EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades

[aussiefarmer]

From the creators of: “you gotta be 35 to command an airplane” and “we don’t understand why people talk about fear factor” comes:

“If we can’t make them stay, let’s prevent them from leaving”!

40000$ and 2 years bond for new Captains so they don’t flee in mass like they are currently doing.

They will never get it, will they?

[SOPS]

AuusieF..you are making this up....aren't you?

[Airbubba]

A good incentive to forgo the upgrade and quickly get into class at Delta! :D

I recently ran into a young ex-EK 777 captain who was thrilled to be a copilot on a 737 at United. He commented that it was like a part time job after being at Emirates. ;)

The commuter airlines in the U.S. are so desperate that they are giving Ozmates some sort of work visa to fill the flightcrew seats. :eek:

[Capn Rex Havoc]

SOPS -

Aussiefarmer is, unfortunately, not making it up. You can't make this sh.te up.

40K US - 2year bond - valid from the the PPC not the LOE :sad:

[bringbackthe80s]

??????
Is it that bad

[FreemaninHK]

yet just like in CX.. they'll still line up.. not you or me.. i've had enough. But the 20 year olds from Euro Lcc's will.

Its all pointless. Allah Akbar.. god luck.. its not in your hands.

[High Energy]

Haha, so the are working closer with the ones across the road! But it will not be a merger eh...😂 So instead they 'align' the conditions first. What's next; 12hr DHD days, stopping certain layovers, no more fancy coffees. 😉

[The Outlaw]

So...just like all the first world airlines do?

PS...they don't do that.

Only desperate poorly managed airlines do this.


Sad to watch really...

As the old expression goes..."desperate times call for desperate measures" (aka panic stations).

Things must be really bad...

[BANANASBANANAS]

So...just like all the first world airlines do?

PS...they don't do that.

Only desperate poorly managed airlines do this.


Sad to watch really...

As the old expression goes..."desperate times call for desperate measures" (aka panic stations).

Things must be really bad...

One day they will realise that there has been far too much stick and nowhere near enough carrot and that further doses of stick are now (and have been for some time) counter productive. But they aren't ready to hear it from us yet.

[bringbackthe80s]

So let me get this right, I move half way around the world, work and study hard, wait for my 35th birthday, after I’ m finally finished with my initial type rating bond I start a 40k (!) command course (??) bond because they need captains to run the operation. Bearing in mind most LCCs do not bond you for the upgrade. Mmmmmmh
I’ m basically bonded for most of my time there. Is this really happening?

[FlyTCI]

A good incentive to forgo the upgrade and quickly get into class at Delta! :D

I recently ran into a young ex-EK 777 captain who was thrilled to be a copilot on a 737 at United. He commented that it was like a part time job after being at Emirates. ;)

The commuter airlines in the U.S. are so desperate that they are giving Ozmates some sort of work visa to fill the flightcrew seats. :eek:
Initials S.W?

[aussiefarmer]

TC said a couple of years ago something along the lines of “we’re gonna create such a nurturing and caring environment that you will never think of leaving”

Nah, we might as well keep you against your will!

The organizational culture of the 1960s. The cancer of this airline.

[Cloud Bunny]

Is this official or just training college gossip for the time being?
This is not a good move if true. How about improving terms and conditions to attract the brightest and the best rather than keeping people prisoner?! Hmmmm...

[aussiefarmer]

Is this official or just training college gossip for the time being?
This is not a good move if true. How about improving terms and conditions to attract the brightest and the best rather than keeping people prisoner?! Hmmmm...

I’m having a deja vu.

When they massively increased the overtime threshold people thought initially it was a rumour.

When they started evicting people from their houses people thought it was an isolated ocurrence.

When they came up with a minimum age for upgrades people thought initially it was a rumour.

When they downgraded Commanders with tens of thousands of hours on the most challenging fleet people thought initially it was a rumour.

Oh well I guess we will keep lying to ourselves thinking this place will someday change for better. Deep inside we all have some hope.

[Airbuspilot72]

Just a quick update ...was in office today for some work, very soon they will be sending new email since it was supposed to be 4 years and not 2 years.


Any company which has to resort to such measures is giving clear signs of problem. First it was FO bond of $50000 for 5 years now this one...Habibi won’t accept that no one willing to Join EK ...... and Yes there is nothing called “Fear Factor” ...... it’s real fear....fear of flying the airplane the EK way...

every pilot recruited by EK came with at lest 4000-6000 jet hours (not the recent recruits with 1000 hours total) these pilots never had any problems in their previous life....of course, because every one submitted a no incident and accident certificate plus each pilot had a reference from his previous employer, who wrote a testimony for this would be EK pilot. These pilots after joining EK suddenly start having handling issues and all the PAMS were assessed as 3 and even 2 .....so where is the problem....is it the recruitment team who are not able to filter....or is it the training department...who think the star they wear is one from the galaxy...and they think they know every thing and fly the aircraft even better than Auto pilot:=:=

I think it’s the training department and the trigger happy Habibis who are to be blamed for EKs present image.

Most of the Airlines first have a training day and next day is PPC. At least this is how it was in my previous 2 companies. Here it’s opposite. How can you check some one when you have not let him manually fly the airplane for last 6 months. So at least first train the guy and then check him on the second day. PPC does not give a certificate that for next 6 months this pilot will not do any mistakes and all his PAMS have been assessed and fixed. Things can go wrong with anyone anytime. But then let’s fix the problem by training, not by issuing warning letters.
Hope the managers accept the problem in their management and fix it before it’s too late.
it takes long to climb but no one cares when the graph slides ...people are quick to change their bets on a promising stock

[Uplink]

Just a quick update ...was in office today for some work, very soon they will be sending new email since it was supposed to be 4 years and not 2 years.


Any company which has to resort to such measures is giving clear signs of problem. First it was FO bond of $50000 for 5 years now this one...Habibi won’t accept that no one willing to Join EK ...... and Yes there is nothing called “Fear Factor” ...... it’s real fear....fear of flying the airplane the EK way...

every pilot recruited by EK came with at lest 4000-6000 jet hours (not the recent recruits with 1000 hours total) these pilots never had any problems in their previous life....of course, because every one submitted a no incident and accident certificate plus each pilot had a reference from his previous employer, who wrote a testimony for this would be EK pilot. These pilots after joining EK suddenly start having handling issues and all the PAMS were assessed as 3 and even 2 .....so where is the problem....is it the recruitment team who are not able to filter....or is it the training department...who think the star they wear is one from the galaxy...and they think they know every thing and fly the aircraft even better than Auto pilot:=:=

I think it’s the training department and the trigger happy Habibis who are to be blamed for EKs present image.

Most of the Airlines first have a training day and next day is PPC. At least this is how it was in my previous 2 companies. Here it’s opposite. How can you check some one when you have not let him manually fly the airplane for last 6 months. So at least first train the guy and then check him on the second day. PPC does not give a certificate that for next 6 months this pilot will not do any mistakes and all his PAMS have been assessed and fixed. Things can go wrong with anyone anytime. But then let’s fix the problem by training, not by issuing warning letters.
Hope the managers accept the problem in their management and fix it before it’s too late.
it takes long to climb but no one cares when the graph slides ...people are quick to change their bets on a promising stock

A 9 year bond! Novel.

[Bus Driver Man]

A 9 year bond! Novel.
Plus the years you have to wait for an upgrade if you are not 32/35.


What's next ? Will instructors be bonded to prevent them from leaving the training department? Will Engineers be bonded? What about ground staff?
Or is taking our passports away the next step to prevent us from leaving?

[Airbubba]

Initials S.W?

Perhaps but I didn't get the name. I was in transit and saw a sticker on the pilot case and struck up a brief conversation. He seemed to be kissing the ground to be back in the States after his overseas tour in DXB.

Relatively few Americans have flown as expats (and even fewer will admit it ;)).

Seems like training bonds were tried in the U.S. a couple of decades ago but were deemed illegal in some court ruling. Another questionable practice was requiring you to resign a seniority number while you were on furlough from another airline.

I think some folks on furlough from Delta years ago got in trouble at FedEx for claiming they weren't on Delta's list and then taking some post 9-11 Delta bankruptcy payout negotiated by the union.

Anyway, the union tells us that we're not supposed to say that there is a pilot shortage, we are to announce that there is only a shortage of pilots willing to work for substandard wages in the U.S.

Whatever the case, it's been decades since the airline pilot hiring scene has been this vigorous in America. :ok:

[donpizmeov]

Bus Driver Man, the engineers have been bonded for years for each engine/airframe course they do.

[SOPS]

9 year bond...that will entice the punters.:ugh::ugh:

[sealear]

My previous airline did this too.

[GillEx737]

What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.

[Big Enos Burdette]

What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.

Put it this way, if there's no need for it, then why implement it?

It's because people do leave very soon after getting their upgrade.

[my salami]

What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.

