Loganair-2

[VickersVicount]

Any guesses on who'll blink first on the GLA-MAN route. Was once 3 times daily single operator and ran half empty, now up to a ridiculous 8 a day. #unsustainable

[The96er]

I'm guessing Loganair - their passenger figures are mostly in single digits and are suffering reliability issues already.

[Flightrider]

I think both have had their moments this week. Flybe had cancellations and big delays earlier in the week too. Jury still out!

[Rob Royston]

Any guesses on who'll blink first on the GLA-MAN route. Was once 3 times daily single operator and ran half empty, now up to a ridiculous 8 a day. #unsustainable

Loganair are only using the S2000 on the five weekday evening flights. They are using the SF340 on the rest of the flights. Between both companies there are ten flights on Tue, Wed & Thu.

[Skipness One Echo]

How did Loganair end up on GLA-MAN (again)? This was a flybe route of their own inherited from the BA CONNECT sale.

[GLAEDI]

Flybe allowed LM to take over the route as the Dash was to big. LM used the S340 or S2000.

[ETOPS]

Skip

I'm a regular on the MAN-GLA-MAN route so have an interest :rolleyes:

It was a Flybe route up until the franchise deal signed with Loganair - the Dash 8 was suddenly deemed "too big" even though loads always seemed reasonable. As GLAEDI mentioned the service dropped to a mix of S2000/SF340 and became less reliable at the same time. Been badly delayed many times.

After Flybe cancelled the franchise we simply expected the route to revert to a Flybe Dash but Loganair decided to put up a fight and continue operating. Thus Flybe were sort of pushed into finding something smaller than the Dash hence the Eastern arrangement with S2000/J41.

Unsustainable in the long run at the frequency level today and single digit loads. 3 pax on an S2000 a couple of days ago.

[ifu05596]

At first Loganair operated these using the Flybe flight numbers (i.e. Loganair planes used on the Flybe route). Then it moved to Loganair flight numbers BE6XXX and the pricing on the route changed so i think it did move from being a Flybe route to a Loganair route (albeit under the Flybe Franchise).

[Mooncrest]

All the while the divorcees fight it out at Manchester, Leeds Bradford remains without its Glasgow connection.

[01475]

This is the world's best opportunity for a chancer to tell both Loganair and Eastern that the other is starting flights to Leeds, Oxford, Gloucester & Shoreham ... and to see what happens :E

[Richard Taylor]

Loganair claims first blood in airline battle | Shetland News (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/15257-loganair-claim-first-blood-in-airline-battle)

Underlining perhaps the futility of it all, & the stupidity of putting a jet on the LSI run.

[SealinkBF]

Loganair claiming overall load of 49 per cent and Flybe 23 per cent.

Significantly, unlike the Ryanair effect, Loganair say the market is not growing despite lower fares.

[01475]

I'll guess that at some point Loganair give up Manchester / DTV / Norwich, Eastern give up the islands, and they both claim victory.

Low fares might grow the market in summer, but not September!

[BAladdy]

The lease on the DOT ATR that has been operating on behalf of Loganair for the last few months ends on 31st October. Loganair will from the 1st to the 14th November lease ATT42 from the GCI based Aurigny to operate the DND-STN route.

Based on the schedule online Loganair will replace the AT4 with a SF3. This is planned to operate from the 15th November and 20th December. The route is then showing as being operated by a D328 from 21st December through to the end of the W17 schedule.

Does anyone know if they are planning to transfer a D328 to operate from DND or are they planning to lease a aircraft to operate from DND?.

The reason I ask is that from what I can see Loganair will require 3 D328’s to operate all the flights scheduled to be op by a D328 between January and late March. Details below.

Monday

1 - NWI-MAN-NWI-EDI-IOM-EDI-NWI (*1)
2 - NWI-EDI-NWI-MAN-NWI-MAN-NWI
3 - DND-STN-DND-STN-DND

Tuesday to Thursday

1 - NWI-MAN-NWI-MAN-NWI-MAN-NWI (*2)
2 - NWI-EDI-NWI-EDI-NWI (*3)
3 - DND-STN-DND-STN-DND (*4)

Friday

1 - NWI-MAN-NWI-MAN-NWI-MAN-NWI (*4)
2 - NWI-EDI-NWI-EDI-NWI (*5)
3 - DND-STN-DND-STN-DND (*4)

Saturday - No D328 operated flights scheduled.

Sunday

1 - NWI-EDI-NWI-MAN-NWI
2 - DND-STN-DND
3 - Aircraft not required

Notes:

*1 - Aircraft arrives from EDI 16:35 no flights scheduled after that
*2 - Aircraft remain on ground in NWI 09:45-14:40
*3 - Aircraft remain on ground in NWI 10:15-17:35
*4 - Aircraft remain on ground in DND 10:35-16:50
*5 - Aircraft on ground in NWI until 13:45

[rhutch28]

Whats happening with G-BYMK its not seen any service for a good few months?

[BAladdy]

WFU 28JUL17. Was flown from DND to Bangor for part out.

Looks like the Aurigny ATR42 being leased from 1st to 14th November is G-HUET

[Skipness One Echo]

Seating chart is for an ATR72 it seems.

[BAladdy]

Can I ask what dates you looked at?. I have checked the seat plan for flights on 6 different days from 1st to 14NOV. I can only see a 48 seat seat plan.

[virginblue]

Aurigny has a surplus ATR42 now that GCI-LCY is axed. Or are they going to replace an ATR72 on their own services with the ATR42 so that an ATR72 will be leased? Quite an capacity overkill...

[Skipness One Echo]

Can I ask what dates you looked at?
3rd and 5th. I am in 18F!

[kirkbymoorside]

Aurigny’s ATR42 has seat row numbering that misses a block of row numbers out mid cabin so the front and rear match the ATR72 if I recall from my last trip on G-HUET.

[Breathe]

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any data on how the flybe v Loganair battle is going so far, regarding loads?

[Morus193]

How are Longanair getting on with seat capacity so far? Any ideas on potential future route expansion?

[EK77WNCL]

They've been campaigning on Facebook for more staff due to expansion at Durham Tess Valley... Whilst simultaneously not getting back to me regarding my application over 2 weeks later.

It'll be interesting to see what they mean by expansion at MME

[GLAEDI]

As with most companies they’ll have closing dates for applications. I’m sure you’ll hear once that date passes and a sift has been completed. Two weeks is nothing to wait on applications to be considered. Is this the first job you have applied for? I know companies that their recruitment process can take 12-18mths to complete.

[EK77WNCL]

Far from the first job I've applied for, and I'm into my 13th month of waiting for updates regarding a different cabin crew job (I've done, and passed the assessments, been offered a job... Just no vacancies/start dates). Currently in the public sector though... I'm slowly learning how the private sector works!

I apologise, I should have been more clear. I thought I would have received an email acknowledging receipt of my application, but I haven't. I fully expected to have to wait weeks or months for a response regarding a interview etc. But I've been having issues with my emails and asked them to let me know that they received it alright.

Alas... Hurry up and wait

[EK77WNCL]

Keeping my fingers well and truly crossed, I think Loganair would actually be my preference out of the ones I've applied for

Working for bigger companies isn't always better

[LGS6753]

EK77WNCL -

Regrettably, most employers these days don't acknowledge applications unless they intend to take them further.

Keep hoping - and best of luck!

[01475]

Currently in the public sector though... I'm slowly learning how the private sector works!

I've been a bean counter in both. It shocked me quite a lot to discover that, on average, the public sector is probably more efficient. We think of it as not being because the things that annoy us are it being efficient for them, not us. Whereas there are private companies that... I don't know. I just don't know...

[EK77WNCL]

I know what you mean, I thought the same, but the NHS has been fantastically efficient throughout, and the private sector has been, actually quite useless!

[Skipness One Echo]

What’s the plan for DND-STN once the Aurigny ATR45 goes back?

[goldeneye]

What’s the plan for DND-STN once the Aurigny ATR45 goes back?

Current plan is to revert to a company Saab 340

[TWS04]

Not sure if I was the only one who missed this but it appears in addition to the NWI-MME-ABZ rotation, there is now also a “direct” NWI-MAN-GLA rotation. Personally haven’t seen this advertised anywhere!

[Gurnard]

ATR42 Lease
G-HUET appears to have an extended lease, now based at NWI rather than DND covering for a Do328.

[sparkie320]

It seems that the remaining two left in the fleet are causing this airline some problem , as they go tech rather a lot, considering their age how much longer can they carry on , being Norwich based we see them parked up, being worked on or the odd engine test
what plans are there for their replacement
G-HUET is with us at the moment covering but that did go tech too

[Gurnard]

All aircraft in the Dornier fleet were inherited from Suckling (a.k.a.Scot) Airways. Both of the remaining two a/c have been for sale for a number of months. A third (G-BYMK) was withdrawn in the summer and flown across the pond to Bangor for part-out. It would appear there is little demand for Do.328s now, thus Loganair have kept the final two a/c going. It would make more economic sense surely to dispose of them and use SF340s or SAAB 2000s for the time being until a suitable replacement type is sourced. The days of the Dornier "fleet" of two are surely numbered.

