EVA Air's 777 hits pole during taxi at Toronto

[jackcarls0n]

EVA Air Boeing 777-300 struck pole when taxiing out of de-icing area at Toronto - Right wing severely damaged - Aviation24.be (http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/eva-air/eva-air-boeing-777-300-struck-pole-taxiing-de-icing-area-toronto-right-wing-severely-damaged/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzDz5yxyBEE

Taxiing at an airport covered with snow can be quite challenging. Most probably the reason the airplane was not on the center-line and hit the pole.

How many of you find it quite challenging during the snow season to taxi? Any specific techniques pilots use? Taxing slow helps, but still can be tough when the taxi markings, signs are all covered up.

BTW, when you hit another airplane, or pole, don't you feel a thud? On the JFK incident with Egypt Air and Virgin, seems like Egypt air didn't even realized they hit the Virgin until the tower told them to stop!

[cossack]

It wasn't snowing, just cold. There was no snow cover.
The FR track shows the jink to the right just after turning NE on V after deicing. He missed the first two light poles on his right, but not the third.
V is coincident with deice Pad 1 but deicing ops were not happening on V so the only taxi lane that should have been lit is V.
Looks like there was some confusion in the flight deck and they took a turn onto 1S which should have been unlit.
Code D and larger must use the centre deice pads. Code C and smaller may use the N & S pads to allow more capacity.

[number0009]

3:25 into YouTube video crew asks for check of aircraft OK, we don't feel aircraft touch anything, and just a little shimmy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQG0v3JXcAA-EAI.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Video here

https://twitter.com/flight2fancy/status/937153166050824192/video/1

of the lighting standard being extricated from the 777's wingtip.

Oh dear.

[hoss183]

Same a/c that hit severe turbulence last week (B-16718). They're not having much luck...

[Basil]

Why erect poles so close to the taxiway that a deviation from the centreline results in a collision?

[cossack]

Why erect poles so close to the taxiway that a deviation from the centreline results in a collision?
This is the Central Deice Facility so there are a lot of personnel and vehicles maneuvering around aircraft, often in very bad weather, so adequate illumination is required. It was a very large deviation from his assigned route.

[pattern_is_full]

Interesting that the current* Google sat. photo shows no evidence (shadows) of light poles along the south shoulder of V/icing 1C, and a construction project (sand piles, and dirt tracked onto the tarmac) at the point where they should be.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toronto+Pearson+International+Airport/@43.6690555,-79.6186211,269m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xb41d5de9c4030ec5!8m2!3d43.6777 176!4d-79.6248197

Were those particular poles a recent addition?

*meaning - out-of-date by up to a year

[cossack]

The light poles are in that image. The bases are in that thin strip of grass. There was a construction project there earlier this year to build a retaining wall but the image was taken while taxiway D was being rehabilitated.

[tdracer]

Looks like the damage stops at the main spar - fortunate since if it penetrated further there would likely have been a massive fuel leak.
Still appears it'll be an expensive fix - lead edge slats look trashed, and I'd expect damage to the nearby leading edge actuators - and the spar will need to be thoroughly evaluated and possibly repaired.

[Basil]

Good point to remember is; NEVER LET ANYONE PRESSURISE YOU.
If in doubt, stop and assess. ATC may be telling you to move, the 'Follow Me' may be telling you to move.
DON'T until YOU are happy to go.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Great point Basil.
When everybody from passengers, ramp personnel, company supervisors, maintenance and ATC are telling you to go, ignore them and ask yourself "Why should I go?" :E

[uffington sb]

There was no snow cover as stated in post 2 and shown in the video in post 4

[misd-agin]

Main spar probably needs to be inspected, if it’s bent - $$$$$$$

[triploss]

Firstly responding to the Egypt Air incident, if your nose wheel hits the lights on the taxiway centreline you hear a thud. So you would certainly hear and feel something hitting another aircraft.

Secondly responding to special technique for operating on snow covered airports. Yes, SLOW DOWN. Not sure of the technical name but I think that technique/procedure is called Common Sense.

Your nose wheel is very close to the cockpit, hence you hear and feel a lot (or less if you're in a 747/A380, where the first class passengers get to hear the concert).

Wings are a long way from the cockpit however...

[INNflight]

65m of wingspan really allows for one thing. Stay on the centreline. Oversteer turns. That's it.

Taxiing and ground ops technique is a 15+ page chapter in our 77W flight crew training manual, and for good reason.

If you don't know where you are, hold position. Get a follow me, get wing walkers. If the airport tells you there are none: Still hold position. Get anybody.
Better safe than bumping into something. Also, on the tape ATC tells them they're not in position, so clearly that was the clue where they shouldn't have taxied. :{

[JammedStab]

I notice that the first statement from ATC is that they have information from the de-icing facility personnel that the aircraft is not on the centerline. Based on the likely amount of time that it would take to taxi through this area and the amount of time it would take to relay the message to ATC, I suspect that the pole strike had already happened by the time that the aircraft was given the warning by ATC.

[Basil]

INNflight & JammedStab, agreed.