And let's say you fail your upgrade or you are demoted while you're still within the 2/4 year Bond period?
Can you leave without paying?

MS

[Rainman7]

Ek management: Industry leaders in ignorance and arrogance; Real airlines don't need indentured servitude to keep their employees, but when have Ek been concerned about the well being of their employees.........their reputation continues to be that of a bottom feeder airline.

[Cloud Bunny]

What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.
I know 3 guys who have done exactly that this year alone. We even laughed at the last ones leaving do that if this keeps up they’ll end up bonding us for upgrade - of course we all chuckled and said they’d never do something that dumb. 🤦🏼*♂️

[what_goes_up]

I know 3 guys who have done exactly that this year alone. We even laughed at the last ones leaving do that if this keeps up they’ll end up bonding us for upgrade - of course we all chuckled and said they’d never do something that dumb. 🤦🏼*♂️
So, if it has happened, there seems to be a reason for the company to introduce this bond...

[Big Enos Burdette]

So, if it has happened, there seems to be a reason for the company to introduce this bond...
Wouldn't it be better to address the reason they're leaving, though?

[DuneMentat]

Wouldn't it be better to address the reason they're leaving, though?

That would require them to do a Root Cause Analysis :ugh:

[gardenshed]

They have, and decided that it’s all our fault for giving promenance and publicity to all their most excellent manergerial decisions.
They shall not be help culpable for the fact the train smash that’s heading this way is down to them.

[WakeTurb_69]

The bond starts from skill test, And as we know many guys fail after that point.

So if I am effectively "paying" for the upgrade, does that mean I can't be failed. If they charge $40k for a service they should train to a pass. Correct?

Lets go even further than that, If its my cheque book on the line...Can I select the trainers I want to be trained by? or the time of day I do my sims?

[donpizmeov]

Well if you think that will get you through the course waketurb you might as well ask for it.

New joiners are bonded from the skill test. Has been that way for decades. Those that don't make it through the course are asked to leave, and no money is taken from them.

The Skill test happens a bit over a month to two months before the end of the course, and its timing is a Known, as there are no roster restrictions to slow it down. If you would like to have the bond started after the initial line check, you have employed yourself with EK one to two months extra than as it will stand now.

Be careful what you wish for.

[felixthecat]

There is obviously a problem or they wouldn't need a 'solution'.

Wouldnt it have been nicer to offer (and be more productive), say a $40000 retention bonus for the guys who remain for say 2 years after the upgrade and a further bonus every X years. Enhances retention and drives recruitment as opposed to pushing NAC FO's to leave before command, and further erodes T&C so as to reduce future recruitment.

I guess that's too much carrot and not enough stick though.......

[Emma Royds]

I heard there were a few newly promoted 777 skippers who resigned during the past week or so and are heading to Norwegian as DECs.

At the end of the day happiness has no price. Those that want to leave will still do so and the bond will simply be viewed as a ‘leaving fee’.

[Bus Driver Man]

My previous airline did this too. Does it really matter?
It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect you.
Just like the A330 demotions, upgrade age limit, 5 year bond, upgrade bond, increased upgrade failure rate, etc.: Initially everyone will "care", but after a few months no one really does anymore, except those who are affected.
But remember that history has proven that tomorrow a new group of pilots can be effected by some other new policy.


And unfortunately, some people here (not you, Sealear) seem to agree with management, blaming the pilots. If management would make this a better place, they wouldn't have to implements these policies. I resigned, so I guess it's my fault as well :rolleyes:

[natops]

So... 4 years after upgrade skillstest..
This will mess up a lotta guys’ planned timeline. Most people I talk to nowadays plan for 1-2 years after upgrade to bail out.
Personally I think management is just waiting to see how bad the reaction will be on their current plan.
Already having a letter ready to ‘correct’ this to a 1 year bond.
Reactive decision making...

I call it a panic decision, without willing to address the real cause of the attrition rate.
How long can they play this game, I dont know. Too long for sure.

Anybody keeping up with the senioritylist and willing to share howmany pilots we gained, netto, the last 12 months?

[halas]

Many here talking about management failure to address this issue when it's obvious management has failed with in.
Who is "the" management of fleet and training?
One fella when there used to be three doing the job.
He was in over his head the first time in 2008, returned to his old title to have another crack in 2015, now has three hats to wear.
Nothing will get better under the current "no fear" leadership.

halas

[thenumberpilot]

..
Anybody keeping up with the senioritylist and willing to share how many pilots we gained, netto, the last 12 months?
The most junior guy 11 month ago has gained about 200 spots making the attrition rate around 5.2%
All time high was in second half of February 2017 with around 4250
As of a couple of weeks ago the total number was 4200.
The rate the last six month has been for every two pilots leaving one is joining.

[Matvey]

Relatively few Americans have flown as expats (and even fewer will admit it ;)).

Taxation on worldwide income keeps most of us at home unless there's a VERY good reason otherwise. If you're moving to a low/no-tax environment, you need a much larger differential to satisfy the "expat bonus" and still stay ahead of the taxman.

[Airbubba]

Living in Dubai is probably an upgrade for some nationalities but it's a hardship tour for most Americans in my view.

Anyway, some right seat widebody time is probably enough to get you an interview with a U.S. carrier these days. Some folks get hired by cargo outfits like Atlas, get the B-744 P2 type rating, and go to United before they complete OE (formerly IOE).

The only advantage I can think of for waiting to upgrade to 777 captain before trying to get on with United, Delta or American is that you will be ready when the door slams shut, bitcoin crashes and the furloughs start. I'm sure EK will take you back as a DEC, right?

Some Americans went overseas in years past because their airlines went bankrupt and they were too old to get a job in the States but too young to retire. Others did not have a 'collage' [sic ;)] education required by the major airlines. Still others had 'unfortunate dates of hire' during airline strikes and were on the infamous 'Jumpseat Protection List'.

If you're moving to a low/no-tax environment, you need a much larger differential to satisfy the "expat bonus" and still stay ahead of the taxman.

And I don't think the 'expat bonus' is there anymore at EK. Five-year FO's at places like Delta make more than Emirates captains and the cost of living is much less. It's been a couple of years since I've been through DXB but it really seems pricey compared to say, five years ago. Of course, you could argue that the supplied EK company 'villas' would be worth a lot somewhere like SFO. And, you don't have to pay union dues at EK, right? :D

If they charge $40k for a service they should train to a pass. Correct?

Lets go even further than that, If its my cheque book on the line...Can I select the trainers I want to be trained by? or the time of day I do my sims?

For those folks who go to U.S. carriers they really do train you to pass the course in my experience. The idea is that you are screened as a captain the day that you are hired and almost everyone passes the command course on the first try. The line operating experience is there to build confidence, not destroy it.

And, perhaps not for the initial course, but after the first year you can indeed bid for your sim times and refuse to train with someone under most U.S. airline contracts.

It's a different attitude from many overseas programs. I've mentioned here before running into the Qantas crew in SEL (before ICN was open). They were bragging that their command training was so good that only about half of the enrollees pass on the first try. I was impressed but not favorably. :)

[felixthecat]

Five-year FO's at places like Delta make more than Emirates captains



That I find hard to believe, possibly if people don't add in the housing allowance. In Delta your salary will have to cover your housing, so for a fair comparison you need to add it in, else you are comparing apples to pears. Also, are you comparing take home in Delta to take home in Emirates or gross pre-tax.

[harry the cod]

felixthecat

Just ignore him. He's often on here extolling the virtues of the big US carriers and seems to know a huge a amount about EK & Dubai despite not working or living here. His posts would have more credibility were those two facts somewhat different.

Having said that, I have no doubt in my mind that those fortunate to be employed by the 'Majors' and who are fairly senior, with the right base and right aircraft have an easier and more 'protected' lifestyle than many in EK. The trips on the 380 are getting harder with busier rosters now and the Company will dismiss you for screwing up. No amount of emails or video about disregarding the fear factor can overcome the reality. Words are cheap, action is what's important. If the Moscow crew are still here by Christmas, then and only then, will the Companies promise hold true and pilots start believing the rhetoric.

As for the US command courses, Airbubba is correct but it comes with naivety. The main US airlines are heavily Union protected and the upgrade courses are rarely more then a handling exercise in the left seat. They are not as comprehensive as those like Qantas, BA or EK's. There are individuals who will get through by nothing more than luck and seniority. If he thinks that's acceptable, then his view on command standards is very different to many others I'm sure.

So too I'd imagine from the victims of the Colgan air crash that had a below average performing F/O promoted to Captain without the correct filters and checks.

Harry

[Eau de Boeing]

Harry, the Moscow crew said dasvidaniya some time ago.

[Dropp the Pilot]

During the heady days when EK was hiring DECs, our recruitment team was astonished by the abilities of the everyone-passes-the-command-course-on-first-try folks from Murka.

