Air Asia returns to Perth

[CONSO]

AirAsia flight returns to Perth after mid-air scare - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-41631384)
AirAsia flight returns to Perth after mid-air scare




An AirAsia Indonesia flight has been forced to turn back to Australia after pilots were alerted to a possible loss of cabin pressure, airport officials say.
Flight QZ535, bound for the Indonesian island of Bali, changed course about 25 minutes after take-off on Sunday.
The Airbus A320, carrying 151 people, landed safely at Perth Airport.
AirAsia said the flight experienced a "technical issue". Australian media said it had appeared to lose altitude.
"We were all pretty much saying goodbye to each other. It was really upsetting," one passenger told the local Nine network (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/10/15/19/16/air-asia-flight-forced-to-turn-back-after-terrifying-midair-emergency).
A video taken on the plane, broadcast by local media, shows oxygen masks hanging from the ceiling and one person shouting "passengers get down, passengers get down".



Goes on

[hoss183]

I think the difference is the following (quote BBC News)
A video taken on the plane, broadcast by local media, shows oxygen masks hanging from the ceiling and one person shouting "passengers get down, passengers get down".
Another passenger, Claire Askew, told the Seven network that "panic was escalated" by airline staff who were screaming and appeared to be in tears.

CC not managing and worse escalating a situation they should be trained for, is not good.

[RAT 5]

And no mention, yet, of 'An Emergency Landing'. Have all the journo's gone to sleep?

[MD83FO]

passengers on interview complain they never heard from the captain until it was over, and that there was no flow of oxygen.

I think when pax hear the words over the PA "emergency descent" most of them think they're gonna die

I also think that when the masks drop they don't realize the have to pull them down to activate the generator.

can the mask be worn with the pin still in the generator?

[Gauges and Dials]

SOP for depressurization is not "Cabin crew scream and wail, and shout 'passengers get down.' "

What is 'passengers get down' even supposed to mean, anyhow?

[Andrewgr2]

What's this 'activate the generator' about. As SLF that listens to the briefings, I'd always assumed that pulling the mask down would remove a kink in the pipe designed to restrict oxygen flow to unused masks and that any oxygen generator or bottles would be activated automatically when the masks dropped. Am I wrong?

[Dorf]

Pulling the mask down starts a chemical reaction in the Passenger Service Unit over your head that supplies 10 minutes of oxygen to the four masks at that station. There are no oxygen bottles supplying passenger oxygen, with the exception of portable bottles for medical use.

[arketip]

Passengers believe that there is no oxygen flow because they expect the mask bag to inflate.

[cappt]

The action of the mask dropping does not start the flow of oxygen. The PAX must pull down on the mask to remove the pin, that action starts the chemical reaction. The mask will not inflate initially.

It sounds like some cabin crew are not well trained and had no idea of what was happening. The "get down" command sound like a brace for impact command?
At my airline the Captain will make an announcement once established in the descent.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback and we have to remember emergencies are never neat and tidy, even in training when you know it's coming.

[Herod]

The quote is a "person" saying "passengers get down" No mention that it is the cabin crew.

[Eutychus]

...second-language (or misheard) English in stressful situation for "passengers: sit down"?

[Car RAMROD]

Anyone see the video where someone was wearing the mask just over their mouth (and chin) rather than over the nose and mouth?

Now there's someone who paid attention during the safety brief!

[Chrome]

If this was due decompression, pilots don't have the time to communicate with the passengers. What is important is to get the aircraft to descend to a safe level as soon as possible.

The cabin crew however were either not trained properly or forgot the correct shout command which is in the lines of grab mask, fasten seatbelts, breathe normally. 'Passengers get down!' does not achieve anything nor is it a requirement. Wear the mask and continue watching the movie you downloaded to your laptop.

[RAT 5]

I wonder how many people believe, in their panic, that they will be able to 'sense' a flow of O2? It has no smell and no sensation. The little green flow indicator is it; and that's too complicated for pax to know about.

