NT C210

[Pastor of Muppets]

No Cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/two-dead-in-plane-crash-in-darwin-rural-area-at-howard-springs/news-story/da65591267f7752d1d0048be6c39a40a)

Sad news again.

[outnabout]

2017 has been a bugger of a year for GA.

rIP.

[Ixixly]

Sad news indeed, keep frosty out there boys and girls, it can be difficult even at the best of times.

[umop apisdn]

Air Frontier 210 en route Darwin to Elcho according to NT News. :(

[compressor stall]

Reports that the wings came off?

RIP

[Flying Binghi]

ABC media is showing the rego - VH HWY

Plane crash leaves two dead at Howard Springs on Darwin's outskirts - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-23/plane-crash-leaves-two-dead-at-howard-springs-near-darwin-nt/9077452)

https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft-register?search_api_views_fulltext=&vh=Hwy&field_ar_serial=

[lurker999]

Reports that the wings came off?

RIP

Given the wings are in the trees i suspect they departed when it hit the trees.

BTW the ABC definition of Howard Springs is pretty loose.

[Bend alot]

On the little info and the statement of 2 distinct separate areas, but not seeing them.

The wing that is vertically against the tree does seem to part of a wing a fair way from the fuse (a few feet).

If this is one area and the other a few hundred meters away on the other side of the road, I doubt the wings came off but one was removed by a tree. 200 m is not very far unless you are very low such as survey - so if the wings came off I expect they would be much further from the rest of the craft.

RIP.

[Duck Pilot]

There were a few large buildups out in the area this afternoon where they come down. Looking at one photo on the ABC report, looks like there had been rain in the area.

Not good news.

[Kulwin Park]

Very sad news!! Normally the 210s are bulletproof in strength.

The CASA link above shows the CofR holder and Operator only changed last month too

[cowl flaps]

The wings didn't look like they were ripped off by impact.
The leading edges all look not too bad.

[Bend alot]

The wings didn't look like they were ripped off by impact.
The leading edges all look not too bad.

I did not see the in/bd point the wing departed - it will be localized if it was a tree trunk/s.

Impact with water will flatten the leading edge - and separate it from the rest of wing about 2 foot from wing attach point (the weak point). Have photos if you need them.


Other than that what will make leading edges look bad?

[StickWithTheTruth]

If they are relatively intact and I'm not mistaken, it wouldn't be the first time 210 wings have departed in flight.

[rioncentu]

Bend Alot. I would be interested in seeing photos.

[rutan around]

If they are relatively intact and I'm not mistaken, it wouldn't be the first time 210 wings have departed in flight. Here we go again. C210 wings are weak because they don't have struts according to ill informed people/pilots. Yet they happily jump into their strutless Bonanzas and Pipers.:ugh::ugh:

Like any aircraft they will shed wings when flown way outside the envelope or when they hit something solid enough.

[Left 270]

ABC reporting this morning that the wings were located 400m from the fuselage.

[Corvallis]

Coffin in a 210 is a tight fit. where were the 2 middle seats? what was used to support the coffin in the middle section. Were tiedown straps used to secure the coffin to some fixed point. In a turbulent situation if the horizontal stab got deflected up causing the nose to pitch slightly down, would that have caused the coffin to move fwd slightly. If it pushed on the co pilot seatback even a little distance would cause the control column to push down. That would also increase the airspeed and take it beyond va of 110 kts even with pwr off. When this company has other suitable aircraft for coffin they why the hell would you use the most unsuitable type for this job. Use a bloody 207 or bonanza or something. Wats the use of owning 60 planes when all of them are junk. own 10 and have them in good condition.

[Capt Fathom]

A moving coffin? I've heard it all now! :hmm:

[Pilotette]

As you say Corvallis, a coffin run in a C210 is definitely a tight fit. Able to be done but generally the front copilot seat is removed entirely from what I've witnessed before. I've seen milk crates used to support the coffin where the middle row seat is removed and everything strapped down. It is however possible, that if this was the case, the coffin could have shifted in bad turbulence.
If the copilot seat was removed to facilitate the coffin, this begs the question where the second person was seated in the aircraft? I've heard that this was a training flight with 2 pilots on board (admittedly not confirmed) so I'm assuming ICUS in which case the copilot seat would have been occupied.
I hate to speculate so I'll leave it there but what a terribly tragic event. :sad:

[megan]

Anyone know how to bring up the radar weather picture for the time of the event - 1330 local? Looked at the BOM site but beyond my capabilities (not hard).

[Lasiorhinus]

Weather definitely seems to be relevant. LiveATC recording has him requesting initally 5 miles left and right, of which only 5nm right was granted due to restricted airspace. The approach controller later gave him 10nm right, and at some point offered "alternative routing", so the aircraft was definitely trying to avoid something.

[CazbahKid]

BoM Darwin Airport Radar Loop - Rain Rate - IDR103 : 01:00 23/10/2017 UTC - 01:00 24/10/2017 UTC (http://www.theweatherchaser.com/radar-loop/IDR103-darwin-airport/2017-10-23-01/2017-10-24-01)

Stop at UTC 0400

[StickWithTheTruth]

Coffins come in all different sizes.

Once witnessed an operator trying to fit a coffin in his Cherokee, so when it didn't fit,he took out old mate and put him in seperate and unscrewed the coffin to make it fit.

[rutan around]

I won't comment on this accident because there is not enough accurate information available to form a valid opinion.

A common thread in any accident (C210 or other type) in similar situations runs something like this. Certain constraints eg terrain, controlled airspace, restricted airspace, getthereitis and nasty weather ahead. There's a bit that doesn't look too bad. We should be OK that way. Opps we've just gone IMC. Never mind I've got an instrument rating and an auto pilot. We'll be through this soon. There were imbedded thunder storms forecast. I hope they're not where we are. Suddenly all hell breaks loose. The autopilot disconnects and the aircraft is tossed around like a leaf in a willy willy. No instrument stays still long enough to work out what is going on.

If lucky in a few minutes the aircraft pops out the other side shaken but not broken with enough altitude to recover from whatever strange attitude the pilot finds his aircraft.

If not lucky and too close to the ground, at or beyond VNE, the heroic efforts to save the day have pulled a wings off.
Read the sickening similar accident reports going back to when man first ventured into clouds.

[Flyboy1987]

^^ as rutan around said :(
Just about every vfr topend Pilot has their own story of venturing into poor weather, seeing that little gap they thought they could get to close up before them and finding themself below LSALT, myself
Included. Even with a good autopilot and instrument rating, it’s a sickening feeling when your eyes are scanning the instrument panel and nothing seems to look familiar.
i can only imagine what was going on in the cockpit on those final moments.
RIP fellas

[Pearly White]

No Cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/two-dead-in-plane-crash-in-darwin-rural-area-at-howard-springs/news-story/da65591267f7752d1d0048be6c39a40a)

[cowl flaps]

I'd say a body bag, not a coffin.
They would have boxes at Elcho and complete the packaging there.

[megan]

Thanks Cazbah, the 0300 to 0400 loop is telling. Had rain at the airport early morning but clear skies following, in DWN at the time.

The young man, Darcy McCarter, 23, RIP youngster.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9080454-3x4-340x453.jpg

[davidclarke]

I'd say a body bag, not a coffin.
They would have boxes at Elcho and complete the packaging there.

