So no 13 th month for Captains

[Scoreboard]

SO and FO capped up to 35k. But nothing for D level staff at all....so how you feel all about that fuel saving reti crap now guys.....shave that fuel just a bit more for a good kick to the balls......

[checklistcomplete]

Exactly.
So no more RETI, AZFW adjustments, discretion or landings to FO's, Jump seats only for other captains. This list is endless.

[Trafalgar]

Every boxer that gets in the ring believes they have a chance. AT and RH obviously feel pretty bold. Well, the boxing plan lasts as long as the first fist hits your face. CX management are about to realise that their plan is exactly that, a plan. The reality of the 'fight' is about to engulf them. Most of us didn't care about this company before. Now...we have a visceral hatred to focus on. That always help in a fight. We all know what we need to do, and we will be doing so. When this is over, the Swire's will be desperate to sell CX, and the public will never want to rely on us again. Sad, but that is the result this contemptuous decision today has guaranteed.

[dabz]

Every boxer that gets in the ring believes they have a chance. AT and RH obviously feel pretty bold. Well, the boxing plan lasts as long as the first fist hits your face. CX management are about to realise that their plan is exactly that, a plan. The reality of the 'fight' is about to engulf them. Most of us didn't care about this company before. Now...we have a visceral hatred to focus on. That always help in a fight. We all know what we need to do, and we will be doing so. When this is over, the Swire's will be desperate to sell CX, and the public will never want to rely on us again. Sad, but that is the result this contemptuous decision today has guaranteed.

just wait till you hear Friday's news too...

[Trafalgar]

I'm sure. I guess they don't want any aircraft flying over the holidays. Glad to be almost done with this lot of cretins.

[CXKA]

Exactly.
So no more RETI, AZFW adjustments, discretion or landings to FO's, Jump seats only for other captains. This list is endless.

Are you serious? No JS for FO's, it's not their fault they got a small percentage of their 13 month. Try attacking the real enemy not your colleagues!

[ChinaBeached]

CXKA - did you once, but ONCE, ever consider what your C-Scale would lead to? You didn't. You thought of yourself. Most of or all of your C-Scale colleagues also thought of themselves without regard for what accepting a contract that would have undeniable and now proven affects on the real pilots at CX. (Yes, you read right..) Many as I understand it also vote that same way in AOA polls.

So whilst you thought of yourself, the AOA GC thought of themselves as at the time they ignorantly and pathetically didn't see C-Scale affecting them personally, why not allow those who've felt the brunt of the remuneration package you saw as a "great opportunity" collectively look after themselves? You did. You do. So now may they.

Relax though kid.... Sooner than later they'll be quitting and moving on. If you're lucky maybe to even train you as their cheap replacements! Then when D-Scale comes in you too will be scratching your head and saying "Only C-Scalers get to pay for their own food own board! You D-Scale s.o.b's can bring your own tea bags!!"

But of course, it'll never happen to you.... Maybe you'll be proud of the D-Scale "fresh enthusiasm" they'll bring too?

[Trafalgar]

Guys. Colleagues are NOT the enemy. Management want to play us against each other. Don't bite. Everyone plan to take their own personal action over the coming weeks. Do what is necessary to insist on the respect due. That is all it will take to see an immediate improvement in all our conditions. Stay focused on the real enemy.

[Trafalgar]

Yes. Time to throw away that textbook.

[CXKA]

This discussion has nothing to do with A,B,C its about not penalizing your colleagues for the problems caused by our management.

[Fat_Dumb_and_Unhappy]

CXKA - did you once, but ONCE, ever consider what your C-Scale would lead to? You didn't. You thought of yourself. Most of or all of your C-Scale colleagues also thought of themselves without regard for what accepting a contract that would have undeniable and now proven affects on the real pilots at CX. (Yes, you read right..)

So let me get this right ChinaBeached, you are saying that for the C-Scalers should have rejected the contract offer to join an airline, post 9/11 when no one was hiring and the industry was suffering. These guys and girls should have turned down the chance of a paid flying job in order to ensure that you could maintain your salary and benefits. So in that scenario, you would be fine and some kid with no backing or savings would take one for the team and continue to be unemployed?

Presuming you are an A-Scaler, or god forbid, a hypocritical B-Scaler, why didn’t you put up more of a fight when you were within the system? Why did you allow the C-Scale to be offered in the first place? Oh that’s right...because at the time it was probably a bit too much of a pain in the rear to fight against something that didn’t materially affect you there and then. Now that it has, its those selfish youngsters who should have turned down a job offer in a market where very few jobs were going.

Also, I’m guessing you came out of the womb with 4 bars on your umbilical cord right?? I can infer that you are implying that if you haven’t flown in the Air Force, done some bush flying or flown at an airline previously, then you are not a real pilot. I take it none of those places do any training then, when you join you must just be that amazing that you knew everything straight off. I can only hope that the old boys at your previous job didn’t look down on you as the new guy.
What was the pay like at your previous job? I’m guessing it was less than CX otherwise why would you have left. So, if it wasn’t that well paid, why did you take that job at your previous place of employment...surely someone as vocal about people taking inferior contracts would have also turned down a poorly paid flying contract in the past??

