NAIPS Log In - any issues

[Petropavlovsk]

Is anyone having problems logging into NAIP's ?
Also call centre seems overloaded?

[Capn Bloggs]

Stuffed. Been like it since at least 2200Z today. Unbelievable it's still out. I blame the "descend via" documents! :} :ugh:

When you've got to use the alternatives, you realise what a great system it is.

Obviously no "rollback" button...

[wishiwasupthere]

As sure as night turns to day, you could nearly guarantee that the introduction of these GAFs was going to stuff up. Worlds best practice hey? Surely running the old and new systems in parallel for a month wouldn't have been rocket science?

[Old Akro]

As sure as night turns to day, you could nearly guarantee that the introduction of these GAFs was going to stuff up.

GAF's working well on the BOM site. This is all AsA's own work.

[wishiwasupthere]

GAF's working well on the BOM site. This is all AsA's own work.

The BOM isn't an approved source of weather (which in itself is absurd) so not much help.

[Jeps]

So can I ask a young person question. If things are still stuffed when I have to acquire weather and submit a plan do I use that telephone thingy?

[ddoth]

It'd be the ideal day to hit people up for a ramp check. Can't get the weather if the service is down :/

[Ixixly]

Actually the BOMs GAF section doesn't seem to work so great either, I select it, then have to open it and then it tends to disappear on me and says it isn't available?

[josephfeatherweight]

Good thing the weather is nice today - well, in Vic anyway...

[Capn Bloggs]

It'd be the ideal day to hit people up for a ramp check.
It'd be an ideal day for the regulator to bang on the door of the ASA CEO and demand an explanation...

[triadic]

no wx or notams on Ozrunways either.... cant log into NAIPS either

[Pinky the pilot]

Just tried to log in; No good!

NAIPS Internet Service has encountered an error
What happened
There has been an unexpected error in the NAIPS Internet Service system.

The system administrator will be advised of the details.


What you can do about it
Attempt to repeat the series of actions in the lead up to the error.

Log off and on then repeat those actions.

Close and restart your browser, logon and attempt again.

If the problem persists, contact the Airservices Service Desk (24/7) on 1800 801 960.

[Mr.Buzzy]

So I ordered a pizza online a few years ago and I still get regular emails with special offers.

Seriously, how f$&king difficult in 2017 would it be to email NAIPS users with an explanation?

Instead, there is a log in message to say “keep trying a few times” leading us to think the problem is at our end, further clogging the helpline.

Bbbbzzzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzzzz

[Ixixly]

Has anyone been able to get any information out of them? It's still down and we'd like to access the monopolised legal source of information we require to go get our jobs done!!

Their "Free Call" number just has an automated message telling us the number I've tried to call is disconnected. Have Airservices decided to just put their head in the sand?

Why are there no updates on their website at the very least with some sort of information?!?!?!?! Someones head had better bloody roll for this disgrace.

[Ixixly]

Looks like it's back up for now, for those wondering.

[thunderbird five]

Three nanoseconds after "NAIPS" was proclaimed, the very staff assigned to it named it "Not Actually Intended to Provide a Service." And that was oh, 20+ years ago.
It's all okay though - anybody that knew anything would have been shoved out the door in the 2016 900 plus cull - after all, they were only backroom non essential staff according to the CEO. No problem.

[Jeps]

Ixixly,

You had to be quick. No dice for me.

[asw28-866]

Ixixly,

I rang the 'help desk' to be be told that they were unable to either update their website, or advise of a return to service target. On the bright side, there has been a NOTAM issued!

'866

[Cloudee]

Still can't log in to see the NOTAM! Hasn't made the media as far as I can see. The silence from ASA and CASA is amazing. Where are the airlines getting weather? Suggest we send ASA an invoice for any time wasted. I'm told it's not unheard of for major airlines to bill ASA for stuff ups.

[Ixixly]

HAHAHAHA, are you serious asw? Did they really issue a NOTAM for it?!

My single biggest disgust has to be the deafening silence from ASA or CASA on this, nothing on their Facebook, no Twitter, no Emails, not a damned thing, absolute bloody disgrace. The News outlets should have a field day dragging them through the mud with this, but silence there as well?!

[Stationair8]

Normal transmission has resumed!

[triadic]

Following extract from email from one organisation:

As those who have tried today will know, NAIPS is down. Eventually I rang their helpline to be told that the problem is in the NAIPS software and the website failed to reboot after the upgrade last night to incorporate Graphical Area Forecasts. They have no idea how long it will take to fix, but have extra staff working on it and could only suggest re-trying every few hours.

No comment yet from BoM, I asked Ashwin Naidu if he knew where the problem was, but probably too busy working on it to reply just yet.

