Dear Anna, Rupert...et al. Do you hear the approaching thunder...?

[Trafalgar]

I realise a similar article has been posted elsewhere, but for the purpose of focus on what is beginning to happen, both in the US and worldwide, this article represents but a taste of the reality our management is ignoring. They do so at their imminent peril...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-executive-order-lets-air-force-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots/ar-AAtNS99?li=AA5a8k

(and read further down the article regarding the commercial industry)

[Trafalgar]

I will draw you all to the comment further in the article: "military's pilot shortage crisis has been compounded by pilot shortages in the commercial airline industry, which offers AGGRESSIVE pay". Sounds just like ours, except in reverse.... A dumber management has never been witnessed.

[1200firm]

They don't give a s#@t. Bonuses locked in, and then they are gone.

[Air Profit]

Sadly you may have a point. However, they being 'gone' will be in addition to the soon to be hundreds of CX pilots also being 'gone'. My neighbour among them, who just accepted an airline job in Aus. Ten+ years here, and didn't want to work one more moment in an airline with no rules or stability or respect. Not to mention he's moving home to his house in Brisbane. How many other stories just like this will we be writing over the coming months?

[oriental flyer]

Lots I would imagine

[Captain Dart]

Unfortunately, I believe that they are still happy to see A and B scale pilots go. They are being replaced by the cheapies. And with the cheap package, bases would not save them much, so no need for those pesky First World labor laws. Just keep a token few bases open as a recruiting carrot.

I fly with lots of newly joined, experienced South Africans, happy to be out of Africa, sitting in a shiny wide body, with the prospect of a permanent HKID card down the track.

I fear that the approaching thunder is just my guts churning after a Headland Hotel meal.

[Trafalgar]

They are not happy to see them leaving in the exponentially increasing numbers now being registered. And just wait until they see the result of their “Time to Win” strategy (if they are foolish enough to push it ahead). How do you end up with no pilots: slowly, then suddenly. They will soon enough be panicked as to how they crew their aircraft. Probably right around the coming holidays....

[Zapp_Brannigan]

The same story happened in my previous airline.

They were very satisfied to see a few experienced and expensive pilots leave... until too many experienced and not so expensive (after all) pilots left.

By then it was too late. Not even a 30% raise would stop the flow. Only a 50% raise stopped the ones who hadn't left from looking for another job. Once your employees are in the process of finding a better job, there's not much you can do to stop them. You need to stop them before they apply elsewhere, possibly even before they think about applying elsewhere.

[Shep69]

Kung Pow !

[morningcoffee]

Theres no mass exodus. A bunch of legacy airlines who recruit once every 8-10 years are taking a dozen or so this month, maybe even this week, and somehow via Pprune that translates to 12 pilots leaving per week and wow 652 leaving this year.

That figure seems slightly in disagreement with the 2.5% (90 per year) the analysts, the AOA and the company agree with.

[Dead Serious]

Theres no mass exodus. A bunch of legacy airlines who recruit once every 8-10 years are taking a dozen or so this month, maybe even this week, and somehow via Pprune that translates to 12 pilots leaving per week and wow 652 leaving this year.

That figure seems slightly in disagreement with the 2.5% (90 per year) the analysts, the AOA and the company agree with.


Morning coffee,

Air Canada looking for 450 in 2018
Ryanair looking for 700 in 2018-19
Easyjet looking for 500 2018
Qantas recruiting 200 now
VietJet 400 now
BA 400 2018-19 ( upper age limit 49 )
Virgin Atlantic 150
Virgian Australia 80

US Airlines THOUSANDS by 2020
Dragonair 200 in 2018

[azhkman]

They don't give a s#@t. Bonuses locked in, and then they are gone.

Gone where? Given the track record, the only pathway I see for them is selling Coca-Cola beverages in another part of Swire. I cannot see how any airline would possibly hire ex-CX management, with the very small exception of some select staff that could present quantifiable proof of their value.

Well, maybe some state-run airlines. And EK, EY, QR, seem to have no basis in reality either. I guess there is an airline career after CX for non-flight staff.

[Icarus2001]

A bunch of legacy airlines who recruit once every 8-10 years are taking a dozen or so this month, maybe even this week,

Well you only need to look at Qantas and Virgin in Australia to see that they are recruiting quite heavily.

[Air Profit]

Morningcoffee. Don't you have your management meeting to attend this morning? Hurry along now.

[Shep69]

Theres no mass exodus. A bunch of legacy airlines who recruit once every 8-10 years are taking a dozen or so this month, maybe even this week, and somehow via Pprune that translates to 12 pilots leaving per week and wow 652 leaving this year.

That figure seems slightly in disagreement with the 2.5% (90 per year) the analysts, the AOA and the company agree with.
Ummmm yeah.

Many of my good friends are gone. Many more are most definitely on their heels. And even more on THOSE heels.

And there even well might be things tugging at my feet too.

I’ve never seen things like this. Ever. And there’s no way in hell any training pipeline — even if it were working and expanding normally — can keep up with it. And even that’s assuming one could find recruits to begin with on C scale with all that has been happening over the past few years and still playing out. So it appears the plan to hire folks who’ll live on a shoestring and never say no ain’t exactly playing out as planned. The not so funny part is that the management could have made peace with the TU — or even left things well enough alone and done nothing — and things would have played out much better than they have.

Are you the guy who makes up all those numbers in the charts and graphs that have been floating around lately ? Or are you the fuel guy ?

[Air Profit]

Brilliant! :D

[Air Profit]

And I ask everyone of my colleagues: what are YOU going to be doing this holiday season?

[quadspeed]

Morningcoffe is the only sober voice in here.

In typical style, B and A scalers are waiting for others to leave, knowing that those who stay will benefit from gains brought about by those leaving.

Which is why there will never be a mass exodus. Everybody standing around waiting for someone to do something while the house burns around them.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

<<And there even well might be things tugging at my feet too>>.



How will we cope ?

[Air Profit]

quadspeed. They are leaving. So what is your point?

[quadspeed]

quadspeed. They are leaving. So what is your point?

That they are not.

The critical mass is too old, too indebted, too proud and too senior to leave in protest.

A trickle or even a small stream can easily be managed. The day I see Savilles offering 150 DB apartments at discounted prices is they day it makes a difference.

Even a 10% attrition is a win / win for the company. Most CX pilots with anything to lose in this fight have come to whatever realisation you're referring too much, much too late.

[morningcoffee]

Well you only need to look at Qantas and Virgin in Australia to see that they are recruiting quite heavily.

Yep and not that long ago Qantas were offering extended leave without pay. Thats what you offer when you're not recruiting, that's pretty much the opposite. But I'd also like everyone else to leave so my conditions improve so yes, thousands are leaving, I've jumped a massive 7 numbers in seniority this month which proves it.

You all better go too.

[Dragon69]

Even a 10% attrition is a win / win for the company.

How do you figure?

[VR-HFX]

I think you will find this in a Harvard University Business School course in a few years.

Whilst corporate atrophy is not a new phenomenon, it is probably a first for a corporation that was basically hit in the arse with a rainbow and should still be counting the profits of that luck every day.

Hong Kong- perfect hub, great destination in itself and and all-around success story. Not to mention having the authorities in your pocket.

Why we will see this end very badly is simply that the bridge is manned by people who have no decision-making authority. At least that is their excuse because no one will stand up to Barnaby et al. Typical 19th Century feudalism meets the real world with all those still on the gravy train trying to reach Victoria Station before the derailment.

There is no way on God's Little Earth that management will be able to react in any meaningful way to the reality of the market.

We will just be left with a "Mayor of Hiroshima" moment.

