HPE - ARAPA

[CowardlyPilot]

Just heard the HPE guys are trying to negotiate ARAPA at the expense of MPF, Salary and RP's. Talking of other concessions too.

Not cool guys, all in together, shouldn't be making concessions anywhere no matter what carrot management dangle in front of you.

Accept NO concessions.

We must keep ALL standards including ARAPA and pay rises with inflation at bare minimum.

If you are ARAPA, don't start a war with LEP's as this is super short sighted.

[kahaha]

Hows that payrise hanging over there at CX hahaha...

I hear there's no 13th for you guys. But hey you do get to do looooong haul.

[PanZa-Lead]

For those of you in the HKAOA please go to the website and put your name down for the letter to be sent to the DFO from pilots. Over 800 so far

[ron burgandy]

Yeah, and I heard the invasion was to be at Calais.
Seriously, some people will believe anything that's said to them without giving it any thought at all.

[330dryver]

Kahaha,

Seriously are you 12? Are you actually KA? I don't think you are. I don't think I've met anyone there like you. If you are just a wind up artist it's quite obvious. If not you are obviously an idiot.

[raven11]

330 I'd say he's the latter.

Speaks volumes about our hiring policy....

[Jackschitt]

Heard the principle theme is:

Carrot
Work to 65

Stick
PF reduces to 13% so you have to work to 65

[CowardlyPilot]

Believe me now??

ARAPA notice to terminate has been given, leaving the expats last hope to keep ARAPA by negotiating it in HPE.

Don't make concessions including ARAPA. Accept nothing less than the status quo.

[MPPCAG]

This from kahaha in Terms and Endearment in the 'Joining Ryanair' thread:

Hi guys. Im in the Far east and can afford to pay for the €28k DEC training. I want a Milano base and overtime . And a stable roster and bonus .
Any guys there can add any info?
I understand its only 18 hours per week of duty and a really great company. I hear they are reducing the roster workload , which sounds great .
Thanks in advance

He's clearly the latter....

[airplaneridesrfun]

Good job DS - HPE is AWESOME!

[Some How I'm Tired]

After the cancellation of ARAPA, if ANY trainer does not resign from training now then there is no hope. The Training Ban is the only thing that the company is scared of. Why else would GMF send an email to all trainers trying to soften the blow of ARAPA cancellation.

ALL TRAINERS MUST IMMEDIATELY RESIGN FROM TRAINING!!

[Scoreboard]

Feeling very unwell now with all this uncertainty ......whats one to do with all this stress....

[ANTIPHOLUS]

And apparently, according to the latest Boeing newsletter, we are due a "record " cargo uplift next month, ie October. And we're all to be thanked. Are we now ? Just pointing it out.

[Jackschitt]

HPE played right into mgmt hands.

Move 1
Say yes to HPE

move 2
Give strategic wins to aoa re Jeppesen (hence some minor concessions from company)

Move 3
Cancel Arapa
Make aoa members pissed at DS

Move 4
Offer new contract with hkpa only (sweetened levels). Tied to withdrawing cc and tb with good old clause 7.

Move 5
Offer trainers big improvements on above said contract ala good old Arapa.

Move 6a
If aoa votes down above, contract offered individually. Membership levels drop. Members join training. TB gone. Check mate

Move 6b
If aoa approves. TB gone, CC Gone, ARAPA gone, mgmt Still have upper hand in RP AGREEMENT since no reimplementation of CC and TB
Check mate.

[GICASI2]

As an addendum try:

- Keep HKG as a training base only.
- All non-trainers employed on N Am, (BREXIT) European and Aus base with own seniority and 'career' system.
- If a Capt 'volunteers' (stupid idea in the first place) to train, then HKG base it is.
- No cadet system required (at quite a cost saving) ONLY recruiting to bases
- No need to pay HKPA to the local guys and gals as the expat requirement has disappeared (at the SO, FO and non TC levels - I'm stumped with the local TCs!!!!