Of all the funeral runs I did to arnehm land they were all in coffins as the body's are prepared in Darwin and transported out. They do not have the resources to prepare them remote.

[compressor stall]

Unless times have changed since my day, it's likely to have been a coffin. Usually inbound to Darwin from the community was in a bag to the mortuary for the autopsy, then back out in a coffin to the community.

[Pilotette]

Unless times have changed since my day, it's likely to have been a coffin. Usually inbound to Darwin from the community was in a bag to the mortuary for the autopsy, then back out in a coffin to the community.

Agreed, every time I've done it, it's always been in a coffin. I've always done it in either a C207 or Airvan though.

[Pinky the pilot]

Mention the words "Coffin Charter' to any ex PNG type will most likely elicit a burst of expletives!:* Especially if those two words are preceded by two extra words. "A Fane..."

In my case, if Fane was concerned; Definitely!:=:mad::mad:

[Desert Flower]

It was a YBHI aircraft back when I knew it. Probably one of the nicer 210's around at the time.

DF.

[Deejaypee]

I spoke with a mate this afternoon who is a firey who attended the site and was involved in extricating the bodies of the deceased. He said the wings were not that far apart, and unfortunately most telling that the fuselage landed horizontally, level with the terrain. The roof of the cabin was approximately 600ml above the floor. "Pancaked"!
Appears high vertical speed impact with the ground took place in level pitch attitude.
This from a semi laypersons observation.
Condolences go to all concerned.
RIP young aviators!

[Jatz]

So sad - there but for the grace of God....

For those who haven't had the experience of being wedged under a coffin in the back of a 200 series Cessna: they're tricky to get through the doors but will certainly fit with the front seats in situ (always removed the rear seats in the 206). I never experienced any weight and balance issues on funeral runs in the same region. I'd be very surprised if the cargo had any bearing on the accident.

I hope the ATSB are able to provide some answers for the families, friends and colleagues.

Keep safe, S

[The Wawa Zone]

Well, someone with the right connections is going to post the Flightradar24 paints synchronised along with the BOM WX radar sweeps, so something might come from that. Otherwise, I'd be interested in how the box was tied down and if ATSB finds the witness marks in the AH matched the nose attitude at impact.

[Capt Fathom]

I'd be interested in how the box was tied down
Are you related to anyone involved? If not, it’s none of your business!

[The Wawa Zone]

Fathom, as in .. it's freight, and I'm interested in how it (and anything else ) was tied down, ie., I'll be reading the ATSB report and specifically looking at that aspect.
Incidentally, what other bulky stuff do you think might have been in the cabin ?

[longrass]

Are you related to anyone involved? If not, it’s none of your business!

Dumbest quote of the day, a couple of boys have died and you want to start an argument. What sort of a moron are you?

[rutan around]

Post 19 suggests the coffin may have moved forward and pushed the control column forward.

Highly unlikely I think.

People have been hauling coffins around the Territory in the back of C210s for 30 years that I know of and probably much longer. I haven't heard of problems.

Coffins empty or full are relatively light ( not like a loose,full 200 litre drum of fuel that once caused a fatal) There were 2 pilots on board so between them the coffin could be quickly pushed back.

The main evidence that the coffin wasn't involved is that the aircraft impacted flat ie parallel with the ground. If the controls were pushed forward as suggested then the impact would be more vertical.

[clark y]

To see how a coffin fits in a C210 just search "C210 coffin" and have a look. The blog I found (from the Northern Territory) describes how to fit it.

[The Wawa Zone]

Realistically, I cannot see this being a full size adult coffin if there were 2 POB. My question would be was it netted down or strapped, and as they were going to YELD they would have been carrying the detached seats plus gear for the YELD base (because you always have some stuff to take out to YELD) and all that should have been tied/netted as well.
..Waiting for the ATSB report.

rutan - a loose 205L drum ??? Where was that ?

[StickWithTheTruth]

This has to be a record for pprune for the cause of the crash to be determined!

Despite terrential rains and adverse forecasts, a moving coffin is being blamed??? Surely they take all kinds of freight daily and it could move at any time??? Is it that it's a coffin that makes it a game changer???

[Pilotette]

This has to be a record for pprune for the cause of the crash to be determined!

Despite terrential rains and adverse forecasts, a moving coffin is being blamed??? Surely they take all kinds of freight daily and it could move at any time??? Is it that it's a coffin that makes it a game changer???

I agree that it's possible that the weather has played more of a part in this than the coffin. The liveATC broadcast for one, is pretty telling about the conditions at the time. The fact that the fuselage was "level" to the ground is another. They've got their work cut out for them but let's hope the ATSB can figure this out and soon for the sake of closure for friends and family.

[APMR]

ABC news reporting today that they were carrying a body bag. NOT A COFFIN.

The main evidence that the coffin wasn't involved is that the aircraft impacted flat ie parallel with the ground.You don't know what you're talking about. The "flat" attitude indicates the aircraft was either stalled, or had lost its wings.

Given the reports of the distance between the wings and the fuselage, plus the appearance of the wings, it would strongly appear that the wings had separated from the aircraft.

The "flat" attitude just happened to be the attitude at the time of impact with the ground. Prior to that, the body would have been tumbling.

[Flying Binghi]

Seems to be a few versions about. There will be a preliminary report in 30 days that will likely have some factual answers to what's been covered in this thread.





.

[rutan around]

Unsecured drum accident was a long time ago and I'm fairly sure it was in the states. Guy was only going a couple of farms away , didn't have the co-pilot seat in and didn't worry about tying the drum for a short trip. It appears that on descent the drum slid forward against the starboard control column which steepened the descent...... try pushing a full 205 litre drum uphill with one arm.

You don't know what you're talking about.Yair I've only ever seen a picture of a C210. I'm sure I'll get lucky and learn from your vast wisdom and experience.

I'll read with great interest your explanation of how the cabin came to be 600mm high if the fuselage hit belly first without the wings weight there to crush it.

No one has said whether the aircraft impacted upside down or right way up or where or how the wings separated from the rest of the aircraft. Typically in over speed wing separations in C210s the wing breaks off at the intersection of the flap and aileron in the DOWNWARD mode. Perhaps our resident expert on coffin causing catastrophes will explain why this is so.

[StickWithTheTruth]

I'll read with great interest your explanation of how the cabin came to be 600mm high if the fuselage hit belly first without the wings weight there to crush it.


In the same way that it happened in this situation:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/cessna-210-loses-wing-mid-air.548488/

[RatsoreA]

This won't be the first time a 210 has flown in one end of some bad Wx and come out the other side without a wing or two...

VH-WBZ
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-160.aspx

I am by no means saying this is the case in this situation, but looking at the rain on the ground and the BoM information at the time, it certainly doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility or probability. Regardless of how, still a tough outcome for all concerned...

[Bend alot]

If both wings separated from the aircraft in flight - we have a big problem.

Other than corrosion (pre SID's) the only other 210 maybe wing break up in flight was one in Africa either Namibia or Botswana from memory.

In my opinion I would take a 210 wing over a 206 wing in bad weather, flown within the POH limits or as close as possible given the conditions.

I wont post the pix the other poster wanted to see here, but after a few posts I think I can PM you a link.