[nike]

I cannot see how any airline would possibly hire ex-CX management

That’s actually a really good point.
None of this lot would ever get hired in an aviation company outside of Swire.

[Oval3Holer]

6% of US-based pilots have quit in the past 3 months... It's 6 months to command on an MD80 at Delta Air Lines

[Metro man]

Will Cathay Pacific face a pilot exodus to mainland airlines as it cuts salaries and benefits? | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2116444/will-cathay-pacific-see-pilot-exodus-mainland-airlines-it)


Mainland Chinese carriers are seeking to poach Cathay Pacific Airways pilots, capitalising on a cost-cutting drive by Hong Kong’s flagship airline to slash salaries and benefits.
Some 200 pilots from Cathay Pacific are considering their options with the likes of China Southern Airlines and Hainan Airlines after registering with a recruitment agency, according to a source.
This has contributed to cockpit recruiters for China’s major state-owned and private airlines making greater strides to woo Hong Kong-based pilots feeling disenchanted over salary cuts and wanting a better lifestyle.
Cathay Pacific to slash housing packages for pilots as part of ongoing cost-cutting drive

In an attempt to plug losses of HK$2.05 billion in the first half of the year, Cathay Pacific embarked on a three-year transformation plan to rein in costs which included 600 job cuts so far.
Last month, pilots at Cathay Pacific were told that they would face a salary freeze, pension changes and substantial cuts to housing allowances worth HK$1.2 million.
We have seen a spike in interest in recent weeks, numbering in the hundredsDEBORAH WHITE, RECRUITER
“Until last month, very few Cathay Pacific pilots have inquired, or made applications to Chinese airlines. However we have seen a spike in interest in recent weeks, numbering in the hundreds,” said Deborah White, marketing manager for Longreach Aviation, which recruits pilots for Chinese airlines. It will host recruitment briefings for Hong Kong pilots at the end of the month.
Longreach Aviation said two of its clients – China Southern and Hainan – would need an estimated 100 foreign captains to meet demand for expansion each year until 2020.
At least 200 experienced pilots from Cathay Pacific, out of a total of 250 applicants, have expressed interest in flying for mainland Chinese airlines.
Of Cathay Pacific’s 3,265 pilots, the average turnover rate remained “around” 2.5 per cent this year for resignations and retirements, a figure the company said was “manageable.”
However, the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association claimed its figures were double the official rate.
“Without doubt, the impending cancellation of the housing allowance agreement at Cathay Pacific will force pilots to look elsewhere,” union general secretary Chris Beebe said.
Pilot pay and pensions targeted as Cathay Pacific looks to slash HK$1 billion in costs

An exodus of pilots, however, could be beneficial for the carrier as it tries to reduce costs.
The company said it accepted that its brand, quality and reputation for safety made its pilots some of the “most sought after” among rival airlines.
“Our resignation rate and early retirement rate … are both a very manageable and in the appropriate range as we continue with our plans to recruit, train, and retain the appropriate mix of skilled pilots to meet our growth plans,” a Cathay Pacific spokeswoman said.
Our resignation rate and early retirement rate … are both a very manageableCATHAY PACIFIC SPOKESWOMAN
The airline said it was focused on implementing big changes to pilot pay as its cost structure was “out of line” with that of its competitors.
Hong Kong cockpit crew are in demand because their locally registered pilot licences come from schools with good reputations and they are familiar with flying in the region, according to Longreach Aviation.
A pilot moving to an airline across the border can expect a salary of up to US$280,000 (HK$2.2 million) a year after tax, a jump of about US$80,000 (HK$624,000). Other benefits include the lower costs of living on the mainland, and up to three months of leave.
“We forget [these also] motivate pilots and personnel,” said Jose Jimenez, a pilot recruiter and a captain for Beijing Capital Airlines. Jimenez said he expected more Hong Kong-based pilots to move to the mainland.
He added that another pull factor for pilots was a reliable roster that ensured they had more leisure and family time.
“We are in the early stages [of such movement in flight personnel]. If Cathay Pacific doesn’t correct this rolling back of terms and conditions – such as removing housing benefits – they are going to see this trend happen.”

[Pucka]

Its pretty sad that a management that suffers both from institutionalised arrogance and a low intelligence scatter, particularly in FOP.. has to stipulate that its pilot losses through resignation are manageable and appropriate. Once again, its a prime indicator to their marginalisation of crews such that the main stream of the organisation, (those who pen push in a 9 to 5 existence), can rally with the propaganda from HR and provide momentum to the ostracising of the pilot body per se. The latest piece from Tom Owens made NO mention of those on the line flying their aircraft..not one mention. He speaks about leadership and so called "teams". HAECO gets a passing nod but absolutely NO discussion lean towards the pilot body. So thus, the agenda is clear. The dichotomy here is one of basics. The wood for the trees…where CX is an airline; it IS a brand and that brand is carried shoulders high by both the pilots and the cabin staff. The health of the airline is metres by those who work at its coal face, NOT those that enjoy a side bolt existence as add ons and niceties that place the furry balls on the mirrors and that includes the so called peoples department. HR/personnel is a tertiary annexe to any company after it has settled into a trimester regime and begun to post profit. It does not lead the company and in no way represents the way that the company functions, it is merely a litmus to employing, employment and personnel management. It has NO function beyond the office door and has no part in the way the SOP's, the absolute way we fly or the fundamentals of operation organise the shape of our operation. The so called "time to win", previous mission statements (mostly void of purpose or content and meaning), are sliders to allow us to enjoy the beatings we are all about to receive. What I do find bizarre, is the complete lack of hubris that senior directorship, as part of winning us on side with their mantra, might have shown..if only to win the C scale vote..and as HFK mentioned..if I may paraphrase..its just a matter of time...

[Loopdeloop]

So CX have today reached out to their high level contacts who've threatened Longreach with legal action over the pilot recruitment seminars planned for this week.
But they're not worried. Very few pilots are leaving. Pilot churn is all within manageable limits. Really it is. They're not concerned at all. Honestly, it's nothing to do with CX. Just random checks by employment officials.

[Trafalgar]

This is the sort of nefarious behaviour that I love to see being committed by CX management. They think they are being 'clever', but all they do is help reinforce what a corrupted, venal and ultimately doomed group of losers they really are. In a proper first world environment (hello HK Govt, you are anything but), this sort of bs could not happen. The only way CX can function is in this third world polluted hellhole where the rule of law is a joke at best. That is why the only threat to conditions is being made against HK pilots, and not those on bases. HK is the only place their tactics have a hope of working without transgressing every labour law worth the name. In any event, Longreach will use this to their advantage, as a gentle reminder to all who they speak to of the facts of life in HK , which will only help their case of attracting many more CX/KA pilots. No matter what tactics CX employs, their panic is evident, and the exodus begins. This has just shown how panicked they really are. Anna and Rupert have made yet another strategic blunder.

[Dilbert68]

They can't stop the exodus now even if they wanted to, cancelling the roadshow is going to have the opposite effect.

It's not just about money. I don't know anybody that actually enjoys working here anymore. Your working life takes up a significant part of your entire life, why be miserable???

At a time when we should all be pulling in the same direction to expand the airline and capture market share, 100% of management's energy is spent on attacking the pilots. This place is a sad joke.