[SLFandProud]

I'm sure that many do, and they probably expect the bag to immediately inflate and presume there's no flow if it doesn't.

At least some airline safety briefings do specifically call out words to the effect of "the bag may not inflate but oxygen is still flowing", but certainly not all. And who pays attention to the safety briefing anyway..?*

* Actually, I do; I take about 80 flights a year but I still pay attention and have a quick look at the safety card. The former out of courtesy to the cabin crew as much as anything, the latter to remind me of some of the peculiarities of the type (if this plane has overwing slides or expects you to slide down the flaps, if all the exits are usable in a water landing or if the rear ones need to stay closed for bouancy, that sort of thing.) Not that it's information I ever hope to need...

[Capn Bloggs]

I think when pax hear the words over the PA "emergency descent" most of them think they're gonna die
I agree. What is the point of that PA?

[mayam13]

When cabin pressure fails, the pilots have to wear their Quick Donning Masks as a first step, then ask the cabin crew to ensure passengers wear their masks and then effect a controlled descent without panic. The flying crew shall wear the masks as a first step, to prevent TUC (time of usefull consciousness) playing tricks, which is only 2 to 3 minutes at heights. .

[Gauges and Dials]

At FL400 it is 15 to 20 seconds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness

[givemewings]

I agree. What is the point of that PA?

So that the hostie who is not strapped in has a half second to grab something before she goes weightless or tumbling down the cabin. Serious injuries ate possible in an emergency descent.

And respectfully, if you don't work for Air Asia then you won't be able to say what the "correct" commands are.

"Get down" was probably at the point of final appriach- the only thin I noticed in the video was someone being shouted to sit down and fasten seat belt (and some d1ckhead too busy filming to wear the mask properly)

[givemewings]

Also the clip of the guy in the mask is to the trained eye clearly AFTER they've leveled off- so by that time all ye crew would be doing is waiting for further PAs and telling anyone not compliant to.... "fasten your seat belt!" (Which is what they did)

[JohnMcGhie]

Now we are all agreed that passengers are full of it, and their airline maybe not universally approved of, has anyone had time to find out what was "wrong" with the aircraft?

Enquiring minds...

[wongsuzie]

Indo or Malaysian CC.

"Get down" translate as sit down.

[mr did]

Another Indonesian LCC incident, is anyone actually surprised apart from the dumb asses who paid $10 instead of a proper airfare to cover the actual cost of operating a well maintained and operated aircraft.

At least this one didn't end up in the water...

[ExSp33db1rd]

.......has anyone had time to find out what was "wrong" with the aircraft?


Why let facts ruin a good story ?

[dabz]

So that the hostie who is not strapped in has a half second to grab something before she goes weightless or tumbling down the cabin. Serious injuries ate possible in an emergency descent.

Pulling for open descent with the speedbrake out in an Airbus doesn't make any one go weightless.

[givemewings]

It actually can for a second... might not seem much but enough to catch you off guard especially if your hands are full and conditions aren't smooth.

I only know because I've experienced it first hand on a steep descent (wasn't even an emergency descent) I was down the back, flight had been a little rough due to the hot weather and when the descent began all four of us who were in that spot lifted off the floor for a fraction of a second.

You guys up the front don't feel it the same as people standing up down the back.

[OldLurker]

Pulling for open descent with the speedbrake out in an Airbus doesn't make any one go weightless.(1) Interesting. Why not? Intuitively I'd have expected a few moments of low G in a quick transition from cruise to steep descent. Do the Airbus electronics manage the descent in such a way as to prevent "weightlesness"?

(2) Is it different on non-Airbus types?

[TURIN]

I thought in an emergency descent the a/c always maintained positive G by rolling/pulling over.

I watched a tv program about the UKs RAE and they showed the manoeuvre using a BAC 1-11.