Don’t get me wrong, I want EVERYONE to get the best contract, the 13th month, ARAPA, increased HKPA...etc but instead of asking for someone else to not accept a job for my own benefit, I think I’ll do the fighting myself thanks.

[ChinaBeached]

Whilst I sympathise, divide and conquer has sadly already won. A group may only be divided if they are susceptible to be divided, as pilots historically are. Add to that the AOA who selfishly protected their own short term contracts, a GenY "me first" mantra and C-Scale easy-way-in and we arrive at present day CX.

CXKA it has EVERYTHING to do with what you deemed OK to accept and contribute to but not wanting ostracising from the sundry ramifications of? Management offered you a contract that [B]everyone[B] told you not to accept for all the right reasons, you ignored it thinking of only yourself. "Caused by management"? No. Only if you accept it. So they offered it, you begged for it, but now "it's got nothing to do with me" attitude?

Swire 101: Divide on Conquer
Millenial GenY: It's not my fault and someone owes me something.

[Trafalgar]

Everyone. Please. Stop the infighting. We are all frustrated. Turn your anger toward the correct target: our management. We need to unite and send a brutally strong message that NONE of us accept this treatment. Plan your individual action over the coming weeks. They need to feel corporate pain.

[joblow]

Don't worry about RETI , it really doesn't save much especially if you shut down the engine approaching the bay ( compliance ) . What all crew need to do is help the company,out and burn through that ridiculously expensive fuel as quickly as possible . Then we can start making a profit again, no shortcuts . Management should be under no illusion to the cost of this decision .As was said by management in 99 during the dispute . "Don't forget we control the purse strings and the retort from assembled crew was "yes but it's our hands on the throttles .
So gents if you don't make this hurt really badly you are on a road to a hiding .
They have always said that they would cut and push until we pushed back , well now is the time to get creative and push back HARD. or leave your choice , but doing nothing is no longer an option
Initially I posted a number of ideas to help out those that are incapable of being inventive but it's probably better if management don't see them . If you need some ideas ask around

[Trafalgar]

To all my fellow captains: please understand this is the most contemptuous slight we have ever witnessed. They are basically saying to everyone of us that we don’t count. They assume we can’t go anywhere so therefore they can ignore us and treat us with contempt and ridicule. To every C @ T captain, why would you debase yourself and your profession any further ? To line captains, why would you continue to show up as expected. They care nothing for our professionalism and loyalty. EveryONE of you MUST send a strong messsge this holiday season. In particular, the C @ T captains must resign. I did and you can also. This cannot go on any longer. This is a slap too far.

[ChinaBeached]

Fat, maybe, Dumb - definitely. Research before shooting your mouth off or else Mark Twain foretold your existence moons ago.

I DID WALK AWAY. I was offered the original C-Scale contract. I said no. I walked away. I refused the scraps you begged for.

Didn't come out of the womb with 4 bars. I earned my hours & credentials not via a cheap contract that would undermine my colleagues or industry. You can't say the same.

There was a downturn in the market. I waited 3 ½ years for my promised CX job. All the while "miraculously" I worked and studied my ar$e off to be everywhere and be anywhere to fly. An autopilot was as alien to me as a spine is to you. There were jobs out there, admittedly fewer than high times, but they didn't all offer air conditioned cockpits & shortcuts. They were there. You just had to get off your lazy GenY backside to back yourself and make it happen.

Real pilots come in all walks of life and backgrounds. Hours, while a good indicator, are not always truly representative of aptitude. What is the best indicator is past behaviour as well as one's morality and professional integrity. Your past dictates you're willing to undercut a market to get a job. You could be the Ace Sandwich Eating Champine of C-Scale (perhaps why you're fat?) and best cocktail maker at AT's little soires.....but your character is as your character does.

So go on! Stand up for what you believe in: UNITY! Go and create and account whereby ALL pilots who received a bonus pool that money and then divide it up amongst ALL pilots evenly. You're all about UNITY and "don't blame me for what I helped create". GO ON!! SHOW UNITY AND SHARE YOUR BONUS EVENLY! See we're different. I backed up my convictions and beliefs and rejected what you scoffed up. You won't back up your rhetoric because it's all about YOU.

So Fat(perhaps)_Dumb(definitely)_and_Unhappy(because you gobbled up the sh!t sandwich C-Scale contract), you are wrong in all your accusations.

[checklistcomplete]

Trafalgar. Totally agree with your sentiments and to everyone else until you have the four gold stripes the planes don't fly and if the C&T's resign there aren't any new stripes being handed out. Simple.

[checklistcomplete]

ChinaBeached.
Excellent suggestion but it will fall on deaf ears and no one in the RHS will forfeit their 35K but it will be a different story when the come to do their CMD sims and upgrade rides. But hang on, by then all the C&T's will have resigned so guess what perpetual RHS work. Then, to resolve the crewing problems DEC's on 5 year contracts. Watch this space.

[Fat_Dumb_and_Unhappy]

I DID WALK AWAY. I was offered the original C-Scale contract. I said no. I walked away. I refused the scraps you begged for.

So you only took an A-Scale contract then ChinaBeached?