[Trafalgar]

I state this will all seriousness and accuracy: On a selection of my past few months longhaul flights, I have asked my crew what their intentions are. Here are the statistics:

1) 2 FO, one with job offer awaiting course date, the other interviewing with two airlines in Nov. SO preparing to leave back to Aus
2) 2 FO, both interviewing in Nov
3) 2 FO, one already in notice period, the other has applied to Quantas and V Aus
4) 2 FO, one waiting for course date with UPS, the other interviewed 'recently' with UA
5) 2 FO, one about to retire, the other has applied to two Aus airlines and NZ
6) 2 FO, one in notice period, joining a 'US'carrier, the other joining a UK airline (can't remember name)
7) 2 FO, one staying because his wife works in HK, the other leaving for Jet 2, SO planning on leaving as soon as another offer is made in the UK
8) 2 FO, both interviewing in the US
9) 2 FO, one is leaving for Easy Jet, the other is interviewing with 2 airlines in Nov
10)2 FO, one is planning on leaving within the month (course date at short notice, but I won't mention airline as I know he doesn't want to be identified), the other is interviewing with two airlines in Nov and Dec.

Anna, the above is factual, and you can choose to take note or discount as you wish. The information tells me all I need to know about the reality of the maelstrom about to hit this airline. The AOA should simply walk away and let the reality of what is about to happen hit you square in the face. The only good thing about this is that it encourages me to see that so many of your pilots have woken up to the fact that it is not worth spending another day at CX, wasting their lives, careers and families futures, working for people that only know how to bully and threaten. Your style of management is decrepit, discredited and on it's way to the scrap yard. Most of the pilots (below 45 yrs old) in CX have woken up to the fact that it is better to get on the seniority ladder elsewhere, sooner rather than later. The fact that we have 20+ year employees leaving, the fact that we have people leaving just prior to Command says all you need to know about how little faith there is left in CX. You have failed. You're the only one who can't see it.

[Trafalgar]

....I've now got to get some sleep, but there is more of the above to quote. Between resignations, retirements and 'illness', this airlines operations are about to collapse. How's the holiday travel plans coming along Mr. Joe Public?

[Air Profit]

Reference No 7 above: perhaps that's the answer for CX: have them give jobs to all the wives of pilots. They can join the army of 'past their sell date' gweipo women that strut around the 'street' in CX city, trying to pretend they are still attractive, stuffed into dresses two sizes too small and pretending they have posh accents and some relevance. Most of them wouldn't make waitress in a roadside diner anywhere else in the world. Funny how the cull of staff three months ago didn't seem to take any of them out. I suppose it's all the 'service' they provide the senior management. :eek:

[morningcoffee]

Hate to interject any truth into this discussion. So since my seniority number hasn’t changed at any rate now that’s been any different from the last 10 year’s can the conspiracy theorists come up with a reason why.

[GMEDX]

Easy. If you are a manager and towards the top it won't change much as there aren't many people above you. It is at the bottom that it will be noticeable.

[GMEDX]

Housing has for a long time been know as Cx's Golden Handcuffs. Take those handcuffs off and see what happens.

[Air Profit]

They are beginning to see it, and soon it will run them over like a freight train.

[OK4Wire]

Morning coffee.

GMEDX's answer carries a lot of truth.

My number has moved up at approximately twice the rate of official retirements. I wonder why?

[Dan Winterland]

According to the helpers network, three domestic helpers in my street have had their contracts terminated because their CX bosses are leaving. I think lots of people were on the point of leaving, but have now been pushed over the edge.

[PanZa-Lead]

Including me.. 25yrs here.. had enough

[Pucka]

The trouble with the senior guys, the ones over 60, is that most companies won't employ you as a post 60 starter even if they employ until 65. China won't even look at you unless you are under 55..so please don't castigate the senior pilots for staying on…assuming they do, since its more about being unable to move AOT wishing to stay. And those with longevity..many have been through divorce..some more than once and are effectively here to simply survive by trying to rebuild their life over again..I can assure you..many of the older peeps would leave if they were financially in the right place...

[GTC58]

As far as the seniority list goes, I know guys who left 2 months ago and they are still on the seniority list. As such I believe the seniority list is at least lagging 2 months behind officers resignation date.

[Loopdeloop]

The seniority list isn't reliable. If you retire or are fired then your name disappears pretty much straight away but I've seen names still on there several months after people have left through resignation or death.

[BubbaJ]

Housing has for a long time been know as Cx's Golden Handcuffs. Take those handcuffs off and see what happens.

Lets face it, it was the only reason we all came here in the first place. $$

[Krone]

Morning coffee,

Air Canada looking for 450 in 2018
Ryanair looking for 700 in 2018-19
Easyjet looking for 500 2018
Qantas recruiting 200 now
VietJet 400 now
BA 400 2018-19 ( upper age limit 49 )
Virgin Atlantic 150
Virgian Australia 80

US Airlines THOUSANDS by 2020
Dragonair 200 in 2018

How do you arrive at these figures??

[jumbobelle]

As far as the seniority list goes, I know guys who left 2 months ago and they are still on the seniority list. As such I believe the seniority list is at least lagging 2 months behind officers resignation date.

Much longer than 2 months. There are DEAD people on the seniority list. Yes really.

[OK4Wire]

Much longer than 2 months

Considering just how quickly (nano-seconds?) one's meal allowance disappears should one be unfortunate enough to arrive late, perhaps the seniority list is being deliberately padded?

[Dead Serious]

How do you arrive at these figures??

official figures from BALPA. A real union.

[Bueno Hombre]

Not going to happen. Ex US and other military pilots will continue to fill the gap.

[VR-HFX]

There is more than anecdotal evidence to support the chaos theory of rostering. A call from CC after retirement has happened and I would suggest this is not an isolated incident, especially on the FX. Traf, I like your work and guessing you may even go back to the green marrow days. Think your straw poll is spot on and once all the loyal pax, who have been prepared to pay more to fly with us, work this out, we will be no diffferent from our bucket shop competitors. Nero plays on.

[atr-drivr]

Not going to happen. Ex US and other military pilots will continue to fill the gap.

Really? Where would you come up with that?:cool:

[Shep69]

Not going to happen. Ex US and other military pilots will continue to fill the gap.

Ummmm...yeah.....

Air Force could recall up to 1,000 retired pilots after Trump order | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/21/air-force-could-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots-after-trump-order.html)

Air Force preparing B-52 bombers for 24-hour alert status, official says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/22/air-force-preparing-b-52-bombers-for-24-hour-alert-status-official-says.html)

Now, just because the authorization happens doesn't mean the recall is GOING to happen (other incentives and possibly stop loss/service commitments would be used first)--but it is significant in that it's unprecedented in recent history, a large change, and points to a definite lack of supply. And that's for ONE branch of the service.

FWIW most of the services are significantly influenced by politics at the planning levels and aren't particularly forward (long term) looking. So stuff like this is reactive in nature meaning (like watching a developing storm on radar rather than predicting storms will develop) it's actually happening and they didn't expect it. Making this action is a lagging indicator--they have found themselves in the midst of a real problem.

And an increased alert status (of whatever form) takes a HUGE amount of resources (read crews--think of it as form continuous reserve which eats away resources and is hugely inefficient)-- the major reason it was dropped in the early 90s commensurate with the perceived decrease in threat (not commenting if the change in posturing is based on a real threat--just that as it IS happening it will take a large amount of crews to man it). One wing isn't going to have a huge impact, but this indicates a significant change across the board toward readiness not seen since the Reagan administration.

So there's no way in hell the military pipeline will solve the supply problem; quite the opposite.

Combine that with the (real) numbers of cockpit vacancies by carriers (which are actually happening too) and you get a pretty clear picture; one that hasn't occurred to this large of an extent since I've been flying.

