I can foresee a situation where pensions are traded for social care. Overall, I do not see that the country will grind to a halt over this, primarily because the pension age will keep slipping back and, I do not think that general life expectancy will increase that much (until the new world order comes in and population is slashed!) OH!
OAP
Danny42C
5th Jan 2018, 19:59
Al R,
Aneurin Bevan, the founder of the NHS, said this in 1948:
"The Secret of the National Insurance Fund is - there ain't no Fund"
The whole thing is a vast Ponzi scheme: our pensions are in the same boat; all Ponnzi schemes must collapse one day.
Best of luck, chaps - I should be well out of it before the roof comes in !
I plan to live forever. So far, so good. ;)
The Old Fat One
6th Jan 2018, 06:02
Thanks for posting...
A couple of points. I agree with OAP, the whole increasing longevity thing is a little "rose-tinted". At the moment, with a childhood obesity epidemic in many western countries (esp the UK) longevity went down in 2018. Sure the tech will improve, but will it always be state-funded?
And I also utterly agree with Danny...the whole NI thing is just a ponzi scheme, always has been, always will be (until it eventually collapses). Whilst there are many macro economists who dispute the "technical labelling" of "ponzi" (preferring "tunnel scheme" or some such), there are few who would disagree with the basic premise (and the dangers thereof).
So yeah, in the very long term we are up sh1t creek in a barbed wire canoe, and pensions are only part of it...the NHS and care of the elderly are just as big and potentially more immediate.
And philosophically speaking why should any of this surprise us? Do we not read our history? Once a population becomes complacent and ever-more reliant and "entitled" to all the state is willing to provide it is already on the downhill slope.
The Romans discovered just that a few thousand years ago.
Pontius Navigator
6th Jan 2018, 07:40
My skipper, 50 years ago, observed that inflation of the day meant we would be earning £500k or some such in a few decades. Well that was off the mark.
In 1992, a colleague observed that our pay had just passed the £20k mark. (Flt Lt spec aircrew). Now, as a spec aircrew retiree, our pensions income is more than double that pay, and this in an era of low inflation.
Brian 48nav
6th Jan 2018, 08:55
A small dent in the liabilities could be made if free TV Licences and passports for over 80s were scrapped and Winter Fuel Payment was only made to those on benefit.
BEagle
6th Jan 2018, 09:41
Except that it's cheaper to retain the existing Winter Fuel Payment scheme than to administer any alternative - as the current government was obliged to admit after their original manifesto proposal.
Lordflasheart
6th Jan 2018, 10:51
.... if free TV Licences and passports for over 80s ...
Point of Order Brian - := Are you getting yours ?
Free TV licences are for the Over-75s.
Free Passports only if born before Sept 1929 - or over 16 at the end of WWII.
Winter Fuel payments are for the over 65s or born before 1953.
Don't forget the cold weather supplements :ok:
Christmas £10 Bonus for OAPs and other qualifiers.
Free Prescriptions for OAPS.
Have I missed anything -
BEagle - I wrote to DWP a few years ago asking how I could forgo my Winter Fuel payment - They replied apologetically saying I would have to send them a cheque....:D
Moral - take the money, and if you can afford it - give it to a more deserving charity - Don't forget to Gift Aid it - make the Chancellor pay twice. :E
LFH
.....................
Onceapilot
6th Jan 2018, 11:15
Flash
Free prescriptions are for over 60. Think OAP definition is,"in receipt of State pension". ;)
OAP (not an OAP)
ricardian
6th Jan 2018, 16:24
Free prescriptions for everyone in Scotland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12928485)
Don't forget the free bus pass! It can be used to get to the airfield to fly one's aeroplane.
RHKAAF
6th Jan 2018, 16:41
However, if you live in any of the former " British Empire " countries like Australia, NewZealand and Canada
your pension is forever frozen and all other benefits are lost.
I wonder what will happen to pensioners in EU countries after Brexit.
Brian 48nav
6th Jan 2018, 17:19
Am I getting mine? That's a bit personal - Yes, despite being married to my beautiful wife for 50 years!: :) Oh! You didn't mean that!