Two reside in memory. The first, asked to do a visual circuit from 12R, took off, turned south, became disoriented, and never turned again. The second, asked to track to the Sharjah VOR using only the RMI needles, flew to Sharjah very well. Arriving there, as the needles laid off to the left, he aggresively tracked them in ever tightening left 360 turns until the result was aerobatic.

I'm sure they do pass on the first try, but what can it possibly mean to say so if you have no standards whatsoever.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Harry If the Moscow crew are still here by Christmas, then and only then, will the Companies promise hold true and pilots start believing the rhetoric.

Both Moscow guys are definitely no longer with Emirates :{

[givemewings]

they just get dumber as they go....

It's not the worst deal I've seen.

Wait til they make it retroactive to all captains, they can do that btw, the contract ain't worth wiping your ass with in that part of the world. They can do what they want and they have the money to wait you out if you try to go the legal route.

Have to love the comment about US line training there not to destroy confidence. We're talking about EK here. The apparent methodology at EK is to get you second guessing yourself and have that fear in the back of your mind. There's the saying 'you're only as good as your last flight'. They could give two craps if you've served them loyally for years, one screw up* and you're done. (And by screw up* it doesn't even have to be a mistake on your side, it can be on the say so of some passenger is who is mildly related to the maid of someone with some wasta) I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.

it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.

I since pulled the pin and do not miss it one bit, only the friends I left. I wouldn't work for them again if they offered me a million bucks, some things are worth more than your health and dignity.

This latest move sure doesn't make them look good. And as for the 'youngsters'.... most of them are up to their eyeballs in P2F debt, can they really throw another 40k on top of it (as well as whatever the initial bond is?)

[pilotguy1222]

I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.


Wow. Had not heard that one.

I do know that EK has only landed 72 new joiners for the 380 this year. About 25% of what they were looking for.

It is possible for a 5 year Delta FO to make EK CA money AFTER taxes, but they would need a maximum line and at least 1 green slip trip per month. That means your are working the same days off as at EK.

I used to promote and defend EK. Now I am disenchanted, at best. No good news next April will have me sticking my foot out the door.

[harry the cod]

pilotguy1222

I doubt you'd be alone. Sadly, some of our senior managers think the 'package' is acceptable and that other 'unknown reasons' are to blame, although they can't seem to quite work out what.....hence the fleet meetings at the RTGS days!

[Airbubba]

It is possible for a 5 year Delta FO to make EK CA money AFTER taxes, but they would need a maximum line and at least 1 green slip trip per month. That means your are working the same days off as at EK.

And just for reference, here are the Delta pilot rates from sister forum APC:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines

I believe these rates go up every couple of years over the life of the current pilot contract. There are also trip rigs and duty rigs so you get paid for credit hours that you don't actually fly. And when you upgrade, your longevity in position still goes from your date of hire. Does it work that way at EK? At some overseas carriers you start off on first year captain's pay when you upgrade from FO.

More PPRuNe expat discussion of current American wages here:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/602151-american-airlines-pay-their-single-aisle-captains-average-268-000-year.html

[Airbubba]

As a long time instructor and examiner at Emirates and one of the senior Americans, until I left, I find a lot wrong with your post, but I'll concentrate on this part for now.

Lemme guess, you went to DXB because you found the captain training standards at Airways just weren't high enough? ;)

Have to love the comment about US line training there not to destroy confidence. We're talking about EK here. The apparent methodology at EK is to get you second guessing yourself and have that fear in the back of your mind. There's the saying 'you're only as good as your last flight'. They could give two craps if you've served them loyally for years, one screw up* and you're done. (And by screw up* it doesn't even have to be a mistake on your side, it can be on the say so of some passenger is who is mildly related to the maid of someone with some wasta) I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.

it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.

Like I said, it's a different attitude in America. I've always prepared for training and tried to pass the checkride on the first three tries. And I can honestly say that I've never felt commercial pressure to change a command decision. You can get fired at a U.S. union airline but you have to work pretty hard at it in my view.

I will agree that American training has been dumbed down in the past couple of decades in part to embrace a broader, more inclusive and diverse demographic.

[FUSE PLUG]

So let me get this straight. Captains at EK leave so frequently that the company is placing a training bond... on CAPTAINS! Don’t you see why EK is a joke around the globe? Why would a captain even need a bond in the first place? Why would he/she ever want to leave a high paying and prestigious job flying wide-body aircraft? We all know the answer to that rhetorical question. Which is now why you have a training bond.

What I can’t seem to figure out though, is how does this thread drift to besmirching American pilots? How is it that you guys manage to, once again, reduce yourselves to petty bickering about made up operational inequities in Americans? To disparage the flying abilities of an entire nationality is ignorant.

Former ek skipper here. Now 3 years at United. I have insight on both sides discussed and I want to comment.

The truth: I currently fly international, and the captains I share the cockpit with are just as skilled as the ones I worked with when I was at EK. The vast majority here at UA are fantastic and professional aviators. They earned their seat through study, through seniority and their command ability is at just as high of a standard as you have at EK. Training here is not a walk in the park and guys do get caught up from time to time. American pilots are your peers, and deserve just as much respect as you would give to anyone else. They also make more money than you... and have more time off... and don’t need a training bond. Which leads me to believe that maybe you guys are just a bit jealous and resort to insulting their flying skills as a defense mechanism.

Speaking of money... since that was discussed in earlier posts, this is where I stand in case anyone is curious.

In terms of pure take home pay, the money I now make as an FO is not much less as my EK Capt. salary. The big difference is that I make that money while working far fewer days. I get 5 to 6 more days off per month than I did while at EK. Thats an extra 60 days (2 months) off per year! If you figure $ per day worked, I make more than an EK skipper on the days when I have to work. No question. The way I see it, I was flying 2 extra months per year for free when I was in Dubai.

I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....

The down side: I have to drive myself to work. I also have to pay for my own house, utilities, and pay taxes but, it’s so worth the trade off for all of the other things listed above.

If I’ve come off as a braggart that was not my intent. Just wanted to give my viewpoint since mud was being slung and I have seen both sides... I miss you guys.

Keep rowing boys.

[TOGA!]

typhoon


WOW!

[Emma Royds]

Worth pointing out that nationality should and has little to do with the debate about newly promoted EK skippers and any bond liability. We keep reading about the pending pilot shortage and that pilots will be in demand. Well they are now very much in demand in the UAE! Bonding new skippers is clear evidence of this and also evidence that EK has now sunk to the embarrassing depths of being a 'training airline'. No disrespect to those who make it though the training and especially as an F/O, as you will have the privilege to fly with some of the best in the industry. For the F/Os joining with the right attitude, you can emerge to be a cut above the rest when it comes to applying for your next job. Having EK on your CV does (still) carry a lot of weight, which you can use to your advantage when the time comes. Soak up the useful tips and advice from those you fly with in the future and discard those snippets that you feel to be less useful (which happens rarely I hasten to add) but please just take any advice in good heart. Anything we pass on is for your benefit and not ours!

Back to the matter in hand, it is just sad that we have sunk to the level of being a training airline but not surprising given the lack of any succinct and clear vision, in addition to any degree of sensible leadership from those at the top. The same accountable individuals have proven to be utterly dysfunctional and arrogant, which is ultimately encapsulated with an overriding degree of weakness with how they convey their guidance and wisdom to those on the shop floor.

Come here if you want to build experience and it is a great place for that but the days of joining for a command and a career are well and truly over. I don't have an axe to grind but this is the cold reality as I see it! You will build far more experience as a person and also as a pilot in the Middle East than you would flying around and living in your own 'back yard' but only you can evaluate if it is a step worth taking.

[bringbackthe80s]

If they came up with a program offering 5 years temporary assignments taking pilots from other good companies around the world the crewing problem would be solved. They' ll find plenty of quality people willing to try life experiences as they say on here without even raising conditions..to find someone committing to the middle east for 15+ years with bonds etc?And not able to go back to a decent job in Europe/US...mmm a little bit more difficult. It is what it is and they won' t give basings or commuting contracts so something has to give.

[felixthecat]

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/602151-american-airlines-pay-their-single-aisle-captains-average-268-000-year.html[/url]

Of which paying tax takes a huge chunk out of. I have no doubt that the T&C are far superior in the US than the Middle East. However, in terms of raw take-home NET pay they are not. From what I see they are probably comparable all in.

The discussion of US pilots vs this nationality and that is childish and unbecoming of a supposedly professional group. There are good and bad pilots of all nationalities. Argue the facts and the issues not the 'sticks and stones' of the playground.

[Adam Barfy]

Of which paying tax takes a huge chunk out of. I have no doubt that the T&C are far superior in the US than the Middle East. However, in terms of raw take-home NET pay they are not. From what I see they are probably comparable all in.

The discussion of US pilots vs this nationality and that is childish and unbecoming of a supposedly professional group. There are good and bad pilots of all nationalities. Argue the facts and the issues not the 'sticks and stones' of the playground.