[Trafalgar]

The main point is obvious: this airline has ceased to be a career airline. All that is left is the resolve to demonstrate we aren’t lemmings. I am leaving soon. I resigned training almost a year ago. I trust my colleagues will have the character and resolve to now do the same. How can any of you go to work with any self respect after what our management has just done? The time has come to be counted. Our very profession and honor is at stake. We are in a war and there is no hiding from it. Do what is right.

[ChinaBeached]

Gents - I wish you only the best. I sincerely hope you all can both get what best you can from the present situation as well as move on to either a happier career or happy retirement. For me it was a bullet dodged - all be it an easy one to see coming for all the obvious reasons of professionalism and integrity.

There are still some real pilots left at CX who know what integrity and unity is. I hope you can band together and if nothing else leave a legacy but I fear to the next generation they will be completely perplexed by it.

As I wrote in a previous thread, the GenY Millennial C-Scalers are your new bosses. They have the numbers and therefore dictate the terms. They moan and whine from the cheapest of seats about the Training Ban affecting their promotion timeline without the slightest appreciation of short term sacrifice and UNITY for long term rewards.

If these kids masquerading as "pilots" had an ounce of professional morality they would do just as they are calling for: UNITY via the means I suggested. But as I wrote, it's not in their moral compass.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Exactly.
So no more RETI, AZFW adjustments, discretion or landings to FO's, Jump seats only for other captains. This list is endless.

FOs and SOs need those jumps as well. Dont hurt your colleaguess in the cockpit like that

[Fat_Dumb_and_Unhappy]

ChinaBeached.
You didn’t answer my question, so I’m going to assume you joined on B-Scale then since you turned down the original C-Scale.

Would you not therefore agree that you accepted something that in the eyes of the A-Scalers, was an inferior contract and a potential to further cuts?

Whether you “Took contracts that didn’t undermine your colleagues” is all based on your frame of reference. Not sure if your fellow A-Scale guys would agree with you on that one.

I wouldn’t blame B-Scale colleagues, and I won’t blame C-Scale colleagues. I will blame those responsible for terrible business decisions that have created this problem, who want to transfer the cost of their mistakes onto the people who fulfill their part of the deal in keeping the operation going.

[Trafalgar]

"....fulfill their part of the deal in keeping the operation going...". I wouldn't count on that from now on.

[iceman50]

F D U

Chinabeached does NOT work here he just likes to write about how wonderful and heroic he is for not joining!

[McNulty]

Chinabeached....stop dodging the question, are you a scale or b scale? Because if you are b scale then you're the biggest hypocrite in the history of pprune, which is a major achievement indeed.

[raven11]

Mcnulty
China B never joined CX. It’s my understanding that he saw the writing on the wall and chose not to.

[checklistcomplete]

I feel sorry for the 4 guys recently promoted to captain as mentioned by AT in the Wednesday Windup. Their value to the company reduced to "zero" after months of hard work. Shameful and soooooooooo shortsighted.

[Pogie]

To give everyone an idea who this pathetic little troll is, here are some of his recent quotes on PPrune:

I interviewed and passed the CX interview in early 2008 and was amongst the first to be offered C Scale.

Me & the others like me who PASSSED the CX interview to a FAR, FAR higher standard over 3 years ago do feel let down.

I flew my ar$e off in the outback & top end of Oz for 4500+ hrs flying approaches & in conditions that the pathetic likes of you can only study about in the hope of blabbering your way through an interview.

I & those before your pitiful existence passed the CX interview to a standard C-Scale iCadets could never fathom.

So, to summarize:

He thinks that 4500 hours is lot (Hahahaaa!! Poor, young pup! BTW, does it even snow in Australia? Every time I've been down there, it's been mostly sunny.)

Apparently his grammar and spelling doesn't reach the same level as his unfathomable, far, far higher flying standards (Did he seriously start a sentence with the word, "Me"?)

He was willing to accept a reduced B-scale, but not a further-reduced C-scale (no hypocrisy there).

All of his friends got hired on B-scale, then they handed him a C-scale contract. He stormed away with a shattered ego, and spent the next 9 years on PPrune as an Internet troll bashing anyone who took the C-scale contract. Now he's calling for CX captains to not give jump seats to his "friends" that got the B-scale contract that he didn't get offered (Seriously, Dude! -- It's been 9 years! It's time to let it go! Why do you even care?):ugh::ugh:

[Silent Treatment]

Pogie,

'Me' thinks your post is brilliant. Excellent research.
Not sure about snow in OZ, but I did experience 9ºC once. So maybe he does have some winter experience.:ugh:

[Flex88]

Divide and Conquer. Swire 101


Bend over and take it up the a** - SWIRE 102

[Trafalgar]

The only bending over i'll be doing is when I bend over to adjust my flip flops before heading to the beach. The beach i'll be on recuperating from my 'unfit for duty' time off. That time will be used to finalise my retirement plans. As for those of you a bit younger, use the same time off work to attend interviews and plan your exit from this utterly toxic company. Speak to those that have recently left. None of them regret it. There is life after CX. By all means stay if you want a career of abuse, meager earnings and living in fear. Then this will be just the place for you.

[Not Hiding]

There are some selfless and generous pilots at CX, many of whom are captains who have just been screwed.