I'm not yet old enough for a free TV Licence and I bet there is no way one can opt to continue paying - if there is I can't be bothered to look! Having persuaded our mothers to renew their passports when in their 80s ( because they both had off-spring overseas ) I assumed, wrongly I guess, that that age was something to do with free passports.
Yes, I have been getting the Winter Fuel Payment since 2006 when I was 60 - looks like I'm not up to date there as well!
I don't buy the government's claim that it would be too expensive to 'means test' the allowance. We have a 'means test' already - its called a tax code. Surely some bright spark could devise a programme that lets DWP, or whatever it's called these days, receive a link from HMRC stating who is no longer entitled.
Many changes that could reduce liabilities are political 'hot potatoes' - why do the residents of England have to pay for prescriptions when a mile from me, in Wales, they are free? Why isn't the charge aligned with state retirement age? Why should the emergency services receive a pension straightaway ( I believe ) after only 25 or 30 years service? Etc, etc.
PS Before someone asks why don't I give my fuel payment back - I do give to quite a few charities and in the last year my daughter has fled a bad relationship in London and is finding it difficult to find work here especially with a very sick daughter - lots of demands on 'Bank of Mum & Dad'.
Heathrow Harry
6th Jan 2018, 17:25
"why do the residents of England have to pay for prescriptions when a mile from me, in Wales, they are free?"
devolution
local policies for local people - they get a far worse education over the border - and their ambulance service is a joke...................
roving
6th Jan 2018, 18:50
However, if you live in any of the former " British Empire " countries like Australia, NewZealand and Canada
your pension is forever frozen and all other benefits are lost.
I wonder what will happen to pensioners in EU countries after Brexit.
Theresa May has given repeated assurances that ex pat Brits resident in EU countries will, post brexit, continue to receive the triple lock annual increases. When she was again asked the question in Parliament by a Conservative MP a few weeks ago she repeated that assurance.
Heathrow Harry
6th Jan 2018, 19:26
Triple lock is madness - a straight bribe to pensioners...............
Pontius Navigator
6th Jan 2018, 20:40
HH, as was the derisory £10 Christmas bonus and then the winter fuel payment, bus passes, TV licence, prescriptions etc.
Each was a 'voting winning' bribe and then 'electoral suicide' if revoked.
The triple lock came about from one pension increase of pence per week.
University fees was a goodie as it applied only to those that had no vote. Now it would be a vote winner to the opposition to cancel it but the Government can't afford that bribe.
ian16th
6th Jan 2018, 21:07
Triple lock is madness - a straight bribe to pensioners...............
To SOME pensioners.
I haven't had a State Pension increase for 15 years.
Mind you, I don't have a vote so I'm not worth bribing.
1.3VStall
6th Jan 2018, 22:18
I am very grateful for my old farts bus pass, which I use on my frequent trips to London. I also use my old farts railcard, for which I pay, to travel to and from.
The £10 Christmas bonus on my state pension bought a nice bottle of red for Christmas Day.
The winter Avgas allowance was equally welcome and was spent doing some flying before Christmas.
Do I feel that I should forgo any of these benefits - and create some bureaucratic, administrative tangled web so to do? Absolutely not! I have paid taxes and NI for well over 40 years to merit these "benefits", so I am quite happy to accept them.
Equally, I am quite happy to be magnimous with my charitable donations without such donations being subscribed through and administered by not accepting state benefits.
tdracer
6th Jan 2018, 23:12
Many decades ago, I read a short story where the downfall of western civilization was triggered when it came out that the governments were suppressing a cure for cancer - because of the catastrophic effect the cure would have on public pensions/social security would have bankrupted the governments. When it came to light, the resulting civil unrest caused the western governments to collapse and things simply went downhill from there.
At the time I considered the whole premise horribly far-fetched. Now I'm not so sure...
Haraka
7th Jan 2018, 06:40
Ian 16th To SOME pensioners.
I haven't had a State Pension increase for 15 years.
Mind you, I don't have a vote so I'm not worth bribing.
Same here: My RAF and State Pensions are still summed and taxed at source in U.K. , however no representation. British Democracy in action toward its citizens who chose to retire in certain countries.
Heathrow Harry
7th Jan 2018, 06:54
That's the choice you make.........
