Well that was a big waste of time

[Scoreboard]

Negotiations over company wont reward us at a later date if we give concessions now.....i.e. we werent doing 1999/2000 again when we gave and the company made record profits which we saw none of.

Pack those bags guy this show is ******* over

[broadband circuit]

I'm shocked at your surprise

[Brokeidiot]

Hopefully the chairman gets his management position he is trying so hard for.

[Oasis]

Hopefully the chairman gets his management position he is trying so hard for.

I don't think that's the case, show some appreciation for the hard work done here.
You didn't have to lift a finger did you?

[Farman Biplane]

Unlikely, he may get a gig at RAI/Glazner....

[Brokeidiot]

I don't think that's the case, show some appreciation for the hard work done here.
You didn't have to lift a finger did you?

You obviously didn’t read the email did you! Hard work at trying to give the company concessions... sure yeah I am over joyed with gratitude!

Where was the mandate from membership to seek concessions I must of missed that survey.

[goathead]

So
It could be a very interesting xmas
Good luck punters traveling CX.
A company completely unwilling to give any concessions what so ever in the return to profits AND unwilling to provide any evidence to as to wtf the plan is to improve yield .
Mmmm , hillarious . Full Mexican stand off in progress.

[DessertRat]

Brokeidiot:

Must HAVE. Must HAVE.

[Dragon69]

as I've said before, this is reminding me more and more of the days when MG was president. An AOA completely working for the benefit of the company, not the members.

Nevertheless, as a responsible employee group, we are prepared to provide immediate financial assistance to Cathay Pacific to assist our management in navigating the current situation

I mean really, WTF? Where have you been the past two decades Daryl?

[cxorcist]

The irony in all of this is that the “sign or be fired” contract will very likely blow up in CX’s face. HKAOA’s CC and TB will continue. Attrition of trainers and other experienced pilots will accelerate and growth plans will be stymied. All that will be left are already cheap C scalers with low or no experience and other losers who can’t find work elsewhere. CX will be on the fast track to a hull loss and the only way to retain (or obtain) experience will be through bases or expensive DEC contracts. Another own goal from CX directors. Well played Swires!

[rhoshamboe]

Of course the company rebuffed the offer. You can't just give them everything they want as a first offer. You have to haggle.

[Scoreboard]

no wasnt surprised but had a sliver of hope that maybe they would negotiate in some sort of faith considering the doom they seemed to selling. Doom is still on the books due their mismanagement.....

But naw cant make a tiger changes it stripes.....as for the package atm we aint far off to the baseline of saying "why stay here?".....they want us gone and get the stupid 300 hour club their commands because they would fly for free to fly a big shiny jet. You run into them all the time and how they actually take it that they arent worth more.

[Flex88]

They will continue with the demise of our terms and conditions

[Starbear]

The Association should take immediate steps to ensure that the current (company induced) situation is made very public and very clearly both internally and externally, before the management Pravda gets in first with their pet local newspapers and IntraCX etc.

(Company PR machine is always well ahead of the employees' )

[Flex88]

They will continue with the demise of our terms and conditions

What's even more Sad is they want, for financial reasons (i.e. their profit), the demise of what, at one time, was a honoured and highly respected "Profession" and "they" with the knowing assistance of some of our finest 3rd floor " Leadership" over the past 25 years have more or less succeeded..

They see you/us as nothing more than overpaid whining Uber drivers.
Soon, when you get to your destination, the "app" that you use for that trip will make a deposit in your bank account. No Tip, no pension, no housing and "State" proffered health care only...

That my colleagues, is EXACTLY what they want and have been pushing for.

Bugle player - please play Taps..

[Flex88]

Chip, chip, chip, chip

(HPE - a way to spend money and achieve absolutely nothing except bragging rights for CX to say "we tried sooooo hard)

Chip, chip, chip, chip....

[Shep69]

The first rule of talking a crazy man off the ledge is don't let him take you with him.