Of more concern is that mid-afternoon I tried getting Temora NOTAM on y mobile phone using Oz Runways and got the complete NOTAM set that was current on 9 NOV 2015! THIS WORRIES ME!

The good news is that it is only the NAIPS system that is down, and forecasts and NOTAM are available to airline flight ops departments and other users that have other systems for delivery of these products.

But nothing on the Airservices web site yet, or in news media, so looks like mostly GA that is affected.


Why did they not ghost the changes for a week or so first??
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[le Pingouin]

Ixixly, given that it had about as much impact on the general public as the local council office computer system being down what are you expecting? No queues out the door at check-in, no mass cancellation of RPT flights, no "chaos in the skies", no footage of bent aircraft to show on the evening news. How would you explain it in a sound bite to the masses who know nothing about GA & care even less about it?

[Ixixly]

*sigh* alas you are correct le Pingouin, I just figured with their usual level of sensationalism they could have spun something out of it, so this whole thing didn't just go quietly into the night with ASA patting themselves on the back for a "Job well done". I mean at around the time it was happening one of their top news stories was a woman who only got "5 chips" with her pub meal...

[ContactMeNow]

Weather brief via the phone was horrible. 15-20 minutes holding to be greeted with a not so happy briefing guy.. 'Hello briefing, i'm not doing Area forecasts today"..

[marreeman]

All asking where airlines are getting weather from, seems you have all forgotten about the old avfax system & are all just super reliant on technology working!

[Marauder]

All asking where airlines are getting weather from, seems you have all forgotten about the old avfax system & are all just super reliant on technology working!

The original notification also listed as unavailable til. 2000 (cough cough, it's a joke) Avfax, AERIS, Volmet, NAIPS and other.

Around 1300 utc, I was told by briefing that they too had no access to the AIS system, and to use BOM ( illegal), and they could not advise the status on any Notam

[puff]

The 'big 2' airlines(with flight dispatch departments) at least don't use NAIPS for weather, they have their own AFTNs which get the weather directly through the BOM. As this was not a BOM failure there was no lack of weather briefings available.

[Marauder]

The 'big 2' airlines(with flight dispatch departments) at least don't use NAIPS for weather, they have their own AFTNs which get the weather directly through the BOM. As this was not a BOM failure there was no lack of weather briefings available.

There is more to a briefing than just weather, i.e. notams

[puff]

NOTAMs are exactly the same

[compressor stall]

The BOM isn't an approved source of weather (which in itself is absurd) so not much help.

Just to clarify, do you mean general BOM forecast for, say, the Wimmera or central district, or the info on bom.gov.au/aviation?

[Car RAMROD]

From the BOM site, in the aviation weather section:

Accessing Meteorological Information for Flight Planning


Airservices Australia is the official provider of the Aeronautical Information Service which includes the delivery of the Bureau's aviation meteorological products. Therefore, all information for the purpose of flight planning should be obtained from Airservices Australia.

Quite clearly states ASA deliver the BOM info and we "should" (not must) obtain wx info from ASA.
I'd happily argue that aviation forecasts obtained via the BOM would be perfectly acceptable- especially when the official provider cannot well, provide!

[Marauder]

NOTAMs are exactly the same

The core source of Notams is the AIS system, which is part of NAIPS.

Notams were not available from Airservices, or Jeppesen or anyone.
Airlines did not have access either while this part was down

[wishiwasupthere]

Just to clarify, do you mean general BOM forecast for, say, the Wimmera or central district, or the info on bom.gov.au/aviation?

Either, as per Car RAMRODs (meow) post showing the warning taken directly from the BOM website.

[Lead Balloon]

But AIP GEN 3.5 says BOM is the aviation weather service provider. I’m confused. :confused:

[wishiwasupthere]

Provider, not distributor, though the wording in various parts of ERSA is vague enough that you could argue the point. There's a few 'shoulds' and 'pilots are encouraged'. The wonderfull world of Australian aviation!

[Lead Balloon]

I’m not saying you’re wrong.

But jeez - how would anyone read AIP GEN 3.5 and conclude that it was unlawful to obtain aviation weather forecasts and reports from BOM? :confused:

[compressor stall]

Could it be that as the BOM is not responsible for the dissemination of the information they defer that to ASA. They just don’t want to be held responsible if their public website goes down. That’s a world apart from not being able to use the info. Hence the disclaimer.

CAR 120
Weather reports not to be used if not made with authority
(1) The operator or pilot in command of an aircraft must not use weather reports of actual or forecasted meteorological conditions in the planning, conduct and control of a flight if the meteorological observations, forecasts or reports were not made with the authority of:
(a) the Director of Meteorology; or
(b) a person approved for the purpose by CASA.