[PLovett]

Body bag or coffin; I don't think either would haver been involved in bringing down this aircraft. I have flown both and they are easy to secure so that they don't move and Air Frontier has had enough experience in transporting deceased to ensure it was done properly.

What is not clear is whether there were two persons and the deceased on board or only the pilot and deceased. I suspect the latter as it would be very difficult to get a coffin into a C210 and keep the R/H front seat.

Should weather be the culprit in this crash then the flight routing should be looked at. I found during my time in the top end that the afternoon cells liked to play out along the points of land and that by going offshore you could more easily get around them. However, there can be a real danger in getting under the cloud shelf of an approaching cell. The turbulence can be mind-boggling even though you are not in cloud and can be a trap for young players.

Whatever the cause, I hope the ATSB does a proper investigation as there will be lessons to be learnt for the other young aviators struggling to gain hours who are the likely candidates for this sort of charter. My condolences to the family of the pilot who will now be struggling to understand how their son could come to such a sudden death.

[StickWithTheTruth]

The papers are quoting two pilots on board.

Wasn't there a 210 breakup possibly on the NSW coast years back somewhere near Merimbula?

[Checklist Charlie]

somewhere near MerimbulaI seem to recall a 210P nr Mt Sandon, inland from Port Macquarrie.

CC

[rutan around]

It is impossible to determine probable cause until all available information is collected.

In the meantime pilots who work in the north in the wet season should be very wary of entering cloud when imbedded thunder storms are forecast unless you have lots of good gear that can see how active the cloud ahead is. You should NEVER go near, or worse under the anvil of a developed thunder head. You need to be several miles clear. If an ATC direction is heading you into danger TELL them. They know it's not always clear skies and I've always found them very good at finding you a safer route.

If you're in a C210 and suddenly find yourself in virtually uncontrollable turbulence immediately put the gear down. Don't worry about the gear extension speed. It's only there to protect the gear doors. Better to lose the doors than the whole plane. DON'T use flap. The wing is stronger with them up.

The drag of the gear makes it harder for the aircraft to do sudden excursions beyond VNE. C210s have a lot of washout in their wings which gives them benign stalling characteristics but at high speed the wing tips have a negative angle of attack. As the aircraft goes beyond VNE more of the outer end of the wing has a negative angle of attack thus putting a large downwards force on on that outer portion. Too much speed or a combination of high speed and a sudden up aileron control input can take the download beyond the wings design envelope and it snaps off downwards (not up as is often thought) at the point where the flap and aileron meet. This is why it is so important to keep the speed under control as much as is possible in the virtually,if not completely uncontrollable conditions storms can dish up.

[The Wawa Zone]

And when you get to the stage that Rutan is talking about, all that you are doing is trying to keep the wings level and the speed around Va, which means correcting the rolls before they get to 45 deg and setting pitch/power at whatever you know gives you a climb at Va. All that is summed up in one phrase 'protect the AH' because if that topples due to big rolls or pitches then you are history - with the amount of water flowing into the pitot system and turbulent air movement overwhelming the alternate static system, and needle/ball momentum preventing accurate indications anyway, your chances of flying partial panel are zero, the AH is all you have, and heading is a distant memory. :)
Anyway, lets wait for the report.

[zlin77]

Former X-15 Pilot Scott Crossfield passed away in 2006 in a C210A, possible in-flight breakup.

[rutan around]

The C210A and and all C210s before the C210G have struts. When the 210s became strutless and there were a number of accidents where a wing was lost Hangar Rat engineers without ever leaving the bar quickly came up with the conclusion that strutless C210 wings were not as strong as the older ones with struts.

Real Engineers after carefully collating ALL the information discovered that actually the strutless wings are stronger than the C210 wings with struts.

The problem turned out to be that the strutless models are cleaner with respect to drag and when things start to go pear shaped less time elapsed before the aircraft was beyond VNE.

This meant the pilot had less time to sort out whatever was going on in the cockpit before disaster struck.

A lot of attention was given to higher proficiency in instrument flying as well as recommending dumping the gear before thing got out of hand.

The number of accidents decreased but it seems that some of the old knowledge is not being passed on to the next generation of pilots.

[compressor stall]

Wise words Rutan. The myth was probably perpetuated when people see the size of the bolts holding the wings on.

The C210 is not a docile beast. I remember after 50 hours on type thinking I was flying it well. Then after 500 hours on type realising how rough I was at 50. It's not hard to pole around the sky, but it's not easy to nail your desired airspeed to the knot. Which is probably why some operators demand more than bare CPL / 200 hours before flying a C210. On the surface it's an overgrown 172, but comes with some gotchas. (No inference here intended wrt the experience/ability of the pilot in this accident).


By a tragic coincidence (if media reports are true) the crash in Albany same on the same day is also being reported in ABC as a C210 and its wreckage is spread over several hectares.

In my my time belting around the NT and Arnhem Land in a 210, I usually stayed low late in the day in the buildup. Except for the escarpment there's not much to hit and except in really monsoonal trough times, the clouds are not normally on the ground. If they are, then you don't want to be anywhere near it anyway down low or up high.

Don't get suckered into the "Territory VFR" normalisation of deviance. A subject for another thread....

[Pilotette]

Wise words Rutan Around. That sort of knowledge is unlikely to be passed on in detail these days.

StickWithTheTruth, the C210 accident from Merimbula you may be thinking of was due to entering icing conditions over the ranges enroute to Albury.
The C210 inflight breakup that you are probabaly thinking of was N of Roma in VH-WBZ. Reading the report and findings of the wreckage is interesting in the fact that the wreckage including departed wing sections were all located within a 350m area and the fuselage was relatively level on impact although slightly nose down with a right roll.

PLovett, it's definitely been confirmed that there were 2 pilots onboard. No Cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/air-frontier-suspends-all-flights-after-plane-crash-in-darwin-rural-area/news-story/74e14366ccf8f8d8c4333cf5ef94466c)

The question that has been raised in investigations many times before raises its ugly head again. Are 2 pilots better than 1 when assessing adverse weather?

Compressor Stall, you mention staying low in the afternoon during the buildup due cloud level etc, this is what I have always done too. You're also generally unlikely to outclimb the bumps at this time of year anyway.
Interesting to note that the LiveATC recordings reveals that VH-HWY received clearance to climb to 9500' and eventually got clearance to deviate up to 20nm right of route. It's unclear but unlikely that they managed to reach 9500' before it went pearshaped but also disturbing that there was no mayday transmitted, whatever happened must have happened quickly.

[RifRaf3]

Two other factors may have played a part here if the wings departed in flight.

Rolling G reduces structural G limits usually by around 25% and the C210 has low, normal G limits. Remembering not to apply aileron whilst pulling G is much harder than it sounds in the confusion of a thunderstorm and the ground looming up.

Second, in many wing failures during unusual attitude recovery caused by a microburst related to a Cb, hitting a sudden windshear whilst G or rolling G is applied dramatically increases the odds of wing failure. Sudden windshear is common around Cbs.

Also, the negative G limits are very low for this type and in a Cb could be easily exceeded.

The RAAF to my knowledge has lost at least six aircraft (Winjeels. Macchis and Sabres) when these unusual combinations have occurred. Even with a lot of training, it's a difficult situation to survive.

Staying away from Cbs has always been the first priority. As pointed out earlier, even Scott Crossfield could not handle it.