Now, it's POSSIBLE for the company to hire those from places with little other options and/or run a ground up apprenticeship (taking on kids who have no experience or background in aviation from start to ratings). This takes a huge training commitment and in the latter a great deal of time. More importantly, there's no way you can really keep the people here as they gain experience and ratings without keeping them happy in some fashion or other--folks USED to fall for the fleeting carrot but that game is long gone and the hand is played out.

So what you can expect to see is you have some hanger-oners (older folks marking time toward retirement in some fashion -- having a 'cash out' and leave mentality which isn't particularly productive and continue to be expensive), much younger folks (who are keen but lacking in qualifications and ratings--and using a great deal of resources to upgrade--which limits their productivity also) with a recurring mass exodus in the middle (who are generally your most productive people--having the qualifications and ratings, are still fairly keen and motivated, and are of lower cost). Now, you COULD target a sliding scale HKPA (or other incentives) toward those who you wish to retain (which is probably the plan) but most folks in the business are wise enough to look down the road a little bit and at what is and has been happening (knowing that the entire industry is seniority driven) and make career decisions accordingly. The cockpit openings are just beginning in earnest and aren't going to abate anytime soon.

The cancellation of ARAPA, the mass sackings (or 'trimming if you prefer), the propaganda coming down the pike, the 'continuous reserve' rostering, using the 'c' word, etc. was all HUGE blunder (as was the cancellation of RPs). Ironically enough, there's little--if any--difference between RP16 (or whatever you want to call it) and RP07. Not really over economics (the company will probably find out the money they have to use to target sectors they wish to retain exceeds what they would have had to pay in the first place--but this won't be until after many of those sectors have left--just like they are finding out the rolling schedule collapses cost them a great deal more than leaving the roster alone in the first place) but more importantly over loss of confidence and futures. Folks are seeing the dark side of the company--of what it CAN do when it wants to impose things (and of how it CAN impose things essentially on a whim in many cases) and wondering if they actually want a future with such an organization. Or can recommend such an organization to high functioning colleagues who might want to sign on.

And their attitude is changing as a result of this--as are their plans for the future. Instead of aspiring to be in the top 5% you begin to push people down toward the lower 5% -- and this is a really really bad way to do business. Incentive based organizations will eat you alive.

Like I said the really big blunder part is none of it really had to happen -- you're bending over pinching pennies as dollars fly out of your pockets. It wouldn't take much to keep people happy and have a feeling of belonging to a culture that encourages excellence. Simply doing nothing would have resulted in a better situation than the company has found itself in.

So at the end of the day the loss of confidence across the board based on conscious acts recently happening is driving the attrition of people you need the most.

[Trafalgar]

The crewing crisis is beginning to reach into all areas worldwide. In particular China, USA and beginning as well in Europe. The US industry is in such trouble that the US Govt just issued a recall to a 1000 pilots, currently at airlines, to return to the services. Further, the US airlines are discussing with the Govt to issue visas to foreign nationals to be hired in the mainline industry. The regional's ALREADY have such a visa waiver in place. China cannot possibly keep up with the demand, hence the active recruiting by company's such as Longreach (CX...you pathetic bunch of panicked losers), and every other recruitment agency on earth. High pay, commuting rosters, and a lot less bs than you would deal with at CX. Europe is beginning to feel the same pressure (just ask Moronman O'leary at Ryanair, who now realises that pilots are his most precious commodity). CX is desperate to get that last bit of false economy cuts in place so the management can bag their bonuses and then leave the wreckage behind. To the AOA leadership: your comms are awful, your competency in doubt. Either explain exactly what the strategy and plan is, or leave the negotiations. The members are going to be taking their own action anyway, so either get on board or get out of the way. Soon, neither the union or the company will be relevant, because most of their pilots are in the process of leaving anyway. :ugh:

[xpndr777]

If any management pilot is reading this thread there should be alarm bells sounding concerning the mental health of this man who I am assuming is a Captain in your airline. He should not be allowed near the controls of anything let alone an airliner with 300 people on board .

[Shep69]

If any management pilot is reading this thread there should be alarm bells sounding concerning the mental health of this man who I am assuming is a Captain in your airline. He should not be allowed near the controls of anything let alone an airliner with 300 people on board .
Yeah there should be alarm bells of some sort all right because the candid sentiment and perspective IMHO is representative of most. They just don’t choose to type words on this particular internet site.

And they got pushed to where they are by the strife and goings on IMHO initiated by the management shenanigans.

You can take that for what it’s worth.

[Vermin]

Yeah there should be alarm bells of some sort all right
You can take that for what it’s worth.

Are you suggesting that a CX pilot may, if really pushed, commit an act akin to German Wings? Do you really know if the poster Trafalgar is this unstable ?

If so, its a police matter , and the sooner the better. Totally shocking if true.

[Trafalgar]

Taking my med's daily... :ooh::rolleyes:

(xpndr777 and Vermin. 8 and 5 posts respectively. Management lackeys trying to muddy the waters. As pathetic as interfering with the Longreach discovery days. Have you guys not got some "Time to Win" paperwork to file...?)

[morningcoffee]

So all those C scale F/Os that had BA minimum requirements and could apply for BA in the last couple of years. On their C scale package and almost none left, maybe 2, and yet I’m supposed to believe B scalers are going in droves.

[Shep69]

Are you suggesting that a CX pilot may, if really pushed, commit an act akin to German Wings? Do you really know if the poster Trafalgar is this unstable ?

If so, its a police matter , and the sooner the better. Totally shocking if true.
Of course not and you know it. I am suggesting that the degree of strife and malfeasance propagated by the industrial situation is unhealthy on every level, that this is widespread, and that this does have the definite potential to affect individual health as well as safety of flight.

Pilots are good at compartmentalization but this doesn’t always work. And people who are overly concerned about things other than flying probably shouldn’t be — unfortunately self-assessment has its limits and the current climate doesn’t help. Do I see anyone as a ticking time bomb ? No. Do I see folks who seem to be constantly resentful, apathetic, fearful, angry, and concerned due to broken promises and imposed conditions (as well as fatigued due to continuously unstable rosters) — absolutely. And there sure do seem to be a lot of them and it’s worse than I’ve ever seen it. I’m just waiting to be surprised by something positive but this has been a real vacuum.

And were I a supervisor I’d sure as hell be concerned about the current industrial climate.

[Trafalgar]

So all those C scale F/Os that had BA minimum requirements and could apply for BA in the last couple of years. On their C scale package and almost none left, maybe 2, and yet I’m supposed to believe B scalers are going in droves.

...but they WILL go....especially when they start looking beyond the 'spiky haired' stage, towards family/children/retirement... Then they will be GONE. And the trigger will be once they realise that they are losing seniority numbers at their eventual career home (obviously not CX). Then they will hit the 'exit button' in a panic and be on their way. That process is being exponentially aggravated by the company showing them just exactly what a pathetic and unstable career they can expect if they stay at CX.

[Progress Wanchai]

If any management pilot is reading this thread there should be alarm bells sounding concerning the mental health of this man who I am assuming is a Captain in your airline. He should not be allowed near the controls of anything let alone an airliner with 300 people on board .

Completely agree with this FNG.

In fact, management don’t even have to be reading this board. They’re about to find out in no uncertain fashion that many dozens, if not hundreds, of their front line crews are so mentally disturbed by the toxic circus that this place has become that they are currently unfit to be anywhere near a control seat.

[Oldaircrew]

Where is this mythical "better place"?

Almost all airlines are run by morons who have no clue how to manage staff or how to treat them properly. They are, as the septics would put it, "one trick ponys". All they can do is cut costs.

I believe that you will be going from the frying pan to the fire.

[Freehills]

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?

