Dundee-2

[goldeneye]

VLM Fokker 50 parked at DND since Sunday, not sure if its there for work by Loganair in the hanger. Or could it be ACMI to replace the current ATR from DOT.

[Porrohman]

The ATR is still operating the STN route.

[BAladdy]

The lease on the DOT ATR that has been operating on behalf of Loganair for the last few months ends on 31st October. Loganair will from the 1st to the 14th November lease ATT42 from the GCI based Aurigny to operate the DND-STN route. Loganair will then use a SF3 between the 15th November and 20th December.

Does anyone know what the loads have been like on the route since the ATR has been operating it?

[goldeneye]

With Loganair starting ops from Carlisle to Southend from June, would it make sense to move the DND-STN to SEN. Thus having all London flights consolidated at the one airport.

Southend is just as easy to get to Central London (Trains operate to Liverpool St as well)

[SWBKCB]

With Loganair starting ops from Carlisle to Southend from June, would it make sense to move the DND-STN to SEN. Thus having all London flights consolidated at the one airport.

Southend is just as easy to get to Central London (Trains operate to Liverpool St as well)

Does the PSO specify the destination airport?

[goldeneye]

Does the PSO specify the destination airport?

On the European Union (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016XC1029(02)) website it lists, LHR, LGW, LCY, STN, LTN and SEN as options for the PSO.

[southside bobby]

But one worthwhile for connections to the general London area & perhaps even farther afield...Over 200 airline destinations from STN as example...2nd busiest coach station in the UK as another...

The PSO is conducted for the benefit of the passengers not the airline!...

However the contract must be well into the second & last year now so time will tell how it will evolve or not...

Ms Kelly may have to be consulted!!..

[SealinkBF]

Flew from Stansted to Dundee on Wednesday morning.

6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound.
Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded.

The number of passengers who argued with the airport staff about their luggage size... completely unaware that a Ryanair 737 is a different beast to a Saab 340! Yes - they name dropped!

Service was very nice - there was an unaccompanied passenger and Loganair were excellent with them.

But Stansted. Urgh.
It is much improved - the security queues are insane - although to their credit - they move really quite quickly.

It doesn't really matter if there are 200 destinations from Stansted - you're going to be left high and dry if Loganair are late (or indeed your inbound flight from one of the over 200 destinations)...

I do think Southend or London City would be better for Loganair, but I imagine Stansted is cheap.

[BAladdy]

Flew from Stansted to Dundee on Wednesday morning.

6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound.
Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded.

You are correct, Monday to Friday - the aircraft arrives in DND from STN at 10:55 and remains on the ground until the 16:40 departure for the evening flight to STN.

I do think Southend or London City would be better for Loganair, but I imagine Stansted is cheap.
I would have thought SEN would be cheaper to operate into than STN. Does anyone know if LM could switch LON airports easily if they wanted to under the current PSO agreement?.

[EK77WNCL]

If the aircraft sits around doing nothing, why don't Loganair re-instate their old DND-BHD-DND, DND-BHX-DND or possibly Eastern's DND-MAN-DND?

[BAladdy]

If the aircraft sits around doing nothing, why don't Loganair re-instate their old DND-BHD-DND, DND-BHX-DND or possibly Eastern's DND-MAN-DND?
Another option could be to re-instate flighrs to AMS. If I recall loads and forward bookings on the route when BE operated it were good.

[SWBKCB]

Maybe they've worked out that it makes more money (loses less!) sat on the ground doing nothing... :ok:

[V12]

Maybe they've worked out that it makes more money (loses less!) sat on the ground doing nothing... :ok:

The fact that it is a PSO route tells us that it is not a commercial proposition, so it is supported by we taxpayers. Does that make any of us feel good? Any other route ex Dundee would also be loss making, so would need more taxpayer £££. I guess someone has worked out that flying a ¾ empty plane to anywhere else daily isn't going to impress the taxpayer either.

Last time I looked there was a nice big well-connected international airport just an hour's drive south, which is not only commercial but from where fares are one helluva lot cheaper. It's not as if Tayside is an island. Most land-based inhabitants find being within an hour or so catchment area of an international airport is not grounds for local subsidy.

[ld0595]

Not a huge amount going on at Dundee these days, although the Stansted service now has a codeshare with Emirates which is good news. I note that the Stansted PSO will be up in March, so hopefully this will be renewed. Could we see Loganair will moving to Southend given that they will be flying there from Carlisle? (If that ever goes ahead!) Though of course, this would impact on the EK codeshare.