Guess you could say the same for a miscreant.

Have a look around. Pilot shortage (real--maybe for the first time in a career), booming industry.

Anyone who would be even contemplating the C word or tossing it around is de-facto nuts.

When one is told things that are true and not so true from time to time, one cannot rely on the credibility of the source. Some folks are masters at blurring the distinction between wholly true and not so true. Lies, damned lies, and statistics and so forth.

Bottom line here is no one should be giving an inch and IMHO those advocating giving yards away are likely those dwelling in not so true land and in not looking out for ya land. I'd be really careful buying into ANY of this. Given the experience level of most people here, OTHER airlines have no problems running their operation profitably with better pay and conditions for their pilots. So if WE have problems doing the same it's either a false premise to begin with or mismanagement of assets.

Neither of which we are responsible for and neither of which we can fix.

And neither of which do we 'own' at this point. So our part in the equation is still the same--be paid at a level commensurate with what we are doing and have decent working conditions.

And most majors pay better. With REAL work rules. That can't be changed on a whim.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself the question if it's right to fritter away what you still have left toward an entity that's just going to ask for more and more, while continuing to behave as it has unabated. Toward which you can have no influence whatsoever in driving decisions of huge magnitude. And who may not be telling you the truth. How will you look at yourself in 10 years if you roll over and buy into this nonsense ?

CX bases in some of the most expensive cities in the world. There is a HUGE difference in the cost of living in HKG compared to that of Des Moines. Or even in the cost of living between San Francisco and Columbus, Ohio. IF it wants to base pilots in expensive places it needs to pay at a rate commensurate with where it is--same as if you'd buy a house there. How many realtors sell houses at a huge loss in San Francisco simply because their prospective buyers whine that houses are really expensive there ? If you can't pay the market price for where you want to be, it's likely that the helpful realtors will suggest you live somewhere else that is more within your price range. Pilots MAY be able to do the airline a favor by commuting, but this still has cost and scheduling constraints associated with it. Basing options to reduce costs have been on the table for years and years; largely shunned and used simply for a fleeting carrot and to keep a presence in a country.

So the solutions have been well presented and ignored. It is not the role of a pilot body to attempt to make up for this shortfall if it indeed really exists.

And one can be an enabler of bad behavior if one always gives his brother in law a 'loan' and makes up his shortfalls. It shouldn't surprise him that his BIL has been unemployed for 10 years and isn't looking real hard--and continues to lose at the track.

[Dragon69]

What's comical is how the chairman in one update states that no airline has cost cut themselves into profitability, and then in the very next update offers concessions. What am I missing?

[Brokeidiot]

Ask Oasis seems he good friends with the man in question or actually the man himself.

[Progress Wanchai]

What's comical is how the chairman in one update states that no airline has cost cut themselves into profitability, and then in the very next update offers concessions. What am I missing?

The facts.

[cxorcist]

The true problem at CX is not the cost of the pilots. Those expenses (per pilot) have been going down steadily over time. The real issue is that win-win solutions have been ignored in favor of win-lose or even lose-lose. CX feels it loses every time the pilots get anything good. This is a false assumption based on Pareto Optimality (Google it). Some issues are win-lose or lose-win, but many more are win-win or lose-lose. CX has an uncanny ability to choose the latter. They just can’t help themselves because of their institutional contempt for pilots. Pilots, like it or not, are the lifeblood of any airline. We truly are the grease that allows all the other gears to work together. Try to cut us out of the equation or minimize our role and the result is what you see now at CX. They truly believe this operation is like Coke bottling.

[Farman Biplane]

Finally, and without a 50%+1 TA! Hurrah!
Ok, so let us pay the invoice for RAI and Glazner and then channel all of the funds/effort into the MULTIPLE lawsuits/legal challenges that are still to be attended.
Perhaps the GC/NC can also come clean on the specifics of what we were aiming for in the CPS/negotiations?