[Deepinsider]

Good point to remember is; NEVER LET ANYONE PRESSURISE YOU.
If in doubt, stop and assess. ATC may be telling you to move, the 'Follow Me' may be telling you to move.
DON'T until YOU are happy to go.

Of course you are completely correct Basil. No plane ever got hurt when the park brake was set. But! in the real daily life out there, we do pretty well have to trust others to do their job, such as the pushback driver for example. And after all, we do follow ATC instructions in the air when we can not see the other traffic.

[JammedStab]

I notice that the first statement from ATC is that they have information from the de-icing facility personnel that the aircraft is not on the centerline. Based on the likely amount of time that it would take to taxi through this area and the amount of time it would take to relay the message to ATC, I suspect that the pole strike had already happened by the time that the aircraft was given the warning by ATC.


Adding further to this statement. It appears from the information that I have gleaned from the internet, that the pole was knocked over and the aircraft continued on for a little while with the lamp from the top of the pole having detatched from it and remaining in/on the wing. It was later removed by emergency crews.

That might explain why it appears that the crew stated that they might have barely felt something but didn't think it was a collision and continued on for a while after the collision until notified of a problem by ATC.

I think it is very easly to not realize that you have hit something under certain circumstances.

[hayzel7773]

Why is there damage to the wing tip too? Part of the wingtip was dented and part of it was sheered off.

[Jet II]

Looks like the damage stops at the main spar - fortunate since if it penetrated further there would likely have been a massive fuel leak.


Its nowhere near the tank. Fuel tank stops at Rib 37 - the pole hit around Rib 47.

[JammedStab]

I hope I am not understanding your reply. Are you trying to tell me that your wing could hit something and you may not notice it?

2 years ago, I hit a bird in an A320 and I felt the impact. Very slight, but felt it. Also heard it and even smelt it(bird went through the engine).
A wing hitting another aircraft.......

I believe that this is quite possible. And there can be a significant difference between hitting something a 400 km/h(which is only about 200 knots, and 10 knots.

As well, with all the bumps that one can feel from a taxiway from rough surface to centerline lights which can be quite loud, it wouldn't surprise me if a collision sound was misinterpreted as just another bump on one of the landing gear.

[hayzel7773]

Even the pax barely felt it. They described it as vibrations that happened twice before the plane suddenly just stopped.

[Capn Bloggs]

Not to mention the unusual and unexpected force of being pulled to one side by hitting a stationary object secured to the ground.
Err, the pole was knocked over and yes, I agree with Jammed Stab... a multi-hundred tonne 777 is NOT going to do multi-360s just because it hit a skinny, frangible light pole.

Do you really think a 777 crew would just keep on going if they had any thought that they had hit something?

[JammedStab]

I hope I am not understanding your reply. Are you trying to tell me that your wing could hit something and you may not notice it?

2 years ago, I hit a bird in an A320 and I felt the impact. Very slight, but felt it. Also heard it and even smelt it(bird went through the engine).
A wing hitting another aircraft.......

I have never taxied into something causing damage so I can't tell with first hand knowledge what it is like.

But, I give you some examples....

This 747 started taxiing while still being de-iced and knocked over two de-icing vehicles.

It is obvious that they didn't know that they hit anything because they only stopped suddenly after taxiing 95 feet due to an urgent message from the ground crew.
"After he had taxied 95 feet, the captain stopped the aircraft suddenly when he heard a radio message directing him to shut down the engines. The horizontal stabilizers of the aircraft had struck the telescopic booms of the de-icing vehicles, causing the occupants of the cherry-pickers to fall and knocking the de-icing vehicles over on their sides."

Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A95Q0015 (http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/1995/a95q0015/a95q0015.asp)



These pilots hit the tow vehicle in their 747 after starting to taxi without clearance from the marshaller. The gash in the engine resulted in a significant fuel leak. The pilots thought that the impact was their nosewheels making the noise.

"The flight crew were not aware that a collision with the tow vehicle had occurred."

"During this right turn, the aircraft collided with the stationary tow vehicle. The outer side of engine number two (left inner) struck the front section of the tow vehicle, causing damage to, among other things, the engine nacelle and parts of the engine fuel system. The flight crew heard a light thud and a “juddering” during the turn, and thought that this was due to the nose wheel skidding on the ground during such a tight turn"

https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1369.pdf



If you listen to the youtube tape linked in the first post of this thread. You will hear the pilot say at 1:05 that "we didn't feel that we hit the pole, just the xxxxx of the aircraft".

[hoss183]

I hope I am not understanding your reply. Are you trying to tell me that your wing could hit something and you may not notice it?

2 years ago, I hit a bird in an A320 and I felt the impact. Very slight, but felt it. Also heard it and even smelt it(bird went through the engine).
A wing hitting another aircraft.......

Lets take a gull, say 1kg, travelling at 400kt = 205m/s
Kinetic energy is = 1/2mv^2
Which for the gull would be 0.5 x 1 x 205 ^2 = 21, 012 Joules.

The lamp post is not so clear as we dont know its exact mass in the horizontal move, but lets say it was 100kg, being accelerated up to the speed of the taxiing a/c, lets say 15kt = 7m/s
Kinetic energy = 2450 joules

The lamp post imparts approx 1/10th of the energy that the bird does.