[CowardlyPilot]

Company says they've been in discussions with the Hkaoa about lifestyle initiatives. Sounds like the lifestyle initiatives are going to be cuts for all pilots to try and keep arapa for the minority, which is what arapa is. The minority. Don't sacrifice what little conditions we have for arapa.

Vote no to any cuts including arapa cuts.

[BYE_ARAPA]

It's gone

Don't try and salvage ARAPA by selling everyone down the river.

[Trafalgar]

Gosh, could this just possibly, allegedly be another cretinous management mole? Hmm, post #2, advising us to just roll over and take it. I know what my contract says, and it says I am entitled to ARAPA. Nothing to do with 'everyone' else.

[controlledrest]

Company has given fair-share rostering as a bribe to the spiky hair crowd. No cost to the Company, removes transparency from the roster and makes the spikys happy. The only fair rostering is strict seniority.

Next they will offer an increase in the living allowance.

At the other end they will look after the Trainers.

In the middle they will screw over the ARAPA guys.

AOA needs to add a rule - No agreement will be entered into if it comes at the cost of concessions from any pilot group.

[Flex88]

Just heard the HPE guys are trying to negotiate ARAPA at the expense of MPF, Salary and RP's. Talking of other concessions too.

Not cool guys, all in together, shouldn't be making concessions anywhere no matter what carrot management dangle in front of you.

Accept NO concessions.

We must keep ALL standards including ARAPA and pay rises with inflation at bare minimum.

If you are ARAPA, don't start a war with LEP's as this is super short sighted.

Why not throw in negotiating to keep a half assed Medical Insurance benefit as well. They just took an axe to that as well but I bet you didn't notice.. You or a family member get real sick or injured and you'll find out how (un) well your coverage is....

[Brokeidiot]

Company has given fair-share rostering as a bribe to the spiky hair crowd. No cost to the Company, removes transparency from the roster and makes the spikys happy. The only fair rostering is strict seniority.

Next they will offer an increase in the living allowance.

At the other end they will look after the Trainers.

In the middle they will screw over the ARAPA guys.

AOA needs to add a rule - No agreement will be entered into if it comes at the cost of concessions from any pilot group.

This company has never been a strict seniority rostered airline so why should it be now. Ah probably because you are more then halfway through your career here so you only stand to benefit.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Quick command ..:mad:...most of the guys here who are 55 or thereabouts took 10 yrs + to command,unless they were trampling over seniority like those f@cktards of the NTSB or ASL.
And it's been anything but fair share..ask a fairly senior guy on the freighter fleet how fairshare is working out . Even in the dying days of the jumbo pax operation, the last 3 or 4 years of decent trips were monopolized by the same 10 or 15 individual captains on super compact rosters..fairshare my arse...

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Again more :mad:. Probably the top 150 (out of what, 3200+ ) got their commands in the salad days. Hardly representative of the demographic now. Hardly “ most of the individuals”. Representative of senior trainers and indeed managers ( not all by any means ) however that is what you would expect in any airline, that the senior people gravitate there. And they’ll wither on the vine soon enough. The creation of ASL :mad: over more than a few careers, not only on the freighter; your original point was about fairshare, was it not ? There has never been fair share here, more luck of the draw as to what fleet you ended up on.
I take it from your level of bias your ex ASL ? Either that or you don’t know your head from your arse.

[Trafalgar]

Curtain. I admire, respect and appreciate nearly all your posts. However, in this case I think you are a bit off-base. Antipholus nails it in his concise explanation. Let's not bicker amongst ourselves when the real enemy is a management hell-bent on destroying our financial security, careers and health. All to pad their own bonuses and then move onto the next Swire gravy train.