I am not a pilot. :ok:

[Gauges and Dials]

I wonder how many people believe, in their panic, that they will be able to 'sense' a flow of O2? It has no smell and no sensation. The little green flow indicator is it; and that's too complicated for pax to know about.

It's easy to tell if the O2 is flowing: If you're conscious, it's flowing! :8

[Gauges and Dials]

The quote is a "person" saying "passengers get down" No mention that it is the cabin crew.

Audio quality isn't great, but you can definitely hear "get down"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QcZFw0cY7E

[NSEU]

Anyone see the video where someone was wearing the mask just over their mouth (and chin) rather than over the nose and mouth?

My former airline had an automatic PA decompression announcement which instructed passengers on how to wear their masks (i.e. "pull down the mask and put over your nose and mouth and breathe normally").

Having said that, I've only heard these announcements in one language, so there may have been language problems.

[WingNut60]

Audio quality isn't great, but you can definitely hear "get down"


What you can't see is who she is screaming it at or why.
Maybe she was screaming at three passengers who were trying to get their hand carry out of the overhead bins? Couldn't happen? Don't be so sure.

[givemewings]

I've only heard these announcements in one language, so there may have been language problems.


I dunno, if you're computer literate enough to upload a video to youtube I'm pretty sure you've also seen numerous movies where people on a plane don masks.

he was just too eager to be the first on Instahogram to upload it to put his mask on properly...

Totally agree with Wingnut. Most likely the 'get down' was aimed at someone too stupid to sit down

[givemewings]

can the mask be worn with the pin still in the generator?

Yes it can, but it'd be just for decoration.

Maybe if people actually PAID ATTENTION to the safety video they'd know how to use it?

I know, too much to ask.

[WingNut60]

I do think however that it is frequently the case that not enough emphasis or explanation is given to the need and method to start the O2 flow, or the consequences of not doing it correctly.
Mind you, useful information for some, blah blah blah for others.

[Centaurus]

I thought in an emergency descent the a/c always maintained positive G by rolling/pulling over.


To start a rapid (emergency) descent there is no need to roll/pull over. In fact that is a good way to find yourself in an inadvertent unusual attitude which could be fatal if at night or in IMC at that high altitude. Today's airline pilots may be experts on watching or monitoring the automatics fly their aircraft, but probably not crash :E (joke, Joyce) hot at manually flying at high altitude. If they start rolling and pulling while flying manually at high altitude, you can just about guarantee a handling problem which leads to a more serious flight safety event

A gentle push-over straight ahead is all that is needed to start the rapid descent. There may be local ATC rules that require the aircraft to be turned off the air route before starting the emergency descent but not everywhere around the world.

[KingAir1978]

An airplane in flight will ALWAYS rotate around its centre of gravity. Therefore if you push the nose down, the tail will experience a temporary INCREASE in 'local' g... in the front, however, you'll experience a temporary reduction in g-force. All modern airbusses are protected. They won't allow you to go beyond -1 and +2.5 g in clean configuration.

This is way off topic, does anyone know what the matter was with the airplane...

[G-CPTN]

I do think however that it is frequently the case that not enough emphasis or explanation is given to the need and method to start the O2 flow, or the consequences of not doing it correctly.

How many passengers passed out through lack of oxygen?

[WingNut60]

I have no idea. And I'm not sure what you are inferring.
But then, I'm not sure of the real nature of the problem or the extent of the depressurisation, if at all. The descent seems to have been quite leisurely after the first 30 secs of oh- :mad:

How many passengers complained of bleeding ears? Don't know that either.

But I do know that there were complaints of the system not working properly which suggests that:

a) the system was not working properly, or
b) those complaining didn't know what was going on.

I also know that for the non-technically minded (most passengers?), telling them to "pull down sharply and breath normally" may not be enough.
Even the bit about the bag appearing to not inflate seems to be optional these days.
I just think that a little more explanation might help; to allay fears if nothing else. Another 10 secs worth of blurb, that's all.