Some countries allow people to vote if they aren't in country, some don't - tho' I notice the ones that do are often the ones that tax you on your world-wide income
IIRC the UK doesn't allow it because historically there were so many long-term Brits overseas it was felt they had no day-to-day understanding of the issues
(plus of course most of them voted Tory)
Yes, Jersey taxes all global income.
Our RAF and State pensions are paid gross [and then taxed here].
Registered overseas voters [just renewed!].
Proud recipient of £10 Xmas Bonus, but no Winter fuel allowance :(
I see our Winter fuel payment as a vey small tax rebate. Why on Earth would one refuse to accept it?
roving
7th Jan 2018, 09:47
That's the choice you make.........
Some countries allow people to vote if they aren't in country, some don't - tho' I notice the ones that do are often the ones that tax you on your world-wide income
IIRC the UK doesn't allow it because historically there were so many long-term Brits overseas it was felt they had no day-to-day understanding of the issues
(plus of course most of them voted Tory)
For Australians, voting is compulsory irrespective of where they are.
Australia election: Why is voting compulsory? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23810381)
ian16th
7th Jan 2018, 10:02
That's the choice you make.........
Because I made a choice, in spite of the rules, do not make the rules equitable or fair.
If someone points a gun at you and says, 'I'll shoot you if you move'.
You move, and he shoots and kills you, it is still murder, in spite of the warning!
The UK state pension payment system is inequitable, unfair and should be changed.
Asylum seekers and illegal immigrants get treated better than British, fully paid up, state pensioners, who happen to live in the wrong post code.
snippy
7th Jan 2018, 20:21
I plan to live forever. So far, so good. ;)
Steady on Highlander😂
Hey Snippy; a man's got to have an ambition; and perhaps a hobby. :)
Melchett01
7th Jan 2018, 21:39
Hey Snippy; a man's got to have an ambition; and perhaps a hobby. :)
Discussing my career aspirations a few years back with my Gp Capt, I said my main aspiration was to draw more in RAF pensions than I had in pay.
He initially thought I was taking the mickey until the cogs turned and gave a wry smile when he worked it out.
Heathrow Harry
8th Jan 2018, 07:26
"Because I made a choice, in spite of the rules, do not make the rules equitable or fair."
We all have to learn to live with the consequences of our actions or as my dear old Mum used to say " you can't have everything".
I choose to base in the UK and pay more tax and suffer from the weather - there are always alternatives, such as Dubai, but you have to take the picture as whole
Jumping_Jack
8th Jan 2018, 10:18
Life expectancy has dropped because of antibiotic resistance, says ONS (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/life-expectancy-has-dropped-antibiotic-resistance-says-ons/)
Because I made a choice, in spite of the rules, do not make the rules equitable or fair.
I couldn't agree more. I think the rules should be changed to the simple and patently fair formula:
If you live in the UK you can vote and draw your state pension. If you don't, then you should be able to do niether.
What could be fairer than that?
PDR
Bladdered
8th Jan 2018, 11:54
Life expectancy has dropped because of antibiotic resistance, says ONS (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/life-expectancy-has-dropped-antibiotic-resistance-says-ons/)
Also, RAFG in the 70's and 80's. Great fun but I wouldn't wish my liver on anyone. But for my wife, it would be my lungs too!
Haraka
8th Jan 2018, 17:53
If you live in the UK you can vote and draw your state pension. If you don't, then you should be able to do niether.(sic)
So,according to your logic, a person who has worked and paid in all their working life, then leaves on retirement, should receive no National Pension.
Conversely ,I logically presume by your statement, anybody coming to live in the country under the reverse condition (having contributed nothing) should then be entitled to vote and also get a pension.
Well, if Mr. Corbyn, Ms Abbott et al. get elected, I expect you will get your desire.
So,according to your logic, a person who has worked and paid in all their working life, then leaves on retirement, should receive no National Pension.
Conversely ,I logically presume by your statement, anybody coming to live in the country under the reverse condition (having contributed nothing) should then be entitled to vote and also get a pension.
No, I'd be happy to restrict the pension rights to people who have paid sufficient NI *AND* live in the UK. I'd even go so far as to say that after retirement you can have 3 months of the year out of the UK without affecting that right. See - I am the model of reasonableness.
But if you don't want to live here then live on your non-state pension and/or your wealth. I see no reason why UK residents should subsidise your lifestyle choices.