Are the BOM aviation forecasts not made with the authority of the Director of Meteorology?

[Pinky the pilot]

A question; What do fellow Ppruners think of new format..."as requested by Aviation Industry.."

My opinion, and mine only; The old system is/was better! Grid point system gives too much information.:ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Notams were not available from Airservices, or Jeppesen or anyone.
Airlines did not have access either while this part was down
While the NIS was out, we got all the NOTAMs (airport and FIR) from Navblue. Bl@@dy awful format, but we got them nevertheless.

[LeadSled]

I'd happily argue that aviation forecasts obtained via the BOM would be perfectly acceptable-Car Ramrod,
You would be free to happily or unhappily make that argument, but the probabilities, based on the precedents so far, are that you would wind up unhappy, regardless of the starting point.
There have been a number of CASA/CDDP prosecutions over the years, on this point, the courts have found that the law is quite clear and unambiguous, you must only use approved sources.
That there is some temporary problem does not "repeal" the law. Just delay/cancel the flight to comply.
Indeed niggling and silly points like this are like pilot log books, a happy hunting ground when "they" are determined to do you for something, when the major case failed.
In one case, quite some time ago ( so don't ask me for an AustLII reference) a pilot rang a flying school at his proposed destination and a poor sodding instructor gave him a rundown on what he could see out the window.
An entirely unrelated incident brought the matter to CASA 's attention.
Both the pilot who made the call, and the instructor who helped were prosecuted.
There were no actions as a result of the initiating incident, although the FOI wanted to, Canberra made it clear to said FOI that the actions of the pilot in command were well covered by the legal rights and obligations of the pilot in command.

Tootle pip!!

[compressor stall]

Not arguing the above which are different issues, but is bom.gov.au/aviation made with the approval of the Director of Metetorñogy? If yes, then CAR 120 is pretty clear that it can be used.

[Car RAMROD]

LS, I completely understand where you are coming from, but I'd be quite surprised (especially in the case of NAIPS falling over) that if CASA tried to ping one and send said accused-dodgy-bastard in front of a judge, that the judge would convict.

The BOM website states that they are the provider for ASA. ASA, "the provider", also states in their own documentation (AIP) that the BOM supplies them. If we cannot get and use information from the provider's provider, then that's a crock.

Another thing that would surprise me is if the BOM would actually publish "unapproved" data in their specific Aviation section; that would leave them fairly open.

The term "equivalent level of safety" comes to mind.

You've stated that there have been prosecutions in this regard. Is that available for online reading and can you provide the link? I'd be interested in reading them.



Going on a tangent here, isn't the BOM responsible for the AWIS sites? They are "approved" bits of info when we tune in or phone them up and it doesn't come via ASA.

[Ixixly]

Car RAMROD, I think of the main issue is that the BOM Website does put up the TAFs, but are they necessarily the most current ones? How often do they update them? I know it seems like in our world of tech they should just be the latest ones all the time but that's not necessarily the case, it could just be a simple web page someone does up a couple of times a day as a reference.

The idea is that NAIPs is meant to give you the most up to date ones, it's assured basically, if you use it they'll be the latest, I'd suspect the ones on the BOM website are published but aren't necessarily updated as soon as new ones become available. It's why they give you that warning when you go to the site, they don't want the extra effort of putting in place the coding, personnel etc... required to duplicate what is essentially done by ASA.

This is the hazard that arises from using them and is the reason why they are a "Provider" of Information but NAIPs is meant to be our "Approved Source".

[Car RAMROD]

Then why bother putting the info up in the first place, Ix?

Their statement aboust using NAIPS, to me at least, doesn't come across as a warning. If they didn't want us to use it they'd say so explicitly (for example "Not to be used for planning"). Government departments are generally pretty good at trying to cover their own behinds aren't they?


BTW, I'm not advocating using BOM routinely as ones sole source for forecast info. It's more when NAIPS falls over like the other day. I'd be confident that one would be still safe.

[Ixixly]

That's exactly what it does say Car RAMROD:
"By entering this site, you acknowledge that this information is produced solely for use by the aviation industry, and you are aware that any information for the purposes of flight planning should be obtained from Airservices Australia."

Anything for flight planning should be obtained from ASA. I couldn't tell you exactly why they put it up, perhaps it is as some kind of back up, perhaps they have the product so they figure they should put it somewhere but won't go the extra mile to ensure it's kept up to date all the time as that's what ASA do? Maybe they have it up for people who don't have access to NAIPs for whatever reason, as in don't have a login but still want to check Aviation Style Weather?

Who knows, but it does say quite plainly that anything for the purposes of flight planning should be obtained from ASA.