[humbleppl]

I am not a professional pilot but a very professional pax on your CX/ KA routes (over 100 sectors a year, since many years). It is disgusting that your Management loses fortunes on wrong fuel and currency bets and the staff (cockpit, cabin, back office) have to suffer. What message do they send to the aviation world (both professionals and pax)... As far as us passengers are concerned: declining services since years (you even manage to fit the most beautiful a/c, 350, sorry to the Boing guys, with lousy low quality insides)... Your KA delays, due to terrible cockpit crew rosters (not China ATC!!!) have become unacceptable. Your company has stolen hundreds of hours from me personally over the last few years, only because of its incompetent cost saving rosters (not ATC!!!). How many times do I take the first flight out from HKG (or an outside port) and the flight is terrible delayed due to min. crew rest... If you ask me, if no immediate complete management overhaul takes place to solve the management problems (your problem is not paying good money to good people), that was it for CX/ KA. The competition from left, right and centre (literally) are happy to capitalize and take over good CX/ KA people and ex CX/ KA customers. Shame on the CX/ KA management!

[BlunderBus]

They're already fighting for survival ... they just don't know it yet!!

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Ah you gotta love Les Mis. Were you on the Paris Base a while back ?

[Air Profit]

Where is this mythical "better place"?

Almost all airlines are run by morons who have no clue how to manage staff or how to treat them properly. They are, as the septics would put it, "one trick ponys". All they can do is cut costs.

I believe that you will be going from the frying pan to the fire.


You don't need a 'better place'. You only need to know that this is without doubt a 'worse place'. Impossible living space, poor health care, expensive food and other living costs. Toxic air, toxic values. Eventually most sane people will realise that any 'mythical' job back home is better than wasting your life, your family's life in a place that is deteriorating by the year. And doing so while working for the most toxic management in the industry. Give me the 'myth' of a better life elsewhere....

[Ivanchu]

You don't need a 'better place'. You only need to know that this is without doubt a 'worse place'. Impossible living space, poor health care, expensive food and other living costs. Toxic air, toxic values. Eventually most sane people will realise that any 'mythical' job back home is better than wasting your life, your family's life in a place that is deteriorating by the year. And doing so while working for the most toxic management in the industry. Give me the 'myth' of a better life elsewhere....

If it is so bad, then why haven't you quit yet?

[Freehills]

Yep - there's a reason why the local spikey haired brigade went out onto the streets with yellow umbrellas - at least they tried to change the way things are going. Failed miserably though... YCFB (You Can't Fight Beijing)

[Toruk Macto]

What if swire just trying to hit certain performance targets for future owner ?

[Some How I'm Tired]

Pretty hard to sell an airline with no pilots and no-one to train new ones!

[goathead]

Pretty hard to sell an airline with no pilots and no-one to train new ones!

What am I missing something? Have the trainers done the unthinkable ?
I think not! Absolutely no way

[betpump5]

If we are hoping the trainers will save the day, then you guys are living in the shadows. Some time back on yammer, a Captain out of jest mentioned something about ego's or power trips of C&Ts. It is true. Regardless if you are one of the Good guys (and I have met many in this company) or one of the Choppers, it takes a special someone to be a Check/ Training Captain.

Now these guys signed a letter taking about low experience levels and its relation to safety. This letter had no Impact whatsoever. Are these guys refusing to fly with low hour cadets? Have these guys stopped letting their loved ones use Staff travel on CX? Are these guys picketing outside CX City. Of course not. Cathay called their bluff.

Like I said, it takes a special someone to join the C&T team. And being in that position is a little to good to give up. Hey, even the Chairman with his increased workload decided to embarrass himself and ask other unions not to train us rather than leave training himself.

We are doomed.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

And when all is said and done, C & T, especially at STC level, is a quasi managerial position. You’ve crossed the line and had the laying on of hands. And the salary to boot.
You have to make your mind up if you’re outside the tent pissing in etc.
Even some of our most vociferous Yammer heroes, and vocal critics of the way management is going, find it hard to get off the moral high ground and resign. The 20% ( Pfundable) is pretty hard to let go, it seems.

[Vermin]

Lets get back to the elephant in the room: is it possible , with the current decimation of personal attainment, that a pilot of Cathay Pacific would consider the " ultimate act" and reap revenge against their employers act of empowerment?

Divorce, financial failure, peer derision and inability to function as one did, are all classic signs of impromptu self infliction and destructive behaviour.
Aka : German wings syndrome.

This is a public forum. Let the public decide who they wish to fly with. A fatalistic flyer and prolific pprune poster of hatred against CX should be avoided. The "ultimate act " of retribution should not involve the innocent.

[Dead Serious]

And when all is said and done, C & T, especially at STC level, is a quasi managerial position. You’ve crossed the line and had the laying on of hands. And the salary to boot.
You have to make your mind up if you’re outside the tent pissing in etc.
Even some of our most vociferous Yammer heroes, and vocal critics of the way management is going, find it hard to get off the moral high ground and resign. The 20% ( Pfundable) is pretty hard to let go, it seems.


To be clear. Are you talking about the guys who will be signing your licence, keeping it valid IF you have the balls to leave and join another outfit ? As for picket lines outside CX City, I don't see ANY line guys out there. Do you want the C&T pilots to fight ALL you battles for you ?
They tried. They wrote a letter, admittedly it was weak but they tried. The HKAOA didn't even reply to their request to endorse it. To date, the HKAOA hasn't written ANYTHING or provided ANY quidance to it's members.
I laugh at everyone wearing their red HKAOA lanyards to work. The message you send is "I am a sheep, I chew grass, I have no balls so screw me " and that is EXACTLY what the company is doing to you.
Grow a pair you lot.

[Air Profit]

Management Troll. Ignore.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Hmmm, seems that a few of our more capable contributors to this site have triggered the panic button back at Kitty City. xpdr777 and Vermin, shouldn't you be fetching Anna's tea and biscuits when she barks, instead of making hysterical comments about the FACTS being posted here regarding the current state of affairs at CX? Never mind the FACTS being posted laying out just how your 'despicable pilots' are all looking to take their skills elsewhere. Pretty soon you can have your little management meetings in peace: there won't be any pilots around to sully Kitty City, they will have all left for happier careers elsewhere.

(sorry AP, I can't ignore such abjectly ridiculous comments such as the two cretins mentioned have made. But yes, they are management trolls)

[mngmt mole]

All the comments on this site (and particularly this thread) are representative of the majority of opinion and attitude within the airline. It seems that management now think that thought not in accordance with their own thinking is to be considered 'dangerous' and 'mentally unbalanced'. Just another insight into the complete delusion and disconnect from reality that pervades our management. Anna, Rupert and others: be aware that what you are reading here represents FACT as it pertains to the majority sentiment amongst the pilots of CX. The criticisms, damnation's and scathing rejection of what you are doing to this airline is held by us ALL. From someone who used to work in the management of this airline, I have seen the dysfunction first hand. I have sat in on your meetings, many times in complete disgust and disbelief in what I would hear coming from the mouths of your kind. You are not worthy of 'leading' the good pilots of this airline. Not a one of you. In fact, your own evident incompetence is an affront to the sincere, competent, loyal and trustworthy efforts that the pilots contribute to this company day in and day out. You should be ashamed to even mingle with us on "The Street", never mind comment on how we do our jobs. If you don't like what you read here, then change the circumstances that have led to this TRUTH being disseminated. The world is reading this, and not only are you losing the pilots you have, you are losing the ability to deceive others into joining (other than individuals with no experience or judgment). The tide has turned. You need to sit down, and sincerely sue for peace with the AOA. The last, thin chance you have of avoiding disaster is rapidly fading. Ball in your court.