PDR
ShyTorque
8th Jan 2018, 18:31
No, I'd be happy to restrict the pension rights to people who have paid sufficient NI *AND* live in the UK. I'd even go so far as to say that after retirement you can have 3 months of the year out of the UK without affecting that right. See - I am the model of reasonableness.
But if you don't want to live here then live on your non-state pension and/or your wealth. I see no reason why UK residents should subsidise your lifestyle choices.
PDR
PDR - we in UK are short of housing. We have an NHS that is swamped. Moving abroad eases the load. So why financially penalise those who paid in, vacate a house and are no longer a burden on the health service?
Haraka
8th Jan 2018, 18:48
I see no reason why UK residents should subsidise your lifestyle choices.
So who was subsidising whose retirement lifestyles during the 40 years plus may of us paid in monthly during our working lives, whilst taking nothing out?
PPRuNeUser0211
8th Jan 2018, 19:28
The don't pay out for people overseas argument probably doesn't stack up.
Take state pension, multiply by life expectancy after 65/65/67 and you probably arrive at a few hundred thousand pounds. I'd suggest the cost of looking after one extra elderly person (NHS/care/other services) wipes out quite a few state pensions, so if you penalise people for living overseas and they instead stay in the UK you'll pretty quickly end up on the wrong side of the money curve...
Sevarg
8th Jan 2018, 20:28
PDR Fine by me, no pension for us so none of my NI payments for you. When we leave we sign away our pension rights, you hand us our NI contributions and a sum to cover the amount we save the NHS. We wave goodbye.
By the way don't forget a sum to cover the amount we will save the in the cost for care etc but as I have no wish to bankrupt the country you can keep that.
I understand that other EU countries bill the UK for health treatment for expats treated abroad. So, for instance, if a Brit has public health treatment in France, the UK taxpayer eventually picks up the bill under EU reciprocal arrangements. It should happen in reverse, but despite the larger number of Europeans treated in UK, we recoup less than one tenth of what we pay out! Says something about the accountability of the NHS. Unfortunately, I cant remember where I read this, so treat the figures with caution.
Just saying!!
I have just checked, and it was the BMA that listed 2013/14 NHS payments to Europe for Expat treatment at £674 million while our receipts from Europe under reciprocal arrangements was a mere £49 million. So although one may be overseas, the UK taxpayer is still picking up the tab.
Hot 'n' High
8th Jan 2018, 21:25
Steady on chaps/chapesses! We are all caught by this so why are we having a go at each other?
ShyTorque et al, the reason why the rules differ if you live in the UK or abroad is v simple.
If you pay people increasing benefits who live in the UK where, in the main, does that money go? Ans:- I know there will be exceptions but, generally, straight back into the UK economy which generates more employment, taxes etc, etc, etc back into the Treasury. If you pay increasing benefits to pensioners domiciled abroad that money then goes into those foreign economies. How does that benefit HMG?
And we all know politicos/HMRC work out to the next 3 years max and to hell with the longer term. (Danny42 picked that up at Post #3 realising it is a Ponzi scheme) so they don’t look at “costs” also moving abroad. That “cost” will all take place long after the current politicos have retired!
OK, simplistic/cynical macro-economics from an “economics nerd” I know … but you can see why they do it. It is a plot to keep the dosh today in the UK in the short term. Endex!
On a lighter side….
I just love Melchett01’s logic!!!!!! How brilliant is that as a “retirement goal”. Sadly, I think anyone under, say, 30(?) today will never achieve that. :confused:
On a darker side…
Sadly, a bit like tdracer, I bet the day compulsory euthanasia at age 65 or 70 will be voted in by our kids/grandkids is not too far away! To be honest, I have no idea how they could afford not to! The little swine!!! :\
Sevarg
8th Jan 2018, 21:29
F.O.D.
More or less right. In the EU the U.K. pays an agreed sum per annum to the country that the pensioners live in. In the same way the EU countries with pensioners here pay the U.K. Goverment. I guess this might change soon. For the rest of the world as far as I know no money changes hands, but if one was to come "home" for treatment one would be asked to pay.
Re your second post with sums quoted, I think you'll find that they cover EHIC cards, which are are mainly not asked for in U.K. hospitals.