A few years ago, almost 300 CX pilots donated over US$13,000 to two heroic passengers screwed by CX.

https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/546976-caring-airline-again-8.html#post8662607

I think the idea of all the FOs and SOs pooling their "13th month" and distributing it to all the captains is a great idea, one which would show unity without risking anyone's job!

Now's the chance.

[Trafalgar]

I don't want nor need my colleagues money. They deserve their small stipend, and so do we. In fact, we all deserve a full 13th month. The Captains can take care of this effectively in other ways, and we will. I do think that the AOA should immediately pass a motion that states that no one will take up a vacated CandT position until the person that vacates said position is rehired back into that position first. That way the company won't be able to fill the slots of those resigning from C and T.

[okm]

I think the idea of all the FOs and SOs pooling their "13th month" and distributing it to all the captains is a great idea, one which would show unity without risking anyone's job!

Now's the chance.

Are you crazy! Cx will just repeat their tactics next year and assume the rest of the troops will share it again. It'll become the norm.

[Trafalgar]

Correct. We need to let them know that the money they 'saved' will end up costing them far more in the end. That is the only way to stop this contempt.

[Farman Biplane]

CX/Swire Mgmt has decided to pay less than a full month of 13th month to ALL pilots (SO1 basic monthly is more than $35000). Whilst I appreciate the generosity in suggesting a share of the misery, I am totally in agreement with Traf that other means will be found to penalise the company for this egregious gesture.

[Hadenough18]

CX has I think finally crossed the for me personally. Any illusions that the company had any respect for me as a Snr. Capt. are gone. It goes without saying we will all carry out our own forms of resistance. To all the trainers and checkers, how many times do you need to be slapped in the face before you man up and resign. Give your self inflated egos a rest. If you stay your as bad as them.

[Flex88]

Time to Win - For Less

#MCXGA

[Hadenough18]

I’m happy for all the A,B,and C staff. To all you Pilot managers,check and trainers, remember the two words respectful and respect. We are respectful now because we have to be. When the dust settles on this, you can all sit around together and tell each other all the narcissistic lies you want because all you’ll have is each other.

[checklistcomplete]

2 hours ago on Yammar Tom Owen ( director of personnel ) tried to explain his rationale for not giving captains a 13th month.
What a sad reflection on this company and this director. The man is totally deluded and in one fell swoop has alienated arguably the most important single group in the company. He has completely missed the concept that an airline needs aircraft, aircraft need pilots and pilots need CAPTAINS.
In any other industry such rationale might be tolerable ( few but some ) but not in aviation as he and the company at large will soon find out. We will see how popular he is with his ground staff and office workers when he is forced to lay them off because the planes aren't flying because the Captains didn't show up.
Fo's and So's can sit back, spend your 35K and enjoy Xmas. You won't be working much.

[Jnr380]

Lets look at it logically from what I perceive is the reason why management decided to have no 13th month for Captains. Its all to try and push A and B scale captains out of the company if the can.

Firstly, it takes 10 years plus for Command. The ones on A scale and B scale are will into their 40's - 60's. So the chances of them moving to another company due seniority is not that high so they are kind of stuck between a rock and hard place.

In saying that the ones that do pick up and leave to go somewhere else, is only a benefit to the company in regards to monetary compensation compared to a C scale. The only "talent" the company will want to hold onto are the ones that can do check and training, and Dragonair can help in this department if need be.

Lets say X amount of Captain leaves, they need to be replaced, therefore time to command is reduced significantly, which will tempt new DEFO's, as I'm yet to hear "Oh 10-12 years to command! Where do I sign?" Most will walk out of the interview knowing other Asian and ME carriers are doing it in about 4 years.

Going back to Dragonair, I believe CX is going to absorb them into their AOC and therefore leaving a spare AOC. With 20+ new A320's ordered this might be for Cathay to launch a new low cost carrier.

[Average Fool]

They cant even launch an EFB.

[Soul planet]

what will the fau do if all ism don't get 13th month?

[Trafalgar]

Jnr380

And who would train their replacements? I don't think there will be a training department worthy of the name in a few weeks time. I have spoken to three trainers this morning, all of whom are handing in their resignations. They tell me they also know of several more that are planning on the same. The company has slapped them in the face one time too many. None of them want to have to face their colleagues under these circumstances, and certainly none of them want to be party to their own demise. I suspect that the majority of C and T's are now done with this farce.

[Rated De]

Gentlemen,

I do understand the sentiments, aviation is the same the world over, after all the cockroaches all infest the same IATA conferences.



Collective action they expect.
individual emotional responses they expect.

The adversary is well resourced but ultimately not agile. Their modelling is programmed to accept known inputs of both the emotional and collective kind.


I would ask those well versed in the finances of your adversary just what the cash flow looks like. My hunch is that a lot of the year's yield is built in the next few months. You must therefore target cash flow and be prepared to do so for an extended period. An unreliable schedule and individual actions that are not predictable are key to achieving leverage. Their model is not equipped for it, nor is the cash flow resilient enough.



In attacking emotionally their superior armament will cut you to pieces. In attacking collectively their superior tool set will do the same.


A slow process of undermining schedule, hurting the 'things they count' is the only way they notice the err of their ways.