So if the pay is comparable but the Ts & Cs are far superior, then why is anyone still here when they could be home in the USA?

[fliion]

“I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”

If that’s true....that is impressive.

What airline do you fly for?

[felixthecat]

So if the pay is comparable but the Ts & Cs are far superior, then why is anyone still here when they could be home in the USA?

Many of the guys have returned, and many more are returning....

[CaptainChipotle]

“I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”

If that’s true....that is impressive.

What airline do you fly for?

United, Delta, American, Southwest. Any of those.

[Python27]

"only FO"

Only half pilot and half airman...

[fliion]

United, Delta, American, Southwest. Any of those.

He works at all four?

Even more impressive

[wonderbusdriver]

In said post, he writes that he has been working at United Airlines for 3 years...
(But that could be fake news.)

Bonding pilots that upgrade to the big shiny jets with the best of all contracts in the best of all cities??!!
They must be really convinced of their "industry leading T&Cs and lifestyle".

[4runner]

United, Delta, American, Southwest. Any of those.

Hawaiian, JetBlue...

[SOPS]

I'm waiting for the new ads..."I'm a girly girl or I'm a guy who likes sitting around with my mates..and we love it here so much that when we got our upgrade they bonded us for a few years to make sure we kept feeling the love......"

[pilotguy1222]

and of course we will do that just to the expats. No need to make the UAE Nationals sign a command training bon......oh wait.

[beachbumflyer]

And what if everybody turns down the offer to upgrade?

[CaptainChipotle]

Make it 10 years, people will still sign on the dotted line.

Maybe a few less, but the left seat of a shiny wide body jet and 9 days off a month seems to work just fine.

FO’s are still scared to call in sick or fatigued because it will impact their ability for command. Add in a few more years on a bond? No problemo.

Don’t worry, after 6 months in the left seat they will sign another 2yrs bond to become trainers!

[777-200LR]

Chipotle is bang on!

This has got to be one of the most twisted careers on the planet simply because we are our very own worst enemies.

[falconeasydriver]

It’s all rather simple really, I can imagine the meetings on the 3rd and 8th floors that preceded what has become policy, an amalgamation of hubris, stupidity and of course Middle Eastern anger and frustration at the gall shown by their slaves errr ungrateful employees who have decided that being an employee isn’t for them anymore.
People of free thought, in this case non bonded Captains can see this for what it is, yet another moment that they have missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
You couldn’t make it up, it’s laughable in its incompetence.

[Jack D]

As the bond becomes active after passing the Lst .... what happens if you are unsuccessful before the course is fully completed e.g during the Loe or line training ? .
Surely the bond should be annulled ?
.... but is it .. ?

[Caesar2005]

EK! thought it would be my final move! If I had my time back I would avoid being a Pilot altogether, Airlines have driven T & C to the bottom of the barrel, treated like dogs now, its sad, used to be I felt proud to be a professional, I still do, but I would be embarrassed to describe in full my lot to colleagues, no respect, just a continuous drive by petty managers to erode your career, EK was the worst in my opinion, hard work, TRE who had no idea what the word "training" meant, not all but a good portion, mgmt, say no more, clowns!Culture, non existent, climate, phew! package, not great, back in the real world now and could not be happier, focus on life, family, wife , kids , friends etc and self esteem! its great to have it all back, good luck EK and wake up!!!

[fliion]

This is the way our careers should end boys & girls.

Cap tipped to SWA & the others stateside that treat their people well.

What a shambles they have created here in Dubai.

https://worldairlinenews.com/2017/11/29/video-southwest-airlines-captain-flies-final-flight-with-two-sons/

[SOPS]

And it could be the greatest job in the world.....

[Bus Driver Man]

Make it 10 years, people will still sign on the dotted line.

Maybe a few less, but the left seat of a shiny wide body jet and 9 days off a month seems to work just fine.
Picture yourself in their position, would you turn down your own upgrade? You would be jeopardising your own career.
The upgrade bond is a disgrace and of course I don't agree with it, but unfortunately this is the Middle East, where management can do whatever they want. Trying to change anything is impossible here, even by making a statement by not singing the bond and being removed from the upgrade course. If you refuse, someone else is waiting to take your place. So why would you risk anything? It's not Europe, USA or Australia where you are protected by laws and unions.

The upgrade bond doesn't affect me, but I fully understand that people will sign it.

I didn't agree with other policies that affected me and even though I tried, I couldn't change anything. I could either accept it or leave. I took the second option. And I do hope that more people will choose the same option, because that might be the only way for management to see how wrong they are.

FO’s are still scared to call in sick or fatigued because it will impact their ability for command. Add in a few more years on a bond? No problemo.

A result of the, according management non-existent, fear culture.

[jockey69]

dont understand the fuzz? they uprade you...then they bond you...to prevent you scoot with the 4stripes on super heavy metal.perfectly legit.

[Python27]

Picture yourself in their position, would you turn down your own upgrade? You would be jeopardising your own career.
The upgrade bond is a disgrace and of course I don't agree with it, but unfortunately this is the Middle East, where management can do whatever they want. Trying to change anything is impossible here, even by making a statement by not singing the bond and being removed from the upgrade course. If you refuse, someone else is waiting to take your place. So why would you risk anything? It's not Europe, USA or Australia where you are protected by laws and unions.

The upgrade bond doesn't affect me, but I fully understand that people will sign it.

I didn't agree with other policies that affected me and even though I tried, I couldn't change anything. I could either accept it or leave. I took the second option. And I do hope that more people will choose the same option, because that might be the only way for management to see how wrong they are.

A result of the, according management non-existent, fear culture.

Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread...

[Dixi]

The unmentionable down the road is already doing it gents.
Get yourself ready and leave golden age is over in the sandpit.Safety will be affected but it is like when you sell your car and you get a phone call with the fella on the other side offering you 50%less than your price...or when you want to save on your car service and you get a sxxxxy job,eventually the car breaks and you have to spend more to get the job properly done.You get what you pay....
Cheap cheap cheap

[beachbumflyer]

Bus says, "if you refuse, someone else is waiting to take your place".
That's the whole problem of this profession, nobody cares about the others and the pilot group. That's why this career is the way it is.
And if someone gets a call from Delta, is that bond going to stop him from leaving? I don't think so.

[Bus Driver Man]

5 REASONS to stay at EK: 1) it is EK 2)A380s/B777s(+B787s) LHS/RHS HOURS 3)ROUTES/DESTINATIONS 4)PAY/PERKS 5)DUBAI look around...you will realise you are in paradise
You don't work at Emirates, do you?
All the things FlexOnTheBeach mentioned are true:
The toxic environment, the punitive culture of management, the knee-jerk reactions ("oh it was the PM's fault, let's beat all PMs with a stick and employ eye-tracking technology in the simulators, that will solve it"), and the constantly changing rules affecting our careers - all these things make the place ridiculous to work for. Add to that the coming VAT, no pay increase the last few years, no "profit-sharing" despite making profits - what incentive is there to stick around? A bond won't work, and now you just showed the pilot group that management does not care about improving or correcting the issues at hand, but will instead PUNISH you further for leaving.

Plus:
-A deterioration of flying skills because of a too restrictive automation policy and previously mentioned punitive culture.
-Training focussed on checking.

If you can live with it, if your reasons outweigh those facts or if it's worse at your current/previous employer, than yes, EK could be a great place to work as pilot.
But all the above mentioned issues created by management are now backfiring. They created the, what you call, "desperate times desperate measures", not the pilots.
It's just like Ryanair: If you don't treat your pilots well, they will leave once there are other option.

Was flying for EK a waste of time? Absolutely not. I gained valuable experience and got a very good salary on top of it. But just like many others, I couldn't tolerate it anymore.

[FUSE PLUG]

EK is forced to tie you down bcos you are scooting away with some seriously super heavy stripes/ratings."desperate times desperate measures"

Jockey... the question you should be asking is why people with four stripes and super heavy ratings are scooting.

To borrow your overused cliche, ‘Desperate times call for desperate measures.’ So too, desperate and highly expirenced skippers leave bleak conditions for more fertile grounds...

Each year when birds migrate south to escape the winter, do you also blame the birds for migrating to escape those frozen and inhospitable conditions?

FP

[I Claudius]

Eye tracking technology!

If “trainers” were tracking where hands were, EK 521 would not have happened.

Perhaps a “ trainer on this site, could bring it up with the B777 training manager. ( oh, but after the sevens are over, of course)

[felixthecat]

5 REASONS to stay at EK: 1) it is EK 2)A380s/B777s(+B787s) LHS/RHS HOURS 3)ROUTES/DESTINATIONS 4)PAY/PERKS 5)DUBAI look around...you will realise you are in paradise

Jockey69, judging by the rest of your posts that are in the 'Wannabies' section from only the last couple of years, you are a young cadet/trainee with little experience of the industry and its tactics. When you have a family and see them less and less each month, and the shiny jet syndrome has worn away then you may understand a little better.