[rutan around]

Compressor Stall

In my my time belting around the NT and Arnhem Land in a 210, I usually stayed low late in the day in the buildup. Except for the escarpment there's not much to hit and except in really monsoonal trough times, the clouds are not normally on the ground. If they are, then you don't want to be anywhere near it anyway down low or up high.Was it you that stole my Northern Territory SOP manual?:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[The Wawa Zone]

Airspeed is not too difficult to control in a C210 with basic attitude flying. The references to people exceeding Vne are likely to have occurred when they got the nose down attempting to descend out of cloud, or attempting to proritise and maintain altitude, rather than prioritise Va. You need Va to be able to get roll angles back to zero asap because 60 deg + will happen (too) rapidly.
Descending per se to escape also potentially puts them at LSALT but still IMC with little ability to control altitude in turbulence and also exposes them to being caught there inside a rain core which can drag its surrounding air mass down with it at > -1000 fpm.
A constant power setting / constant attitude to maintain Va, and accepting loss of control over altitude is a lot safer, since the big black cloud's performance inputs in either direction are going to happen a lot faster than yours.

[Capt Fathom]

And this one from 1976 (https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/41824/197600023.pdf) in fine weather. :(

[compressor stall]

That report, Capt Fathom, should be pinned to every C210 operator's lunchroom wall.

You can have all the SMS touchy feely group hug TEM you like, but a blunt factual report like that hits a pilot right between the eyes.

[Centaurus]

The RAAF to my knowledge has lost at least six aircraft (Winjeels. Macchis and Sabres) when these unusual combinations have occurred

I don't recall any of these accidents although I instructed on Wirraways and Winjeels. However I do recall a Wirraway crash at the Werribee bombing range circa 1957. The pilot was Flight Sergeant Ted Dillon who was practicing solo dive-bombing in the Wirraway. All RAAF pilots were aware of the dangers of rolling "G" as we were briefed on that early in our flying training.

The briefing for dive-bombing at the time was once the bomb was dropped from a 45 degree angle of dive the pilot should pull out of the dive wings level and climb straight ahead to about 1000 feet before levelling out and flying a left circuit to position for another dive. In his accident the pilot dropped his bomb as briefed then made a strong pull out and at the same time banked the aircraft sharply to rejoin the pattern.

One wing departed the aircraft and the Wirraway crashed killing the pilot. The Court of Inquiry revealed a possible defect in that wing which would have weakened the attachment. It was felt that combined with the rolling "G" the defect caused the wing to break at a lower "G". I recall vaguely the Wirraway had very strong wings able to withstand +8G but am not certain if that was true.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Funny enough there's at least one pilot by the name of Kaddatz in the Australian aviation industry still :ooh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

And this one from 1976 (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24622/197600023.pdf) in fine weather. :(

I remember this accident well. I had some C210 experience at the time - and a lot more after.

Its always seemed to me that if the C210 is as vunerable as this report suggests there would be more similar clear air 210 wing failures - which doesn't seem to be the case.

I think there is more to it than this report indicates.

Dr :8

[Global Aviator]

The final result will be interesting...

The Territory an unforgiving place for both new and old. Remember the Aerostar that had a wing separate in flight down near Port Keats, similar place to where a 210 also came to grief in a thunderie. Not to mention the lucky twisted conquest....

Experience can’t be bought, it’s a tough world out there.

Those of us that cut our teeth way back when appreciate every accident and feel for this young fella, every accident hits home. We all know of our close calls.

Now what is even most interesting is the aircraft flying around now are pretty much the same that we’re fkying around then, oh but plus 10-20,000 hours!

Rest In Peace young fella.

[pithblot]

Anyone have details about the Aerostar accident Global Aviator refers to? The "lucky twisted conquest".......would be KUZ (http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/423279-request-details-cessna-conquest-storm-encounter-severe-damage-after-u-recov.html?highlight=VH-kuz%A0)

[gassed budgie]

Anyone have details about the Aerostar accident Global Aviator refers to?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2000/aair/aair200003949/

[Bend alot]

While there have been many C210 crashes in the Territory and many weather related aircraft crashes and incidents, I think bringing up the Aerostar accident is a bit of a low blow on this thread.

Pretty sure that Aerostar was a LAME's father and many are of the opinion it was a medical issue but that could not be confirmed or denied.

[Connedrod]

Told today that the wings failed approximately 1 meter each side from the wing root. If this is the case ill let you draw your on conclusions to why they failure in this area.

[Connedrod]

There really is not any problems with 210 wings if flown correctly. As with most failures is the fact you dont know what the guy before you done or the guy 5 weeks earlier or 2 hyears earlier that sets the plan in motion.

[edsbar]

The Albury 210 was VH-IOR, a 210R http://https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1998/aair/aair199801415/

[Centaurus]

You have to ask in these type of circumstances where airframe failure has occurred, maybe over-controlling in turbulence leads to airframe disruption.
I recall two Aero Commander fatal accidents where this may have the cause. One was north of Melbourne where severe turbulence was forecast below 10,000 ft. The other was in Tasmania. Investigations revealed these aircraft broke apart in flight. But whether pilot input was involved could not be determined.

[Global Aviator]

Bend a lot - no low blow intended, just pointing out past incident, yes was very sad but take the emotion out. There are many factors in each incident.

The Territory a tough place to fly, I’d fly with any pilot that cut their teeth - 210, Baron, 402, airlines or regionals, great experience. Unfortunately it has also claimed many a life along the way.

I can think of many incidents but all of them would rip into the heart of someone effected so no point. However we all do learn from the past and plenty of newbies will be reading this thread and if it saves just one....

As for tools now available, yes use anything available as CS says much better than the ADF... Ahh the ole days pre GPS and the Mach 1 eyeball.

As I said at the start of this reply offending anyone was the last intent.

[Delta kilo]

Bend a lot - no low blow intended, just pointing out past incident, yes was very sad but take the emotion out. There are many factors in each incident.

The Territory a tough place to fly, I’d fly with any pilot that cut their teeth - 210, Baron, 402, airlines or regionals, great experience. Unfortunately it has also claimed many a life along the way.

I can think of many incidents but all of them would rip into the heart of someone effected so no point. However we all do learn from the past and plenty of newbies will be reading this thread and if it saves just one....

As for tools now available, yes use anything available as CS says much better than the ADF... Ahh the ole days pre GPS and the Mach 1 eyeball.

As I said at the start of this reply offending anyone was the last intent.

That’s a bloody fast eyeball, Global.
Mark my words.........

[Global Aviator]

Yes true a very fast eyeball, better than the mark I eyeball I believe..........

Thanks for the private message bendy, however I cannot send you a PM on here as it says you've chosen not to receive?

Bloody bad week for Aussie GA as has been said in other posts.

[Bend alot]

[QUOTE=Global Aviator;9941270]

Thanks for the private message bendy, however I cannot send you a PM on here as it says you've chosen not to receive?

QUOTE]



Don't think I chose that, also don't see any option to change that - might be a probation thing?