[PanZa-Lead]

2 hours ago on Yammar Tom Owen ( director of personnel ) tried to explain his rationale for not giving captains a 13th month.
What a sad reflection on this company and this director. The man is totally deluded and in one fell swoop has alienated arguably the most important single group in the company. He has completely missed the concept that an airline needs aircraft, aircraft need pilots and pilots need CAPTAINS.
In any other industry such rationale might be tolerable ( few but some ) but not in aviation as he and the company at large will soon find out. We will see how popular he is with his ground staff and office workers when he is forced to lay them off because the planes aren't flying because the Captains didn't show up.
Fo's and So's can sit back, spend your 35K and enjoy Xmas. You won't be working much.

Tom Owen (manager) getting slammed on Yammer

[Sea Eggs]

Rated De

Let's fight a guerrilla warfare!! Be unpredictable. Mao Tse tung did that. Ho Chi Minh, too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare

[mothy1583]

I do so love the roar of TOGA Take-offs and full reverse on landing (gives me a 5 minute warm down before contemplating RETI). Wonder what that will cost them?

[joblow]

, whilst I also like max thrust for TO it's too easy to monitor .
Think more in terms of missed approaches , if not stabilised then execute a missed approach . If every Capt did just one missed approach per month, well you do the fuel maths . Get your thinking caps on, you collectively need to make a statement but it has to make an impact to be heard. It's time to push Back hard to demonstrate that there is a cost of goodwill. .
Sadly I suspect that there is a small group with enough backbone to do something effective , the rest will simply carry on as usual bitching and moaning but not prepared to be a part of the solution .

[anthraCX]

I’d like to see the union write to the 10 most junior TCs and the most junior STC and ask them to resign from training/step down from STC to TC on the 21st of December and to repeat this every month until the company sit down and negotiate in good faith after reinstating the RPs they stole 2 years ago. When they start negotiating and the NC report back that they really do seem to be negotiating in good faith, the resignations stop. When a TA is approved by the membership covering ALL aspects of our employment then the TB and CC will stop.

Let’s face it the most junior TCs all signed up for training very close to the red zone, using the excuse that there was no official ban in place at the time. The union also need to make it crystal clear that the ban will remain in effect until all the trainers who have resigned in the the last 3 years have been offered their training jobs back.

It’s time for our union to occupy the driving seat.

[joblow]

I hate to say it but if TC's resigned there would be some opportunist who would take the vacated position .
It's time for the AOA to get serious and punish offenders appropriately

[Trafalgar]

I do so love the roar of TOGA Take-offs and full reverse on landing (gives me a 5 minute warm down before contemplating RETI). Wonder what that will cost them?

Umm, Mothy. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you miss the bigger point. I like the silence of an airplane parked. No takeoff, no landing. The 'Sounds of Silence'. Great song. Itunes. :ok: (and I wonder what THAT will cost them...).

[Brown Nose]

I hate to say it but if TC's resigned there would be some opportunist who would take the vacated position .
It's time for the AOA to get serious and punish offenders appropriately

There already are vacant positions that aren't being filled

[Trafalgar]

No one is going to violate the training ban (there might be one or two completely worthless and eternally ostracized individuals at most). As more and more resign, this will create an ungovernable crisis for the company. To not pay us the 13th month was bad enough. To then discriminate exclusively against the Captains was a contemptible slap too far. The company deserves all the push back that will generate. I resigned, and many of my colleagues are about to do so as well. All for the sake of not paying something that we were entitled to in the first place. Penny wise...pound foolish. CX management writ large. (and now we look forward to another year of stress and uncertainty regarding our homes. Genius, every one of them. The worlds most amazing management, worth every penny :hmm:)

[plainpilot11]

With enough pressure in the right places, we can get it back. 13th month gone is NOT a foregone conclusion. They can and will come running if we all, AOA included, grows up. AOA reminds me of the leprous old man in "Braveheart." Lands and Title, get your lands and title. And meanwhile, character and worth is flushed. Cmon AOA. We're going to do our part, you do yours.

[checklistcomplete]

plainpilot11
You are dreaming if you think this weak and ineffective union is going to do anything. It leads from behind and is now obsolete.

[Trafalgar]

THIS December is already here, and I want my 13th month.... (and if it's not forthcoming, it will cost. BIG).

[petrichor]

, whilst I also like max thrust for TO it's too easy to monitor .
Think more in terms of missed approaches , if not stabilised then execute a missed approach . If every Capt did just one missed approach per month, well you do the fuel maths . Get your thinking caps on, you collectively need to make a statement but it has to make an impact to be heard. It's time to push Back hard to demonstrate that there is a cost of goodwill. .
Sadly I suspect that there is a small group with enough backbone to do something effective , the rest will simply carry on as usual bitching and moaning but not prepared to be a part of the solution .


Spoken like a true FO! Go arounds attract direct unwanted scrutiny, if you allow too many then you are not a worthy captain and something will be done. So it’s about playing smart joblow, extra gas every sector, stay low (FL280 below the jet coming back from Japan), full rev, no reti, no directs, OTP completely out the window if there’s any MEL because you need time to fully analyse the implications......they will see a direct increased cost attributed to their actions when next month’s costs are discussed at their round table! what we don’t need is for captains to sacrifice themselves by doing G/A’s.