I note that the Tay Cities deal has included a £9.5 million investment in and around the airport. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/770494/tay-cities-deal-signed-full-list-of-local-projects-due-to-benefit-from-millions-of-pounds-of-investment/ £9.5 million investment from the Scottish Government in and around Dundee Airport. Aimed at improving aviation facilities within the region, improving air traffic control modernisation, securing/marketing new routes and enhancing airport facilities to support passenger growth. Also includes consideration of the “opportunities arising from the Heathrow expansion”. . I guess part of this will include funding for the next PSO, but could we see any additional investment? Would be good to enhance radar coverage to encourage Flybe to bring back the Amsterdam route if they improve their financial situation.

[tescoapp]

maybe be some primrose oil dart guns for that witch that is meant o be ATC?

Radar too expensive...

the runway is short and narrow Loads are utter ****e why would any one spend a penny there?

[bad bear]

I guess the Aberdeen ring road will draw a bit of trade away when it opens in a few weeks knocking 20 or 30 + minutes off the journey to the airport from the south ?

[fjencl]

Is it soon that the PSO gets offered out for tendering again to interested parties

[ld0595]

Dundee flights to Stansted could move to different London airport (https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/potential-flight-shake-up/)
Air links between London and Dundee could be set for a shake up after it emerged funding for the current Stansted route is only set to be available until later this year.
The Tele has learned Dundee City Council is willing to contribute money to keep flights between the city’s airport and London Stansted going until October 31.
The local authority has pledged £145,000 to support the route as part of a public service obligation (PSO) package agreed between itself, the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland and route operators Loganair.
The proposal was distributed to councillors ahead of a meeting last night and agreed upon without prior discussion. Those involved have declined to comment on what has been agreed.
However, the Tele understands the intention is to put the arrangement out to tender so another airport can make a bid.
A source said: “The idea seems to be to try to get somewhere other than Stansted.”
For the last two years, the PSO agreement has guaranteed £3.7 million of funding for the Dundee-London link.
The council contributed £400,000, with the Scottish and Westminster governments providing £1.8m and £1.4m apiece.
The funding runs dry at the end of this month – after which the new, shorter arrangement is likely to take over.
A Scottish Government spokesman said: “We are currently in discussions with Dundee City Council on the way forward for the Dundee-London public service obligation air link.”
A Department for Transport spokeswoman said: “The UK Government is in discussion with both Dundee City Council and the Scottish Government about the future of the Dundee-London route. There will be an update in due course.”
Loganair, which operates the route, and Highlands and Islands Airports Limited, which operates Dundee Airport, declined to comment.

[PDXCWL45]

Probably hoping that like Newquay they could get a Heathrow link.

[AirportPlanner1]

Is it to give flexibility to the PSO allowing Loganair to consolidate at SEN? Remember they’ll have SEN-ABZ, CAX, GLA + SYY with Dundee and Derry up the road at STN.

That said, STN offers the worldwide connections via EK.

[ld0595]

Is it to give flexibility to the PSO allowing Loganair to consolidate at SEN? Remember they’ll have SEN-ABZ, CAX, GLA + SYY with Dundee and Derry up the road at STN.

That said, STN offers the worldwide connections via EK.

I would've thought that changing to SEN airport would make sense in order to consolidate all of Loganairs London ops into the one airport. I can't imagine too many people connecting onto the EK service especially given that you can go direct from Edinbrugh and Glasgow just down the road and that the prices appear to be quite a bit more anyway.

[southside bobby]

Comparing STN/SEN it would make no sense from the passenger perspective to operate the PSO into Southend as it would total zero gain in benefit & short change passengers.

PSO is for the passenger/user not for the operational suitability of an incumbent airline.

But as I have said before everyone had better ask Lorraine what she wishes.

[bad bear]

Looking at the passenger numbers from the CAA website there were 1438 passengers in all of January ( 23 each way each day??). 21185 passengers for the whole of 2018 which spread over half of the £3.7m equates to a subsidy of £87 per passenger ( each way??) and that's before subsidising the airport itself which looses money .

bb

[southside bobby]

Dundee is listed as a destination on the Emirates website because of the thru service.