[Gurnard]

AURIGNY LEASED AIRCRAFT:
Presumably ATR42 G-HUET is u/s at Norwich as ATR72 G-COBO has positioned in from GCI this afternoon and is operating Logan schedules.

[Brutha]

Hi,

I've been having some issues with luggage connections lately: it seems to be connected with Loganair shifting to labels that can only cope with one connection rather than two, as they took the franchise back. But I'm not sure!

I'm wondering if anyone else has been encountering similar problems?

[inOban]

According to routes online, Loganair are releasing additional summer routes today, including services to Bergen from Glasgow and Manchester.

[BAladdy]

Below are a list of the flights released today.

Glasgow to Bergen - 2 x Weekly S2000 service will operate 27MAY-09SEP.
Glasgow to Guernsey - Weekly S2000 service will operate 26MAY-15SEP.
Kirkwall to Fair Isle - 2 x Weekly BN2 service will operate 25MAY-05OCT.
Manchester to Bergen via Inverness - 3 x Weekly ER4 service from 09MAY
Manchester to Kirkwall - 2 x Weekly D328 service will operate from 22JUN-03SEP
Manchester to Stornaway - Weekly SF3 service will operate from 23JUN-01SEP
Manchester to Sumburgh - Weekly S2000 service will operate from 23JUN-01SEP
Norwich to Inverness - 2 x Weekly D328 service will operate 29MAY-03OCT.
Norwich to Isle of Man - 2 x Weekly D328 service will operate 25MAY-10JUN.
Norwich to Jersey - 5 x Weekly D328 service will operate 30APR-08OCT.

[Mike Flynn]

Loganair has axed their Norwich to Durham flights.

“Unfortunately, the Norwich – Durham route wasn’t performing in line with expectations with no signs of improving so we’ve taken the decision to withdraw the service from January 7th”


https://www.loganair.co.uk/loganair-boosts-aberdeen-service-durham-tees-valley-airport/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=december+2017

[TWS04]

Although the NWI-MME has been axed, it appears the MME-ABZ is performing well quoting 66% of aberdeen pax travel with LM. I wonder, if anything, what Eastern may do to try and get some of these passengers back.

[rhutch28]

MAN-GLA flights not bookable after 19th January, is this route ending as well?

Also looks like all the NWI-ABZ flights are going to be codeshare with BMI

[kcockayne]

Loganair are also operating Norwich - Jersey next summer.

[canberra97]

The cessation of GLA to MAN by Loganair has been discussed in great detail over on the Manchester thread if you want to have a look.

[scr1]

Loganair to make a loss

Loganair warns of annual loss after Flybe split - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-42557218)

[chuboy]

Loganair to fly Glasgow-Donegal from 23rd March

https://www.scotsman.com/business/loganair-launches-flights-from-glasgow-to-donegal-1-4661561

[BAladdy]

Loganair have made the following changes for the S18 schedule from EDI.

Benbecula - 3 x weekly service via SYY now no longer available to book

Bergen - 2 x weekly sevice operating via LSI from 26MAY18 to 18AUG18

LM359 EDI 09:30 11:00 LSI 11:30 BGO 13:40 SF3 6
LM359 EDI 12:45 14:15 LSI 14:50 BGO 17:00 SF3 3

LM360 BGO 14:15 14:25 LSI 15:05 EDI 16:30 SF3 6
LM360 BGO 17:50 18:05 LSI 18:50 EDI 20:15 SF3 3

Stornaway - Frequency reduced from 11 to 9 x Weekly for S18. Departure times also changed.

LM341 EDI 09:40 SYY 10:45 SF3 x456
LM341 EDI 13:10 SYY 14:15 SF3 6
LM347 EDI 14:40 SYY 15:45 SF3 x136

LM352 SYY 11:15 EDI 12:20 SF3 124
LM352 SYY 14:45 EDI 15:50 SF3 6
LM358 SYY 16:15 EDI 17:20 SF3 x16

Sumburgh - Frequency increased from up to 18 x Weekly to 25 x Weekly for S18

[Skipness One Echo]

What colours is G-BVVK in now? Did it get the new Loganair livery?

[NickBarnes]

Yes photos I've seen on twitter show full new livery

[BAladdy]

Prior to being painted was G-BVVK the only aircraft still in BE livery or are there still SF3’s to be painted?.

[BAladdy]

Thanks for that info. What about the other all white SF3’s (apart from NZ) and S20’s?. Are LM waiting until they are due a period on maintainence to paint?.

[BAladdy]

There has been a couple of articles about Loganair that have mentioned they plan to simplify there fleet

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/63085-uks-loganair-starts-fleet-simplification-programme

Apart from removing the D328’s, what other ways could they simplify it?.

[DND delivery]

Are there any concrete fleet renewal plans at Loganair?

I recall a conversation with an old colleague last year and she mentioned Loganair were looking at introducing the ATR. However I can't remember if that was actually planned or just a rumour...

[canberra97]

Loganair operated two ATR 42-500 on short term leases in 2017 so I should imagine that the aircraft was definitely a candidate and under evaluation for any future fleet renewal.

The aircraft involved were

LY-DAT (Cityjet)
OY-RUO (Danish Air Transport)

[virginblue]

What else instead of ATRs could they buy for fleet renewal? Nothing on the market. The only choice will be between factory fresh ATR42-600s and second-hand ATR42-500s.

[rhutch28]

canberra97

Didn't they also have G-HUET from Aurigny as well at one point

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes, flew on this DND-STN last year.
I think the ATR42 is the only aircraft small enough and young enough to replace the SF340s and even then is a little large and less robust IMHO.

[Michael S]

LY-DAT is actually DOT which essentially is Danish Air Transport with Lithuanian AOC.

[Michael S]

SF34 is robust but age makes it totally unreliable. AT42 isn’t much less robust but it is way way less troublesome. Even with higher fuel burn it’s cheaper to operate.

[Rob Royston]

They spent quite a bit upgrading their thirteen 340's in 2016 and took on more maintenance staff but time does not stand still.

[mullac30]

I was looking through Google News and I found this interesting article in Dutch, it seems that KLM and Loganair are interested in pursuing a codeshare agreement on KLMs Scottish routes to faciltate growth out of a constrained Schiphol.

I'm not allowed to post links yet, but here is a translation of it: KLM Cityhopper is considering growing further as Schiphol clogs up by placing more seats in its aircraft. The company is also looking for more partners in Europe, says director Warner Rootliep. This is how the Scottish Loganair is now being discussed.

Because the number of flights at home base Schiphol can barely grow due to the growth stop of 500,000 flights, Cityhopper is looking at an increase in the number of seats on board its Embraer 190s.According to Rootliep, the growth stop at Schiphol also has consequences for the development of the Cityhopper network. "We are coming summer season, with the addition of Växjö in Sweden and Nantes in France at 69 destinations, close to our goal of seventy.There is still some stretch in it, but because of the limitations at Schiphol not much more.

To enable the network to grow, the company is looking for regional partners to fill in gaps. "We were approached in Scotland by Loganair, which serves forty small Scottish destinations such as the Shetlands, Wick and Barra. They could very well connect to our flights in Edinburgh and Inverness.

At the end of February a first collaboration was made with the Norwegian Widerøe who, as a code share partner, is able to connect the smallest Scandinavian destinations with the larger airports in Northern Europe that Cityhopper visits to Schiphol.

He also does not exclude code sharing with partners in other parts of Europe. "Only in contrast to our collaborations from the past is our starting point that we always take care of transport to and from Schiphol," says Rootliep.


If you want to find the articule yourself, type in "Loganair KLM" into Google News and there should be a Dutch article by "Zaken Reis".

[goldeneye]

Loganair are to operate flights from Carlisle to Southend, Belfast and Dublin. Flights start in June and go on sale later today.

Southend - 2 x daily
Belfast - Daily
Dublin - Daily

Source (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Airline-which-will-carry-flights-from-Carlisle-Airport-announced-6af43c0f-28f7-4f71-8608-37dc66600007-ds)

[lfc84]

the flights are on the loganair website now

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know the reason for the cancellations and delays that have affected Loganairs flights from NWI over the last couple of days?. I notice that the flights that have operated from NWI over recent days have been operated by a SF3 in place of the usual D328.

Both D328 aircraft seem to have been parked since Tuesday morning, G-BYHG at BOH and G-CCGS in MAN. Have they been withdrawn from service?.

[Plane mad 134]

When do Loganair reveal new flights, and also when does the booking for summer 19 begin?

[Scottie Dog]

Having been involved in travel from 1968-2015 it always brings a smile to my face when I see questions like this.

