View Full Version : Attack on Russian Airbase in Syria.
Russian airbase hit in Syria.
It would appear that perhaps some less than professional tactics have seen a major loss of equipment and lives.
In a mortar attack on the country's "Khmeimim" air base outpost located south of the port city of Latakia in Syria around four Su-24 Fencer attack jets, two Su-35 multi-role fighters, and an AN-72 tactical transport have been damaged or destroyed together with casualties.
It had been previously observed that the aircraft were not dispersed but close together and near fuel and munitions. This follows the recent loss of a Mi-24 Hind together with the crew.
https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-source-says-7-russian-planes-in-syria-damaged-by-rebel-attack/4191699.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-planes/at-least-seven-russian-planes-destroyed-by-shelling-at-syrian-air-base-kommersant-idUSKBN1ES20C
A major loss in a single incident and reminiscent of the 1012 Camp Bastion raid where two US Marines and 14 Taliban fighters were killed, six Harriers destroyed and two damaged.
Pontius Navigator
4th Jan 2018, 13:01
Brat, that is a typical problem when trying to cope with an intruder threat or a stand off threat. They probably thought the intruder threat was the greater.
Ground defence commanders with limited resources frequently opt for a smaller perimeter.
glad rag
4th Jan 2018, 13:29
Remember being shown full length film of Bien Hoa 1965 disaster entitled convincingly enough "How to Stage a Disaster" on at least two occasions during various weapons/ordinance training courses.
Shortened version below...
teHsjwXTrcU
Interesting. USN routinely packs their tactical aircraft (and fuel, and munitions) in a VERY tight area. My point? There are no simple answers, much less single answers we can all point to as the way to do things.
glad rag
4th Jan 2018, 14:37
The difference today is burn not bang..
Pontius Navigator
4th Jan 2018, 15:46
KenV, embarked? They will have plenty of suppression systems but a bit hard for explosive safety distances.
Old-Duffer
4th Jan 2018, 15:50
The US Navy has suffered several major accidents on its carriers - I think Forrestal and Oriskany?
Bien Hoa, I understand, was caused by the premature explosion of a bomb on a B57 which destroyed an entire flight waiting to depart on a sortie and killed all the aircrew save one. The destruction continued with sympathetic explosions which killed a total of about two dozen USAF personnel and also destroyed some other aircraft.
Old Duffer
SASless
4th Jan 2018, 16:29
134 KIA or MIA during the USS Forrestal Fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6NnfRT_OZA
Russian official sources confirm death of 2 servicemen and loss of a heli (because of malfuntion, not of mortars), but decline loss of 7 aircraft. Anyway, such things cannot be hidden, and if aircraft were damaged, it would be clear soon.
downsizer
4th Jan 2018, 17:49
Russian official sources confirm death of 2 servicemen and loss of a heli (because of malfuntion, not of mortars), but decline loss of 7 aircraft. Anyway, such things cannot be hidden, and if aircraft were damaged, it would be clear soon.
https://twitter.com/LostWeapons/status/948930068935360512
Salute!
Pontius made a good call.
The commander at Wheeler, Oahu made the same call due to limited ground security resources. So the neat rows of closely spaced planes made for easy pickings, as the Russians found out.
By the time I got to Bien Hoa in 1967, we had all our planes in revetments. We also had limits on how many munitions could be in a revertment along with a plane. Nevertheless, we lost one first night of Tet when a 122mm rocket scored a direct hit on a loaded plane. No kidding, it was a smoking hole, but only the next plane over the wall had skin damage due to the shockwave. Lost another a year or two later same way, then we started to build concrete arches over the revetments. They were maybe 18"thick and the concrete was simply poured between two "quonset hut" roof sections. After that, no problems except for shrapnel damage if the mortar or Rx hit right in front of the plane.
I always had doubts about our buffs at Grand Forks, as their alert pad was about a half mile from the main highway. About a dozen armed buffs maybe 100 feet apart. A well-timed mortar attack from the highway just as their missile launched would have been nasty. Just for a few minutes, tho, as the 2 megaton airburst 20 minutes later would have made all else moot.
Gums sends...
India Four Two
4th Jan 2018, 19:25
then we started to build concrete arches over the revetments. They were maybe 18"thick and the concrete was simply poured between two "quonset hut" roof sections.
gums,
That style of shelter was still present at Tan Son Nhat when I first went to Saigon in 1995. One had a .50 cal tripod on the roof and another one had a mortar bomb hole in it.