Passengers can travel via STN to Emirates network of 155 destinations on a single ticket & with thru checked luggage.

Because DND/STN is a PSO passengers flying to London & onward with EK save APD of £78 in economy & £515 in business..charges which of course will be paid in EDI.

[southside bobby]

bad bear helps make the point...how then does a switch to SEN improve those figures?

But misses the point generally tho with PSO.

A/C type utilised in January SB340.

[AirportPlanner1]

The route averaged 15 per flight in Jan, a drop-off is to be expected because the first week or two are slow for business travel plus at least one flight must be missing as it went to SEN (I was flying to GLA that foggy morning). 17-18 seems the ‘normal’ average.

[SWBKCB]

I can't imagine too many people connecting onto the EK service especially given that you can go direct from Edinbrugh and Glasgow just down the road and that the prices appear to be quite a bit more anyway.

Doesn't this point undermine the whole reason for the PSO? EDI and GLA are just down the road, so why are we subsidising flights?

PSO is for the passenger/user not for the operational suitability of an incumbent airline

Absolutely! What has the operational convenience of the airline got to do with it? Only argument would be if they could offer the same level of benefit at a reduced cost to the taxpayer.

[AirportPlanner1]

Absolutely! What has the operational convenience of the airline got to do with it? Only argument would be if they could offer the same level of benefit at a reduced cost to the taxpayer.

I would argue SEN could offer that. I imagine the bulk of pax will be London-bound, so the overall journey should be quicker and SEN has to be a lower cost option. Fees must be relatively astronomical to take a Saab into STN.

I’m also sceptical many people use the EK service, especially as northbound there is a 6+ hour connection.

[mullac30]

Looking at the passenger numbers from the CAA website there were 1438 passengers in all of January ( 23 each way each day??). 21185 passengers for the whole of 2018 which spread over half of the £3.7m equates to a subsidy of £87 per passenger ( each way??) and that's before subsidising the airport itself which looses money .

bb
Isn't the whole point of having a PSO is because the loads mean the route wouldn't normally be viable?

[goldeneye]

I would suspect that most passengers as mentioned above are London O&D so moving to SEN is not really going to make much difference to the passenger experience as travel time in to Liverpool St is roughly the same as from STN.

If SEN is offering better fees than STN then surely this is better for the tax payer.

[southside bobby]

Whilst it is 100% certain that the use of the peak time slots would be hugely productive to STN in pax numbers if the slots were allocated elsewhere (18 then v the average factor 180+ ) might it be the case the slots & costings to the airline are Government controlled as part of PSO obligations.

Regarding EK timings northbound that will change nicely with the start of the second daily UAE 67 from 1.7

The reason for using EK as an illustration is clear however as the DND operator is extremely happy "promoting" their airport with EK/DXB & worldwide connections thru STN so therefore if a change of airport in the South is to be considered a better connector over STN would be LHR with multitudes of the same possibilities.

My contribution was essentially STN v SEN & that Southend brings nothing extra to the table.

[virginblue]

The Dundee PSO has existed long before any EK flights to STN, so it was never intended to provide longhaul connections in the first place (remember that when the London route was operated on a purely commercial basis by Suckling/Scot Airways, it went into LCY). Obviously the primary purpose of the route is to provide a connection to the UK capital. If connections were of any real importance, the PSO tender would have specified a gateway better suited for that. So I really don't see a reason why not to move to SEN. For a short domestic flight, SEN would be a better travel experience anyway as time required at the airport for getting through the terminal, check-in and security and onwards to the gate area would be much shorter at departure and on arrival it would be a matter of five minutes from the aircraft to the train station.

As for "the PSO is not for the airline" - it is a tender and if Loganair feels fit to submit a bid for SEN that is cheaper than for STN, it would reduce the subsidy required. Unless there are compelling reasons why public money should be spent on a more expensive STN link, it would be a non-brainer to go for SEN. And I don't feel that allowing a few people a connection to a Ryanair flight for a tenner or to do a two-stop-connection on EK from Dundee instead of a one-stop connection from EDI, is such a compelling reason. Plus, unless there are other bidders (which apparently has not been the case for quite a few UK PSOs recently due to a lack of regional airlines). Loganair would be free anyway to only bid for a SEN route as the London gateway in those PSO tenders is never specified.

[southside bobby]

The history of Dundee-London is a given of course.

Again I mention EK only to illustrate the kudos thus enabled for DND marketing.