Plus the fact that there's not many EU pensioners in U.K. Might have something to do with the weather.
dkh51250
9th Jan 2018, 00:54
Those little swine have most likely been watching this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green tdracer[/B], I bet the day compulsory euthanasia at age 65 or 70 will be voted in by our kids/grandkids is not too far away! To be honest, I have no idea how they could afford not to! The little swine!!! :\
ian16th
9th Jan 2018, 06:39
I have just checked, and it was the BMA that listed 2013/14 NHS payments to Europe for Expat treatment at £674 million while our receipts from Europe under reciprocal arrangements was a mere £49 million. So although one may be overseas, the UK taxpayer is still picking up the tab.
This only applies to EU countries, which are countries where UK State Pension are paid out in full, with triple lock increases.
ian16th
9th Jan 2018, 06:49
If you live in the UK you can vote and draw your state pension. If you don't, then you should be able to do niether.
What could be fairer than that?
PDR
Taking cognisance of the NI Pension payments that I paid while I was working overseas would be a good place to start.
I moved overseas during my working life. There was no variation of my pension contribution depending on where I lived and worked, or of the number of years that I paid those contributions.
Therefore any variation in the benefits received, is inequitable.
It's all pretty much moot. Most of the work gets done, not by politicians, but by actuaries. And the Government's actuary has just concluded that NIC need to rise by 5% in order to maintain just the basic state provision. AFPS22, anyone? Means tested state pension, anyone?
Me, I think higher NIC is just a ploy to get people to retire. But wait. Let's combine Income Tax and NIC..
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/669536/GAD_E-news_issue_30_Dec_2017.pdf
Heathrow Harry
9th Jan 2018, 08:01
"Let's combine Income Tax and NIC.."
been talked about for years but see
Could merging National Insurance with income tax have worked? | ICAEW Economia (http://economia.icaew.com/en/technical-update/january-2017/could-merging-national-insurance-with-income-tax-have-worked)
" one big problem would be knowing where to start. And that’s not the only poser. At the end of the day, any changes have to be approved by politicians constantly glancing over their shoulders to see what voters think. Most plans to align NICs and income tax creates winners and losers – and any government will want to know how that will play out with its key supporters."
Harry,
Agree. The problem is, if it is a problem, that Labour sees it as a vote winner. Increasingly, people see higher taxes as a vote winner. Philosophically, that runs contra to Conservative values.
roving
9th Jan 2018, 09:01
I have just checked, and it was the BMA that listed 2013/14 NHS payments to Europe for Expat treatment at £674 million while our receipts from Europe under reciprocal arrangements was a mere £49 million. So although one may be overseas, the UK taxpayer is still picking up the tab.
There is a reason for that.
Many ex pat Brits are "elderly". They are a greater drain on health care services than those EU citizens who come to Britain not to retire, but to work and/or study.
Tankertrashnav
9th Jan 2018, 09:38
Many ex pat Brits are "elderly". They are a greater drain on health care services than those EU citizens who come to Britain not to retire, but to work and/or study.
The Aussies are on to that. When my niece moved there in her early 60s to live with her daughter and family who had emigrated earlier, her resident's Visa cost her something in excess of £30k. Basically an advance payment on healthcare she may need in future years.
PDR - we in UK are short of housing. We have an NHS that is swamped. Moving abroad eases the load. So why financially penalise those who paid in, vacate a house and are no longer a burden on the health service?
Because they are no longer contributing to the UK economy. And typically these expats come running back toi the UK any time they need "serious" medical treatment (hip replacements, heart bypass, personality implant etc) because it's "free" here rather than paying several grand to have it done in their chosen Elysium.
PDR
roving
9th Jan 2018, 10:05
Because they are no longer contributing to the UK economy. And typically these expats come running back toi the UK any time they need "serious" medical treatment (hip replacements, heart bypass, personality implant etc) because it's "free" here rather than paying several grand to have it done in their chosen Elysium.
PDR
Evidence? A few facts and figures would help to keep this argument in touch with the actuality.
Basically for every ex pat pensioner exported to other EU countries the Uk gets two productive tax paying 20 to 45 year olds in return.
Those clogging-up the beds in the current NHS winter flu crisis are not the 20 to 45 year olds but the elderly.