[Captain Dart]

A total WOFTAM.

[RAT Management]

Oh Derrrrr!

[Farman Biplane]

It would appear that both sides have suppos(als)itories to insert! I will abstain thank you!

[checklistcomplete]

The Bible preaches "turn the other cheek" but it doesn't say keep turning until you have nothing left. The AOA has been turning it's cheek for the last 10 years and by now there isn't much face left to wipe. Time for a vote of no confidence in the president and GC and the election of a war cabinet.

[Trafalgar]

Could not agree more. And just a word to my colleagues on bases. This is as much about us as well as it is about those in HK. Once the company has neutered HK, they will come for the bases. Don't doubt it for one moment. Everyone of us needs to play our part. Support the rights, value and future of the piloting profession in CX. Either we fight together, or we'll die on our knees, one by one. This is not a game anymore. This is an existential crises within our midst. Make sure this airline realises our value over the holiday period.

[Who stole my meds]

How about you blokes get some proper negotiators in to do the talking for you.
If the bosses won't talk to them then ramp up CC/TB?

(I dodged a bullet by saying no to an SO interview, got an FO job on a jet elsewhere)

[Trafalgar]

You definitely dodged a bullet. Actually a cannon shell ! Good luck with your career.

[Who stole my meds]

Thanks Trafalgar.

Like I said, get proper negotiators. Pilot's can't go in there and bang the table making demands as easily as hired negotiators.

[Toruk Macto]

Will they talk to a non pilot ?

[Trafalgar]

Who cares. Either they talk to our reps or they don’t. Otherwise, F U and bring it on. Time to stop with the one sided bs.

[boocs]

FFS you lot!

Sadly......we live in times where the minority are having an increasingly vocal influence. And not for the good of all. Give The GC a chance. Would it be fair to say the AOA GC are trying for the benefit of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that any 1 decision made on any issue by the AOAHKG will not please 100% of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that given these unprecented times & circumstances, we should be entrusted to Their Leadership & decisions subject to a Vote amongst members?

I have no doubt that in the days and even weeks to follow, debate will be more heated (even amongst friends as well as colleagues) than a Taiwanese Parliamentary Session. But at the end of the day, give the GC the chance to present their views and reasons as to why they choose their particular path. It may seem crazy, but there may be a bigger picture to which you and I are not privy.

[Shep69]

Thanks Trafalgar.

Like I said, get proper negotiators. Pilot's can't go in there and bang the table making demands as easily as hired negotiators.

I disagree.

And do not thing pro negotiators will help all that much; potentially being a waste of money.

No matter WHO goes in there, they will do so with the constraints and deal making authority vested in them by the GC who in turn gets it from the general membership. Perhaps hired help will know the 'tricks' somewhat better (perhaps not if they haven't had specific dealings with CX) but that is about it.

The very THOUGHT that a GC would be talking to someone using the C word I find repugnant. Sure, new processes and win-wins might be achievable. To that end it might be worth talking. But if that end is NOT happening there is no need for further wastes of time and money. Better to save this to assist members in finding employment elsewhere. Or the inevitable legal battles as COSs are degraded and imposed.

What happens in any negotiations solely depends on the will of the GC and membership at large. This is what drives the train and where the power is vested. And at the end of the day determines what happens next.

NOW

The main issue here is absent a strike, the tools available in HKG have been CC and the training ban. Have these been effective ?

Depends on how you define it (and it depends on the extent to which it's followed).

The TB is (and always has been) a choke point. Not easily worked around and there are tremendous collateral costs in just keeping us current; much less in upgrading people (and the plan has BEEN to upgrade cheaper replacements for those currently in the positions). The company has bet way heavily on this and having the training assets (as well as enticing those after training to remain) is critical. So this is the first place to start.

CC reduces availability and the 'above and beyond' factor--something critical to the airline in that it runs undermanned to begin with.