Attitudes & expectations do change too of course.

Many cities in the UK are keen again to promote themselves with hoped "prestigious" connections to LHR.

I wonder why the NQY PSO is switched to LHR certainly for connections.

No problem LOG removing to SEN though I would still regard it as ultimately inhibiting for the passenger when other more attractive options for Dundee are available.

Ask Lorraine is she is happy if so then we all are.

[AirportPlanner1]

6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound.
Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded.

I get the impression loads are really variable...random, possibly. On the foggy midweek morning I referenced above there were at least 15 waiting to go northbound. Also perhaps 25 northbound am on a Bank Hol which I found surprising (although only a handful got off the inbound). I’ve seen 20-odd a couple of times northbound in the evening which seems more normal and to be expected.

Sadly I have no cause to use the route.

[virginblue]

I wonder why the NQY PSO is switched to LHR certainly for connections.

No problem LOG removing to SEN though I would still regard it as ultimately inhibiting for the passenger when other more attractive options for Dundee are available

The difference is from my point of view that Loganair is building up a sizeable operation at SEN whereas Flybe's NQY service is the only remaining BE route at LGW. Consolidating at LHR therefore makes sense for BE, particularly if BE needs to grandfather slots there.

[southside bobby]

I acknowledge that for LOG it may be a good option for themselves if the new SEN routes become successful...(that discussion not for here)

Good point perhaps though regarding BE & grandfather rights at LHR.

Has that been proved though that PSO grants those rights?

My question regarding slots for DND at STN at peak times & associated landing charges too being perhaps protected by Government & not endangered by commercial ops remains unanswered too.

[virginblue]

Not sure where Flybe's slots for NQY come from (GCI is operated with ex Cobalt Air slots). Just tried to find something out about it and found an article from the Independent that they were part of the IAG/BD merger remedy slots portfolio. Straightforward use of such slots is unlikely though, as those slots are route specific and NQY and GCI are none of the handful of routes that are covered. However, the FT mentioned in an article that the government allowed Flybe to "repurpose" its existing slots at Heathrow, which suggests that the slots are indeed former remedy slots (but probably not those for ABZ and LHR as those routes continue to be operated by BE). Before, my suspicion was that BE was babysitting/grandfathering slots for VS, but this does not appear to be the case. If they are using remedy slots, the interesting question is what owuld happen if an airline shows up that intends to serve one of the orutes for which they were designated as remedy slots in 2012 (e.g. Cairo, Riyadh, Nice).

As for PSOs at LHR, I don't think there is currently a mechanism for automatic access to LHR if the route is operated under a PSO scheme. Making slots available for PSOs in the future has been used as a bait by the airport in the discussion about an expansion of LHR, though.

[southside bobby]

Thanks for the research & reply & agree finding answers does appears rather opaque.

UK cities & airports hoping for access at some stage to LHR particularly with the 3rd R/W have as you state been baited by the airport & authorities to enhance their (LHR`s) credentials.

Not sure if those slots are to be PSO or normal commercial ops granted/allocated under coercion from Government.

[BAladdy]

The slots for BE’s NQY Service are former remedy slots. This extract from the original IAG / bmi remedy explains why they were allocated them:

"Where a New Air Services Provider has operated Competitive Air Service on two or more Identified City Pairs using Slots in accordance with these Commitments for at least two (2) consecutive IATA seasons, it shall be entitled to apply for any Slots still available… to operate Frequencies on any European Short-haul City Pair…”

So once Flybe had done one summer and one winter on LHR-ABZ and -EDI, it had access to the remaining remedy slots to use for European routes of there choosing - and it chose Newquay.

The slots were held by IAG, which had to give up for them

[davidjohnson6]

Flew from Dundee to Stansted and all pax were asked to fill in a survey form which mentioned there was to be a new round of bidding later this year for the route

I had thought the main source for the PSO money was to end in spring 2019, and the emergency funds from Dundee council would expire in late October 2019

Has a fresh source of funds been found, or is Loganair just trying to encourage somebody to find funds ?

The most obvious airlines to fly this route (even if UK stays in the EU) are presumably Eastern or Loganair... seems unlikely many other airlines with aircraft with 30-40 seats would be particularly interested unless money was significantly increased

[VickersVicount]

Apart from Saab and ATR what else could operate in a practical fashion from Dundee?