[Octane]

"Weather definitely seems to be relevant. LiveATC recording has him requesting initally 5 miles left and right, of which only 5nm right was granted due to restricted airspace. The approach controller later gave him 10nm right, and at some point offered "alternative routing", so the aircraft was definitely trying to avoid something"

Was discussing this sad event with my brother. He is now a B777 pilot but learnt his trade flying 210's, Baron's etc in NT for years. One comment he made was that if confronted with a hairy weather situation he would not ASK for an ATC clearance but TELL ATC what he had to do as appropriate for the conditions he was facing and let them sort things out from there. Perhaps this is something a relatively low time pilot would not consider?

RIP :(

[megan]

Octane, your brother has a very valid point, the term "controller" unfortunately might imply to the young that s/he on the ground giving "orders" (controlling) is the "boss". You do what you have to do to keep out of harms way, even though it may take reams of paperwork later.

Old saw "Am I up here because you're down there, or are you down there because I'm up here". Simple answer.

[josephfeatherweight]

Agree with the comments above and in my experience ATC are only too willing to help in such a situation.

[Corvallis]

Last wet season around January I was flying a single engine inbound to Darwin and due to storms had to stay at 9500 till almost overhead Darwin and then descend. They wanted me to track differently but I told them that I cannot due weather and this is the only track and alt I can follow. They let me do it but after landing they talked to me and told me I should not have done so because ifr traffic had to be put on hold and they told casa , who later had a word with me and said I should have done something else etc. My only option that day was to descend below the weather 75 miles out and should have but chose to get a bit closer to Darwin and find some wholes but took me all the way to Darwin to find a descent one.

[josephfeatherweight]

Disappointing that that was the outcome for you from a reasonable request to ATC...

[Wiggley]

I think something that isn't really taught to students these days is the difference between REQUEST and REQUIRE.

The amount of times I've been given a heading that would have turned me straight into some nasty weather, beit VFR or IFR, is amazing. But one also has to remember that ATC often just rely on the delayed BOM weather radar, so their SA is also not complete so it's not them doing it on purpose either.

[Global Aviator]

No matter where in the world I assume ATC have all the bells and whistles available, that includes weather radar displays. It always amazes me when getting vectors that lead straight into a CB! Then on the other hand you can tell when controllers are using it as the vectors are nothing short of brilliant. I have experienced both scenarios in many parts of the world.

I must say many moons ago Darwin ATC superb in suggested headings to avoid the scary stuff!

Yes as has been pointed out, require xxx, if that does' work - PAN PAN!

[airwolf117]

Last wet season around January I was flying a single engine inbound to Darwin and due to storms had to stay at 9500 till almost overhead Darwin and then descend. They wanted me to track differently but I told them that I cannot due weather and this is the only track and alt I can follow. They let me do it but after landing they talked to me and told me I should not have done so because ifr traffic had to be put on hold and they told casa , who later had a word with me and said I should have done something else etc. My only option that day was to descend below the weather 75 miles out and should have but chose to get a bit closer to Darwin and find some wholes but took me all the way to Darwin to find a descent one.

Saying I was taught for different reasons, but still applies:

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

[pilotchute]

I always find it a bit rough when ATC/CASA give you a talking too when you didn't break any rules. Sure you could have scud run for 75 miles but you didn't know that at the time. I prefer to be vfr on top any day.

[LeadSled]

I always find it a bit rough when ATC/CASA give you a talking too when you didn't break any rules

But, pilotchute, this is Australia, after all. About the only right a pilot in command has, is to be intimidated by the bureaucracy, and the right to take the blame when it all turns to custard. Have you seen the draft CASR Part 91?? Where the forgoing is codified.

This goes double if the situation leads to any public or political embarrassment of said bureaucracy. Think Norfolk Island, just for one.

After all, Oh!! Shock!! Horror!! an IFR aeroplane was held up so that another aeroplane could operate safely --- can't have that nonsense, after all, the IFR generates revenue, got to get your priorities right. And, of course, unlike the US ATC service, here the biggest revenue generators get priority.

And then, notwithstanding the fact that you have not breached any regulations, you will be hounded out of the Australian industry, the "word will be dropped" to potential employers, potential jobs will not materialise.

Then you will head of overseas, and in the normal course of events, if you play your cards right, you will have a HCRPT command in 8-10 years, maybe a lot less, and for the rest of your career, pay a lot less tax than in Australia, on an equal or (often much) higher income.

With a very long memory, and a long time in the industry, I can quote all too many examples.

Finally, doesn't matter how big your aeroplane, or how you do it, stay well away from TS/TCu.

"Dead On Schedule" just ain't worth it. The accident record has plenty of examples of why!!

Tootle pip!!

[Connedrod]

Heard today tbe aircraft went to approx 9000feet quickly and decent was even quicker.

[rutan around]

Has it been determined yet whether the wings came off prior to impact or after impact?

[Connedrod]

Has it been determined yet whether the wings came off prior to impact or after impact?

Aircraft broke apart in flight. Wings broke off approx 3 feet from the wing route. At this area is where the wing attach to centre section doublers etc stop an then goes to the wing spar section alone to the wing tip.

[Bend alot]

Aircraft broke apart in flight. Wings broke off approx 3 feet from the wing route. At this area is where the wing attach to centre section doublers etc stop an then goes to the wing spar section alone to the wing tip.



Bold statement.

They may or may not have hit something first!

They MAY have "broken off" 3 feet above the ground!


I think weather is a relevant question.

[Eric Janson]

Disappointing that that was the outcome for you from a reasonable request to ATC...

ICAO Annex 2 gives an aircraft Captain the right to take whatever action is necessary for safety.

Don't be afraid to do so.

I had to do this in Darwin about 2 years ago.

- ATC flied a report.
- I filed an ASR through the company.
- Darwin ATC changed their procedures.

Never heard another word.

[Corvallis]

Has it been confirmed that wing separated. Where did u guys find this info?

[StickWithTheTruth]

The news photos of the wings hanging in the trees some hundreds? of metres away from the fuselage tell the story!

[Bend alot]

The news photos of the wings hanging in the trees some hundreds? of metres away from the fuselage tell the story!



NT NEWS are known for their stories - My info say one, one side of the road and the other very close to the fuse.

That area also would have some of the highest trees in that "Darwin" area.

I have heard from the area and some involed - the wing/s did not fall off.


That separation point around 2-3 foot out/bd from the cabin has a extra bit that extends about another 18 inches (about 3/4 inch square).

My bet is that is bent aft, not up ( but a chance down).

[Connedrod]

Has it been confirmed that wing separated. Where did u guys find this info?


The operator.

[Bend alot]

The operator generally keeps his cards very close to his chest in any incident/accident. He is also a very capable engineer and if he was at the site will have a pretty good idea of what happened and at what stage, it will be interesting to speak to him in a few years about it.

[Corvallis]

The operator is Amish. Has 9 kids all homeschooled.

[Bend alot]

Home schooled yes but 9, I know its a few.

I don't know the extent of structural rebuilds he has taught them, but I know Amish has completely rebuild a few wings in his time.

[Capt Fathom]

The operator is Amish. Has 9 kids all homeschooled
What the F has that got to do with a C210 coming down?

[Corvallis]

Yes that is true.

[Desert Flower]

The operator is Amish. Has 9 kids all homeschooled.

Amish? I didn't know there were any Amish in Australia. And given that one would be an aircraft operator/engineer is even stranger - as their beliefs forbid them from flying.

DF.

[Bend alot]

What the F has that got to do with a C210 coming down?



It is a Areostar thing! is my guess.