[xpndr777]

FACTS what facts??
This is all FAKE NEWS no one including management know what's ahead . It's all BS made up by cretins on blogs such as this which have damaged CX. Are you proud of yourselves doing your best to destroy the hand that feeds you. You accuse Anna and her colleagues of not leading and taking a pay cut but you lot are no better! Not one of you has resigned but you get on here and tell all the young pilots who are just starting their careers to either not come here or resign . Where's the leadership amongst you lot??If it wasn't so sad it would be funny . What a mob of chicken **** hypocrites.

[mngmt mole]

ahhh, hello management troll. Apparently your buttons been pushed? That's the problem with your entire group of failed management cretins: you can't see the truth if it struck you square in the face, mainly due to the fact that a career based on deception and lies prevents you from recognising truth. The FACTS are that it is the MANAGEMENT that has damaged this airline, possibly fatally. Through grossly incompetent financial disasters such as Fuel Hedging, Currency Hedging, to destroying our product, alienating customers, killing our frequent flier program, and now, causing a crewing crisis that is about to become critical, the damage has been done by YOU and YOURS.

The FACTS are that you and your kind have spent 25 years denigrating and marginalising your most valuable group of employees, the people who are highly skilled and usually commit their entire careers to their employer: the pilots. Then, you missed the FACT that the situation regarding a developing worldwide pilot shortage was slowly closing a vice around your long held delusion that pilots would 'always' come to and stay at CX. Then you chose that very moment to attack your most valuable group of pilots, the C and T's, just at that inflection point when most of us either don't care if we stay anymore, or have other opportunities to go to back in our home countries. FACT.

As for 'accussing' Anna and her cohorts of not taking a pay cut? Listen up moron: that is what REAL leaders do: they take the FIRST cuts BEFORE they burden their employees. You know, that old 'leading by example' thing. And as for 'Us being no better'. That comment just shows how out of touch you are. We as a group have been taking cuts FOR 25 YEARS. And regarding 'not one of you has resigned'. What planet ARE you on? The resignation rate has hit historically high levels, and is now only going to get worse from hereon in. Nearly all of the mid seniority level pilots (500 up to 3000) are ACTIVELY looking for new jobs. And guess what?, they are finding there are MANY attractive options. In case it's escaped your notice (and i'm sure it has, as you are obviously thick), CX has managed to endorse a policy that seems designed to 'chase away' their own pilots, and repel anyone with any sense from applying. Compare that to other carriers around the world who's managements have recognised the coming crewing crisis and are positively making their companies and career offers attractive and desirable. The Swire's are truly proving just how unfit for purpose they are. The young pilots around the world have had their "CX mythology" broken, and it won't be returning. The name of this airline is 'mud' in every corner of the planet. Oh, and btw, we don't have to 'tell' the young pilots to either not come here or resign, they are figuring that all out by themselves.

As for leadership amongst 'our lot'. Well, you see it here on PPRUNE, where many of us are giving those around the world, and within the airline the unadulterated truth, helping them realise that to have a stable and productive career they must move, sooner rather than later. The 'mob of chicken sh*t' hypocrites are the likes of you, Anna, Rupert et al who are attempting to pad their own bank balances on the backs of the very employees who actually keep the airline running. That is not only hypocritical, but venal and immoral. Nice company you keep. And oh, btw, your post has just shown in all it's glorious technicolour just how panicked, delusional and ultimately doomed to failure you will all be. The scales have been cleared away from our eyes, and most of us are now not only not really caring anymore, but won't even be here much longer TO care. See what you and your 'mob' have sown? Deal with it. The storm is almost here, and it will flatten your house. I realise that you couldn't make it here in London, so you're struggling in HK. Based on your hysterics, you really need to apply to the council back home while they still have jobs available for parking wardens. Now, down to the pub where I will drink a pint to the demise of you and your kind.

[xpndr777]

I rest my case! RESIGN!!!!

[Apple Tree Yard]

Well, he would have to stand in line with all the other hundreds of pilots about to do the same! :E Seriously xpdr777, you are making a fool of yourself. Screaming "RESIGN" and "MENTAL ILLNESS" and "DANGEROUS" has only confirmed that you are in need of a long rest by the seaside. Funny how you can't address the facts that have just been laid out with clarity for you. But that is typical of your entire management group. Deluded, arrogant, incompetent and ultimately doomed to failure (professionally and in life, as no one with such little integrity and character will succeed in either case).

[Trafalgar]

Fantastic rebuttal xpdr. Brilliant debate of the facts. In awe.

[oriental flyer]

There has always been this perception amongst airline management that all you had to do was shake the tree and any number of highly qualified pilots would drop out just dying to work for you .
That is no longer the case , there are now vacancies everywhere ,I have never seen so many jobs advertised on the Internet . Airlines are running short of one vital commodity "PILOTS" , especially trained pilots . It takes years to train a pilot to a suitable standard and new pilots are being put off entering the workplace due to high training costs , poor starting salaries , and lousy working conditions .
So where the airlines are going to get pilots over the next 15 years I do not know

[Average Fool]

If the past is any indication of how things will pan out, the problem will be in the hands of their successors.

Reducing the housing costs will be a major "win" for them and they will likely be re-appointed to another well suited Swire toy box to play with.

Fitness centers perhaps???

[BusyB]

xpndr777,

Thanks for describing yourself and your management colleagues

" including management know what's ahead . It's all BS made up by cretins"

Thats exactly what your latest plans are and you are correct , none of you have the brains to realise what's ahead. :D:D:D:D

[Dragon69]

I rest my case! RESIGN!!!!

WOW! What a,juvenile response to a well presented post.If this douchebag is really management, just highlights the level of intelligence of some of these managers.

Resign you say? I will most definitely by year's end, it's just not worth it anymore. And guess what, many more around my vintage will be doing same by next year as soon as they have finalised their exit strategy. Cx is going to be caught with their pants down. Wait and see.

[Rascasse]

Xpdr777. Even as and when most of us DO resign, we will still enjoy posting daily on PPRUNE exactly why we left, and why no one in their right mind should join. I left 4 months ago and I feel it my duty to advise all and sundry just what a poor choice joining CX would be. No one should have to endure a minute of their precious careers being beholden to malignant idiots such as yourself (and the rest of CX management). You have created the tornado, you can enjoy being thrown around inside the funnel. :ok:

[Rascasse]

I should also add that my new employer is hoping to take as many qualified pilots from CX as possible. The manager I spoke with in detail about the conditions at CX had a hard time believing that any airline management would be behaving that way at a time when hiring suitable pilots was more difficult than any time in the past 40 years. He termed it "Corporate Suicide". Verbatim.

[Rascasse]

xpdr777. So you are now suggesting that employees who disagree with our management 'group think' are to be considered 'dangerous' and 'mentally ill'? Congratulations, you have now just joined the esteemed company of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, who both condemned people with the same labels for standing up to their tyranny. Any other noble accomplishments you are hoping to achieve this week?