[davidjohnson6]

Is Dundee's runway long enough for a J41 ?

[EGPO]

Was mentioned on an old Dundee threadbthatban RJ100 would make it , as there had been consideration by some travel operator , to launch ' Med flights, with a Southbound fuel stop at for example Southampton .

I believe the E170, has a short field package , plus they all have a rapid climb rate , so at a push perhaps an E170 .

Pity Eastern sold theirs, A couple of Sun routes if doable from Dundee , would probably sell

[goldeneye]

A Palma flight operated in the mid 90’s on a 146 of Palmair/Flightline. Prices were pretty good for the time but it didn’t really sell that well. So with FR, EZY, LS etc offering much cheaper options from EDI etc then very unlikely there will be Med Routes.

[Fly757X]

Is Dundee's runway long enough for a J41 ?
I would assume so, DH8Ds have operated in over the last few years a long with AT42s.

[fjencl]

Do we think that Eastern Airways could be a possible operator here this year then ………..

[rhutch28]

Don't think so, don't think eastern will be about much longer

[fjencl]

Airlines are being invited to bid for the right to run Dundee’s flight route to London.

A new 24-month contract has been put out to tender by Dundee City Council, seeking an operator for a twice-daily weekday flight as well as a single return service to and from the capital on a Sunday.

According to the contract, London is defined as “any airport within a 60-minute rail journey from/to a London Zone 1 station and designated as London according to IATA city code”.

It means flights to London from Dundee could potentially switch from Stansted to airports such as Luton or Southend, should the winning bidder chose to redirect the route.

Tenders for consideration need to be submitted by June 26.

The invitation for airlines to provide a twice-daily connection between Dundee and London comes only a month after the Tele revealed that air links between the two cities could be set for a shake-up, after it emerged funding for the current Stansted route is only to be available until later this year.

The local authority has pledged £145,000 to support the route as part of a public service obligation (PSO) package agreed between itself, the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland and route operator Loganair.

It also comes a week after Loganair announced it would not be introducing its new fleet of planes to the Dundee to Stansted route.

Alison Henderson, chief executive of Dundee and Angus Chamber of Commerce, said the invitation for the tenders was a sign that there was a commitment to the Dundee-London route.

Ms Henderson said: “This is an important route for tourism and business, linking Dundee not only with London but hopefully with an airport that connects to other airports outwith the UK.

“Ideally we would like to see flights from Dundee to an airport that provides a central onward hub elsewhere out of the UK.

“Air travel is hugely important both for business and tourism in Dundee.

“Dundee businesses are very keen to see regular flights to London and would welcome flights to an airport hub.

“We are hoping for the right flights, to the right locations at the right price to be put in place as quickly as possible.”

Dundee City Council and airport operators Highlands and Islands Airports Limited were approached for comment but had not responded at the time of going to press.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/airlines-given-chance-to-bid-for-contract-for-flights-between-dundee-and-london/

[AirportPlanner1]

Chances of this going somewhere other than STN or SEN are remote, unless Virgin have some more LHR slots they need BE to fill. It offers Logan a chance to consolidate their network at SEN should it choose to do so. If Stobart go for it they can technically satisfy the connection criteria as they could offer through tickets to Groningen and Rennes!

[southside bobby]

Just ask Lorraine.

[fjencl]

Tenders for consideration need to be submitted by June 26.

Will it be Loganair again.

Not long to wait until we find out i guess.........

[VickersVicount]

Will be months and after summer break

[BAladdy]

LCY possibly back in the running for the PSO service?

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/london-city-launches-bid-to-secure-direct-flights-to-and-from-dundee/

The article states the tender process ends on the 17th July. Does anyone know when the Outcome is expected to be announced and when the new PSO contract will start?

Also notice Sumburgh is being shown as a destination from DND on LM’s site however no flights available to book. Possibly a future new destination?

[davidjohnson6]

The Loganair thread is getting rather Dundee focussed so I'm posting here in response to existing comments

I ask in good faith - what is the purpose of the Dundee-London PSO subsidy ? What are the objectives of Dundee council and/or the Scottish Govt in paying this money ?
I can think of several possible reasons for spending the public cash but I don't know which is more (or less) important. What do the residents of Dundee seek from the air route ?
Until we understand these objectives, any debate about possibly moving the route from STN to another London-area airport is somewhat arbitrary

[fjencl]

With the announcement of the PSO from LDY - SEN announced to Loganair, it must be due soon the PSO announcement from DND to London route.