[Trafalgar]

All fair points, but I believe so were those from Antipholus. Ultimately, none of us can do much about what happened in the past, but we sure must stay focused on the main and imminent threat. Management LOVE to see us bickering. I'm so traumatized by the threat that I don't think I can concentrate fully on the job. Safety first. Shame it has to coincide with the holidays....

[Trafalgar]

Your last point was spot on. Screw the negotiations. The crisis IS self-generated and CX is using it to force cuts. Not a single one of us should be playing that game. I know what my contract says. And so do the lawyers. Hopefully the AOA will realise that none of us are going to accept having our long fought for benefits and conditions 'negotiated' away. That won't pass 'go'.

[controlledrest]

This company has never been a strict seniority rostered airline so why should it be now. Ah probably because you are more then halfway through your career here so you only stand to benefit.

There has never had a request system that works. With strict seniority the system becomes transparent so we can see when the company is screwing with us. And no, it will be a long time before I would benefit from strict seniority.

[morningcoffee]

Mike, I’ll take the laughable hypocrisy of pilots for 5 points

Back in the day, A scalers got offered RA65 and as a result every B scaler got the choice of RA55 with bypass pay to compensate for additional years as an F/O. And here we are, B scalers on RA55 now want RA65 but couldn’t give a rats ass about bypass pay that the C scalers should be entitled to as a result of them also getting additional years as an F/O.

Back in the day the AOA fought tooth and nail to offer commands on the Freighter to anyone who would take it because $24K housing ($38ish in today’s money) was more than enough to live on in Hong Kong. And here we are bleating about how we can’t live on a reduction in the $100K rental. For sh*ts and giggles the company, with the AOA’s blessing, should offer Freighter commands again with “much reduced” housing just to see the hundreds and hundreds that would apply.

I could go on here.

The GC would be a fun job if it wasn’t for the pilots they have to represent.....

[Fly747]

Yes CR, and a whole load more freighter Captains on the lesser deal have turned up in HK over the last month following closure of the MAN base. They are all looking a bit dazed!

[Trafalgar]

CR. Your comment regarding the "increased standard of living offered by the higher rental entitlement in accordance with their CoS (which, by the way, was created and defined by the company)". A further note on that point: the rental entitlement (ARAPA) was 'created and designed' by the company to FOLLOW THE MARKET PRICE OF HOUSING IN HK. It was designed by the COMPANY to adhere to the guarantee of 'suitable' housing in HK. If they try to change it, then they are voiding the very 'market pricing' they originally created the scale for, and therefore they are violating my COS. Are you LISTENING AOA?? (...I know i'm shouting, but I am as p*ssed off as I ever have been). :mad:

[morningcoffee]

Curtain rod,

Jesus, where to begin. If a b scaler who was supposed to retire at 55 now stays on past 55 he’s going to :mad: over the career progression of and delay the upgrade of a C scaler. Why are you struggling with that? If he was going to retire on a Friday when he turned 55 then CX would be needing a new skipper on Monday to replace him/her. No retire, no replace.

The company had a flood of guys trying to pay back BPP and go to RA65, some were successful, some weren’t. The fact that you don’t know any means absolutely nothing.

Not sure wtf your talk about Freighter bpp is about, are you saying it shouldn’t have been paid when pax captains went past 55, Freighter only?

The AOA endorsed the Freighter deal, that’s curiously not the same as doing absolutely nothing. Maybe the AOA could have said it doesn’t approve, everyone that took the deal and got a command in 5 yrs says it’s all ok because the AOA was happy with it. As I said, let’s do it again. Makes a mockery of us trying to keep housing anywhere near present levels.

[AtoBsafely]

Mr Coffee,

Where to begin?

Management introduced working past 55 as a way to crew aircraft whilst growing the airline back in 2006(?). Initially, only commands on the freighter were offered and later it was available on any fleet. The DFO at the time assured junior pilots the time to command would not be affected.

When management introduced COS 08, they took away bypass pay as well as reducing some salary scales. It was a significant cut to B scale, but did allow working until 65.