Although they weren’t used for storage, they survived until they were demolished a couple of years ago. Some of the revetments are still there, as are some of the aircraft abandoned in 1975!
Salute!
Good update India.
Only reason we had revetments in Thailand at Korat was the fratricide if something blew up or caught fire. See Oriskany and Forrestal.
Dunno about the Russians, but the NATO folks did not put the final component of the fuse in until the jet was about to be loaded on the plane. The booster was inserted at the bomb dump in most cases. The final doofer with the impact trigger and the detonator was screwed in when the bomb was loaded on my jet.
Somehow, looking back to the 60's, I get this feeling that the U.S, and a few allied folks had more experience in these matters than the Russians. I mean, how many nights did the Russians and friends fly a few hundred sorties, employ a few hundred cruise missiles and take out the central communication facility of a country? I do not know how many mortar attacks the Russians faced in the 'stan during the 80's, but the Frogfoot and Hind were there until the withdrawal. In 'nam, the Vee hit us early on as soon as we massed enuf hardware to make it worthwhile.
Gums sends...
jolihokistix
5th Jan 2018, 04:46
Can anyone translate downsizer’s Russian tweet above?
jolihokistix
5th Jan 2018, 04:49
6 Su 24
1 Su 35C
1 An 72
1 An 30
And so on?
Jolihokistix,
Here is the translation of the fragment in Russian that you were asking for:
"По базе в Хмеймим. Всё же пострадала техника. Предварительно 6 Су-24, 1 Су-35С, 1 Ан-72, 1 Ан-30 разведчик, 1 Ми-8. 2 Су-24 и Су-35С ввели в строй."
"Concerning the Khmeimim airbase. Hardware suffered, nevertheless. Preliminary saying, 6 Su-24, 1 Su-35, 1 An-72, 1 An-30 reconaissance, 1 Mi-8. 2 Su-24 and Su-35 are back in operation".
First, it's quite vague about the the damages. Maybe they were minor and could be fixed on the spot in days/weeks.
Second, regarding the picture posted and its source.... Well, I can shot dozens much more "dramatic" ones at the nearest AF base where old dead planes stay near the fence. Referring to an unknown blogger is just not very much convincing.
BTW, Russian military sources say that the mortars were Russian made, 82-mm ones named "Vasilyok" ("Cornflower"). Turkey had this stuff. Perhaps the items were smuggled from there?
Stitchbitch
5th Jan 2018, 06:48
A_Van does your nearest base leave their scrapped jets next to the fence bombed up, leaking fuel and with engines intact?
downsizer
5th Jan 2018, 09:50
There is also numerous photos of SU-24 Bort 29 in Syria.
jolihokistix
5th Jan 2018, 09:52
Thank you kindly, A Van.
Ah, there is a full-stop in there. Back in action are the following only... "2 Su-24 and Su-35 are back in operation".
Some thought-provoking ideas in this article. All rebel groups look out!
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/russia-afraid-losing-syria-171129090329298.html
sandiego89
5th Jan 2018, 14:10
Jolihokistix,
BTW, Russian military sources say that the mortars were Russian made, 82-mm ones named "Vasilyok" ("Cornflower"). Turkey had this stuff. Perhaps the items were smuggled from there?
While I am sure some would love to blame Turkey, there is plenty of Russian made stuff in the theater- ex-Syrian, Iranian, Iraqi, black market, direct from Russia and into rebel hands, etc. etc.....
When I see an ISIS/ISIL/Daech rebel with an AK-47 should I assume they got it from Turkey?
While I am sure some would love to blame Turkey, there is plenty of Russian made stuff in the theater- ex-Syrian, Iranian, Iraqi, black market, direct from Russia and into rebel hands, etc. etc.....
When I see an ISIS/ISIL/Daech rebel with an AK-47 should I assume they got it from Turkey?
You are perfectly right giving AK-47 as an example. No intent to blame Turkey, at least from me. Could be simply dropped by the Syrian (governmental) army when they were running away from Daesh. Also black market for such things work, as they are quite compact and good for transportation. Ukraine had these mortars, Hungary even got a manufacturing license. Not so important anyway where they came from. The main idiots are those commanders of that airbase/camp who were/are not keeping planes in HAS or PAS.
Further attack on the airbase.
Syria war: Russia thwarts drone attack on Hmeimim airbase - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42595184)
When I was in Murree, you could buy an AK-47 in the market.