Summer scheduled use to be released around November of the previous year and Winter in April. Tour operators did not put their Summer holidays on sale until New Year's Day (That was a manic day and of course computers didn't exist).

Now we all want to see timetables year in advance - and even before Slot Controlled airports have had their initial applications approved (Yes I appreciate that some slots will be automatically allocated on a grandfather rights basis).

Sorry about that!!

[Plane mad 134]

Ok thanks for the information

[Gurnard]

Does anyone know the reason for the cancellations and delays that have affected Loganairs flights from NWI over the last couple of days?. I notice that the flights that have operated from NWI over recent days have been operated by a SF3 in place of the usual D328.

Both D328 aircraft seem to have been parked since Tuesday morning, G-BYHG at BOH and G-CCGS in MAN. Have they been withdrawn from service?.

G-CCGS is back in service. G-BYHG at BOH evidently for maintenance.

[ifu05596]

Anyone any idea how to actually book any of the new KLM/Air France interline flights? Doesn’t pick up on the KLM website. Also, what about the easyJet connections at Edinburgh and Inverness,, ‘early 2018’ is nearly over!

[BAladdy]

Anyone any idea how to actually book any of the new KLM/Air France interline flights? Doesn’t pick up on the KLM website. Also, what about the easyJet connections at Edinburgh and Inverness,, ‘early 2018’ is nearly over!

https://mediacentre.easyjet.com/en/stories/12109-easyjet-extends-worldwide-by-easyjet-to-seven-airports-and-adds-new-connections-airline-partners

[Breathe]

Does anyone know what (if any) plans Loganair have for fleet replacements/refurbishments?

[Fly757X]

Does anyone know what (if any) plans Loganair have for fleet replacements/refurbishments?

I read somewhere that the SAAB 2000s are on short term leases and I know that the Do328s are for sale but ultimately nobody wants them, even for parts. I really hope the SAAB 2000s don't leave but ultimately if they do they WILL need replacing with something like AT46s etc. Please don't take my word as law. I just thought I heard the topics in question somewhere from memory.

[Fly757X]

The 2000's are just not financially feasible to keep on going. The plan at least last year is on end of lease they go.
They had been looking into the ATR42 as a fleet replacement.

That's a pity, really like the 2000s and they're finally making an appearance again at LDY (My Local) on a scheduled basis from the 28th of October. When is the lease of them roughly up?

[PapaEchoNovember]

The last I heard, the first 2000 goes back in as little as 6 months time and the last one will be gone in around 18 months time. From an operational point of view the Dornier 328 and SAAB 2000 are a complete disaster. The 2000 is an absolute beast of an aircraft and a perfect tool for the job, but in my opinion, the advantages gained from the suitability of the aircraft for the harsh environment is completely negated by the unreliability of the aircraft. All you have to do is look at the 2000 and 328 reliability, the 328 especially often picks up 2 or 3 hour delays, usually one of the two is Tech or AOG, I can imagine crewing them must be a nightmare, I have heard they are very short on both fleets and this might be the demise of the aircraft prior to the lease or sale of them! The whole fleet desperately needs unifying and the ATR is the only practical solution available.

[PDXCWL45]

The last I heard, the first 2000 goes back in as little as 6 months time and the last one will be gone in around 18 months time. From an operational point of view the Dornier 328 and SAAB 2000 are a complete disaster. The 2000 is an absolute beast of an aircraft and a perfect tool for the job, but in my opinion, the advantages gained from the suitability of the aircraft for the harsh environment is completely negated by the unreliability of the aircraft. All you have to do is look at the 2000 and 328 reliability, the 328 especially often picks up 2 or 3 hour delays, usually one of the two is Tech or AOG, I can imagine crewing them must be a nightmare, I have heard they are very short on both fleets and this might be the demise of the aircraft prior to the lease or sale of them! The whole fleet desperately needs unifying and the ATR is the only practical solution available.

Could they go for Q300s or would they not be suitable for Loganairs ops?

[PapaEchoNovember]

Could they go for Q300s or would they not be suitable for Loganairs ops?

The Q300 is arguably a better option for loganair than the ATR, problem is they don’t make them anymore so they would undoubtedly end up having the same support and maintenance issues as the 340/328/2000 in the future, which I imagine they want to avoid.

I suspect they will be looking at a fleet replacement long term viable future, and the ATR unfortunately is the only one that fits the bill.

The cost of refleeting and retraining the crews is an uneveably task, and I think financially they are bruised after the Flybe debacle. I heard the first ATR was rumoured to be joining the fleet in January this year, to stagger the implementation and get everything ready. I’m also under the impression the ATR is really unpopular with the loganair crews, oil company’s and locals! Difficult situation

[bigjim99]

The AT42 is pretty bomb proof in the crosswind. Not as good as the S2000 but nothing is! AT72 is a great aircraft but gives up the AT42s performance for an increased load

[Fly757X]

The AT42 is pretty bomb proof in the crosswind. Not as good as the S2000 but nothing is! AT72 is a great aircraft but gives up the AT42s performance for an increased load

The ATR42-300s are indeed rocks but the -600 that Stobart recently got to replace EHH & CBK wouldn't even attempt 25+ kts was diverting regularly during its first few weeks at CFN due to 22kts and upwards winds. The old-300s seemed to give it a go in +30 and make it as I always waited in anticipation for them diverting to LDY so I could get pictures of them but that rarely happened, sorry for the anecdote but it would seem ATR have tougher limits of the -600s

[mullac30]

Perhaps they could get their own ERJ145s as a short term replacement of the S2000, seeing as they already have crews trained on them?

[virginblue]

Quote by J. Hinkles in US Airways mag sounds as if the ATR42 is a done deal.

[chuboy]

The ATR42-300s are indeed rocks but the -600 that Stobart recently got to replace EHH & CBK wouldn't even attempt 25+ kts was diverting regularly during its first few weeks at CFN due to 22kts and upwards winds. The old-300s seemed to give it a go in +30 and make it as I always waited in anticipation for them diverting to LDY so I could get pictures of them but that rarely happened, sorry for the anecdote but it would seem ATR have tougher limits of the -600s
Demonstrated crosswind for both versions of the 42 are the same (45 kts), my guess is the company limit in the SOPs was reduced after CBK went off the side of the runway at CFN on one of its famously crosswindy days.

[Fly757X]

Demonstrated crosswind for both versions of the 42 are the same (45 kts), my guess is the company limit in the SOPs was reduced after CBK went off the side of the runway at CFN on one of its famously crosswindy days.

I never even heard of CBK going off at CFN. Would align well, those two sheds are great warriors but that’s a Stobart topic.

[tibbs87]

Although I agree the ATR42 is a good replacement, the 48/50 seater capacity may not be completely filled by passengers, thus a 30 seater would probably be more economical? I suggest that they purchase new Embraer 120 Brasilia's which are still in production if the need arises, they are pretty sturdy aircraft and proven domestic aircraft which would be similar to the current Saab 340 fleet. Another option is the new Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo utility aircraft that have a capacity of 30-40 and are versatile for cargo operations too, not to mention the extraordinary short field performance. Another option for smaller aircraft could be the new 19 seater Cessna 408 SkyCourier for routes to say Campbeltown, Tiree, Benbecula etc?

[Fly757X]

Although I agree the ATR42 is a good replacement, the 48/50 seater capacity may not be completely filled by passengers, thus a 30 seater would probably be more economical? I suggest that they purchase new Embraer 120 Brasilia's which are still in production if the need arises, they are pretty sturdy aircraft and proven domestic aircraft which would be similar to the current Saab 340 fleet. Another option is the new Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo utility aircraft that have a capacity of 30-40 and are versatile for cargo operations too, not to mention the extraordinary short field performance. Another option for smaller aircraft could be the new 19 seater Cessna 408 SkyCourier for routes to say Campbeltown, Tiree, Benbecula etc?

The SB34s are for not replacement in the short term and most (if not all) have received new cabins in the past 3 years. It's more for the SB20s which are penned to go in the next 2-3 years.

[virginblue]

To quote from the above mentioned article:

"The Managing Director aspires to start standardizing the fleet in 2019, with the ATR42 as the selected type to serve all routes besides the islands operations. He is especially concerned about the high costs to keep the Saab 2000s running. "Their maintenance costs are horrific", he said."

I think we can put all speculations about Embraer 120s, DHC8-Q300s, DHC5s etc. to rest.

[tibbs87]

To quote from the above mentioned article:


I think we can put all speculations about Embraer 120s, DHC8-Q300s, DHC5s etc. to rest.

I understand that they want to replace the Saab 2000's with ATR varients, but wasn't there something in the Saab press recently about the withdrawal of aviation support for the Saab 340/2000 by Saab itself? Wouldn't that implicate a greater future cost if it was outsourced to a 3rd party or no party, if none took it up? I think brand new EMB-120's would be totally sustainable, something that TangoAlphad didn't explore out of the options I discussed ;)

[virginblue]

The article I refered to also has a quote that the Saab 2000s are so expensive to maintian that they do not provide any cost advantage over the Saab 340s despite being 1/3 larger. Plus they are in a weight category that makes them rather expensive for a 50 seater when it comes to charges, fees etc. Add to that that their superior speed isn't really needed on Loganair's network. So bring on those ATRs - it will also give Loganair the option to add a few ATR72 depending on future expansion plans.