[Connedrod]

The operator generally keeps his cards very close to his chest in any incident/accident. He is also a very capable engineer and if he was at the site will have a pretty good idea of what happened and at what stage, it will be interesting to speak to him in a few years about it.

Really.
Ive known hin for 40 years.

[Biggles78]

I was talking to a young aspiring soon to be CPL and told him one of the most powerful words that he can use with ATC is UNABLE. He was surprised by the word. Do students not get taught Unable, Require or Request any more and when or how to use them?


I am in no way insinuating that the above words would have related in any way with this tragedy.

[Bend alot]

Really.
Ive known hin for 40 years.



Yep since EAC on the old side when he was Chief Gingerbeer. But his rebuilds were before that.

[Corvallis]

When does the atsb initial report come out. I thought usually 30 days but nothing yet.

[Bend alot]

Unless a interested party has an objection to part of the draft report - that can create a delay.

[threegreensconfirmed]

Now states "Inflight Break Up" in the title of the report. But no further details.

[Bend alot]

And the cause of the "inflight break up" will be very interesting.

Will they - if proven change the tile to inflight break up caused by design and AFM limitations exceeded?

[DynamicStall]

Investigation: AO-2017-102 - In-flight breakup involving Cessna 210, VH-HWY, 22 km E of Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, on 23 October 2017 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-102/)

[Left 270]

A lot further between the wings and fuselage than previously reported, not a nice read.

[Enroute77]

Is it true that a lot of pilots have resigned from the operator?

[Left 270]

At the moment that’s true of EVERY operator.

[Duck Pilot]

At least we know what caused the accident, Nasty CB......

Lots of lessons to be learnt from this accident for all, including me who has been stuck twice by lightning in a bigger aeroplane.

Keep away from the CBs!!!

[Octane]

Hello Duck,

Could you tell us about the lightning strikes? I'm curious..

Thanks

[Duck Pilot]

Dash 8s, once in solid IMC when the WX radar gave no indication of CBs and the other was in VMC well away from the CB. First one resulted in a prop change and a hole in the cabin roof. Pretty common to have lightning come out of CBs in clear air up to 20 miles or further from the active cell - they don’t teach this stuff in flying schools, it’s learnt from experience....

[zzuf]

Seems that ATSB folk still subscribe to the old Va myth.
Bad form to plot Va against ground speed when they have no idea of the real CAS.

[Corvallis]

Heard a rumour that the cp is leaving next week. I wonder if they have a replacement

[Ixixly]

I don't know about others here, but I find myself increasingly worried by the Aircraft we fly in GA. I'm lucky to be part of an organisation that has exceptional Maintenance but the fact is that we're still flying 30-40 year old aircraft, looking beyond just the physical age it worries me to think over the 15-20,000+ hrs some of these Aircraft have flown, just what sort of abuse they've taken at the hands of Pilots who weren't taught correctly, didn't care, just got into a bad situation and then even the normal wear/tear/fatigue that comes with such advanced age and it honestly scares me these days.

To all the GA Pilots out there reading this, I urge you to be extra cautious, remember that the Speeds and Figures you've got in your POH/AFM were from Brand new aircraft many decades ago, give it some fudge factor when appropriate and be far less inclined to take them into weather and situations that others once thought nothing of a long time ago. Maintenance organisations do the best they can but are often under the pump themselves just like we are and there's only so much that can be inspected.

Be careful out there boys and girls, none of us are paid enough money to give our lives, nor is the act of transporting anything or anyone generally worth it either (Outside emergency services, RFDS and the likes from time to time)

[Flying Binghi]

Sound words Ixixly.

I can't see any airframe time mentioned in the preliminary report though the fact that both wings failed suggest to me that the issue were not related to hours on the airframe or maintenance. Likely WX related.





.

[Ixixly]

Agreed Flying Binghi, should have been clearer that I don't believe that Airframe Fatigue played a pivotal part in this incident, from the report it certainly seems like it just ended up Over-stressed in a CB.

But the age and hours wouldn't have helped either in my mind and anytime I'm flying in IMC these days it's a thought that crosses my mind or whenever someone tells me a story of that horrendous storm they went through in the same Aircraft. It's enough to remind me that without a WX Radar you just can't really know what's sitting inside those clouds once you're in and as others have pointed out, even with one you can't be 100% and I don't want to be the one that finds out about that crack that's been forming for the last 10 years in an unseen corner of a wing.

[Global Aviator]

The aircraft were old 20 years ago..... imagine getting in a Holden HQ uber? Sorry a Ford Fairlane 1983, hang on no chance...

There are new aircraft out there, but not at a cost that Aussie GA can afford, but then again what is a C210 replacement?

Good luck to those venturing north to gain hours, respect is due your way, it’s not given but it’s due. Yes you would take a RHS in a shinny Jet tomorrow if you could but you don’t have that opportunity so you have to build experience. Fly for dodgy Operators, fly for great Operators, all experience.

This young fella was having a crack, we will never know why you got into the position you were, but as has been said fark it musta been tough. You had the balls you gave aviation a crack. Now your up there with the many others that have walked this line not only in the NT but around the globe.

As my name says we are Global Aviators.

Remember that and always help each other!!!

[The Green Goblin]

Gives me the chills seeing those pics.

The 210 is a wonderful bird, but you had to be aware of its limitations. If you ever get yourself in a bind, slow down and extend the gear. She’s a 172 at that point.

[Duck Pilot]

Maybe CASA should take the approach that the Indonesian DGAC have done, ban all commercial passengers operations in old aircraft. Not sure exactly what their regulations state, however it’s modernised their commercial fleets which has had a huge positive impact on improving aviation safety.

Are we still going to be flying around in 60 plus year old aircraft in 20 years time? The travelling public deserve better.

[The Wawa Zone]

That radar track and R/T transcript is very interesting, but could have been a lot better if combined with the BOM Wx radar images of the same time interval.
Whatever weather the two pilots actually saw on departure from DN, it wouldn't have looked any better by trying to climb over it. NT and tropic weather is mostly cumuliform which means you can fly around it or around the rain falling out of it, and in fact outmaneuver it since you are 10 times faster than the weather in a C210. Visibility is a lot better looking under it along track than trying to climb to 10,000' then trying to weave along between the +15,000' tops that blind your actual view along track.
That is really the basics of flying in the Top End during Build Up or the Wet, and I can't understand how these guys were not trained in that or put it into practise. I've flown this exact same planned route a lot (a lot), and never once would I have considered tracking NW to enable a climb of any kind, if all I had to do was head east at 1500' and avoid the black scungey stuff.

[Connedrod]

Lets be honest here. The aircraft didnt fail. The pilots failed the aircraft.
Even if this aircraft was brand new and the aircraft faced with what happened in this accident the out come would be the same.

[Bend alot]

Agree, it seems to be flown beyond known flight limits that will result in personal injury or death if exceeded, with or without being on medication or having/or not having struts of new or old age irrespective of hours flown on such struts.

[Duck Pilot]

If it had a WX radar or some kind of storm scope in it and the pilots knew how to use it, would have this accident occurred?

Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.

Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).

The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone.

[Bend alot]

Duck Pilot;9992984]If it had a WX radar or some kind of storm scope in it and the pilots knew how to use it, would have this accident occurred?