Where can’t you buy one?
Now Russians are saying attack was a drone swarm.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17493/russia-says-january-5th-attack-on-its-syrian-air-base-was-by-a-swarm-of-drones
"Swarm" is not the right word in this context, and it was not used even in the Russian (stupid) media (but an English interpreter used it).
"Swarm" is typically used while addressing coordinated, interacting and self-organizing crowd of robotic devices. Too loud in this case where we see just wooden made-on-the-knees drones. And a dozen of them can hardly be considered as a "massive attack".
Nevertheless, it is good, military wise, to deal with such stuff for real training of the airbase personnel and identifying optimal measures to take away various models of this flying b-sh@t.
unmanned_droid
9th Jan 2018, 10:21
"Swarm" is not the right word in this context, and it was not used even in the Russian (stupid) media (but an English interpreter used it).
"Swarm" is typically used while addressing coordinated, interacting and self-organizing crowd of robotic devices. Too loud in this case where we see just wooden made-on-the-knees drones. And a dozen of them can hardly be considered as a "massive attack".
Nevertheless, it is good, military wise, to deal with such stuff for real training of the airbase personnel and identifying optimal measures to take away various models of this flying b-sh@t.
If it was a swarm (that being the correct plural for multiple unmanned aircraft under control of a single operator or having some element of self control the actual number required to classify it as a swarm is pretty irrelevant) it's actually quite a breakthrough. First reported use of a swarm to attack targets as far as I'm aware.
Even if it was multiple unmanned aircraft under control of multiple operators its still quite a significant event.
Better get them 2.4GHz jammers up and running.
Lonewolf_50
9th Jan 2018, 14:07
Whomever attacked the airbase with this gaggle/flock/swarm/squadron/flight of armed drones took a page from the Red Army's long standing modus operandi of massing effects. That tells me that a military mind, or one with a good understanding of how to apply effective military tactics, was behind this attack. As one crusty old iron major once pointed out: you may not like the enemy, but never for a moment presume that the enemy is stupid.
Good point made by A_Van about training air base personnel on this as a part of their threat calculus/force protection measures. Likewise the comment in re jamming by unmanned droid.
Basil
10th Jan 2018, 09:28
Wasn't it Stalin who said: "Quantity has a quality all of its own."
Lyneham Lad
10th Jan 2018, 09:56
Article in The Times today (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-troops-in-syria-hmeimim-airbase-fight-off-swarm-of-rebel-drones-065rcgdfg?shareToken=1e2bbe12da1f2badefa3ba8b29955d7f).
Snip:-
The United States may have assisted a drone attack on a Russian airbase in Syria, officials in Moscow alleged yesterday.
Russia’s defence ministry said it was an “odd coincidence” that a US navy Poseidon reconnaissance aircraft had been in the area when ten rebel drones armed with explosives swarmed over its Hmeimim airbase on Friday and Saturday. Three drones were sent to its Tartus naval base on the Syrian coast.
Even in my day there was a US Recce aircraft going north/south along the Syria/Lebanon/Israel border 12-14 hours a day - and thats when there wasn't a war going on in Syria. In fact the suspicious thong wild be if there was'nt a recce aircraft at the time.
A_Van
10th Jan 2018, 10:10
There are many "officials" here talking various nonsense - freedom of speech and democracy :-) But on the action side of the matter, formal written claims and complaints were sent to Turkey because a so-called "Idlib de-escalation zone" (where all this crap flew from) is formally under their responsibility. Some more pictures of this work of art:
https://ria.ru/syria/20180110/1512356013.html
Lonewolf_50
10th Jan 2018, 12:43
Article in The Times today (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-troops-in-syria-hmeimim-airbase-fight-off-swarm-of-rebel-drones-065rcgdfg?shareToken=1e2bbe12da1f2badefa3ba8b29955d7f).
The United States may have assisted a drone attack on a Russian airbase in Syria, officials in Moscow alleged yesterday.
Are you buying that, LL? If so, I've got a nice bridge in Booklyn that you might like to buy shares in.
atakacs
10th Jan 2018, 13:04
Are you buying that, LL? If so, I've got a nice bridge in Booklyn that you might like to buy shares in.