Islanders are to stay according to the article, Loganair looked at alternatives like the Quest Kodiak or the Caravan, but they lack the performance required around the Orkneys.

[NorthSouth]

Islanders are to stay according to the article, Loganair looked at alternatives like the Quest Kodiak or the Caravan, but they lack the performance required around the Orkneys.And the places to land if it all goes quiet up the front while halfway across the water to Stronsay at 300ft :eek:

[Albert Hall]

I can't think why you would ever be flying at 300ft regardless of how many engines you have. 500 is the transit minimum, I believe.

[VickersVicount]

What do we make of Loganairs suggestion of an (BMI) Embraer hub at GLA serving European destinations?
Didnt they try that many years ago (with 146's and 1-11s), equally inefficient then?
A very good local brand name though (so long as it doesnt divert from what they're good at)
Not exactly first flurry into Europe given theyre currently trying Bergen...
Interesting times, a BRU route ex GLA with reasonable fares and frequency and suitable Star codeshare might work, particularly if the Embraers can still make money. CPH would be the other one I could think of and maybe Paris. FRA unlikely now against LH but maybe take over its half hearted Munich or DUS. MAD a bit of a trek in a tiny Emb
http://shorturl.at/orFNR

[mwm991]

Sounds promising. Would be great for Scotland to have its own legacy airline.

[goldeneye]

Link does not seem to work, but story is - https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/loganair-to-launch-new-european-routes-1-4759063

[ifu05596]

Hope it will be in tartan and not bmi colours!

[cumbrianboy]

@fly757x

The ATR42-600 has exactly the same cross wind limits as the ATR42-320 and this has not changed in recent times at CFN.

the AT46 regularly lands in cross winds of uptown 35kt.

The Reason they divert from CFN at >25kt is because the runway is 1,100m long and only 30m wide and with a non precision approach on both ends (with one being a dodgy NDB) it has short and narrow limitations which are standard ...

[01475]

European routes from Glasgow sound interesting. But is Glasgow ready for Bmi style fares to the continent, likely in competition with cheaper fares from Edinburgh?

Also, and tragically, the better marketing partner for such routes would probably have been flyBe :-(

[Alteagod]

It does seem a big ask especially with all the competition. The fares will be key to this working but at least they are trying

[Fly757X]

@fly757x

The ATR42-600 has exactly the same cross wind limits as the ATR42-320 and this has not changed in recent times at CFN.

the AT46 regularly lands in cross winds of uptown 35kt.

The Reason they divert from CFN at >25kt is because the runway is 1,100m long and only 30m wide and with a non precision approach on both ends (with one being a dodgy NDB) it has short and narrow limitations which are standard ...

Cheers mate, I was just comparing the older -300s to the -600s taking into consideration the narrower runway at CFN using what I had seen as a spotter from experience. They also have a Localiser for 21 at CFN btw.

[mwm991]

European routes from Glasgow sound interesting. But is Glasgow ready for Bmi style fares to the continent, likely in competition with cheaper fares from Edinburgh?

Also, and tragically, the better marketing partner for such routes would probably have been flyBe :-(
If they have regular service, codeshare hub access and it can make Glasgow as a hub of sorts itself, then maybe.

I'd have more concern about these routes as standalone P2P stuff.

[4567]

I’d imagine the links with Lufthansa and star alliance through BMI will be used as much as possible. As has been said the fares will be key but BRS has managed to sustain BMI well so hopefully the same can be done for Loganair.

[TartinTon]

I’d imagine the links with Lufthansa and star alliance through BMI will be used as much as possible. As has been said the fares will be key but BRS has managed to sustain BMI well so hopefully the same can be done for Loganair.
Different AOCs and different companies. They won't be piggybacking on bmi's LH relationship.

[CabinCrewe]

Just because theyre on different AOCs does not mean BMIs links with LH cannot be taken advantage of.

[PapaEchoNovember]

Scottish operator Loganair has reported a pre-tax loss of £8.93m for the year to March 2018.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-44633581

Seems like quite a risky maneuver to dip their toes into the European market using 145's given these losses. Probably also explains the delay in the new ATR aircraft.

[edi_local]

Was there not always inevitably going to be a loss in the first year they went solo?

[CabinCrewe]

Was there not always inevitably going to be a loss in the first year they went solo?

Yes, most of the losses were predicted
And has virtually nothing to do with consideration of ATR / fleet replacement.

[01475]

Given the nature of the battle with Eastern that they got into I'm surprised it's not worse! (Suspect it is for Eastern...)

[PapaEchoNovember]

Yes, most of the losses were predicted
And has virtually nothing to do with consideration of ATR / fleet replacement.

Surely that finical hit must delay the fleet renewal plans, the first ATR was due to arrive in winter 17/18.

[virginblue]

Given the nature of the battle with Eastern that they got into I'm surprised it's not worse! (Suspect it is for Eastern...)

It is all explained in the article:Without the non-recurring items associated with the airline's former partner, Loganair would have recorded an underlying pre-tax profit of £2.95m. After the break-up with Flybe, Loganair spent £2.98m re-establishing its own brand and back-office functions. Delays in code-sharing agreements with new business partners cost a further £2.09m. But the biggest loss has been attributed to a price war with Flybe, estimated by Loganair to have cost it £6.8m

If the figures are correct, nothing to worry about as either one-off costs for establishing a stand-alone operation that were to be expected and costs associated with the price war with Eastern which is now over

[mullac30]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ERJs at Inverness turned out cheaper to run than the S2000s!

[ifu05596]

Jonathan Hinkles confirms on BBC Radio Shetland that the ATR42 will likely be the replacement for the SAABs (I think the presenter said 340s...) and could be seen as early as next year. He ruled out using 145s on the Sumburgh route saying they are unsuitable but did say they will be used on Stornoway.

[BAladdy]

Link does not seem to work, but story is - https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/loganair-to-launch-new-european-routes-1-4759063

LM have started to update there S19 schedule. It appears that the 2 ER4’s being transferred from BM are to begin operating for LM from 01APR19. The aircraft are showing as both operating rotations to BEB, LDY and SYY from GLA from that date.

Benbecula

LM407 GLA 07:15 BEB 08:10 SF3 x67
LM407 GLA 10:50 BEB 11:45 ER4 6
LM409 GLA 15:00 BEB 15:55 ER4 7
LM409 GLA 16:00 BEB 16:55 SF3 x67

LM408 BEB 08:40 GLA 09:35 SF3 15
LM408 BEB 11:00 GLA 11:55 SF3 234
LM408 BEB 12:15 GLA 13:10 ER4 6
LM410 BEB 16:25 GLA 17:20 ER4 7
LM410 BEB 17:25 GLA 18:20 SF3 x67

Londonderry

LM207 GLA 08:00 LDY 08:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 10:00 LDY 10:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 14:05 LDY 14:55 ER4 135
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 SF3 45
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 ER4 7

LM208 LDY 09:20 GLA 10:10 ER4 6
LM208 LDY 11:25 GLA 12:15 ER4 7
LM208 LDY 15:30 GLA 16:20 ER4 135
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 SF3 45
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 ER4 7

Stornaway

LM470 GLA 07:00 SYY 07:55 ER4 x7
LM472 GLA 11:10 SYY 12:05 ER4 135
LM472 GLA 11:10 SYY 12:05 SF3 246
LM474 GLA 13:00 SYY 13:55 ER4 7
LM476 GLA 13:50 SYY 14:45 ER4 6
LM476 GLA 15:00 SYY 15:55 ER4 x67
LM476 GLA 16:00 SYY 16:55 ER4 7
LM478 GLA 18:00 SYY 18:55 ER4 x67

LM471 SYY 08:25 GLA 09:20 ER4 x7
LM473 SYY 12:35 GLA 13:30 ER4 135
LM473 SYY 12:35 GLA 13:30 SF3 246
LM475 SYY 14:30 GLA 15:25 ER4 7
LM477 SYY 15:15 GLA 16:10 ER4 6
LM477 SYY 16:25 GLA 17:20 ER4 x67
LM477 SYY 17:30 GLA 18:25 ER4 7
LM479 SYY 19:25 GLA 20:20 ER4 x67

The BM ER4 currently based at INV to operate flights to BGO, DUB and MAN continues to operate S19Further Changes are highly likely over the coming months

[ifu05596]

Does anyone know whether in theory the new agreements with KLM and Thomas Cook Airlines are eligble for ADS and if you depart from an airport that is exempt from APD the whole journey should not have APD (like the BA codeshare ones)? Looking at the websites there is no ADS option and it adds on all the APD as if they are just two standalone flights.