You seem poorly informed. COS 08 was not endorsed by the AOA, it was brought in by CX Management unilaterally. Just like they will introduce a COS 17/18 with all the stuff they think they can get pilots to accept.

[BlunderBus]

Last 3 flights all RQ fo's going
UPS Qantas and AHK
If contract companies get the commuting sorted out its game over cx

[Dragon Pacific]

Dragonair pilot exodus 'grounding flights' | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/article/613303/dragonair-pilot-exodus-grounding-flights)

[TheGreenDragon]

10 years ago. The travesty is that gove or take , the same bunch of manager mingers are still incharge. Now hiding in CX :mad: , supping their lattes , thinking of their xmas holidays.Total :mad:

[Trafalgar]

That's the outrageous tragedy of HK aviation. In a 'first world' business environment, these people would have been out on the street years ago. In HK, after a decade (or even longer...), they are still in place causing untold damage to the company and the lives of people and their families. It is a travesty that corporate governance in HK is so lacking. Ultimately, the only thing that will sort out the problems of the individual pilot is for him/her to leave and establish a career at a company/place that will provide a stable and rewarding work environment. CX/KA will never be that place. Ever.

[Shep69]

The company had a flood of guys trying to pay back BPP and go to RA65, some were successful, some weren’t. The fact that you don’t know any means absolutely nothing.



I don't know if this is true or the extent to which it happened.

But you do realize, of course, that IF it happened such an action (i.e. having to pay back BPP or in any way incurring a cut in conditions simply to go to RA65) would be illegal in many of the jurisdictions in which CX operates.

Think the Kiwis just won a case on that very issue.

[Air Profit]

There wasn't a "flood". A handful at most. The majority of RA55 pilots made their decisions and are happy with the same. Ultimately, CX, out of spite more than anything else, is not willing to look at the issue further. The usual "cut off nose to spite face" CX move, as their pilot/experience shortage is growing exponentially. Flew a couple of days ago, both FO's are 'outahere'.

[Loopdeloop]

If a dozen is a flood then yes there was a flood.

For the last 10 years the HKAOA position has been to support a fair deal on RA65. That means RA65 for all pilots, and for those with BPP in their contracts to have it honoured for previous RA55 extendees.

For those in denial, please visit the AOA forums and get educated.

[Trafalgar]

I completely support RA65 for all pilots. Especially as the experience level in this airline is declining precipitously. I don't know how your resolve the obvious complications, but the company should come up with a viable scheme and put this issue (...one of far too many) behind them. The obstinate refusal to address this is obviously more out of spite than a recognition of the airlines best interests.

[Farman Biplane]

If the company wants RA65 for the COS99 pilots, then it will happen.
Until the company want/need it, then it is simply a bargaining chip/vote purchase item.

[goathead]

Anyone who wants to work for this company and or took RA 65 with a changeover to COS 08 was ridiculously desperate or a sandwich short of a picnic.

[morningcoffee]

Half a dozen replies about RA65 and none mention the negative affect it would have on C scale career progression.

I’m guessing you’re all B scalers?

[Dan Winterland]

BBC - Capital - The real reasons expats may find themselves worse off (http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20171031-the-real-reasons-expats-may-find-themselves-worse-off)

[Shep69]

Half a dozen replies about RA65 and none mention the negative affect it would have on C scale career progression.

I’m guessing you’re all B scalers?

Wow.

IMHO, you, sir, sound a great deal like the company guy who writes their version of the contract proposals. Writing to push everyone down into the bottom five percent and hit things with a stick rather than have incentives for the talented people we hire to aspire to the top 5 percent (which in a way results in a self-fulfilling prophecy). And divide the house against itself with the hopes that a divided house can be controlled, hoodwinked, chiseled, and manipulated. Exploiting resentment, division, envy and strife rather than a cohesive team with hope and vision toward the future.