[170to5]

In all of this, people seem to be missing the biggest issue...the bond contract says that should you fail to complete the course FOR ANY REASON (excepting medical or redundancy) you are liable to pay back the 40k.

That means that should you fail the course, or should, for example, fleet decide at the end of your course that you've had more sick days than you should have, they'll simply turn around, kick you back to the Rhs and take your 40k. Fail twice, and as the document is written, you'll physically repay them 80k.

What reasonable, independent appeal process is there? And by extension then, what is to stop them failing every upgrade on the first go and only letting people through on the second go...thereby making sure they get their 40k off each and every NaC candidate?

I used to be glad that despite all the crap here, I'd be able to upgrade here, get some good money together and leave with a strong cv. No more. I will not start any course where the financial penalty is so great and the appeals process is so tenuous. Everybody knows someone who has been kicked off a course for questionable reasons.

I am really disappointed but I will turn down any command course in this airline until this absurd clause is removed.

[glofish]

I haven't read the contract, but the way i see it, you don't have to repay anything. You simply have to stay the amount of time stipulated, or pay a pro rate of the mentioned sum. So even if you fail the upgrade, no payment or loss of salary involved, unless you leave before time.

I don't particularly such tactics, they only blatantly expose the incompetence of the management, however let's keep it in a reasonable context. Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!

[felixthecat]

Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!

DECs were bonded, but that was for a type rating and if they didn't succeed they were free to leave unencumbered.

[170to5]

I haven't read the contract, but the way i see it, you don't have to repay anything. You simply have to stay the amount of time stipulated, or pay a pro rate of the mentioned sum. So even if you fail the upgrade, no payment or loss of salary involved, unless you leave before time.

I don't particularly such tactics, they only blatantly expose the incompetence of the management, however let's keep it in a reasonable context. Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!

Glo

See your inbox!

170

[VarigMD11]

I dont understand why people are making a fuss over bonding. Its common place in most companies to tie their employees down in order to recoup the outlay for training. In my company it is 3 years F/O and 1.5 years Cpt, and that´s in Europe......

[glofish]

I stand corrected. Truly unbelievable.
So it displays not only incompetence, but borderline malice!

[felixthecat]

170to5
Could you pm it to my inbox please. I'm interested to read the detail

[170to5]

Varig

But what if you fail the upgrade, do they physically charge you for the course in your company?

170

[Jack D]

My question has been answered guys thanks .. so as I see it, if you are returned to the Rhs,for any reason, you will be bonded for a job that you already have ?? The only difference is the license will be endorsed as P1 but you can’t operate as commander ...

[donpizmeov]

The P2 rating no longer exists and is not an option once you get the new licence anyway.

[Jack D]

You’re correct, my mistake, but you cant build CM1 time from the rhs unless you are providing training . essentially it would be an extension of the F/o bond, you will sit in the rhs be paid as an f/o and still be subject to the upgrade bond, have I got that right ?

[Neptune Spear]

Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and it’s not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!

[KippaLippa]

Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and it’s not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!

easy answer to your question:
1) Costa trolls
2) like you mentioned, people who do not have that experience. and, among those, the young and single ones.

They defend it because they like it and it gives them food.

If I could I'd quit aviation altogether.
since I can't, if I could I'd accept any job at Delta. even bag handler.
since I can't.....
in EK I stay, and I love it. wait... No.

Regards,

Kippa

[fliion]

Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and it’s not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!

Neptune

I’m a 10+ yr Capt on the tractor

Salary 43100
Flying /prod low avg 6000
Housing 16,100
Prov 6500
Per diem low avg 2000
Edu support for 2 kids 12,100 (I include this because I can use that to send them to any private boarding school in world). I do not need to live in a high Tax municipality in the US in order to get into a good school district
Medical/ dental essentially very low cost - both kids braces paid for by Co.
Transport to from work free.

So in total

85,800 = $23,315 essentially Tax free. I pay some but not much so you need to multiply that number by 1.2 to account for taxes and that’s being conservative.

That’s gross of 27,978 or $335,736pa

If you have a spouse that works you would also need to add the tax advantages to the overall picture as it would be an immediate hit to the family’s bottom line should her line of work be transferred to a taxed state. So if both parents working the tax advantages need to be taken into account - they are quite significant.

No one arguing about the treatment - it’s a pure disgrace here - but when wife and kids are happy and you add up the numbers it becomes less easy for some to justify the move while kids are thriving in school, sports & social.

The problem is the Co knows it - and it’s the handcuffs they use.

I am not for a minute suggesting anyone stay but let’s be objective when we are talking numbers.

I suspect Delta is higher than above but it’s not a no brainer even if you take away the Edu support it’s still $288,391 here - gross.

Above open to correction - and yes Dubai is expensive for staples.

Go ahead with you rates.

[You rock]

Filion.

I have to disagree

I am hearing where you are comming from. However. Your figures regarding housing cannot be compared. If you think paying 16100 aed to love in a concrete block in the desert is appropriate then that's cool. As for education. At this moment I'm not too sure yet. I have 1 child just started but I'm not sure we get same international standard as we would in some other place in the world. Just my two cents and not arguing against you.

I wonder what is worth being in the desert tho under present conditions.

At the moment there are so many contracts out there that pay more. It may mean being away from family for 2 weeks but the end game is more in the pocket I would say.

Respect for all. Fly safe folks. Just opening dialogue

[You rock]

At the end of the day. If your earning 23k each month as a 10 year captain at emirates then if your spending 20k just being here and putting up with it all then why are we here.

[fliion]

Filion.

I have to disagree

I am hearing where you are comming from. However. Your figures regarding housing cannot be compared. If you think paying 16100 aed to love in a concrete block in the desert is appropriate then that's cool. As for education. At this moment I'm not too sure yet. I have 1 child just started but I'm not sure we get same international standard as we would in some other place in the world. Just my two cents and not arguing against you.

I wonder what is worth being in the desert tho under present conditions.

At the moment there are so many contracts out there that pay more. It may mean being away from family for 2 weeks but the end game is more in the pocket I would say.

Respect for all. Fly safe folks. Just opening dialogue

Brother - I welcome the debate. I’m talking about paying 16,100 into an amortized mortgage whereby at the end of the day you are paying down a loan with the hope (I’m an eternal optimist) that the value of the property will be in the ball park when you sell it debt free.

[wo ping]

Fliion,

Thats a good post. Balanced and pragmatic. not everyone's cup of tea for sure but we all have choices.

[Townie]

Wasn't too long ago that many posts were professing that CM was coming to save us all. Guess not!!!

[Jack D]

Filion , a good nicely balanced post .
CM is an accomplished accountant specialising in developing lcc behaviours in older more stick in the mud carriers, with some success and equally some flops. No marked benefit to EK pilots will occur ... that’s not on anyone’s agenda

[CaptainChipotle]

Flion,

With much due respect, it all comes down to what you would want to get paid to be in your home country. I read your post and it’s spot on how the company corners you to stay in Dxb.

10yr 777 captain at Delta makes $335+ per credit hour. With work rules, profit sharing (that’s transparent), leave that’s awarded, sick time, and overall treatment there is no comparison. Somebody can correct me, but last year was just under 20% profit share. Do the math.

I fly a narrow body airplane at Delta and was previously an EK tractor captain. Hands down, a narrow body captain at Delta makes more money, has more benefits, and way better QOL than anyone at EK.

The ability to drop trips, move trips, and enjoy life is paramount.

You can have your money, I got my life back.

Safe flying to all,

CC

[Buford]

+1 Captain Chipotle. 12 years at EK, and now flying NB at Delta. Prefer the 777 to the Maddog but I’ve got my life back and averaging 7-8 hours of sleep a night after being sleep deprived the last 12 years.

[TineeTim]

I’m honestly perplexed that you guys are comparing EK to Delta. Delta is a first tier, first choice airline located in a first world country. Emirates is none of those things. No doubt it once was first choice, it probably was when some of you came, but those days are long gone. As Flion wrote, there are plenty of reasons people stay, and plenty of reasons why some still come, but no one should kid themselves that there is any comparison between the sh*t sandwiches continually served up out of EGHQ and the treatement exprerienced by those in a real airline.

Now, returning to the original subject of thread, real airlines don’t bond their Captains- they don’t have to.

[sealear]

Every airline is going down the ****ter, not just EK. My previous airline did, the airline before that too.... This is an industry wide problem. I'm just glad that I'm not too far from retirement!!