[edi_local]

Does anyone know whether in theory the new agreements with KLM and Thomas Cook Airlines are eligble for ADS and if you depart from an airport that is exempt from APD the whole journey should not have APD (like the BA codeshare ones)? Looking at the websites there is no ADS option and it adds on all the APD as if they are just two standalone flights.

There dosn't seem to be any concrete information on the Loganair ADS page, but they have a way of contacting them for more info [email protected] or 0800 032 2890. They might know?

[SealinkBF]

This is from the ADS website... not entirely clear! 5. Does it apply to onward connections?



Only journeys to and from Inverness, Aberdeen, Bergen, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh are included.

[edi_local]

Just thinking about this. Why would the APD not apply for onward connections?

I understand APD not applying for the initial 'lifeline' links between the highlands and islands and the mainland, but why should people not pay it on the onward legs?

[Navpi]

I agress with last poster. I can see an incentive re Highlands and Islands but not say Glasgow Manchester simply because they originated in eg Islay

[virginblue]

Just thinking about this. Why would the APD not apply for onward connections?

I understand APD not applying for the initial 'lifeline' links between the highlands and islands and the mainland, but why should people not pay it on the onward legs?

As waiving APD benefits all, whereas the ADS only applies to locals., maybe it is to incentivise travel TO those places? Or is the APD only waived for flights FROM those destinations?

[inOban]

Reading his post I assumed that if he books, say, Islay to Glasgow, he gets the discount. But if he books Islay to AMS, or to his TCX holiday he can't find a way to still get his discount on the first segment, which he should be able to do.

[ifu05596]

Reading his post I assumed that if he books, say, Islay to Glasgow, he gets the discount. But if he books Islay to AMS, or to his TCX holiday he can't find a way to still get his discount on the first segment, which he should be able to do.
Correct Islay - Heathrow on BA.com has a with and without ADS price that discounts the Islay to Glasgow leg (not Glasgow to Heathrow). Doesn't seem to be so for TCX or KLM.

On APD - my understanding for example is that you can do for example Inverness-Heathrow-New York for example and pay less APD than say Glasgow-Heathrow-New York and that people will actually position to Inverness to take advantage of this (saves a few hundred pounds if flying club world). When you try and do the equivalent on say KLM via Glasgow I thought the originating airport would determine the APD for the whole journey but seems not.

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know when Loganair might announce what European cities it plans to serve with the ER4’s joining the fleet for S19?. I have heard that BRU will almost definitely be one of the routes announced and have heard rumours of flights to CPH.

[SealinkBF]

Just thinking about this. Why would the APD not apply for onward connections?

I understand APD not applying for the initial 'lifeline' links between the highlands and islands and the mainland, but why should people not pay it on the onward legs?

There already is an incentive - no APD.

[shamrock7seal]

Is Loganair profitable? Where can I find financial performance data?

[SWBKCB]

Is Loganair profitable? Where can I find financial performance data?

see from post 120

[awwdabaaby]

The loss was only due to the fact that they went out on their own instead of a franchise, branding etc

[BAladdy]

Loganair are taking over from Eastern Airways as operator of BACF’s up to 3 x daily IOM-LCY service from 01SEP18. Crew currently based at IOM and employed by Eastern are to be TUPEd to Loganair. Flights will be operated by a S2000 which will be based at IOM. It is unclear if the S2000 operating the route will be painted in full BA livery.

Hopefully Loganair will prove to more reliable operator than Eastern Airways has been in recent months.

[Plane mad 134]

As soon as I heard Eastern were stopping the Isle of Man to London route for BA I always thought Loganair would take over because of their previous partnership with them and they also have the right size of aircraft.

[TartinTon]

Good that they found a use for the aircraft that was earmarked for Carlisle

[CabinCrewe]

Mmm, not sure on their daily reliability, especially stretching resources on new sectors and bases. My last two flights with loganair (Wick) were one and two hours (SYY) delayed on 30min flights.
Cant be any worse! Is this Loganair's first trip to LCY?

[oapilot]

Is this Loganair's first trip to LCY?


No they’ve been there before, when under the Flybe franchise.

[virginblue]

Good that they found a use for the aircraft that was earmarked for Carlisle

From what I know, the Carlisle-based aircraft was supposed to be a Saab 340.

[Jamesair]

i understood it was to be a Saab 340 for Carlisle

[TartinTon]

I don't doubt that it was but all it means is that they can use the 340 elsewhere on the current network and switch a 2000 to IOM

[Gurnard]

No they’ve been there before, when under the Flybe franchise.
Logan operated Do.328s from LCY after absorbing the former Suckling/Scot Airways outfit.

[Plane mad 134]

Loganair's new Emb135 G-SAJB is in the paintshop having been withdrawn from service for BMI on 30th of September.

[ifu05596]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x598/c4f8fa89_aeba_466e_96b4_cdcd84187668_5891e3268c8e11b6326e9c1 08f40d65f95ce22f3.jpeg
And here it is!

Loganair's new Emb135 G-SAJB is in the paintshop having been withdrawn from service for BMI on 30th of September.

[Gurnard]

Loganair's new Emb135 G-SAJB is in the paintshop having been withdrawn from service for BMI on 30th of September.
Hmmm... Back in service with BMR as of yesterday, operating out of Bristol.

[Mooncrest]

Nice to see XJ again after a long time. She, alternating with XK, was based at Leeds Bradford for a few years operating mainly Brussels and Glasgow schedules, neither of which we have now. Are you paying attention, Logan ?

[VickersVicount]

Interesting approx fuel burn comparisons
Saab340 ~400kg/hr
Saab2000 ~ 900kg/hr
ERJ135 - 1100kg/hr

Obviously the fuel flow is only part of the economics with faster quicker flight times, full ownership and no repayments. I think maintenance costs of Saabs are also disproportionate.
BMI have done okay with them so dont think theres a major issue here. Im sure Loganair have 'done the math'

[LFT]

Interesting approx fuel burn comparisons
Saab340 ~400kg/hr
Saab2000 ~ 900kg/hr
ERJ135 - 1100kg/hr

Obviously the fuel flow is only part of the economics with faster quicker flight times, full ownership and no repayments. I think maintenance costs of Saabs are also disproportionate.
BMI have done okay with them so dont think theres a major issue here. Im sure Loganair have 'done the math'


"Done the math" - Wow, you American? But anyway, I'm sure they've done their sums as they say in Scotland and nice to see another Jet in Loganair colours and I'll hopefully have a flight in it soon.

[mwm991]

S19 schedule should come out sometime December.

[nef]

Does anyone know when Loganair might announce what European cities it plans to serve with the ER4’s joining the fleet for S19?. I have heard that BRU will almost definitely be one of the routes announced and have heard rumours of flights to CPH.

I think cph and bru could be a mistake given the sheer volume of frequency, capacity and ultra low fares available on these routes from EDI - you can get edi-cph on Fr for £26 rtn and edi-bru on SN for as little as £64 rtn on many dates over the coming winter! A LOG e145 operation will surely require fares of £150-200+ and I'm skeptical whether they'll be able to get enough pax willing to pay such fares at GLA in the face of what's available at EDI only 40 miles down the M8. I think many pax traveling to these destinations could just ignore a LOG service due to fare difference and fly from EDI instead.

Imo they'd be better going for routes that are not currently served (or only lightly served) from the central belt such as BGO, SVG, OSL, HAJ, LUX, ZRH, BIO. These are much thinner in terms of pax numbers, but due to the lack of competition or direct alternatives I suspect they'd be better able to command the kind of higher fares such an operation would likely require.

I really hope LOG have done their homework very dilligently on this, as a poor choice of routes could be a real mess.

[GoEDI]

I strongly agree. EDI-LUX/ZRH could be good routes. Maybe GLA-OSL/DUS (if EW are leaving that route). Can't see any value in them attempting the likes of BRU and CPH given the competition, as you say. Shouldn't be trying to rely on codeshares and connections to hub routes either. It might increase demand, but it will just dilute the yields. Needs to be p2p routes that can generate good O&D demand even with high fares in order to create good margins on these ERJs IMO...

[mullac30]

G-SAJB was officially re-registered and transferred to Loganair today, according to G-INFO. It is currently at Inverness awaiting the take over services from the leased BMI a/c, whilst G-SAJC will do Glasgow S2000 routes when it arrives.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Why G-SAJ* in particular?
Someone's initals?

[mullac30]

Why G-SAJ* in particular?
Someone's initals?
Scotland's Airline Jet?
Presumably, the first ATR42 that comes in "late 2019" will be something like:
G-SATA (T for Turboprop)
G-SAPA (P for Prop)

[Atlantic Explorer]

Why G-SAJ* in particular?
Someone's initals?

Scotland’s Airline Jets.

[mullac30]

Why is the leased BMI 145 at INV still doing half the flights? Why can't the 135 take over completely?