[BlunderBus]

That months pay equates to 70 hours assuming 900 flown .... it’s an easy deduction... 830 hours flown for D level crews...about 3 weeks worth of not turning up.

[checklistcomplete]

I have little doubt that by Monday, Wednesday at the latest the DFO, GMA, CEO and CP's will be trotting out the usual patronizing rubbish they seem to think we want to hear. That our captains are well respected not just in CX but throughout the industry. That CX captains are an integral part of the CX Team spirit. That CX captains have helped make this airline the safest in the world.
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

On their own propaganda blog "Yammar" the biggest single thread in it's history with over 140 postings and over 240 likes has been in response to the Tom Owen message trying to explain his rationale for deliberately discriminating against every single captain in the company.

Well come Monday when you are writing your patronizing garbage save yourself the time and effort. The damage has been done.

YOU NO LONGER HAVE THE CONFIDENCE OF YOUR CAPTAINS

[Trafalgar]

Hear hear. You are right. They no longer have the confidence, or respect of their Captains. The only letter I want to see from the Fleet Office is the one telling AT that what they have done is a disgrace and insult to their Captains, and to make it right. I'll be holding my breath.

[joblow]

The AOA has become totally irrelevant . They should have anticipated this outcome and had a plan of action ready to go immediately .
The sad reality of the situation is that if the AOA called for strike action there are insufficient pilots with enough backbone that would respond and walk out . The remainder would find some sort of excuse as to why they couldn't do it , just as they did in 99 . Had we called the company's bluff back then and allowed the company to fire us all, we would not be in the current predicament that we now face .
In defence of the AOA , it is only as strong as it's members, any number of whom are terrified to confront the company, yet fail to realise that 100% collective action would be like a tsunami for the company to deal with . Sure they may fire a few, but providing everyone stands united until those few are reinstated we would never be treated with such indifference again .

United we stand divided we fall.
This is our watershed moment so I ask what do you intend to do ? Stand and be counted or roll over and be a doormat for the remainder of your career

[Ipad]

I may be more pro Cathay Pacific than the likes of Traf, but I recognize a truly dumb and insulting management decision when I see one and this takes the cake. Very poor management and I expect that the late ARAPA news was a panicked adjustment when the level of anger was realized. Knee jerk management?

[Liam Gallagher]

Just want to highlight the significance of management not paying a 13th month, but paying a $35k special payment instead.

For the pilots, any 13th month, or part 13th month, would attract a further payment into the Provident Fund. A "special payment" does not attract a Provident Fund payment.

A little bit more into the Swire Bonus Pot.

Time to win... Just not for you.....

[Trafalgar]

Ipad. I'm pro CX (or at least the airline I joined). What I am definitely NOT is pro - Nazi's. And i'm not speaking of mid 20th Century history.

[back.office]

Apologies that I cannot post the following on Yammer because I may need a reference from the company as I am currently active in the job market. Having just read Tom and Tony's replies, I created an account here hoping someone here will hold them accountable.

In Tom's second post, he states all level D and above managers will not receive a bonus or an increment. This is simply not true because many are on a Swire employment contract. Only those on CX contract are subject to zero bonus and increment. Understand zero bonus is a tough pill to swallow for the captains. But it is as upsetting if not more for level D ground staff knowing the person next door on a Swire contract who got the company into this mess will get a full bonus and increment. He/she also knows it is a short term position before rotating out of this joke of a company.

Below link to 2016 annual report with notes on Directors' remuneration on pages 88-89. I cannot post links as I'm a new member - google Cathay Pacific 2016 Annual Report.

Bonues for Directors in 2016 ranged from $125k to $5,057k. I highly doubt when the 2017 annual report is published in April/May that Directors' bonus will be zero. Tom received bonus of $736k ($424k + 312k) in 2016.

Having worked at CX for six years, the pecking order cannot be any clearer.

1 - employees on Swire contract
2 - consultants, their wives/husbands and other third parties
3 - employees on CX contract

[Flex88]

Excellent reminder.

Additionally, we should all be reminded; GM's are on a separate deal as well.

They (non Swire pilots) get 13th month + another budget related bonus.

Everyone should start pressing to see what these types take home...

[Trafalgar]

Rumour has it that all senior managers (and yes, the ones on the third floor included) have received upwards of $1M hkd each to 'keep them onside' during this rather 'difficult' transition period.

[Cpt. Underpants]

You’re correct. Supposition only. I just wouldn’t put anything past these cretins.

Post deleted.

[Trafalgar]

....and my reply to your deleted post has been....deleted :ok:

[Dragon Pacific]

Cos 08 contains the following:

9.1. An Annual Discretionary Bonus equivalent to one (1) month’s Salary will normally be paid to all Officers with twelve (12) months’ qualifying service as at 31st December in the relevant year.

Further on "normally" is defined. The definition of all officers is simple and I can't see that this definition can be altered by further defining a Captain as Level D; that attribution of a Level is in anycase purely administrative.

I am not a lawyer but I would read the Cos to mean that the bonus should be paid either to all Officers or to none at all. I suggest that the AoA get the lawyers onto this straight away if they have not already done so.

[Dragon Pacific]

Your Dudeness. It was "ex-gratia"!

[claraball]

I wanted to post this to Yammer but I don't dare with their vindictive culture so I'll post here.