[Neptune Spear]

Okay I’ll give you my pay but before I dive into that I want to emphasize the treatment and conditions at both companies which is hard to put a realistic monetary value on but it’s significant.
$241 an hour X 80 paid flying hrs of which I maybe fly 74-75 and hardly ever between the hours of 11pm and 6am. In fact I only did 1 (ONE) Red Eye all of this year. That’s $19,762 which is the bare min. Most months I can do that in 12-13days working a month. If I want to pick up trips it’s usually at double time. That’s almost $500an hour. Also we get 16% since we gave up our pension so Im almost up to $23,000 a month. Yes I have to pay taxes but so does every American working in Dubai and at the high rate after the standard overseas deductions.
On just face value an EK widebody captain and a Delta narrow body captain are probably close with regards to pay but then the extras kick in and that’s where it doesn’t even get close. Ex;
I haven’t even brought up the widebodies at Delta since I can’t hold them but I think the pay is around $320 an hour.
I work 13 days.
I stay within 1-2 time zones.
I don’t work at night, in the middle of the night.
The pay comparison above is with me at 80 and EK at 95-100. That’s 15-18% difference just right there.
You get school allowance but you are suppose to pay taxes on the allowance and it doesn’t cover the whole tuition.
I have ATC the FAA and labor laws looking out for me and if those entities don’t do their job the union comes in with full force.
So if the pay is comparable but favors Delta and the intangibles aren’t even close it’s hands down Delta. Defending Emirates or by trying to justify its actions is a sick disease. It does you and your family no good. You can tell yourself many times that I’m better off in the sand but once you escape you realize what a Huge mistake it was to stay even one day longer than you have to. How many pilots that have left have said how much better they feel and how many pilots that have left say they want to come back? The answers to above are All and None.

[Macrohard]

The guy that doesn't have kids & lives in company accommodation would have significantly different figures. To include per diem is a joke?

[flyer4life]

What the US airlines offer is way in excess of what a Brit can get moving back to Europe.

So what are the options for someone who has the right to work and live in Europe only?

Fly brutal low cost multisector short haul rosters at 25% less pay as a DEC than our Delta friends,with only 10/11 days off a month (pinched by finishing late and starting early) and no way to control your roster? Or start at the bottom of a long list with a load of twenty somethings at BA or Virgin, more than halving your take home pay while aged in your forties?

Without the option of the wonderful US airlines, one can see why an EK captain would stay put and try to rationalise that it ain’t that bad.

Seniority ruins this career and stops the healthy movement of experienced labour that forces employers in other industries to up their game and retain staff.

[pilotguy1222]

dont understand the fuzz? they uprade you...then they bond you...to prevent you scoot with the 4stripes on super heavy metal.perfectly legit.

IF they treated us properly, scheduled us properly, and paid us properly, it would not be necessary to "bond" anyone.

[fliion]

Okay I’ll give you my pay but before I dive into that I want to emphasize the treatment and conditions at both companies which is hard to put a realistic monetary value on but it’s significant.
$241 an hour X 80 paid flying hrs of which I maybe fly 74-75 and hardly ever between the hours of 11pm and 6am. In fact I only did 1 (ONE) Red Eye all of this year. That’s $19,762 which is the bare min. Most months I can do that in 12-13days working a month. If I want to pick up trips it’s usually at double time. That’s almost $500an hour. Also we get 16% since we gave up our pension so Im almost up to $23,000 a month. Yes I have to pay taxes but so does every American working in Dubai and at the high rate after the standard overseas deductions.
On just face value an EK widebody captain and a Delta narrow body captain are probably close with regards to pay but then the extras kick in and that’s where it doesn’t even get close. Ex;
I haven’t even brought up the widebodies at Delta since I can’t hold them but I think the pay is around $320 an hour.
I work 13 days.
I stay within 1-2 time zones.
I don’t work at night, in the middle of the night.
The pay comparison above is with me at 80 and EK at 95-100. That’s 15-18% difference just right there.
You get school allowance but you are suppose to pay taxes on the allowance and it doesn’t cover the whole tuition.
I have ATC the FAA and labor laws looking out for me and if those entities don’t do their job the union comes in with full force.
So if the pay is comparable but favors Delta and the intangibles aren’t even close it’s hands down Delta. Defending Emirates or by trying to justify its actions is a sick disease. It does you and your family no good. You can tell yourself many times that I’m better off in the sand but once you escape you realize what a Huge mistake it was to stay even one day longer than you have to. How many pilots that have left have said how much better they feel and how many pilots that have left say they want to come back? The answers to above are All and None.

Top drawer - cap tipped 👍

[Monarch Man]

Great so we have the inside scoop on how wonderful life is back in the US for those who have that option, I’m guessing for the vast majority it merely sounds like the usual blowhard nonsense that you got sick of hearing at RTGS sessions when the upset Americans in the class started the conversation with “well back in the states...”
News flash, the ME isn’t America, it never was and it never will be, EK for it’s part demands it’s pound of flesh as it’s the nature of the beast.
For me, no amount of money could compensate me for having to endure living any length of time in America, the pervading smell of fried food, the homogeneous and generic nature of pretty much everything including news, views and a good proportion of the populace being dumbed down is reason enough to suggest to most moaning ‘mericans’ that if it’s so bloody wonderful it’s a good idea to head home and enjoy the “good life”.
The sad thing about this latest act of management malevolence is that it merely reinforces to flightcrew the reasons why they are on their way out the door. Ultimately the bond is a counterproductive policy borne out of a flawed and ill conceived reaction by those who clearly lack the intelligence and foresight to resolve the staff retention problems that are of their own making.

[thatwasclose]

Since you are Monarch I presume you are British. I have lived in Coventry . Money could make me go back . A lot , but I got a price . Sure we all do .
Look the contracts in the states are great . As the well as it being a diverse country with many different types of food . And many news channels in many languages. Wine , good wine . Lots of great stuff in the states . And Coventry . Think her name was Tracy .

[Monarch Man]

Since you are Monarch I presume you are British. I have lived in Coventry . Money could make me go back . A lot , but I got a price . Sure we all do .
Look the contracts in the states are great . As the well as it being a diverse country with many different types of food . And many news channels in many languages. Wine , good wine . Lots of great stuff in the states . And Coventry . Think her name was Tracy .

So good of you to miss the point Close, I hope you had protection during your interactions with Tracey.
Go back and read what I wrote...beyond my personal distaste for many American cultural peculiarities.

[thegypsy]

MM you need to sort out when to use an apostrophe in the word it's or its:{

[White Knight]

How many pilots that have left have said how much better they feel and how many pilots that have left say they want to come back? The answers to above are All and None.

To answer the second part of your question there are indeed rejoiners. And I know them personally!

Sadly we can't all live in the 'Good Ole US of A'. Unlike MM I would be very happy to take a job there and see out the later days of my career in the country where I learnt to fly and then instructed in... But we can't all get residential status!

Maybe one day:ok:

[Monarch Man]

MM you need to sort out when to use an apostrophe in the word it's or its:{


It’s autocorrect I tell ya! :ugh::ugh:

[Adam Barfy]

To answer the second part of your question there are indeed rejoiners. And I know them personally

Yeah but the rejoiners came back from Turkish when they found their pay in Liras was worthless. Doubt they would have returned from a decent contract somewhere else.

[Neptune Spear]

I don’t know how the Green Card process works but I hear a lot of accents on the VHF radio nowadays. Inquire Big Man we would love to have you.
The government knows there is a pilot shortage and the last thing they want is grounded airplanes and overpaid pilots so hence I believe a lot of overseas pilots are coming to America.
Every US airline has huge retirements so now is the time to join and the contracts are only going to get better. Contrary to what is sometimes posted here not all airlines are going down.
Good luck.

[SOPS]

Flion,

With much due respect, it all comes down to what you would want to get paid to be in your home country. I read your post and it’s spot on how the company corners you to stay in Dxb.

10yr 777 captain at Delta makes $335+ per credit hour. With work rules, profit sharing (that’s transparent), leave that’s awarded, sick time, and overall treatment there is no comparison. Somebody can correct me, but last year was just under 20% profit share. Do the math.

I fly a narrow body airplane at Delta and was previously an EK tractor captain. Hands down, a narrow body captain at Delta makes more money, has more benefits, and way better QOL than anyone at EK.

The ability to drop trips, move trips, and enjoy life is paramount.

You can have your money, I got my life back.

Safe flying to all,

CC

Yes, I left as well ( because I could afford to) and got my life back..no amount of money can replace your life..I sleep with my wife, see my kids and walk my dogs. Then a year ago, I saw a job ad that really got my life back. It said.." XXX State Rail Authority is looking for people to become Urban Railcar Drivers. Interested..we offer great conditions and a great place to work. You don't need train driving experience..just life experience..we recruit from a wide range of backgrounds"

I thought..what the hell..lets give it a go.

Then began the longest (12 months ) hardest recruitment process I have ever been through..( and I have worked for 3 airlines including EK).

My initial application was in March 2016..and the recruitment process was finalised in Feb 2017...in March I was advised I was selected to start my 30 week course in July.

And can I say..Im having a ball. I love it!!!. Firstly..it is such a lovely lovely place to work, everyone can not do enough for you.