**** Can anyone name a 210 with charter Ops in the NT with radar? or a storm scope of any merit in this or most cases that help in a case such as this?

Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.

****** Christ - I need to void inadvertently flying with you ever!

Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).

The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone

****** and careful from whom you take advise and navigate via Hecter.

[troppo]

Duck Pilot;9992984]If it had a WX radar or some kind of storm scope in it and the pilots knew how to use it, would have this accident occurred?


**** Can anyone name a 210 with charter Ops in the NT with radar? or a storm scope of any merit in this

MK1 Eyeball.

[framer]

The pilot in the left seat was the pilot in command, under supervision of the right seat pilot and the flight was operating under the visual flight rules
Funny statement. Who was the actual, legal, PinC?

[Bend alot]

I am honestly to see a C210 with a weather radar in my close life of around 35 years of them - about 4-6 had a storm scope that most were u/s and the 1 or 2 that apparently worked were of no real use in the Australian Top End environment that they were never designed to be used.

[Global Aviator]

It’s a heart ripping reality of learning to fly in harsh places. Make it and the experience you gain = priceless. Most do make it but some do come unstuck. Don’t blame these fellas as we don’t know the full story, actually never will. I’d love to say no one ever flies into bad weather deliberately but I know with 230 hours I’m lucky to still be here, and I mean LUCKY!

I’m not quoting from above but yes we do find ourselves in interesting weather no matter what the aircraft has. Be it a 320, Global XRS, Falcon, etc, I’ve seen weather out the window not painting and the other way around. One has to use everything available, window, WXR, ATC, etc..... Wx forecast vs not, blah...

Now to the fellas belting around in GA now, look forward to the day your flying an airliner in the RHS and ask the Capt about his GA days. When a blank look and the answer is i didn’t come from GA I was a cadet, say yes I would have if I could have, whilst at the same time know that nothing can replace the experience fun repeat the experience that GA brings, and I’m not just talking the flying!

I’m not disrespecting the cadet route and I would never suggest disrespecting the Capt, just saying that everyday is different.

[framer]

My experience is that nothing in the CPL syllabus, and nothing in the industry training once you get a job prepares you adequately for flying in and around weather. I did some time in 210’s in the NT ( pre GPS) and to tell you the truth there was a fair bit of luck/ chance involved in getting through unscathed.
If I was in a position of influence in NT Aviation I would get a group of guys and girls together with varying experience and build a 3 hour course. I’d get of the more experienced jet Captains based there, a brand new CPL, an experienced twin piston pilot and a turbo prop Captain, and someone from ATC. Sit them all in a room for a day to brain storm all the issues that each of them see with NT weather and then build a ppt that can be presented ( for free ) on the first Saturday of every second month at the aero club. Newbies and experienced pilots alike could blow in, buy a beer and learn the basic does and don’ts While having a social time. I’d try to make it an element of the Darwin flying scene/culture.
That way an awareness of some options available ( “unable , pan pan turning left .....) would built into the flying scene. I’m sure most are across it all but it would catch those who aren’t and even experienced folk could learn something about CB’s, local patterns, stats.
Then I would print off and laminate ten NT accident reports and deliver them to each operator to keep in their Ops room.

[Duck Pilot]

What framer has suggested is a great solution, an awareness presentation/informal training about the WX and other challenges that exist in harsh operating environments such as the top end need to be shared in an open forum locally on a regular basis.

It’s easy for all of us to sit here and ramble on about our thoughts and experiences however it’s got to be more than that.

It can also be very difficult for operators to train and make pilots aware of these challenges when they initially hire new pilots, mainly due to time constraints and most operators will only give pilots the minimum training as per their OPS manual/CASA regs before they let them loose.

I live in Darwin and I’d be more than willing to give advice and help (mentoring) to anyone, not only about WX but also about anything related to flying, even job interview advice.

Best to private mail me if you want to contact me.

[The Wawa Zone]

Duck - unless you get an STC for a wing mounted radome and spend $80K, C210 Wx radar is out. A GA operator doing that ? :) :) Going IFR on single engine pax carrying bush ops is also impossible for various reasons and as someone said 'Mk1 eyeball'. The BOM Wx radar on the phone screen - yes use every trick you can to find the cleaner VFR tracks.
Also letting go of the controls - no. Instead nudge the aircraft into maintaining Va and wings level-ish, and keeping the AH / EADI gyro upright because if that falls over in big rolls and pitches it's game over - you won't be doing any partial panel because your pressure instruments will be mostly unreadable. You also cannot rely on the design's inherent hands-off stability because the pitch/rolls rates at which it recovers will be vastly exceeded by the rates at which new turbulence upsets/divergences hit the aircraft.
Cumuliform covers Cu, LCu, Cb, ie, a lump you can fly around as opposed to Stratiform layered cloud formations that may go on for 200Nm as on the East Coast (and be full of ice and hills).

Framer - good idea but it all needs to go into the Ops Manual Part C and be signed for and flown as part of route and strip training, otherwise it will finish up down behind the back of the fridge. The biggest lesson is to get people to fly at the height that gives them max visibility over or under the scunge, because that gives them the maximum information which is what they need for the next 20Nm. I'd suggest that the two guys in the accident aircraft tried punching into a big ugly white wall at 7000' with no information about what was in front of them.
The test for ATSB with this one is to recommend this sort of training and get political support for it to be required by CASA. CASA would not touch it otherwise because that would imply they were at fault for not requiring it before. I can think of a dozen Wx related commercial GA accidents where no changes were recommended.

[framer]

but it all needs to go into the Ops Manual Part C and be signed for and flown as part of route and strip training,
I don’t really agree with that.
CASA would not touch it otherwise because that would imply they were at fault for not requiring it before. I can think of a dozen Wx related commercial GA accidents where no changes were recommended Exactly.
What’s the biggest threat in the NT? It’s not terrain, it’s not short strips with gradients. It’s the tropical weather. What do young pilots cutting their teeth in Darwin like to do? Drink beer, fly and talk crap ( at least that’s what we did a fair while back). Duck Pilot might be able to combine some key points on staying alive with the drinking beer and talking crap elements and not only save a life or two but have some fun doing it.

[The Wawa Zone]

Framer, it's got to be incorporated in a formal way and Part C is that segment of the system that it best fits into, otherwise the information doesn't get imparted in any depth and also eventually drives out the gate to go elsewhere. An analogy would be that you don't do an endorsement by thinking or drinking about it.

[framer]

We may be talking about different things here wawa.
I’m not talking about official training, or an official response. I’m talking about a bunch of blokes doing something off their own bat in their own time. In an earlier post where I said “if I was a person of influence in Darwin Aviation” I didn’t mean a CASA rep, more like someone who has been there long enough to know a lot of people and was well respected.
Anyway, Kinda thinking out loud.
Have a good night

[Bend alot]

framer if you are a pilot that has been chugging around the Darwin top end for 10 years or more - you have my respect and certainly capable of a life saving chat with youngsters over a beer or two.

A thing that did happen at the Stuit, in Adrian's day at the bar.

[The Wawa Zone]

We need both formalised training in 'local conditions' and also the 'Stuit to reopen, it was just amazing how the owners cocked that up :(

[framer]

Nah not me Bend alot, I’d be the one seeking advice if I had to fly a piston up there now days. I did a couple of wet seasons then moved on. It was nearly twenty years ago.