What I find most shocking about CX management and the shockingly patronizing efforts we've read here from two managers about how they're surprised at the reaction and how we just don't understand the intent of their decision etc. etc. Is their complete and utter inability to take any responsibility for their own actions. I have never heard a CX manager apologize for anything and I won't hear that anytime soon. Obviously Swire teaches it's little princesses never to admit any wrong doing because that may hurt our bottom line and that is all that matters. What a pathetic way to go through life. What I cherish about my membership and fellowship with the pilot community is that no matter what our differences we take responsibility for our actions and we live and deal in reality. And after I realize my own error I learn from it and I become better and stronger. Cathay was started by two professional pilots not Swire. That is what made CX a great airline with a great culture of professionalism and safety. They took care of their people and it became this jewel in the Orient. Then someone saw it as a cash cow and took to milking it. What a shame. I would like to finish my flying career at CX but if it seems that I and some of my pilot brothers have stated things that are true but may be hurtful to some bean counting manager that we would normally not say perhaps it's because I know I can have a higher paying job in a matter of days or weeks if I am forced to go that route. Working for an airline that is making a profit because they didn't gamble that airline's treasure away out of greed and incompetence. An airline where the managers own their decisions and therefore it flourishes. Did you think that having your lawyers seek out a technical error made by a recruiting company would change the fact that every major airline in China is in desperate need of experienced captains and that they have the foresight to know that in order to grow they need that experience? What are you going to do when the only pilots you're willing to pay enough to attract were mobile phone salesmen 6 months before they became pilots? Actually I know the answer. You will be off working for Coke or Pepsi or some other management bonus generator.
Some CX pilots were combat veterans for goodness sake and yet you dare invoke the words leadership and respect. What a needless and pathetic situation we find ourselves in. When I command a CX aircraft with 400 souls on board who give me their trust I carry that trust in this little place right between my heart and my brain. It's the most precious thing in the world to me and I would never betray it because I have values and I understand that greed is not a value. It is a disease. And yet I'm not even worth an email asking me if I am willing to forgo the rather creative term my gratis payment for those paid less. As I know managers will persist in their belief that it's all about the money to pilots I will reiterate no it's not. It's the principle that the company we bring so much to has showed such an incomprehensible level of disrespect to those who carry that passenger trust.

[Some How I'm Tired]

Good post Clara. Shame you didn’t add it to the Yammer manslaughter

[OK4Wire]

Good post indeed, Claraball. Even better "handle". Those were the days!

[Captain Dart]

Never got ‘Clara’, even tho’ my boat seemed to always be recovering under the only rainshower for miles around.

Good post, but it is aimed at people with hides like rhinoceri, so I would not worry about Yammer. There are still crickets chirping after the trainers’ letter to them.

[Pucka]

Malcolm, apols for the late reply but its been a manic roster with little time off, (lucky bugger with that month on month off!). Sam was pissed off that I couldn't make the wedding but even with a joker request in, 2 days wouldn't cut a trip to the UK. (apparently, it was due to .."training commitments), its truly a punitive roster system where even with my seniority, I should at least get some sort of result. Anyway, its all kicking off here..I bet you're glad you never made the move when I did, though I hear yourself and Phil are going to the 78 next year? I recall you saying that the expat benefit package will be confined to history by the new millennium, though to be fair, the slide south has been gradual but with "tricky" spikes..the snags of working with a company that rotates its management through the most bizarre of systems..can you believe that a spotty 22 year old bottle making junior graduate can be slotted into an airline and NOT screw up?..I can see THAT working in BA bro!..wish I had stayed when I had the chance..though as you might have heard from John, the promised 13 th month we get has been refused to Captains and the manager personal..ex Brit army FCS too, has tried to explain how its appropriate??all to cover up massive losses that these ******** caused in the first place! ( makes the balloon end of contract payments at Vietnam etc look like contract flying might be the way to go now).
Seems like you're on a winner with the bid line again.. another Xmas off! lucky bugger!! swop my split Taipei with you possibly..??..I don't even get NY off..whilst management slide off to Bali or Whistler for their hols…being marginalised over this whole 22 years is tiring to say the least..off to my swag now.. another min rest state side..see you enjoyed your 3 day Dallas trip.. nice pics! (maybe catch you in Dartmouth next year with the dogs.. still no sign of when th 2018 leave might be..probably academic since I"ll be back to the line by then..together with most of the other guys!!! I see Dave has joined J2..! after he left CX, it was all about.."never another airline"..we shall see!

[XFR8]

Clara,

Please put your post on Yammer. Its relatively mild compared to the warfare thats being waged on Yammer on this subject. The gloves are off.

[Trafalgar]

He/she can’t , otherwise his/her anonymity would be compromised. Don’t worry though, CX management are paranoid about PPRUNE and read every post. They are pathetic.

[checklistcomplete]

777 FTM appealing to C&T's not to resign saying "consider the money you will loose". Totally missing the point and far too late. My sources tell me a mass resignation letter being prepared. One letter, over 50 signatures and with IMMEDIATE effect. He will be out on his ar*** within days.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Unless they were the soft ban breakers!

[joblow]

The BTC's & STC 's are the most important , there aren't that many of them but without them there are no PC's which means that crews without a valid licence cannot operate .
I'm sure they won't mind the time off through no fault of their own .