[checklistcomplete]

Guys, A great mate in CX asked me to log onto this site and give you guys a heads up about flying for China Southern.
I was formerly on the 777 with them based in China but two years ago moved over to the 787 base in Vancouver. In the LHS I earn and am paid in USD378K last year and USD362K in 2016. That is tax free in Canada as I pay 6% tax in China but this is refunded by the company at the end of each year. I am based in YVR and the other 2 pilots are normally Canadian Chinese also based in YVR. Cabin crew are from China and often Shanghai based on a W pattern.
The aircraft are brand spanking new and a joy to operate.
I get 6 weeks leave per year and can take this as and when I like providing I give one months roster advance notice. You always get you requested leave.
My roster is published on the first of every month for the next month but being YVR based is fairly predictable with 3.5 return flights per month and two days paid standby. This last year I have had pretty well every weekend off with my family.
I have met the Chief Pilot once and renew the various ratings once a year at a one week refresher training week. Staff travel is excellent and covers just about every airline in the world ( including CX ). Captains travel business class at all times when positioning which is rare in my case. You can change base giving one years notice. So for example my eldest is starting uni in UK next year and I have applied to move to AMS. It has been granted already and I keep my USD salary.
Paul asked me to comment on the horror stories. truthfully there aren't any in my case. I find the company easy to communicate with. They listen and pamper almost every request. The few times I do fly with China based FO's they are well mannered, impecably turned out and do their job well. I believe you have a different story in CX with the "spikey hair brigade ?"
I had reservations about leaving my old outfit in Japan but have never looked back. China Southern is very forward thinking, respects it's pilot workforce and rewards us fairly. No union of course but then I hear you don't have an effective one either.
I was asked to write this and am happy to do so.The grass is greener over here. Relatively stress free, good rewards and RESPECT. I'll keep going here until I have to retire.

Good luck to you all.

[OK4Wire]

xpdr777:

You said This is all FAKE NEWS

Classic shrillness that is relied upon by the Left (and others) when you cannot debate the actual facts.

[FUANNA]

This is it.

The final battle has begun, after attacking our profession for the past 25 years, they have now come to pick up the bits and pieces, the crumbs on the table.

They are coming for your homes, health, pensions and lifestyles.

You can either pick up your lives and run, as most of us are currently preparing to do, or fight this last fight.

Its your choice.

[Air Profit]

Not either or. Both. I, and most of my direct peer group are going to fight them tooth and nail, and aim to cause as much pain and damage as possible (holiday plans with CX would be foolhardy). At the same time, we are ALL actively seeking new employment. It is quite amazing to canvas my colleagues and find that not ONE of them is planning on staying. CX has no idea of the devastation to their pilot ranks that is about to unfold. They have pushed us one step too far, and we are done. None of us are willing to chance our careers and our families futures on the false promises of a discredited and proven group of liars and bullies. Good riddance. I am eagerly looking forward to my first day at my new employer. Can't come soon enough.

[Progress Wanchai]

FACTS what facts??
This is all FAKE NEWS no one including management know what's ahead . It's all BS made up by cretins on blogs such as this which have damaged CX. Are you proud of yourselves doing your best to destroy the hand that feeds you. You accuse Anna and her colleagues of not leading and taking a pay cut but you lot are no better! Not one of you has resigned but you get on here and tell all the young pilots who are just starting their careers to either not come here or resign . Where's the leadership amongst you lot??If it wasn't so sad it would be funny . What a mob of chicken **** hypocrites.

FNG,

Facts? I’ll give you facts.
If a dozen rather smelly turds, vacuum packed into air tight bags and placed into storage boxes in the janitor’s closet on the 9th floor had of been managing this company for the past 5 years, then the company would be in better shape than it is today. Fact. Either they are deliberately running the company into the ground or they are hopelessly incompetent. Either way, they need to go.

The real Cathay Pacific are the 35,000 employees and every single one of them wants this company to thrive. Actively agitating for the removal of the current senior management team is being pro-company.

[LongTimeInCX]

Even simpler:

They pretend to treat me with respect and pay me,

and in return:

I'll pretend to work, but only on the days it suits me.

[FlyingNun]

Oh Dear... God bless you all, where do I start?
You're not happy with your:
1- Roster,
2- Pay,
3- Medical support,
4- Housing and school benefits,
5- Future,
6- Management (or the lack of it)

Then would one of you, hot heads, tell the world:- Why are you still working for CX? Do you really enjoy Stress that much?
You are all like your AOA, full of hot air...
:ugh:
Are we gonna hear in the news that 300 pilots resigned together? Of course not. Now run along and go fighting Typhoons.

[Trafalgar]

Thank you for a concise summation: It helps those still wavering to conclude that they do need to leave. Now why don't you run along and go and style another camel.

(there, that make you happier?. Just being geographically correct. I'd call you a snowflake, but wouldn't last long where you live).

[FlyingNun]

Thank you for a concise summation: It helps those still wavering to conclude that they do need to leave. Now why don't you run along and go and shag another camel.

As well as being Gutless, Trafalgar is also Racist. :=
Pprune Management please take note.
Run along Trafalgar and wash your mouth with some Fragrant Harbour Water.
God Bless you.

[DropKnee]

As well as being Gutless, Trafalgar is also Racist. :=
Pprune Management please take note.
Run along Trafalgar and wash your mouth with some Fragrant Harbour Water.
God Bless you.
How is shagging a camel racists?
If a suggestion to shag a sheep was put fourth, would that be racists? Both imply only a certain group engages in such activities. It could be possible that many cultures enjoy shagging sheep and camels. For you to suggest otherwise makes you a racists!

[Air Profit]

Flying Nun. Traf was a hair stylist in a previous life. As you know, 'shag' is a form of hair style. He was suggesting you go and spend some time giving a camel a new hairstyle. You know, "be kind to camel week". I see by your username that you may be somewhat 'repressed', so it is easy to see how you misconstrued his comment. Easily done. :rolleyes:

[Shep69]

Good heavens.

These knucklehead newly posting shills can’t even troll on the internet properly.

Hey Nun — fwiw if you haven’t figured it out yet the first one to yell racist has usually lost the point long ago. Doesn’t work.

Maybe we really ARE losing money.

[Trafalgar]

Lol....thanks for the help at clarification guys. It's obvious that the Nun is somewhat sensitive. She can throw out the insults, but not so good at taking them. An example of the liberal left at their finest. I'll get back to hairstyling soon enough once i've left CX, which, when you read the Nun's list you can start to appreciate why most of us planning on the same.

[mngmt mole]

Flying Nun. You scream hysterically that what Traf had to say was 'offensive' and 'racist', yet you are quite happy to copy and paste the quote to make sure it's seen by even more people. Obviously you think it isn't really that offensive after all. Or, by your own admission and actons, YOU are being racist by promoting said quote. At least Traf had enough courtesy to respond to your bruised sensitivities by amending the quote. (and btw, shag is a hairstyle, a rug, a form of dance, and yes, even a form of physical interaction. Get over it). :hmm:

[Apple Tree Yard]

FN, for all your hysterical bleatings (oops, sorry, that would imply sheep, er...never mind), you started this by attacking the motives and issues of the CX pilots. You must get a hell of a tan in the desert, considering how 'thin-skinned' you obviously must be.

[xpndr777]

If your house has got termites and you don't do anything about it your house will eventually fall down. You can't see them but you know they are there eating away at the very fabric of everything that you have built up over decades of hard work by many of the best pilots the airline industry has had . This once proud airline if management do not do something about it soon will be left in ruins. Please I am not a management troll or even a Nazi as these gentlemen have accused me of being just an retired old CX captain who finds it hard to sit back and watch this happening . Evidently they don't want to be here but they won't resign so CX now is the time to act if you know who these termites are can you please call in the exterminators??

[BusyB]

Management are the termites. Can you not see that?

[xpndr777]

You know the old house could do with a paint she's not looking as good as I'd like but I've been retired for over 10 years now and don't have the spare cash I used to have ?Maybe in in a couple of years if I don't take that cruise we were planning I might use the money and get the place painted. I've lived in this place for a long time now and she might not be looking too good at the moment but at least I know the foundations are solid and we don't have termites . No the wife and I won't be going anywhere we love this place through good times and not so good times?