[Runaway Gun]

It also concerns me that most of the pilots at my workplace do not understand exactly what Va is, or what it allows. Most of them cannot correctly tell me how to recover from a nose low Unusual Attitude (many of them tell me to 'pull through').

[Bend alot]

Friday night Stuit was a interview of sorts for the new residents looking for a flying job, many resume droppers also joined a Friday.

Ah they were very fun days.

[Flying Bear]

There is a C210 course run at the flying school based on Darwin Airport, and it does cover seasonal weather in the NT. As a director of that school, I can assure all that the course has been evolved in light of the recent accident. Not intended as any advertisement, but what Craig alludes to above is already being done, it just requires the junior pilots starting out in the region to tap into the resource. All with a Flight Review thrown in on the 210 (if MOS standard is met...).

Regarding free seminars - we recently convened one of those - inviting one of the Airnorth E170 skippers who has flown up here forever to discuss the local weather systems. He has a keen interest in the meteorology of this region and whilst the material he presented was very informal, it was awesome for the newbies to hear. Shame only a dozen or so turned up... The free GAF seminar we conducted the night before low level forecasts changed forever was well subscribed, though.

We certainly intend to do more of these things, but even after this “wake up call”, we still see resistance to learning because either the cost is too much (what price does one put on professional development?) or even better, apparently further training isn’t required because the MECIR / CPL gained on the east coast is awesome enough...

I also encourage those seeking a job to hang around our facility when they can as a pseudo-base from which they can approach the local operators (this is free!). They can talk all the crap they like with us and each other - maybe to learn something as well as to network. They can even drink beer at the right time of day! Funnily enough, this offer is very rarely taken advantage of, which makes me wonder if there is a paradigm shift in the young pilots today?

[Duck Pilot]

With regards to the Stuit, the rent that the DIA want may be prohibitive for a small business to operate there these days - although I may be totally incorrect. Anyone with the appropriate business approvals/licence could walk in today and be doing good business tomorrow, not only in alcohol sales but also selling meals and lots of coffees. It’s been well maintained since it’s closure and everything still works. The DIA still rents the facility out for private functions, not sure why they haven’t encouraged a business to set up permanently.

[The Wawa Zone]

Gun, give them the theory and if they understand it get them up and teach them to fly it. Come to think of it, questions about V-n diagrams would be good for initial interviews.

Framer, we are; change happens through legislation or market forces such as insurance premiums (or 'leadership', although in GA that is term is irrelevant). Your suggested informal approach happens all the time but illustrates my point - it partly fills the training gap that exists within the company between the induction checkout and the realities of line ops 100'sNm away in the bush. But getting pissed is fun, and there's babes.

Bear, the paradigm shift ? We're almost 1/5 of the way into the 21st century, and the modern 300 hour CPL wasn't trained by some hard old dog with 9000 hours on iced up DC3's, one sunk U-Boat, and 3 ex-wives, so they never got taught how to look for and pick up every dirty rat-cunning little trick to add to their bag of luck.
Your Wx courses sound good, but you need to convince the insurance companies and CASA to make them a requirement and the best way I suggest is via a beefed up and actually enforced CAR219, because the consequent flying program automatically captures the enroute Wx aspects. When I was a bosspella-pailote I rigorously taught and documented CAR219 route and strip training, and guess what - even our FOI didn't know what it was. I'd suggest that neither ATSB or CASA will even mention 219 and its underlying Act head of power (CAA28B-something) in relation to this prang, and if you try and push it you'll encounter 'the limits to what is practical'.

Duck, yes it would be a good business if the rent was negotiated to a practical number, since there are a lot more people working at YPDN than in the 90's.

[framer]

or 'leadership', although in GA that is term is irrelevant).
I dunno, I think Flying Bear demonstrated a fair bit of it with
Regarding free seminars - we recently convened one of those - inviting one of the Airnorth E170 skippers who has flown up here forever to discuss the local weather systems.
Anyway, best of luck up there. It’s an exciting place.

[RV6JOY]

ATSB have just released the preliminary report into the C210 breakup inflight at Albany WA, the same week as the NT C210 accident.
Check out the ATSB website.
pPrune won't allow me to post the URL.
It shows how important Va is. Very low on a C210 considering their cruise speed is about 50 knots quicker than their Va when lightly loaded.

[Duck Pilot]

Good quality training and mentoring is what the industry needs to be focusing on, particularly for GA.

[The Wawa Zone]

Framer, yes Flying Bear has but he sounds like he is an instructor of some sort so he would have done a course which would have taught a bit of how to at least act normal. We both know what the rest of GA (and above) is like.

Back to this accident, yes consider Va but also consider flying off the edge of the Vn diagram due wandering into Wx-related turbulence, which I suggest is the case here. I took the CAR219 solution further and looked up the CASA manuals on AOC certification (AOCM) and enforcement (Enforcement Manual EM and Surveillance Manual SM) to see to what level CASA expects AOC holders to currently conform to CAR219. The AOCM has a fleeting mention and the rest of the range of documents and instruments don't even mention it. Unlike the long-dead ASSP, the EM and SM don't hold anyone including CASA to any particular standard, hence no one including CASA can ever be criticised.
Therefore I'd suggest that nothing is going to change, CAR219 won't get mentioned in anything other than the NT Coroner's Report and then only if 'someone' pushes it. The closest we'll get to a CAR219 solution to this entrenched problem is the current default of an existing company pilot perhaps with no instructional experience, no multicrew experience and without any training plan, flying 'ICUS' with a new pilot on what is effectively reduced to a series of area familiarisation flights. That, despite Framer's esky and Bear's seminars, is why every few years someone will fall out of a big black cloud in bits.

[Gege_]

Coffins are carried in those aircraft all the time no problem.
The aircraft was believed to be operated beyond limit pilots presumably in cloud with no instrument ratings (couldn’t get away from it) plane ends up with nose pointing at ground, they pop out the bottom see a large mass of the Northern Territory rushing up to meet them, pull back, snap go the wings and some tail plane

Fuselage lands almost vertically and dreadful compressed, wings 900 meters from fuselage

[Cloudee]

ATSB report out.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-102/

[machtuk]

I just read that, so traagic☹
i only hope that future inexperienced pilots can learn something of this event. The NT is no place for any A/C (especially a C210) when TS conditions are like that, I even have my personel radar on high when operating in such environments avoiding them like the plague and that's in a high perf jet often at the high 40'sK ft!

[The Wawa Zone]

I just read that, so tragic☹ I only hope that future inexperienced pilots can learn something of this event. The NT is no place for any A/C (especially a C210) when TS conditions are like that,

Learning comes from accumulated corporate knowledge within the company's documented instructional material plus first hand experience flying around in/near the scungey stuff under experienced supervision (both lacking in this accident).
I used to teach what I called 'maximum information flying' ie. height and heading intended to feed your 360-degree swiveling head the most amount of information about where you should head next. That could be anywhere up to 90 degrees off track and anything between cloud base and 200'AGL, with the main requirements being to see and assess the furthest possible distance ahead and around plus maintaining an open escape route out the back door when it closed off around and in front. Your head doesn't stop moving.
The point is that you are going 10 times faster than the weather, and if you don't like it you can just bolt out the back door and it won't catch you. Lose the back door ..? That's when the problems start.