[checklistcomplete]

joblow

The company has been training up ex STC's and senior sim instructors to do PC's for the last 6 months. These cowboys need talking to as well. They know who they are and we do too.

[checklistcomplete]

Leaving this forum for SLACK where the real action is.

[Flex88]

The BTC's & STC 's are the most important , there aren't that many of them but without them there are no PC's which means that crews without a valid licence cannot operate .
I'm sure they won't mind the time off through no fault of their own .

Don't forget the turds in the FTC, "Senior SI's" that continue to kick the feet out from under the general pilot population and continue to do STC work at B scale FO pay...

[Flex88]

If someone does feel like asking on Yammer (I'm a Never Yammerer)...

Cut/post this question:

Dear Director People
You indicate "no" Captains will receive the "ex Gratia" payment this year. Is it true then that "Captains", in General Manager leadership positions (e.g. General Manager Line Operations & General Manager Flying), will forgo or NOT be awarded their additional "budget" related bonus for the 2016/17 fiscal year ??
This would only be fair and put ALL Captains on an equal footing regarding financial sacrifices being made.

[checklistcomplete]

Reuters wire service in Geneva reporting RH resigning.

[raven11]

Translation...?

[BlunderBus]

It's an easy way to get rid of the senior and thus more expensive crews. They'll continue to attack until a suitable number of senior guys n gals just leave. They're downsizing anyway and it saves paying VRS costs of early retirement. Before the HKAOA sells the farm the membership must give them a list of totally unacceptable concessions including....

No pay for bunk time
Averaging overtime over 3 months... can you imagine the abuse!,
Increasing flight hours above 84 before overtime....we're already way over the industry.
Increasing the annual limit of flight and duty hours.
Retirement was savaged years ago and is crap now....no further reductions.

And removal of the complete BS that we operate under....
Free reserve for 30 days a year....who does that?!!
Last minute changes to rosters or reserve assigned at outports the minute you land from a 16 hour day...!!
Legal rest reduced to the bare minimum after long hauls at outports with no notice..!!
Putting up with crews being punished for commuting to work yet being forced to do exactly that when needed by the company to travel then operate a 16 hour day immediately on arriving at the airport!

Can you imagine a BA crew flying London to Sydney, looking forward to 36 hours rest and being TOLD on arrival that they'll be doing an Auckland turn around on that time off?!!!,

I didn't think so.

[Hadenough18]

This is a terrible attitude to have. You should be ashamed of yourself.
SO’ s and FO’s are welcome to have the jumpseat as I’m sure most of us CApt will allow.
As for landing you can have all of mine.

But this is the divide and conquer method they use.
I urge the senior guys now not to let it slip.
There ways we will get our 13th month.
Maybe we will enjoy it on a beach .....
I agree ,I’m happy for FO,s,SO,s, we have hundreds of ways to cost the company our13th month. It’s all better left unsaid.

[Air Profit]

This from Alaska Airlines: Our badges say, “Committed to Kindness” and that’s who we are. Huge thanks to our employees for what you do each day. We’re giving our employees a $1,000 bonus with the additional savings we’ll receive this year. "

But not their Captains...right? :rolleyes:

[Air Profit]

This from American Airlines: " American Airlines to Distribute $1,000 to Each Employee"

But not their Captains...right? :mad:

[Air Profit]

Remember, CNY is almost upon us.

[mngmt mole]

So, which management(s) out of AA, AS, CX do you think has the most dedicated, loyal and motivated employees? And guess which management of the three is arrogant enough to believe they are doing a great job...?

[valhalla634]

Well done to the recent CTS turnaround boys! No need to properly roster an overnight pattern when commander’s discretion is always available. Keep that show on the road and never mind the missing 13th month either.

[Sea Eggs]

Is this possibly true?

Cathay Pacific

All destinations
Over the past 28 days...

895 Weekly flights - 43 min average delay time.

20.9% Delayed flights - The percentage of total flights which arrived more than 15 minutes after their scheduled times.

Source: Flightrader24

Cathay Pacific Airways lags behind peers in fuel efficiency while Qantas is worst polluter, study finds | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2128525/cathay-pacific-airways-lags-behind-peers-fuel-efficiency)

[controlledrest]

After the insult of the company withholding 13th Month pay I decided if I wasn't going to get it, nor would the company.


At USD500 per application of full reverse in the A330, I have 'spent' my 13th month.

Loss of goodwill costs.

[Sea Eggs]

I love a slow taxi.

[Trafalgar]

I love the scenic route (no directs accepted or requested), I love not worrying about optimum levels, I love a v-e-r-y stable approach (get that Full Flap and Gear down early), I love a safe (slow) taxi. At least $5000 hkd added per flight without even trying. So far, probably up to about $100000 hkd since the 20th of December. A lot of the year left... :E

(also feel it my duty to council the younger members as to where the better long term prospects lie as far as career planning goes).

[Air Profit]

A reminder to all Captains. Please exercise extreme safety. After all, that is what our management keep claiming the airline is all about. I think that policy has cost the company a good $120K so far this year alone in my case. All about the safety. :ok: (edited for amount. a more detailed analysis came up with a higher figure:))