These two points create a war of attrition; they don't force an outcome right away but take a great deal of time to achieve their effect.

So far they have achieved an effect in spades.

BUT

The effect they have is in reducing supply of operators. What has happened over the last couple of years is the company can't really keep the wheels on and has had to deal with dramatically increased costs and reduced supply (i.e. productivity declines and difficultly in upgrades). So CC/TB HAS been extremely effective in doing this.

BUT

The ultimate goal is to force the company to the table in order to improve working conditions and compensation. The wild card has been (and remains) what do you do with an entity that would rather sink the ship than fix the problems. Keeping the pilots happy has a relatively small cost in the grand scheme of things--especially when considering lost opportunity of expansion which the airline really needs in order to survive. To contract is to die. But this is the apparent course which the company has for whatever reason decided to embrace. It makes absolutely no business or rational sense whatsoever--with C scale pay you get C scale results--and it puts the place in an accelerating death spiral where already high fixed costs overpower the ability to climb out of it with fledging competitors who use incentive nipping at your heels and eventually overtaking you; not unlike decreasing speed on the back side of the power curve behind L/D max (which is kind of where we are at). All of the economic indicators are there.

Now we COULD put the nose down and recover (this would mean making the folks who work here happy; like right away NOW)--which would happen relatively quickly as you unload the wings (assuming you have some altitude to play with below you). But all we seem to get is management pulling further back on the stick. You can't really help ANYONE who is determined to do this; the stall is aggravated as the ship is mishandled and leads to its inevitable conclusion.

Even THINKING the C word is inconceivable in the market and any leadership who does so should probably be replaced. It would have no effect; kinda like a half-hearted bump in power when you're pulling back REALLY hard. The only net effect would be less money in pocket when the ship hits the ground. Unloading the wings MIGHT work, but this would require inflationary adjustment in pay, restoration of housing, and coherent work rules (as well as an immediate offloading of costs by going large on bases where it can). This is the COMPANY'S part in the equation and really all that can be done is steer the ship in THAT direction. IF they are unwilling to listen, it is inevitable that the ship will hit the ground and no one at the working level can fix it.

It's kind of like sitting in the back seat and not being able to override the guy in the front or get him to listen to you in any way. IF he continues to do what he does the best YOU can do is bail out before he takes you with him.

Professional talkers would have no net effect on any of this.

[boocs]

I loathe the 'Plus 1' Shep, but...
Wise Words for all. Thanks.

[checklistcomplete]

Totally disagree Shep69

Talk to the big players, BALPA, AALPA, GALPA, etc they all use professional negotiators when it comes down to the wire. Sure the AOA can negoitate RP's and RTL's but when it comes down to money ( and that is all Swire's care about, the bottom line ) then you need hard ass negotiators who are given a brief and a figure and let loose.
We are where we are because back in the day the AOA was a club, even the management were members and everything was settled over a curry and beer at Hebe Haven. They thrived on having amateur pilots sit opposite trained, ruthless management and play business school.
Times have changed and this amateurish approach must change too.
Many have made fun of AT not being able to fly. That isn't her job or her training. She is a manager and negotiator so why do we put forward pilots who think they can manage and negotiate. It's crazy. It also puts these pilots directly in the firing line. Why do it.

Get the professionals in. In the long run it will save jobs, money and maybe the airline itself.

[BalusKaptan]

You, 'who stole my meds' don't work for this Company. Thats an observation (and you point that out) not a criticism however the Company emphatically refuse to talk to anyone that is not CX aircrew/AOA. They WILL NOT TALK to professional negotiators!

[checklistcomplete]

CX management cannot dictate who they will talk to and who they won't. If the AOA chooses to use professionals and the message is from the membership then CX can hardly ignore this. Do you really think the company position is decided by those at CX City ? Their entire strategy is being planned by professionals in New York or London and the message is being delivered by the mouth pieces here in HKG.
The AOA could do exactly the same. Keep the professionals away from the actual meetings but say and do exactly as they say during the face to face meetings.
This isn't rocket science it's how business is conducted in the 21st century.