[BAladdy]

Looks like the Manchester-Inverness service is being operated by a mixture of aircraft over the next few days. Maybe LM do not have enough Embraer trained crews at the moment.

[BAladdy]

https://buyingbusinesstravel.com/feature/2329327-interview-jonathan-hinkles-loganair

Just read this article online. The article states that LM plan to add 4 ex BM jets in the next year and that they will be based at GLA & NWI. So looks like the days of LM operating the day D328 are numbered.

[goldeneye]

BMI used to operate to Zurich from EDI, stopped about the time of the BA sale.

Going back even further, Crossair used to operate from ZRH with a Saab 2000 in the late 90s

[4567]

According to a recent interview GLA will be the main source of European destinations from Scotland, slot application dependent two airports in Germany have been applied to and waiting to hear back. Assumptions at the moment at taking over the Dusseldorf route which has been dropped by eurowings and perhaps Hamburg or Hannover could be a good prediction.

As as has been mentioned Brussels and Copenhagen may be a step too far but you never know in the aviation world, I suppose it will depend on the success of jet operations.

[limited_sight]

A concern with Loganair is that their future jet fleet comprises of aged airframes that have excessive fuel burn per seat. This will become very unhealthy for them soon, once their hedges have run out.

Starting European routes in expectation that Scotland will leave the European Union is also not risk free.

[mullac30]

A concern with Loganair is that their future jet fleet comprises of aged airframes that have excessive fuel burn per seat. This will become very unhealthy for them soon, once their hedges have run out.

Starting European routes in expectation that Scotland will leave the European Union is also not risk free.
The ERJs aren't just for expansion, they are also replacing S2000s and D328s. It's been mentioned that the considerably cheaper parts and maintenance, and the higher reliability of the ERJ compensates for the higher fuel burn compared to the Saab 2000 and D328 that they will be replacing on routes that don't require short field performance ( this is where at least one brand new ATR 42-600S will come in Q3 2019 ) in order to phase out the S2000 when they go off lease in 2020.

[spagiola]

Jota flew Avro RJ85 G-JOTR for Loganair for a few days in mid-October. Was this covering for an aircraft in maintenance?

[scodaman]

Loganair starting City of Derry Airport LDY - Glasgow GLA this coming Sunday 28th Oct and it is sold out and so is the return the following Sunday 4th Nov.

[mikkie4]

If/when LOGANAIR start flights from SEN could they pick up the GLASGOW flights that have been stopped by STOBART/FLYBE or would costs make it a non starter

[_aax1]

If/when LOGANAIR start flights from SEN could they pick up the GLASGOW flights that have been stopped by STOBART/FLYBE or would costs make it a non starter

Not a chance. The yields on the are already rock bottom on LON-GLA due to competition.

[ifu05596]

Bring back Loganair on GLA-MAN. I’m working there until the end of January and looks like winter has Flybe down to 2 flights Man-Gla on Thursday/Friday and will lose my Friday night due to a 7pm flight...

Wouldn't mind the Clan points either!

[BAladdy]

Loganair have today announced new year round routes from EDI to BGO, SVG and ILY for S19. They also plan to operate operate a seasonal service to GCI. Flights to BGO, GCI and GCI will be operated by a 37 seat ER3

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/315167/loganair-adds-four-routes-from-edinburgh

[tomahawk98]

Loganair have today announced new year round routes from EDI to BGO, SVG and ILY for S19. They also plan to operate operate a seasonal service to GCI. Flights to BGO, GCI and GCI will be operated by a 37 seat ER3

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/315167/loganair-adds-four-routes-from-edinburgh

LOL...........

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Do better than “LOL”, at least try to add something...

Small volume routes the big boys won’t go for on a jet that’s not super expensive to fly at current fuel prices. Knowing EDI they’ll be bussing for miles like flybe alas.....

[tomahawk98]

Do better than “LOL”, at least try to add something...

Small volume routes the big boys won’t go for on a jet that’s not super expensive to fly at current fuel prices. Knowing EDI they’ll be bussing for miles like flybe alas.....
The route isn't compatible with the ERJ135.

[goldeneye]

The route isn't compatible with the ERJ135.

Which route isn’t compatible ?

Link says that BGO, SVG and GCI will be on E135
and ILY is on S340.

[Jerbourg]

I seem to recall that GCI cannot take a fully loaded 145 due to stopping distance, but the 135 is ok - am I right?

[kcockayne]

No problem then, Jerbourg, when the runway has been extended. I

[Rob Royston]

I seem to recall that GCI cannot take a fully loaded 145 due to stopping distance, but the 135 is ok - am I right?
Is take off distance not the issue?

[SealinkBF]

Loganair website now has Orkney inter-island airports listed in drop down menu.
With Flybe being valued at £24m last week might BM/LM pounce? That would be a turn up!

[PDXCWL45]

Loganair website now has Orkney inter-island airports listed in drop down menu.
With Flybe being valued at £24m last week might BM/LM pounce? That would be a turn up!
How would that benefit them?

[Navpi]

Or pick on the carcass?

[PDXCWL45]

Or pick on the carcass?
which I doubt they would have the strength to do.

[Plane mad 134]

Does anyone have any ideas on what the next route announcements will be, I expect Glasgow will get a few and Edinburgh will also probably get a few more routes seeing as the based Emb135 at Edinburgh only has a daily flight scheduled and would be sitting around for a while.

[Albert Hall]

which I doubt they would have the strength to do

Have you had a look at who owns it? I think they have the strength to do pretty much anything their owners want to do. The key in there is the shareholders wanting to do something, which can't always be taken as a given.

[SealinkBF]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20181104_184218_ebay_247800b2c44c04be53325b47a11f 889391d51c32.jpg
How would that benefit them?

Restore connectivity lost when Flybe threw their toys out of the pram.

Before a restructure which saw Manx take over most of their routes, Loganair was a huge UK regional airline. Flybe routes like Belfast to Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh were all Loganair routes.

[GoEDI]

Does anyone have any ideas on what the next route announcements will be, I expect Glasgow will get a few and Edinburgh will also probably get a few more routes seeing as the based Emb135 at Edinburgh only has a daily flight scheduled and would be sitting around for a while.

The E135 is NWI based. The EDI Euro routes are being operated as a W pattern from there, so I reckon the next announcement will be GLA routes only.

[mullac30]

The INV ERJ has a fair bit of spare time, especially in the winter, any chance of more euro routes from INV? Perhaps CDG with their AF/KLM links? They could ever do this route from GLA as well, seeing that they might have more success than HOP with their smaller A/C.

[Jamesair]

Nothing yet about the proposed Carlisle routes.....if a March 19 start is planned, surely they must be going on sale soon?

[VickersVicount]

I always get slightly concerned about non based W patterns in terms of time keeping and reliability, especially with a random fleet

[Fly757X]

I always get slightly concerned about non based W patterns in terms of time keeping and reliability, especially with a random fleet

Over Longer sectors they tend to work better. In this case it will be hit or miss, especially considering GCI's regular spells of low vis.

[GoEDI]

The E135 schedule is certainly tight during the week. 8 sector days with generally only 30-45mins ground time.

[virginblue]

Over Longer sectors they tend to work better. In this case it will be hit or miss, especially considering GCI's regular spells of low vis.

GCI is a seasonal flight only on saturdays, so very little risk as the aircraft will most likely have a more relaxed schedule on saturdays.

[Fly757X]

GCI is a seasonal flight only on saturdays, so very little risk as the aircraft will most likely have a more relaxed schedule on saturdays.

Sorry completely missed that, cheers 👍🏽

[harriewillem]

Expansion is huge and goes so fast for them.. as they need high yield I do hope all these start ups dont start a proces we dont want to see logan air in!

[ifu05596]

Wonder if Scotland’s airline has deep enough pockets to take over an old flame that tried to extinguish then less than a year ago...

[inOban]

Makes more sense than the ideas of many other posters.

[mwm991]

Wonder if Scotland’s airline has deep enough pockets to take over an old flame that tried to extinguish then less than a year ago...
Can't see it. At most they will pick up on any dropped BE Scottish routes.

[mullac30]

Can't see it. At most they will pick up on any dropped BE Scottish routes.
Loganair's parent company, Sector, could well have deep enough pockets to take Flybe. It would probably have to go with a shake-up of the whole AIL, with all BE and BM Scottish operations moving to Loganair, BE ERJ services moving to BM, and Loganair's NWI operation moving to BMI, seeing that it's becoming an ER3 base anyway. CAX ops could move to whats left of Flybe.

Probably not likely, though.

[ifu05596]

Wouldn’t rule it out could be something interesting if the estate was divided between bmi and Loganair. I think from a balance sheet perspective the group is quite strong and Loganair is constrained by lack of available aircraft and has an aging fleet... that and from a brand perspective - Loganair over Flybe every minute of every day...