On the first day of our course, the Head of Training came in and told us.."Guys we know you do not know anything about driving trains, Thats why the course is 30 weeks long.WE get thousands of applicants for this job when we advertise , we have selected 45 of you..we are here to train you and get you trough the course".

The whole training..11 weeks classroom and the 19 weeks "on track" training has been complete "no threat" training. I have 6 weeks left until my final check. I made a mistake today and was getting very pissed off with myself as I should have known better by now and my instructor said..."Relax Mate, stop being so hard on yourself..you have been driving trains for 10 weeks, I ave been driving 20 years and I have done the same error many times"

There are rules that need to be followed..many, just like flying..one rule is..you are issued with an "official" watch..it can be sync with the train clock and you are required to wear it while driving....you can wear 10 watches if you like as long as one of them s the Railcar Issue one.

The other day, I forgot to wear it..I realised s I got to work I had on my "normal" aviation watch. I straight away went into "EK mode" thinking, nasty emails, warning letters, meetings withe EGT. I went to see the Depot Master ( the FDM) and told him I did not have my watch...his response?...'Don't worry mate..you are not the first..you certainly won't be the last..thats why we have a box of spares..."

I could go on about the 10 weeks annual leave..the 6 week ahead rosters..

My point is..the Sandpit ain't everything no matter how much they pay..aviation ain't everything...what you need to evaluate is....when you are on our death bed will you be happy you spent that extra year in the Sandpit?

Sorry for the long post

Regards to all

SOPS

[I Claudius]

Sops, “ have you gone a little loco?”

( sorry, I could not resist )

A great post for the guys who are hanging on to the shiny jet life.
There is life after.
Well written and heartening food for thought.👍

[Xulu]

Why do US pilots always, always, neglect to mention the taxes due on their earnings? Income tax, state tax, housing tax etc.

Similary they ignore EK housing, education, medical etc.

[bringbackthe80s]

Yes, I left as well ( because I could afford to) and got my life back..no amount of money can replace your life..I sleep with my wife, see my kids and walk my dogs. Then a year ago, I saw a job ad that really got my life back. It said.." XXX State Rail Authority is looking for people to become Urban Railcar Drivers. Interested..we offer great conditions and a great place to work. You don't need train driving experience..just life experience..we recruit from a wide range of backgrounds"

I thought..what the hell..lets give it a go.

Then began the longest (12 months ) hardest recruitment process I have ever been through..( and I have worked for 3 airlines including EK).

My initial application was in March 2016..and the recruitment process was finalised in Feb 2017...in March I was advised I was selected to start my 30 week course in July.

And can I say..Im having a ball. I love it!!!. Firstly..it is such a lovely lovely place to work, everyone can not do enough for you.

On the first day of our course, the Head of Training came in and told us.."Guys we know you do not know anything about driving trains, Thats why the course is 30 weeks long.WE get thousands of applicants for this job when we advertise , we have selected 45 of you..we are here to train you and get you trough the course".

The whole training..11 weeks classroom and the 19 weeks "on track" training has been complete "no threat" training. I have 6 weeks left until my final check. I made a mistake today and was getting very pissed off with myself as I should have known better by now and my instructor said..."Relax Mate, stop being so hard on yourself..you have been driving trains for 10 weeks, I ave been driving 20 years and I have done the same error many times"

There are rules that need to be followed..many, just like flying..one rule is..you are issued with an "official" watch..it can be sync with the train clock and you are required to wear it while driving....you can wear 10 watches if you like as long as one of them s the Railcar Issue one.

The other day, I forgot to wear it..I realised s I got to work I had on my "normal" aviation watch. I straight away went into "EK mode" thinking, nasty emails, warning letters, meetings withe EGT. I went to see the Depot Master ( the FDM) and told him I did not have my watch...his response?...'Don't worry mate..you are not the first..you certainly won't be the last..thats why we have a box of spares..."

I could go on about the 10 weeks annual leave..the 6 week ahead rosters..

My point is..the Sandpit ain't everything no matter how much they pay..aviation ain't everything...what you need to evaluate is....when you are on our death bed will you be happy you spent that extra year in the Sandpit?

Sorry for the long post

Regards to all

SOPS


With the most respect, I get that you love driving trains. But please also realize that many people here do not want to give up flying and this is why the vent their (endless) moans on here. They say they do, but the truth of the matter is if they're off for a couple of months for any reason, they miss it. Sure it depends on age, when I' anywhere within 15 yrs of retiring I will not fly multiple sectors or 800 hrs a year, that's for sure. There are options though, in many places around the world, and to be honest they are not usually discussed on here (the best sign). Usually options that require not counting on the stability of a permantent contract, or a stable airline. Good people quickly find the next job though. So there you have it, the hard truth, we can't have everything. Plenty of options, choose wisely.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Passover pay? Is that kosher?

[CaptainChipotle]

Why do US pilots always, always, neglect to mention the taxes due on their earnings? Income tax, state tax, housing tax etc.

Similary they ignore EK housing, education, medical etc.

You sell your soul for a tax free salary.

To each their own. I also make investments and offset my taxable income. I didn’t ignore the cost of housing and health ins when I factored my EK pay. If I was a 10yr Delta 777 captain, I’d still come home with more after taxes, especially if I was flying 90-105hrs a month

[donpizmeov]

Now I am just a slow thinking country boy. Are you talking a Capt that has been in the company 10yrs, which seems to be the EK definition. Or are you talking a Capt that has been a Capt in Delta for 10yrs? Different animals right?

[Neptune Spear]

I was referring to a 2nd year Captain at Delta because that is what I am. The pay numbers I referred to above would be $20-25 an hr higher if we were comaparing 10 yr captains and those rates are narrowbody rates. 777 rates would be considerably higher.
Xulu you can try and justify the shalacking you’re taking at Emirates but if I can let it be known at the end of the month after all the bills were paid I have more money in my pocket now then I did at Ek and feel so much better. But you like it so that is all that matters but don’t try and denigrate or put down my Airline when you have no idea what in the he11 your talking about.
Yes I pay taxes in the US but I paid taxes to the US while slaving for EK AND I paid taxes to the UAE at the same time and it’s going to get worse with the VAT coming. At least some of the taxes will be upfront now.
But you like it so that’s all that matters.

[CaptainChipotle]

I was referring to a 2nd year Captain at Delta because that is what I am. The pay numbers I referred to above would be $20-25 an hr higher if we were comaparing 10 yr captains and those rates are narrowbody rates. 777 rates would be considerably higher.
Xulu you can try and justify the shalacking you’re taking at Emirates but if I can let it be known at the end of the month after all the bills were paid I have more money in my pocket now then I did at Ek and feel so much better. But you like it so that is all that matters but don’t try and denigrate or put down my Airline when you have no idea what in the he11 your talking about.
Yes I pay taxes in the US but I paid taxes to the US while slaving for EK AND I paid taxes to the UAE at the same time and it’s going to get worse with the VAT coming. At least some of the taxes will be upfront now.
But you like it so that’s all that matters.

What he said...

[SOPS]

With the most respect, I get that you love driving trains. But please also realize that many people here do not want to give up flying and this is why the vent their (endless) moans on here. They say they do, but the truth of the matter is if they're off for a couple of months for any reason, they miss it. Sure it depends on age, when I' anywhere within 15 yrs of retiring I will not fly multiple sectors or 800 hrs a year, that's for sure. There are options though, in many places around the world, and to be honest they are not usually discussed on here (the best sign). Usually options that require not counting on the stability of a permantent contract, or a stable airline. Good people quickly find the next job though. So there you have it, the hard truth, we can't have everything. Plenty of options, choose wisely.

I was not suggesting you give up flying, bringback,..I was just telling my story. As you say..there are choices. And I don't think people have "endless moans" on here...I would call the legitimate concerns.

[fatbus]

It bring up the question again, " why are American guys still here?"

[dubaigong]

Maybe because it is not always easy to move from one place to another so distant from each other.
It is not like moving from one state to another in the USA...
And , for me at least , it is even more difficult to move from Dubai back to home for several reasons.
School for the kids , job for the wife , losing friends , starting back at the bottom of a seniority list , going from a heavy or a SUPER to a medium Aircraft , moving from left to right again , licence approval problem etc...
I know for sure many friends here that would like to leave BUT are not able to do it right now for different reasons BUT for sure they all regret that they came here and if they could go back in time they would decide not to come...

[WB1900]

Yeah but the rejoiners came back from Turkish when they found their pay in Liras was worthless. Doubt they would have returned from a decent contract somewhere else.

Does not make Turkish a bad company, just because the currency issue

[arketip]

It bring up the question again, " why are American guys still here?"

The right question is: "why the American guys went to EK to start with, if at home is so much better?"