[Car RAMROD]

That's exactly what it does say Car RAMROD:
"By entering this site, you acknowledge that this information is produced solely for use by the aviation industry, and you are aware that any information for the purposes of flight planning should be obtained from Airservices Australia."

Anything for flight planning should be obtained from ASA. I couldn't tell you exactly why they put it up, perhaps it is as some kind of back up, perhaps they have the product so they figure they should put it somewhere but won't go the extra mile to ensure it's kept up to date all the time as that's what ASA do? Maybe they have it up for people who don't have access to NAIPs for whatever reason, as in don't have a login but still want to check Aviation Style Weather?

Who knows, but it does say quite plainly that anything for the purposes of flight planning should be obtained from ASA.

I beg to differ Ix. Their terminology isn't explicitly preventing use of the BOM info.

They don't say "must not be used for planning" or "uncontrolled" or "not for operational use".

[Ixixly]

Once again, splitting hairs there Car RAMROD, "Should" implies that it's something you "Should" do, you do have a choice not to but should you come unstuck as a result of that information it would come back to that little disclaimer and you'd be told by BOM "Not our fault, you SHOULD have used ASA, too bad"

We all know it comes down to the legalese, if the information there wasn't up-to-date or someone hadn't bothered because it's not strictly meant for Flight Planning and you went ahead and used it not knowing there had been a change and it caused a problem it'd be the perfect loop-hole for CASA and/or your Insurance people to put the blame on you.

It's their way of saying "We put it up, but we might not necessarily keep it up to date, that's not really our job to provide for the public in such a manner, but here it is anyway and a disclaimer so that if we forget or don't keep it up to date we're not liable". ASA have a strict requirement for their information to be up to date, it's what we use for Flight Planning, if you got your info there and as a result came unstuck you'd be perfectly covered because that's what it's intention is for. Use the BOM stuff at your own risk though.

Of course, as Lead Sled already said, if you really want to go ahead and use it and it all comes undone, feel free to take it to court and see how it works out, my guess is you'll walk back out with a much smaller bank account and nothing to show for it.

[compressor stall]

There is an MOU between BOM and ASA that might have some answers.

[zanthrus]

For F*Ck sake, use whatever Met info you can get. I would sure as S&it trust the BOM over air no services, especially if their site is down. Some info is better than none. You got a window? Open it look at the weather and go flying if it looks ok. Even the nightly news weather give a fair idea of what is in store.

[kaz3g]

So does anyone have an idea when we will be able to get the whole shebang using the NAIPS App so we can save it on aiPad rather than having to find a printer somewhere?

Kaz

[junior.VH-LFA]

If you seriously are arguing you can't use the BOM info if NAIPS has fallen over, you're failing the common sense test.

[Ixixly]

Not arguing you can't use it Junior, arguing as to the legality of it. Common sense has no place in the CASA Version of Aviation.

[AerocatS2A]

So does anyone have an idea when we will be able to get the whole shebang using the NAIPS App so we can save it on aiPad rather than having to find a printer somewhere?

Kaz

Why don't you ask them Kaz? The NAIPS app is done by the OzRunways guys.

https://ozrunways.tenderapp.com/

[Lead Balloon]

The silence that screams volumes is that CASA has not made a public statement on its view as to the direct use of BOM forecasts.

Well done, CASA. :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Even the nightly news weather give a fair idea of what is in store.
I already listen intently to what Rebecca is saying. ;)

[Marauder]

OK, there is an alternative source for MET, but what about Notams.

On the night in question I was informed by pilot briefing that they had no access to weather or Notams, the whole system was down.

At least in the old day of briefing offices, there was redundancy that one office in on FIR could ring another and get Notams faxed to them.

[andrewr]

One problem with using the BOM website for area forecasts is that they don't seem to have area forecasts on the BOM website anymore.

[KRviator]

One problem with using the BOM website for area forecasts is that they don't seem to have area forecasts on the BOM website anymore.I don't think you'll be finding ARFOR's anywhere anymore....

[andrewr]

OK, you're right, they are on the BOM site at a different link. Someone needs to teach the BOM about 301 and 302 redirects.

[Dangly Bits]

Under the new CASR Part 91, you will have to carry a copy of the weather you used for the planning of the flight. 50 Penalty Units for non-compliance.

Weeeeeeeee

[gerry111]

I already listen intently to what Rebecca is saying. ;)

Over here, in the more civilised Sydney on Ch 9, we have Amber. :cool:

[Clare Prop]

Here we go again. Can't login, rang and was told it would be "20 minutes" that was an hour ago

[Petropavlovsk]

They gave a weeks notice in the header of the login acceptance page:
Software update, off the air at various times, and so on and ............

[junior.VH-LFA]

There’s a head office notam about it too.

[Clare Prop]

Yes read those but this was well outside the times in the AIC.