[davidjohnson6]

Flybe would be an awfully big mouthful (in relative terms) to be digested by the combination of Loganair and bmi. Furthermore, Loganair has prospered by being a rather conservative airline - they are not known for taking great risks.
That said, I could see Loganair biting off a *chunk* of Flybe - perhaps taking on some aircraft, crew and the thinner routes from Scotland to airports in the rest of the UK which won't support double daily A320 service (most definitely not the ones to London)

[4567]

I think if Flybe is carved up then BMI and Loganair will take a chunk if they can but taking on Flybe would be a mistake, especially inheriting a load of q400 aircraft when their move has been towards ATR.
Definetley reoresents an opportunity for the AIL group though I would think.

[southside bobby]

Loganair have signed an interlining single ticket agreement with Emirates for their Dundee-Stansted PSO service covering onward travel STN to DXB & a further 155 connecting destinations.

[SWBKCB]

Thanks SSB - some real, meaningful news amongst all the yards of speculation.

Should help the "global connectivity" which is what this PSO route is all about.

[shamrock7seal]

Interesting move by Loganair to introduce Bournemouth to Channel Islands routes in competition with Flybe at Southampton

[Plane mad 134]

Loganair have announced new routes from Bournemouth to Jersey and Guernsey on E135 aircraft.

[22/04]

Loganair have announced new routes from Bournemouth to Jersey and Guernsey on E135 aircraft.

Are these w patterns- if so probably a good way to use the aircraft especially in the current climate- sadly they will take business for next summer from an ailing FlyBe

[goldeneye]

Are these w patterns- if so probably a good way to use the aircraft especially in the current climate- sadly they will take business for next summer from an ailing FlyBe

looking at the times looks like it is NWI-JER-BOH-GCI-BOH-JER-NWI

[TartinTon]

Are these w patterns- if so probably a good way to use the aircraft especially in the current climate- sadly they will take business for next summer from an ailing FlyBe

Poetic justice after what they tried and failed to do to Loganair in Scotland. As you sow.....

[Dropoffcharge]

sadly they will take business for next summer from an ailing FlyBe

I can honestly see some Scotland routes from BOH being added before next year as well, strike while the iron is hot so to speak!!!

[Sharklet_321]

Do you have this on good authority?

I am sceptical about the success of 'regional' airline services from BOH because of the list of failures in the past and the inability to compete with the high frequency of flights at SOU. What seems to work at BOH is low cost as it appeals to a wider catchment area and is far less bothered about frequency. The higher fares of regionals reduce that potential customer base and make it unviable (for BOH).

BOH saw double daily services to Prestwick with Ryanair but the pax were all paying next to nothing. Flybe also tried double daily Glasgow flights that lasted less than a year before being consolidated at SOU.

The operators that have tried and failed with BOH-Scotland include:

Euroscot Express (1-11 and ATR-72), 55,000 pax to GLA (1997/8)
Gill Air (ATR-72/42), 29,000 pax to GLA (1999)
Ryanair (738) 120,000 pax to GLA and 80,000 pax to EDI (2003-2010)
Flybe (Q400) 33,000 pax (2015)

[VickersVicount]

Mention on CH Aviation of LC supplementing their Saab 340 fleet... I thought they were looking for ATRs?

[mullac30]

What is supplementing LM's fleet? The ERJs?

[BAladdy]

Mention on CH Aviation of LC supplementing their Saab 340 fleet... I thought they were looking for ATRs?

Unfortunately to read the article in question requires a pro membership. Anyone on been able to read it yet?. They were looking at the ATR as part of a fleet modernisation. With 48 seats the ATR42 would be a perfect replacement for the S2000’s that are planned to be phased out by early 2020. Not sure how good a replacement the ATR42 would be for the SF3. 14 extra seats per flight might be to many for some routes.

Maybe supplementation of the SF3 will be through adding more SF3’s in the short term?

[Flightrider]

The headline makes it sound much grander than the reality. It's just a 340 in from an Estonian mob for short-term C Check cover and Christmas extra capacity - so a month or so.

[mullac30]

I believe that the last ch aviation article stated Q3 2019 for the first ATR 42 delivery, not sure it it's new or used though. Final 340 phased out after 2025.

[Jerbourg]

HUY-JER announced today for summer Saturdays 2019


https://twitter.com/JERairport

[BAladdy]

HUY-JER announced today for summer Saturdays 2019


https://twitter.com/JERairport
Flights have been on sale for a couple of months now. The service is being operated by a 49 seat ER4

[mullac30]

According to a Shetland News interview (https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/11/29/loganair-plans-to-revamp-fleet/) with the Chief Operations Officer at Loganair, the airline could be on the verge of placing an order for 20 ATR 42s, with delivery over the period of 2019-2024, (unless they are sourcing them second hand). I think this is the first time we've seen anything set in stone for fleet replacement, and would see the entire Saab 340/2000 fleet replaced by 2025.

My guess for the fleet composition in 2025:
- X2. BN e-Islander
- X3 DHC 6 400
- X4 ATR42F
- X16 ATR42S
- X5 ERJ135
- X10 ERJ145

Loganair could possibly reduce 7 basic fleet types down to 4.

Overall fleet size would be around 40 by my guess depending on the success of international services.

[4eyed anorak]

It would appear that HOP are getting rid of all their ATR's soon!
8 by 2019 and 6 in 2020.

Regards 4ea

[shamrock7seal]

Mullac30: This is good news. When will it become official?

I would also encourage them to look at a few ATR-72's - they would be similar in terms of trip costs as the SF-2000, but can carry up to 28 more pax - hence lower fares would be possible.

[harriewillem]

According to a Shetland News interview (https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/11/29/loganair-plans-to-revamp-fleet/) with the Chief Operations Officer at Loganair, the airline could be on the verge of placing an order for 20 ATR 42s, with delivery over the period of 2019-2024, (unless they are sourcing them second hand). I think this is the first time we've seen anything set in stone for fleet replacement, and would see the entire Saab 340/2000 fleet replaced by 2025.

My guess for the fleet composition in 2025:
- X2. BN e-Islander
- X3 DHC 6 400
- X4 ATR42F
- X16 ATR42S
- X5 ERJ135
- X10 ERJ145

Loganair could possibly reduce 7 basic fleet types down to 4.

Overall fleet size would be around 40 by my guess depending on the success of international services.

I am really sorry, but the airline of Scotland breaking into "new" markets is hardly a positive thing, W paterns and just some summer work... for me that are flags of warning...

Also as for any carrier going from "old" "owned" to new build fleet, on their fixed costs this will be such an increase, hope their variable cost will be lower... but fixed cost need to be paid evry month.. again again and again...

Do wish them best as tehy are a great outfit... to compare them with Highland Airways you cant I know, but they went out of the Highlands too to look for the promised land...

[SWBKCB]

The article doesn't say the ATR's will be new build.

[mullac30]

The article doesn't say the ATR's will be new build.
Yes we dont even know what variant they will be, but there are benefits to new build 600s such as short field performance packs and the new AR landing system for low cloud and fog that Aurginy are getting.

[mullac30]

I am really sorry, but the airline of Scotland breaking into "new" markets is hardly a positive thing, W paterns and just some summer work... for me that are flags of warning...

Also as for any carrier going from "old" "owned" to new build fleet, on their fixed costs this will be such an increase, hope their variable cost will be lower... but fixed cost need to be paid evry month.. again again and again...

Do wish them best as they are a great outfit... to compare them with Highland Airways you cant I know, but they went out of the Highlands too to look for the promised land...
The W patterns to Jersey and Guernsey are just to get higher utilisation on the NWI based jets as they make more sense to fly frequently than the Dorniers that they replace.

[ETOPS]

Looks like ATR 42 will be the future for Loganair.

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/11/29/loganair-plans-to-revamp-fleet/

[virginblue]

Looks like ATR 42 will be the future for Loganair.

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/11/29/loganair-plans-to-revamp-fleet/

Well, if you are a regional airline today and are looking for new aircraft in the 30-40 seat range without being inclined to shop in the antiques section, it is the ATR42 or nothing. So hardly surprising and long rumored..

As for HOP! frames becoming available, they mainly operate ATR72s and only a handful or so ATR42.

[Michael S]

Well, if you are a regional airline today and are looking for new aircraft in the 30-40 seat range without being inclined to shop in the antiques section, it is the ATR42 or nothing. So hardly surprising and long rumored..

As for HOP! frames becoming available, they mainly operate ATR72s and only a handful or so ATR42.

Well, that’s not entirely true. There is still Brazilia available.

[Jerbourg]

Well, that’s not entirely true. There is still Brazilia available.


Embraer stopped building Brasilias in 2001!

[nighthawk117]

According to a Shetland News interview (https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/11/29/loganair-plans-to-revamp-fleet/) with the Chief Operations Officer at Loganair, the airline could be on the verge of placing an order for 20 ATR 42s, with delivery over the period of 2019-2024, (unless they are sourcing them second hand). I think this is the first time we've seen anything set in stone for fleet replacement, and would see the entire Saab 340/2000 fleet replaced by 2025.