[CabinCrewe]

Given they are two distinct and separate country governments, I'm not sure there is an automatic chronology to follow one announcement immediately after the other?

[virginblue]

According to this, the tender process ended on July 17, 2019:

https://media.londoncityairport.com/london-city-airport-hopes-to-add-to-domestic-connectivity-offer-by-welcoming-back-dundee-service/

How long does it usually take before a decision? Given the lack of regional airlines nowadays, they will be luck if they have a choice and are not stuck, like for the Coll/Colonsay/Tiree-PSO, with just one bidder asking for more money than on offer....

As per the article, intensive lobbying, however, to move it to LCY. Not really sure how the stakeholders want to lure Loganair as the bidder other than with a truckload of cash. The airports, councils etc. can wish as much as they want, if the tender does not call for a LCY route, there is little they can do other than incentivizing a LCY service.

[ld0595]

In the additional documents section on the Public Contracts Scotland website (https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR352643), the ITT document notes that the evaluation was due to be completed on 21st August, notification of outcome on the 23rd August and contract award to be 2nd September. I suspect we'll know within the next two weeks.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if the service switched to Southend.

[NorthSouth]

Better make a start on the runway extension then...

[SealinkBF]

It would make sense for Loganair. And Southend is a much nicer airport overall. Mainly because it is smaller!

Might even see LM and BE bury the hatchet and cooperate again on connections.

[inOban]

But rather easier into Dublin....

[Plane mad 134]

Oh sorry muddled up there meant Dublin😂

[ld0595]

So the PSO is due to start next week but still no word on who won the tender.

Flights beyond next week are still bookable to STN on the Loganair website, but surely we must have an announcement soon...! :confused:

[VickersVicount]

Its Loganair and to STN, PSO contract for another year

[BA318]

According to the LCY W19 start of season report, Loganair have been given slots for a Dundee service 11x weekly starting from Feb 2020. https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LCY-W19-start-of-season-report.pdf

[tartan 201]

"Flights between Dundee and London are set to shift to a new destination in the capital.

The Courier understands planes will take off and land at London City Airport, rather than London Stansted at present.

Services between the cities will continue to be operated by Loganair"

"Loganair said it would be increasing the size of plane on the route from a 33-seater to a 48-seater"

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/1045671/flights-between-dundee-and-london-set-to-shift-to-new-destination-in-the-capital/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Plane mad 134]

Its also being reported that Dundee-Belfast City will be annouced by Loganair tommorow as well.

[mwm991]

Good news. The Dundee/Angus/Perthshire/North Fife catchment is capable of sustaining more than just a London flight, in my opinion, time will tell I suppose. The old "use it or lose it".

[ld0595]

Plane mad

Where is this being reported? Would be great if true.

[Plane mad 134]

Evening Telegraph are reporting it.

[goldeneye]

Confirmed now by Loganair that London will move to LCY and they will start flights to BHD.

https://www.loganair.co.uk/our-story/latest-news/2019/new-services-from-dundee-airport

[Breathe]

BHD could be a shrewd move by Loganair, as the press release states, there a lot of Northern Irish students studying in Dundee.

[ld0595]

I really think this is great news for Dundee. LCY is a far better airport for business traffic and there are a huge number of NI students which hopefully should use the service to Belfast. Hopefully we'll see a reinstatement of the Amsterdam or Manchester service in the long term, but I don't think Loganair would be the right carrier unless there were connections - particularly for long haul.

[mullac30]

They interline with KLM so there shouldn't be a problem with them operating AMS in terms of connections, the real problem for them would be acquiring slots.

[DB6]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x213/1c16e74c_a2be_4ee4_8f1f_f43264a35548_5d9109f08b94a4da729de40 f26927ec848be97e3.jpeg
Loganair’s ATR 42-500 arriving from London City this evening.
Good to see the route getting underway again.

[DUB19]

BHD appears to be pushed back to October 25th.

[DB6]

Dundee - Belfast City bookable from Friday 18 Sept 20.

[matkat]

flew over my house last night (Balmullo) good to see this route back as used it a lot before.

[edi_local]

ld0595

DND has had BHD before with flybe, but the prices were always pretty high way out of the reach of most students who made us of lower cost flights from GLA/EDI/PIK to Ireland. Hopefully Loganair can keep the costs low enough to make the route viable, same with LCY, although if that's business oriented it shouldn't be much of an issue.