Well I guess anything is possible these days but what is pretty sure is that there are many people that will want to see the data collected by the P8 on that night...
unmanned_droid
10th Jan 2018, 19:20
There are many "officials" here talking various nonsense - freedom of speech and democracy :-) But on the action side of the matter, formal written claims and complaints were sent to Turkey because a so-called "Idlib de-escalation zone" (where all this crap flew from) is formally under their responsibility. Some more pictures of this work of art:
https://ria.ru/syria/20180110/1512356013.html
Please don't hesitate to include yourself in between those speech marks.
Lyneham Lad
11th Jan 2018, 12:52
Are you buying that, LL? If so, I've got a nice bridge in Booklyn that you might like to buy shares in.
Merely passing on the article for your amusement... ;)
Russia now hinting at involvement by the Ukraine.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-came-under-attack-by-swarm-syria-says-report-23987
A rather delicious irony if they were.
jolihokistix
12th Jan 2018, 00:34
From an article in Japan Today:
"Dmitry Sablin, a lawmaker who coordinates parliamentary links with Syria, told the Interfax news agency the attack was even bigger than the Russian military acknowledged, involving 31 drones."
And in the comments section there re drone bomblets:
"Impovised explosive devices, 400 grams each, full of metal balls with effective killing range up to 50 meters. Ten such IEDs per drone."
jolihokistix
12th Jan 2018, 00:57
Brat I've read your linked article above twice now but find no mention of the Ukraine.
A_Van
12th Jan 2018, 06:15
jolihokistix,
In fact, in Russian media there indeed was some mentioning of Ukraine but only in the context that "explosives to make such IEDs are easily accessible on the open market. E.g., the components of that particular explosives found on the drones captured are produced at many chemical plants such as ... including Shostka plant in Ukraine". There was no mentioning that they came out of this specific plant and no blame on any particular group.
jolihokistix
12th Jan 2018, 08:22
Thank you, A_Van.
My guess is that among the anti-Assad factions there are quite a few brainy individuals, maybe Syrian, recruited back from abroad who are able to put something together like these. The fact that they look so similar suggests that there must be a crude manufacturing line somewhere.
Brat I've read your linked article above twice now but find no mention of the Ukraine.
Apologies, it was not mentioned in the article but had been mentioned elsewhere.
https://www.unian.info/world/2341293-russia-claims-ukraine-might-be-involved-in-drone-attack-on-hmeymim-airbase-in-syria.html
jolihokistix
12th Jan 2018, 08:53
Ah yes, many thanks. More food for thought.
unmanned_droid
12th Jan 2018, 23:37
I posted this on Linkedin earlier to a post with more pictures of the aircraft used being shown at a press briefing:
The type of flight computer and GPS unit is the best available to the average person on the street, is open hardware and so far hasn't been copied by the Chinese hobby suppliers. It uses community based free firmware which is pretty good in the right hands Even though it looks pretty low tech, I suspect it cost about £500.00 including the munitions which look to have plastic (3D printed?) bodies. The other photos show an FPV camera which would have been transmitting probably in the 5.8 or 1.2 GHz range. My worry is that this will drive punitive restrictions to prohibit the very very vast majority of users in favour of stopping 1 or 2 bad agents. However, the most effective way of stopping this type of attack is to limit the availability of hardware such as IC hobby engines (including chainsaw and other power tool IC engines) and electronics. The electronics seem like the best approach as you can force the user back in to having to have an RF link.
The thing is, RC aircraft have been used in the past, this is just applying the available technology. I saw on one page on LinkedIn not too long ago a picture of a Phantom quadcopter with homemade 40mm grenades ready to be dropped from it in Iraq. Just new tools.
TEEEJ
14th Jan 2018, 17:42
Analysis from Bellingcat
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/01/12/the_poor_mans_airforce/
Fact is, that the Russians were attacked in a manner that was unconventional, unexpected, and inflicted enough damage to have definitely captured their attention.
Russia Says it Blew Up Terrorists Behind Syria Drone Attacks With Laser-Guided Artillery - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17649/russia-says-it-blew-up-terrorists-behind-syria-drone-attacks-with-laser-guided-artillery)
glad rag
15th Jan 2018, 15:59
Fact is, that the Russians were attacked in a manner that was unconventional, unexpected, and inflicted enough damage to have definitely captured their attention.
Russia Says it Blew Up Terrorists Behind Syria Drone Attacks With Laser-Guided Artillery - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17649/russia-says-it-blew-up-terrorists-behind-syria-drone-attacks-with-laser-guided-artillery)
AKA
"well there I was shaking the sand out of my sandals and thinking about my goats when...."