My guess for the fleet composition in 2025:
- X2. BN e-Islander
- X3 DHC 6 400
- X4 ATR42F
- X16 ATR42S
- X5 ERJ135
- X10 ERJ145

Loganair could possibly reduce 7 basic fleet types down to 4.

Overall fleet size would be around 40 by my guess depending on the success of international services.

I'd be surprised if they are still using ERJ135/145s in 2025... they will be a bit long in the tooth by then! If the ERJ experiment works, i can see them upgrading to 175s by then, either that or ditching them and sticking with the ATRs.

[Michael S]

Embraer stopped building Brasilias in 2001!

Not exactly. They stopped “serial” production but they still can make them on individual orders.

[mullac30]

Airways magazine report that the ATRs will be brand new 42-600s

[fjencl]

How many seats does a brand new 42-600 have, or is that carrier specific

[lfc84]

up to 48 i belive

[4567]

Great to hear as the interior of new ATR is much improved on earlier models to the benefit of staff and customers!

[BAladdy]

Any word on when LM are going to announce there new European routes from GLA?.

[TartinTon]

Any word on when LM are going to announce there new European routes from GLA?.

I suspect that they may have issues getting decent slots at any of the major cities that have been mentioned as they are simply full at peak hours whether you have new entrant status or not.
This *could* be a reason for the delay in announcing. Otherwise you would want to get on sale as early as possible to give yourself the longest lead time to sell.

[tibbs87]

Embraer stopped building Brasilias in 2001!

True, they ceased main production of the aircraft in 2001, but they do build new Brasilia's on request, as the Angolan Air Force received newly built EMB 120s in 2007.

[davidjohnson6]

If main production ended 17 years ago, would you really want to place a new order ? Yes I'm sure all the paperwork is in place, I would be wondering if the tooling, factory process and organisational knowledge / experience that sits in emoyees heads is really as good as it needs to be to produce aircraft which don't end up being hangar queens. If I was an airline CEO, the idea of manufacturer employees having to essentially relearn things they/their colleagues hadn't done for years to be a bit of a concern

[mullac30]

The only possible reason for LM to want a dodgy brand new Brazillia is commonality with the ERJs. ATR family makes much more sense.

[virginblue]

True, they ceased main production of the aircraft in 2001, but they do build new Brasilia's on request, as the Angolan Air Force received newly built EMB 120s in 2007.

Why would you go from 34 seat Saab 340s to 28 seat Embraer 120s? Despite them being availble as built to order, apparently nobody in the past 17 years has ordered any. Must be for some reason.

The 30seater market simply is a non-starter and even the 50seat market is struggling, given the small number of orders for the only available 50 seater turborprop. The ATR42 more or less has become a niche application for those who cannot make use of ATR72s on short runways (like in the Bahamas, the Caribbean etc.) I understand that the operating costs for both ATRs are more or less the same so it appears to be a non-brainer to have an additional 25 seats to toy around with if acquisition costs for ATR72 are not much higher than for ATR42s.

[Arctic Circle]

Operating costs are very similar. The 42 only requies one cabin attendant. More importantly for Loganair, the 42 has better crosswind capabilities than the 72.

[Rob Royston]

The ATR has a much poorer safety record than the Saab 340. I'm basing this on 2014 data. Should this be a concern for Loganair?

[The Listener]

Seems a bit like comparing apples with oranges so to speak....
When you were basing this how many ATR (42 and/or 72) against how many SAAB 340's? Hundreds against dozen(s)?

Just asking :-)

[Arctic Circle]

Consider to which parts of the world many newer ATRs have been sold. The safety record here in Europe is very good.

[scr1]

According to their twitter feed their will be a announcement in the new year

https://twitter.com/FlyLoganair

[Rob Royston]

Seems a bit like comparing apples with oranges so to speak....
When you were basing this how many ATR (42 and/or 72) against how many SAAB 340's? Hundreds against dozen(s)?

Just asking :-)
I can't find it now, but it was fatalities per one million take offs. The ATR's were at 0.44 and the Saab 340 was on 0.19. It was based on data of all incidents up to 2014.

[Flightrider]

I’ve never known an airline evaluation of a new type to be conducted in internet search statistics, to be honest. But if they did - as A 42/72 would on average be carrying about double the number of passengers of a 340, you’d expect this metric to be about double if the accident rates themselves were the same, surely?

[Rob Royston]

It is more complicated than that. How may of those ATR accidents came down to pilot error or being operated in inherently more dangerous areas? If you look at Saabs that have a serious failure leading to a loss of life vs ATR etc and came up with those numbers you can maybe have an argument to say they aren't as safe but there are a lot of cowboy outfits in ATR's that could really skew that number.
I found where I got it from, maybe I'm reading it incorrectly. There was a problem with icing on the ATR's in the earlier models. If you click on the FLE link it makes you to another page.

http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

[rhutch28]

Any word on when LM are going to announce there new European routes from GLA?.

Glasgow to Dusseldorf flight start on 31 March 2019, Taking over from Eurowings
https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/17305682.glasgow-airport-to-welcome-new-flight-route-to-germany-in-new-year/

[Fly757X]

G-SAJC (Ex G-RJXF) entered service today which relieved G-SAJB from Inverness for maintainence at Aberdeen.

[DND delivery]

I found where I got it from, maybe I'm reading it incorrectly. There was a problem with icing on the ATR's in the earlier models. If you click on the FLE link it makes you to another page.


There was an American Eagle ATR72 crash in 1994 (Roselawn), a combination of icing and pilot error. They modified the de-icing boots after that accident.

[BAladdy]

G-SAJC (Ex G-RJXF) entered service today which relieved G-SAJB from Inverness for maintainence at Aberdeen.
was G-SAJC delivered in having been painted in Loganair colours?.

[SWBKCB]

G-SAJC is in full BM cls

[BAladdy]

G-SAJC is in full BM cls
Noticed it positioned to EMA a couple of days ago. I am guessing it is probably being painted in Loganair colours.

[BAladdy]

LM’s most recent schedule update now shows that they are planning to have 2 ER3’s based at NWI from the start of 31MAR. LM previously planned to op 1 ER3 and 1 SF3 from 31MAR to 31MAY with the 2nd ER3 relaying the SF3 from 01JUN

LM’s 2 D38’s appear to be planned to op there final flight from NWI to both EDI and MAN on 29MAR. I recently flew on the SF3 from DND-STN and have to say that the D38 is a much more comfortable aircraft to fly on.

Does anyone know if LM are going to the D38’s beyond 29MAR?. Would to see them operating from DND again..

[Fly757X]

LM’s most recent schedule update now shows that they are planning to have 2 ER3’s based at NWI from the start of 31MAR. LM previously planned to op 1 ER3 and 1 SF3 from 31MAR to 31MAY with the 2nd ER3 relaying the SF3 from 01JUN

LM’s 2 D38’s appear to be planned to op there final flight from NWI to both EDI and MAN on 29MAR. I recently flew on the SF3 from DND-STN and have to say that the D38 is a much more comfortable aircraft to fly on.

Does anyone know if LM are going to the D38’s beyond 29MAR?. Would to see them operating from DND again..

Both have been up for sale for years. They've now decided just to go ahead and get rid of them this year to make way for the ER3's.

[SWBKCB]

Noticed it positioned to EMA a couple of days ago. I am guessing it is probably being painted in Loganair colours.



G-SAJC noted at EMA in full LM colours today.

[CabinCrewe]

GLA-DUS route launch brought forward exclaiming better than expected demand/forward bookings.
Seems promising if genuine.

[Rob Royston]

G-SAJC noted at EMA in full LM colours today.
It moved up to Glasgow the same day. Yesterday they cancelled three flights of G-SAJB on MAN-INV, not sure if they used another aircraft but JC not seen. Is it getting some trim work?

[ifu05596]

It moved up to Glasgow the same day. Yesterday they cancelled three flights of G-SAJB on MAN-INV, not sure if they used another aircraft but JC not seen. Is it getting some trim work?

According to this it operated on Monday afternoon to Stornoway (but FR24 shows it was the S2000).

https://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/news/loganair-boost-to-western-isles-air-services-1-4853855

[Rob Royston]

According to this it operated on Monday afternoon to Stornoway (but FR24 shows it was the S2000).

https://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/news/loganair-boost-to-western-isles-air-services-1-4853855
I've got this weeks printed copy of that paper and this article is not there, as far as I can see, so it may just be on the website. I looked up FR24 for LM477 and the aircraft goes to ER4 on Monday coming. The article quotes an airline director so the reporter may have received his flyer from LM and started next week's article after this weeks paper was set. I can't see FR24 showing the wrong aircraft?🤔

[ld0595]

FR24 isn’t always correct. I think there was an instance a few months/years back that it thought EK was sending another A380 to Glasgow when it was just a 777.