[dubaigong]

I think that the answer is quite easy and is also valid for some pilots coming from other countries like me.
When I left home , I had lost my job ( bankruptcy ) and was looking for another one anywhere ( not specifically in the Middle East )
I ended here but with almost no knowledge at all about the region , then I realised that a contract signed here means nothing and that conditions can be changed anytime without my approval.
I also quickly learned that every year things are getting worse and conditions almost always go down.
That you are not allowed to unify or even try to form a group of employee to just challenge the changes pushed in your terms and conditions.
Etc... so in short if I knew , I would not be here I would have choosen another position somewhere else.
So yes , you can say that it is my fault because I did not make enough research before coming BUT I did not really have any time to do it...

[Buford]

I think most of the American pilots on here who have moved back to jobs in the US share their experience on pprune to encourage other American pilots to do the same. We realize it’s hard to get a green card so it isn’t to ‘rub it in’ to pilots from the UK, Oz, Europe, etc. but it’s to let fellow US pilots know that the industry has improved and retirements/movement are happening. It’s possible to return and enjoy an improved quality of life than what EK and Dubai can offer. It’s never going to be an easy move and getting the job is the tough part but it can be done. Once done, you’ll never look back.

[perthbound]

Typhoonpilot (if my memory is correct) is a former TRE who posted here under Tartan Guy and Cpt America.
A colleague alerted me to his identity sometime back, and yes Typoonpilot was ex US air hence the reason for protecting his former colleagues in his post.

This gentleman inflicted a lot of damage while he was here and I believe has tried to return as an SFE but thankfully the company turned him.

Enjoy your down time BM.................

[LHR Rain]

Typhoon is NOT Tartan Guy.
TG was a DEC who glorified Emirates to the Wall St Journal then tried to defend himself in the 3rd person on prune.
While the US Airways pilots often lacked skills both social and aeronautical Typhoon was not one of them. Plus he was one of the smart US Airways pilots, he got out!

[fatbus]

Not the same guy! Night and day!

[donpizmeov]

Typhoon pilot equals gentleman. Tartan guy/capt America equals buffoon. Noway near being the same people.

[777boyo]

[QUOTE=donpizmeov;997896"Typhoon pilot equals gentleman"

Don is absolutely correct. I had the pleasure of flying/simulating with Typhoon in EK many times. One of the best and most professional pilots/trainers you could wish to meet.
How anyone could claim he was either or even both of the other two 'gentlemen' beggars belief.

[Airbubba]

The right question is: "why the American guys went to EK to start with, if at home is so much better?"

You never heard the word furlough?
Very few, if any, came through career choice

Living in Dubai is probably an upgrade for some nationalities but it's a hardship tour for most Americans in my view.

For Americans expat flying is the last refuge of a scoundrel. :)

As I observed earlier in this thread:

Some Americans went overseas in years past because their airlines went bankrupt and they were too old to get a job in the States but too young to retire. Others did not have a 'collage' [sic ;)] education required by the major airlines. Still others had 'unfortunate dates of hire' during airline strikes and were on the infamous 'Jumpseat Protection List'.

Sounds like typhoonpilot was an Airways East (original USAir) pilot who may have passed on the opportunity back home to operate the gear lever for a West pilot hired while he was on furlough. I've sure been on the receiving end of similar seniority list integrations myself. :mad:

My PPRuNe date of hire was even adjusted ;), you can hover the mouse pointer over my screen name to see the circa 1997 seniority number.

I would have repatriated sooner after my Middle East tour years ago but it took a while to find a job back home driving the lav truck. But at least I didn't leave aviation, right?

Here are the gushing first paragraphs from the 2006 WSJ article about EK and how this guy (not typhoonpilot) is treated like an executive vice-president in a garden spot like Dubai:

With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots Sign On At Foreign Airlines
Global Travel Boom Yields Tempting Pay for Expats; Concerns About Safety

By Susan Carey in Chicago, Bruce Stanley in Hong Kong, and John Larkin in Mumbai

Updated May 5, 2006 12:01 a.m. ET

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline’s termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding towards bankruptcy court for the second time.

But Captain Murray’s career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates airline, winging to destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He is home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package – including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and holiday – is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living here in the UAE, and “from a professional standpoint, it couldn’t be better”.

In a twist on global outsourcing, a flock of US pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in the Gulf and other reaches of the world where aviation is booming.

After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the US industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 US pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands have not been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.

At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in the UAE, across the Middle East, China, India and Southeast Asia. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes and hundreds of new jets are on order.

[170to5]

Guys

This thread started about the upgrade bond and the seemingly stringent conditions contained in it...is there any way we can make a new thread for the awesomefulness of jobs in the US please?

Even if there are no new relevant posts for a few days at a time, there are a lot of people - me included - who are paying very close attention and who don't particularly care about personal opinions about life at, and pay slips from, US majors at the moment.

The last posts relevant to the upgrade bond were around post 100. This post is number 151! All in between is squabbling about whose job (even industry!) is better that whose.

170

[aussiefarmer]

Back to the topic.

We all know that there is a significant amount of pilots that joined Emirates on leave without pay from other airlines without EK necessarily knowing about it (apart from the QF guys).

Everyone has a different deadline to decide, but EK could potentially run out of NaC candidates with the required experience for next year if the majority of these guys decide to go back home - turn down the upgrade.

[TineeTim]

Back to the topic.

We all know that there is a significant amount of pilots that joined Emirates on leave without pay from other airlines without EK necessarily knowing about it (apart from the QF guys).

Everyone has a different deadline to decide, but EK could potentially run out of NaC candidates with the required experience for next year if the majority of these guys decide to go back home - turn down the upgrade.

That’s a joke, right? Fancy a wager on it happening? After all the huffing and puffing, hardly anyone will turn it down. I’d be surprised if it’s more than 20. Even more than 10 is unlikely IMHO.

[fatbus]

I would be very surprised if more the 5% turn it down

[fatbus]

Ok 10% 1 in 10

[Trader]

There will be some who forgo the upgrade and others who do not. That simple.

If it was me my calculation would go like this: the jump in pay is roughly $3000/month. The bond is $40,000. So it takes me just over a year for the pay increase to meet the bond. So about 14 months after I upgrade I will be financially 'even' if I also resign in that 14th month (actually less, since I believe it is a declining bond - but rough numbers work for this exercise).

So each guy can calculate his breakeven point. It sucks that you essentially work as a captain but get paid as an FO but this is EK!

It won't stop people from leaving though. I have lost count of the number of FO's I have talked to that plan on leaving after getting 500-1000 hours in the left seat!!

There is a yuge (sorry, couldn't resist) number of young FO's hired over the last 6 years. I think EK believed they would come, bow down to the great god that is EK and the big jet, be forever beholden to the opportunity...and stay.

I think EK is sadly mistaken. These young guys are smart enough to see that there is no long term career here and with the hiring going on back home a seniority number is valuable.

There is also the Chinese option: one fellow has planned to upgrade, take off to China and spend 3-4 years saving like a maniac. He is 28, will be home in the UK with a fully paid house and can then earn less but be at home. Not a bad plan if it works for you!

Until there are no options or EK makes adjustments they will bleed pilots.

[alwayzinit]

Let's look at this issue from another tack.
EK are concerned that shortly after upgrading and obtaining marketable hours the majority will bang out to the real world.
Is this a valid commercial concern? Sure.
EK have come up with the, let's be honest, punitive option, bonding. This has in one step managed to destroy any loyalty or enthusiasm of these new Commanders ( Not one of whom actually applied for their upgrades but were rostered for the course and interviews).
The other "tack" I was referring to would be to do the reverse of bonding, a loyalty bonus.
$10,000 to any new upgrade who stays with EK, for say 4 years?
Small 'tatties maybe, but puts an entirely different spin on the problem and would achieve the same, if not a better result.

But hey! Who am I kidding!:ugh:

[fakenews]

Ek .. . ....

Trained and run by westerners in 1985 and now run by Arabs who think they can treat their employees like labor workers.
So much has changed over the past 18 months and to top it off 40k command bond. They are actually on the verge of implosion, stopping at nothing to save their brand name.

Good luck EK, let’s see how much money you make when your aircraft don’t have any crew to operate.

[SOPS]

Ek .. . ....

Trained and run by westerners in 1985 and now run by Arabs who think they can treat their employees like labor workers.
So much has changed over the past 18 months and to top it off 40k command bond. They are actually on the verge of implosion, stopping at nothing to save their brand name.

Good luck EK, let’s see how much money you make when your aircraft don’t have any crew to operate.

So much has changed over the last 18 months?? Try over the last 10 years!!

[sealear]

Well it's official. That's ok H, I won't be applying for one anyway 🙂

[SOPS]

Whats official?

[sluggums]

The bond...

[Python27]

James Bond

[QNHbox]

Hahahahaha:O you made my day!

[alldaysushi]

Ionic
Covalent
Hydrogen


All bonds most captains have daily interactions with.

40k USD bond...no bloody way.

Pound sand EK

Safe travels...Sushi