[G-CPTN]

I was suggesting that, if the passengers did not actuate the oxygen masks then there might have been 'casualties' due to lack of oxygen.

[WingNut60]

I was suggesting that, if the passengers did not actuate the oxygen masks then there might have been 'casualties' due to lack of oxygen.

That would depend on:

a) what the cabin altitude got up to
b) whether the masks did or did not flow oxygen

Neither of which we know

[Musician]

I believe you can get to FL250 within 2 minutes (or FL 100 with 4 minutes), the passengers will not have damage from hypoxia even if they did not don oxygen masks. Perhaps some with heart conditions might be worse off. This would only not be possible if you had explosive decompression and structural damage to the plane, or if the *pilots* failed to use their oxygen masks in time.

[piratepete]

The issue in Malaysia is not the condition of their aircraft, most of which are quite new.The real issues are too rapid expansion, with incomplete DCA oversight of operations (poorly trained or under qualified airline inspectors) and weak airline training departments.

The very things that tend to give pilots problems, like NON PRECISION approaches are not trained properly.A higher focus on on-time performance rather than safety is common.In one recent simulator check session for example, the DCA examiner did no briefing nothing, no questions what so ever, then no debriefing afterwards.This is very very poor in my opinion.

[Sultan Ismail]

I would like to return to these words.
Last night I had the good fortune to watch "Sully", shortly before the aircraft hit the water the Flight Attendant shouted "Get Down", in fact one shout was directly into camera.
The original incident happened and the film made long before Air Asia's return to Perth.
So it's not a language misunderstanding, it's the way it is.

[ManaAdaSystem]

You compare a ditching situation with a decompression?
Sullys crew got it right.

[Chrome]

The issue in Malaysia ...
If you'd care to read before commenting, this was an Indonesia AirAsia flight QZ535.

[piratepete]

Chrome.Yes you are correct, however, having worked in airlines in both countries the country name can be interchangeable within my reply.The over arching issues are the same, just as the airline in question is the same name in either case.I have a lot experiences in both countries to confidently stand by my opinion.Seen it so many times.Will never change.Sad...

[kevleyski]

WA Today has story about plummeting 11m/s

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/plummeting-at-11-metres-a-second-report-reveals-details-of-air-asia-perth-to-bali-flight-20171122-gzqnm4.html

[NiclasB]

(Caution, bugsmasher input:)

11m/s, that's about 2150 fpm. So descending from FL320 to FL100 would take about 10 minutes. Isn't that a rather "mild" emergency descent for an A320? I've seen figures of 1500-1800fpm elsewhere on 'prune for careful descents when suspecting airframe damage.

[mrdeux]

I agree. What is the point of that PA?

It has no real point. Apparently Airbus put the requirement for a PA into the checklist after the Helios 737 accident, so that having seen the masks drop the crew know that the pilots are actually still alive. Utterly pointless waste of effort, at a time when you have much better things to do.

And the next item in the CL is not much better. "Signs on" is, I think, the result of some people being injured in a depressurisation in a test 330, which was pushed quite violently into the descent. There is no reason for the entry to be any different to a normal descent. People will be unstrapped, signs or not. If you spill their drinks, you didn't do it right!

So that the hostie who is not strapped in has a half second to grab something before she goes weightless or tumbling down the cabin. Serious injuries ate possible in an emergency descent.

Why on earth do you need to make someone weightless for the emergency descent entry. There is no reason for it not to be quite gentle. After all the attitude change is only a few degrees.

[Prober]

I only experienced one ‘for real’ emergency descent on a certain 3 engined aircraft, the outer 2 engines of which could use reverse in the air. With Nos 1 & 3 at max reverse and No 2 at idle, the stopwatch timed rate of descent was 22,000 fpm. 11 m/s must have been a very sedate and gentlemanly affair.