[checklistcomplete]

Please stop always looking for excuses.
Take control.

[Who stole my meds]

Well if they won't talk to hired AOA negotiators then you don't talk to them. They won't talk to professionals cause they know they have no leverage.
Do the absolute minimum till your demands are met. I've never understood why pilots (generally speaking here) have believed they're better negotiators. Is it ego???
Look at all of the big non aviation unions around the world, the employees don't do the negotiating, it's professional's.

As quite rightly said by you, I don't work there but once upon a time I was hell bent on getting a job there but no more. One thing I learned during my research for the job is since '93 T&C's have gone one way, granted, this makes negotiations on the pilots behalf difficult when there is an oversupply of pilots but the tables are now turned. Professional negotiators can make arguments that you can't. Look at previous posts quoting AOA rep's talking about concessions........REALLY? this thinking is insane at a time like this. Hold the line, you get what you want or they get nothing, simple. If all else fails, leave. I walked away from two jobs and am better off for it (but I never left without somewhere to go first)
Pilot negotiators MAY work during times of limited supply but when pilots are falling out of the trees not so much. It looks like we're on the back curve of the supply side now but it's never too late to get the pro's in, particularly when CX is in the situation where they're struggling to not only get pilot's through the training system but to get pilots with respectable levels of experience.
Just something to think about from an outsiders perspective.

PS, Nice name wantok, lukim yu :O

[Farman Biplane]

CR, you could put all those lessons on iLearn and people would still not get it!

[Trafalgar]

CR, as my one-time keyboard 'adversary', I can only state with all humility: you sir are a star. What an epic defenestration of the untold abuse, lies, deceit and outright con job this management have perpetrated against us all. You are absolutely correct: stop negotiating !! Straight to court, on every issue every time. Focus on educating the members. And on another point, the reason the company rejected the AOA's "concessions" was because due to us even offering such a thing only allowed our management to conclude we are weak and fearful. They rejected because they believe they can get more. The AOA has actually been played for the fool, and the company has taken the complete opposite attitude that DS and co. were expecting (DS, have you heard the name 'Neville Chamberlain'). That is what happens when you appear weak and conciliatory in the face of threats and intimidation. Nice own goal. Walk away NOW. File the lawsuits on Monday. It's not that difficult. And to my former colleagues in C and T. Time to get out. Do NOT play a small part in your own demise and that of your colleagues.

[checklistcomplete]

Fair enough. File on Monday.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Curtain. I haven’t laughed so much since grandma died or Auntie Mabel caught her left tit in the mangle. And the crying shame of it is, it’s all true.
Somebody (in a different post ) mentioned a recent enquiry from a prospective employer as to what had gone wrong with Cathay to precipitate his leaving. Just print that list off. Ta-da !

[raven11]

CR....excellent summation.

I’ll add one more that you forgot: 5/4/3...Ta-da!

How does that famous line go? Those that fail to learn from history....

[Dragon69]

A famous line by the CX pilot body over the years, after the fact, "how could we be so stupid to let them do that..." actually you weren't stupid, you knew very well, you were just too :mad: scared to stand up each and every time.

[Liam Gallagher]

Leverage? ..... That's something we had last year. It's been replaced by collaboration.

Curtain,,....take a "like" as you have achieve nail/ head of hammer interface.

[OK4Wire]

CR, add 2 weeks leave gone (I mean given away) in COS 94. That's right, young 'uns: we used to get 8 weeks per year, for everybody.

[OK4Wire]

1 for 1 PT credit.

[raven11]

From a bygone “negotiation”:

Company: “We propose that pilots must work an annual 30 Days of Reserve for free.”

AOA: “Agreed, but this is the last concession we make...furthermore, you must promise to “fill in the blank”, and promise to open up bases”.

Company: “Sure”