[Air Profit]

"...i'm not management..., just a 10 yr retired skipper..." haha, you need to give it a rest mate. You are a complete management troll. If you had been around this past 20yrs or so you would have had far more than 10 posts on PPRUNE. Further, your reaction says everything we need to know about who you are. To attack Traf, and not the management certifies that you are management. Any pilot (retired or otherwise) would know that everything Traf (and others) says is the unadulterated truth. You are as transparent as a piece of crystal. As BusyB say, the management are the termites. They have corroded the airline from the inside out. The pilots are the ONLY group of employees who have kept their integrity and professionalism intact. At least they are not corrupt, venal and incompetent. Report back to your superiors that we are done with playing the game by their rules. The vast majority of us are looking for employment with companies that will treat us with a modicum of respect. It's not even about the money, but honesty and stability (never mind living back home and giving our families a proper, healthy environment to grow and enjoy). You and your self-centered cronies have pushed this one step too far, and now you will suffer the consequences. Good luck with crewing the aircraft the next few years. And doubly good luck with your holiday operational planning. Aircraft don't fly themselves. However, the operation would continue to function if every management cretin stayed home. :D

[Air Profit]

Dan. xpdr777 did not 'leave' 10 years ago. He's a management troll. No pilot would make the comments that he has.

[xpndr777]

AP you might have just highlighted one of the biggest problems management is facing right now!! You don't listen to what you are being told ?

[Air Profit]

No, I don't accept abjectly being lied to. And you (and your management colleagues) are prime examples of that. The real problem of course is the institutional arrogance of the Swire management model, that deludes them into thinking that they can forever pull the wool over the eyes of their employees. Eventually, you become so used to lying that you don't even realise you are doing it anymore. That is the situation with our management (and you) in the present era. Even more amazing is your propensity to keep digging a deeper hole. I'll go and find you a bigger shovel.

[xpndr777]

I can't speak for management but I'm not a liar . This will be my last post maybe for another 10 years you can't keep bashing your head against a brick wall and leave yourself open to personal abuse by people . I still believe the majority of CX pilots are honest good hard working people who want this to be resolved asap so they can get on with their lives. Those who are planning on leaving please do and you never know the grass mightn't be as green on the other side as you thought??To those left standing here CX has been through many crise's in the past and they will get through this one as well!

[Trafalgar]

I’m guessing that your “this will be my last post for another 10 years” comment will prove to be another lie. You cant help yourselves. As mentioned: it’s institutional.

[Oval3Holer]

Hmm... It's rare that a person in his 60s (presumably) uses an apostrophe to (attempt to) pluralize crisis. Usually, this is the mark of someone younger. I smell a troll.

[Trafalgar]

....and the ‘grass’ is only one colour at CX. Burnt brown. Like the air in HK. It was only the money that kept people in CX. Other than the locals , you will very soon learn that rule of nature, as the exodus begins in earnest. (And not even the locals, many of whom are at least going to leave for HKA).

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Redacted. In error.

[Captain Dart]

The Airbus 'Baguette' newsletter is renowned for its 'grocer's apostrophes'. Must be a 'mangement' thing.

[Dragon69]

XNPDR777

Retired 10years ago? what BS!

Anyone that has been here through the 49er fiasco would not sit there and defend management in the manner that you do, unless you were a management pilot.

[shortly2]

I don't post often but I have been here a long time. I enjoy PPRUNE as a place to allow people to vent. I do not enjoy personal abuse against anyone. If XP says he is a retired CN I accept that on face value. I also remember what I was told long ago about what percentage of stuff to believe from what you read and what you hear. Google it up it's good advice. I am sure that XP is well aware of the strange decisions that have been made by t'management and I am also sure he is aware how factionalised we are. It is really sink and swim together or float together time lads and lasses.

[Shep69]

Well, the hoo-haw is certainly widespread on all levels.

Was over at Disneyland with the family the other day.

When we ran into Mickey Mouse he was wearing a Cathay Pacific watch.

[shortly2]

Well Shep I usually understand most of what you scribe but this one I have no idea what you mean. What is 'hoo-haw'?

[Dragon69]

I am sure that XP is well aware of the strange decisions that have been made by t'management

You call the firing of the 49ers a strange decision? You obviously have no clue.

[shortly2]

They were different management and whilst that was a disgusting decision were we completely blameless?

[Dragon69]

Really? So a workforce that's trying to prevent its conditions from being slashed is to blame? We've tried the nice approach since 2004, that has got us nowhere also. The lies, the power, the control, the manipulation of financial figures, etc... that hasn't changed. So no we are not to blame. Amazes me how some are so sympathetic toward management, talk about Stockholm syndrome.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Dragon. You can't fix stupid.

[shortly2]

Or honest.

[boresite]

S-2. Honestly, I think there is an element of victim blaming.....
Management: Just another scorpion. Same same, but different.

[oriental flyer]

I think it was Ed Rottington that once famously stated that the company would continue to attack pay and COS until the pilots pushed back hard enough . At that stage they would know that they had got it about right
Strikes me it's time for a massive push back

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Never fear. We’re transporting the HK Gay Games reps to Paris to help facilitate their bid. All is well and we should therefore rest easy.
Hey Traf. Are you up for the 2000 mètres. ?

[Flex88]

Never fear. We’re transporting the HK Gay Games reps to Paris to help facilitate their bid. All is well and we should therefore rest easy.
Hey Traf. Are you up for the 2000 mètres. ?

Are they going to paint the AC with a giant rainbow ?
Are those on the 3rd floor with skin in the game (no pun intended) going to fly the aircraft..

Makes ones stomach turn :yuk:

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Skin in the game; yes , a special team has been mustered. This is bound to turn our fortunes around overnight, as it will be a massive hit with the travelling public, especially our Chinese punters..not..

[Captain Dart]

Expect a few disqualifications in the Leapfrog events.

[Codpiece]

OK, here's the deal guys. A long time ago the Western carriers used to rule supreme. Then along came the Asian carriers who smashed them, followed by the ME carriers who smashed them, who are starting to be smashed by mainland Chinese carriers and Western carriers again. The Chinese have low costs and have money to burn, and the Western carriers are cashing in on low fuel bills and will ultimately benefit from "hub smashing" aircraft ( 787, 777X etc).

My point is....Cathay will retreat to some extent and become a niche player. I concede that may be happening quicker than some expected due poor fuel hedging etc. They need to maintain a high quality product and probably reduce in size. The current A & B scalers should ride it out as long as possible. New joiners should do everything possible to get some experience and get into a quality Western carrier ASAP.

The Chinese carriers pay big money but there is a HUGE amount of risk across the board. Don't go there unless you can afford to be on your arse in 6 months. You definitely need a backup plan to go there. I would recommend getting into a Western carrier ASAP and exploring the Chinese option on a leave without pay basis should that ever become available.

[Flex88]

"The Chinese carriers pay big money but there is a HUGE amount of risk across the board. Don't go there unless you can afford to be on your arse in 6 months. You definitely need a backup plan to go there. I would recommend getting into a Western carrier ASAP and exploring the Chinese option on a leave without pay basis should that ever become available"

Yes Yes. Toooo much risk. Better to stay on at CX and slowly, ever so slowly become poor and housebroke over a very long period of time so that when you expire from radiation induced cancer you can pass on that 600 sq/ft 1.5 bedroom North facing Tuen Mun flat that is still 50% in negative equity,, (Much like Chinese water torture but with a mortgage)
What a plan...:D

SLIDO, with DFOs assistance will help us all get through this !