I'd like to see AMS back again, Flybe were an absolute disgrace the way they dropped the route after so much faffing about with it. Loganair should have a serious look at the route as it was popular the last time and as things calm down with covid restrictions, they could make a success of it, especially if they can use it as a KLM feeder.

[Cloud1]

BHD was still operated by Loganair wasn’t it just under the Flybe codeshare. AMS was scrapped for safety reasons to my knowledge - too many light aircraft flying around in what I believe was uncontrolled airspace and the Q400 was fairly big for DND. Not entirely Flybe’s fault and I don’t know how honest they would have been allowed to be in the circumstances.

[Startledgrapefruit]

Flywhoosh also had a stab at it in the ATR

[edi_local]

Cloud1

I would blame Flybe for not doing research into the airport before committing to the route. That aside, other aircraft of similar size to the dash 8 have operated in and out of Dundee for years and continue to do so, only Flybe seemed to have an issue with light aircraft. I do lay the Blame at their feet to be honest.

[GayFriendly]

Am surprised no one has mentioned BHX. Route performed well when flown by Loganair for Flybe. Think it would still work given the reduction in frequency and seats on BHX-EDI and ABZ after the Flybe collapse. Maybe Loganair don't want to dilute their ABZ route in this Covid world, demand was very different when BE flew all three but in long term BHX-DND could work very well.

[SeanM1997]

Loganair launches its Dundee - Belfast City route today (18 September 2020). Initially the route will operate 2x weekly with flights on Fridays and Sundays. In Summer 2021, the route will increase to 4x weekly flights with Monday and Thursday rotations added.

[fjencl]

Are the two Dornier Do328's still stored here and if so are they still for sale ?

If they are still here, seems like they have been here for a long time now.

[Fly757X]

They are indeed still at DND and remain for sale as far as I'm aware.

[fjencl]

When does the PSO on the DND - London come up for renewal again.....?

[Alteagod]

Is the DND BHD route not under some sort of PSO or support scheme as well?

[virginblue]

October 2023 if option for extension is exercised in October 2021.

[fjencl]

Many thanks.

[ld0595]

Positive news this morning - the London City service will be extended to Sumburgh from 9th May 2022 on Mondays and Thursdays.

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2021/09/08/new-sumburgh-to-dundee-flight-will-offer-one-stop-service-to-london/

[ld0595]

Looks like London flights are switching to Heathrow from 6th May.

[fjencl]

Tender for Dundee Airport to London Air Services Public Service Obligation has come up for tender again. Closing date is 7th August 2023

[VickersVicount]

Tender for Dundee Airport to London Air Services Public Service Obligation has come up for tender again. Closing date is 7th August 2023
These tenders seem never ending. If its not broke just let it run and save expense snd paperwork. SG are quick enough to withdraw contracts when they don't like things #Scotrail #Sleeper

[SWBKCB]

It isn't Scottish Government, it's Dundee City Council

Tendering isn't optional, it's a legal requirement.

[Asturias56]

It isn't Scottish Government, it's Dundee City Council

Tendering isn't optional, it's a legal requirement.

yes - its set out in legistlation - over £ x value you have to get (or try and get) three tenders - it's to stop Councillor Jones's mate have a life-long income

[fjencl]

Surely there can't be many operators left in the market to run the Dundee to London flights with the size of aircraft required.
Seems to be the same operator doing this PSO every time its newly awarded.

[Alteagod]

I wonder if that's the real reason that BHD is being canned.

[Saabdriver1]

DND-BHD getting hit with cheap fares and a choice of what colour aeroplane you want to fly on from EDI to BFS and BHD. It’s down to two days a week so might as well improve the services starting at LHR and running north via DND which seem to be doing quite well.

[inOban]

Where's the Loganair thread? Anyway they've announced that the summer through flights to Shetland from London via Dundee will operate 3 times a week next summer, up from 2.

[fjencl]

Has the announcement been made yet, as to which airline has been selected to operate the PSO flights from Dundee to London.........?????

[Sotonsean]

Has the announcement been made yet, as to which airline has been selected to operate the PSO flights from Dundee to London.........?????

Isn't it a foregone conclusion that Loganair will continue to operate the PSO flights between Dundee and London 🤔

If not, then I can't see any other airline operating it.

[fjencl]

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions (https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-courier-advertiser-angus-and-the-mearns-edition/20230920/281556590436090)

£6.2m of taxpayers' cash to subsidise Dundee to London flights (thecourier.co.uk) (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/business-environment/business/4740118/dundee-to-london-flights-subsidies/)

[jmdavies86]

If not, then I can't see any other airline operating it.

The only other airline might be Eastern Airways; they currently operate the PSO service on the WIC-ABZ route.

[fjencl]

Referral of the proposed subsidy to Loganair Limited by Dundee City Council - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/referral-of-the-proposed-subsidy-to-loganair-limited-by-dundee-city-council))

[SWBKCB]

As they voted for Dundee City Council, they must be happy.

[Pain in the R's]

So what is the subsidy per passenger carried then?

[davidjohnson6]

From May 2023 to July 2023 to/from Heathrow there have been an average of 2590 pax per month - that's arriving plus departing pax. Assuming numbers continue at this level, and rounding to the nearest pound, that gives a subsidy of £100 per passenger flying one way or £200 for a round trip.
An off-peak train fare from Dundee to London costs £ 96.40. There are typically 2 trains per hour from Dundee to each of Aberdeen and Edinburgh

[Asturias56]

Not sustainable - well outside of Scotland -I'd have thought

[NorthSouth]

From May 2023 to July 2023 to/from Heathrow there have been an average of 2590 pax per month - that's arriving plus departing pax. Assuming numbers continue at this level, and rounding to the nearest pound, that gives a subsidy of £100 per passenger flying one way or £200 for a round trip.
An off-peak train fare from Dundee to London costs £ 96.40. There are typically 2 trains per hour from Dundee to each of Aberdeen and EdinburghSurely it’s £200 per passenger i.e. per single journey? £6.2m divided by c.31,000 pax a year. I wonder if the privileged 25 or so people on each flight have any idea how much they’re sucking the taxpayer?
NS

[NorthSouth]

Ah just spotted that the £6.2m is over 2 years, hence £100 per pax. Cheap!

[willy wombat]

Surely it’s £200 per passenger i.e. per single journey? £6.2m divided by c.31,000 pax a year. I wonder if the privileged 25 or so people on each flight have any idea how much they’re sucking the taxpayer?
NS
I guess the question is whether the Dundee area gets more than £6.2 million value (inward investment or whatever) by having a direct air link to London. I haven't got a clue as to whether that is the case.

[SealinkBF]

From May 2023 to July 2023 to/from Heathrow there have been an average of 2590 pax per month - that's arriving plus departing pax. Assuming numbers continue at this level, and rounding to the nearest pound, that gives a subsidy of £100 per passenger flying one way or £200 for a round trip.
An off-peak train fare from Dundee to London costs £ 96.40. There are typically 2 trains per hour from Dundee to each of Aberdeen and Edinburgh

I use LNER from KGX to INV and the seats in standard are so uncomfortable. So I always compare airfares to LNER First Class which are marginally better (with decent food usually) for an 8 hr journey.

[fjencl]

Just wondering if the 2 stored Loganair Dornier 328's are still at DND or have they now gone to new owners.

[goldeneye]

Just wondering if the 2 stored Loganair Dornier 328's are still at DND or have they now gone to new owners.

they are still at DND, but as per my post on the LM thread, Jethros is stating deregistered from UK register and onwards to German register. Not sure if they will fly out or will be broken up.

[Saabdriver1]

They're going to fly out.

[jmdavies86]

Wonder if they're heading to Deutsche Aircraft at Oberpfaffenhofen...?!

[Link Kilo]

Future of Dundee to Heathrow airport flights secured as Loganair awarded multi-million pound contract

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4820792/dundee-heathrow-flights-secured-loganair-awarded-contract/

[Saabdriver1]

One of the two Dornier 328s in long-term storage at Dundee finally left on Saturday - and flew out under its own steam, which I think most thought we'd never see! Second likely to be a few weeks away from departure, I gather.

[jmdavies86]

One of the two Dornier 328s in long-term storage at Dundee finally left on Saturday - and flew out under its own steam, which I think most thought we'd never see!

D-CDAJ (previously G-BYHG) was the aircraft - as I guessed, they're both heading to Deutsche Aircraft over at Oberpfaffenhofen.