It's this kind of thinking that has got us to where we are today. A divided house cannot stand. And isn't.

To your 'point', it's NOT a zero sum game (in fact it's NEVER a zero sum game), and doesn't have to have ANY negative effect whatsoever (quite the opposite). But this demands one have the attitude of profit, incentive, growth, investment and upgrade--rather than the attitude of contraction, slash, burn and malaise. Here's a novel idea--how about we make people happy and upgrade everyone we can--and embrace an upgrade process that results in maximum gain with minimum pain (doing so as close to when an individual becomes eligible as possible in a process with a high success rate and minimum collateral time spent during the process). Other airlines that are 'winning' not only have high success rates in upgrade but also ARE upgrading their people at relatively early points in their career (which sets the forward looking stage for future expansion of the carrier). Setting the standard that people WANT to get in the door, WANT to stay, and WANT to make this the most awesome place on the planet. Where pulling the pin and leaving is unthinkable from a job satisfaction perspective rather than based on the sunk cost of acquired seniority and starting over.

At the end of the day it's not about minutia and money--it's about how people perceive they are being treated. And how their team is being treated. And the level of dedication they have to their institution.

Like I've said, I have absolutely NO idea whatsoever whether the losses are due to a bad bet or an elaborate capital laundering scheme. If it WAS a gamble it was a very bad one; not so much on the loss itself but where the loss went.

If we ARE going to gamble, how about we gamble on our people ? Your oil can't love you back.

[morningcoffee]

and doesn't have to have ANY negative effect whatsoever (quite the opposite)

So you're saying the longer that guys stay in the company the more upgrades there will be because there isn't anyone leaving? It may be a stretch to sell that confusing concept to the C scalers........

[Shep69]

It's not confusing at all--at least if the airline has a future.

I might suggest you look at how the US economy performed under Ford/Carter versus under Reagan. The former assumed a zero sum game, the latter rejected the concept. If that's too far back to remember you can look at the early days of the Clinton years versus the latter days of the Clinton years. Embracing the 'zero sum' game always results in a decline toward zero; not in a maintenance of status quo.

Of course if your strategy is to shrink the pie, try to divide the ever shrinking pie up amongst whoever is still left, and run the place into the ground you might have a point. But you might first want to look at what the thriving airlines are doing.

Taking naps in one’s college courses isn't always a good idea because you might miss some key points. Like when you wake up and see the "Hugo Chavez" model and miss the point that during your slumber the prof was telling the class it's NOT a good way to run a business.

[controlledrest]

The company doesn't want to offer 65 to the RA55 guys, as they believe experience doesn't matter. Anyone with a few years in the company costs more than a new joiner, so the quicker than can get rid of you the better. Current managers just hope to be in another job when we crash and kill hundreds of pax.

They will have a $ value on a hull loss and a risk level they are happy with.

[Gnadenburg]

Bloomberg: Shares have staged a steady recovery this year as the Hong Kong-based carrier looks at ways to cut costs, including pilot compensation

Oh no, not goldensacks..
Goldman Sachs put Cathay Pacific on its conviction list, calling the company unloved and misunderstood. Investors are underestimating the airline’s potential to boost earnings, Goldman analysts led by Ben Hartwright

There’s no way In hell that CX bosses are going to back down now . Cut cut, slash n burn . Hosepipes to the ready , pprune pilot heros lol

I think the CX guys ignoring you ?

Or perhaps as a low cost pilot renting in HKG you have little credibility and traction ?

Personally, I think you are foolish in your glee. I doubt you could afford your COS attacked but if that's the trend locally, perhaps you underestimate your own vulnerability ? If not collusion, there's a holistic management sentiment to the local pilot market. Like jet fuel, we are a commodity. Smashing pilots is sporty discussion over an afternoon G & T at the Club. I know, I've heard it.

You really should value the profession more.

[morningcoffee]

Shep, your ramblings to deflect from the obvious, only serve to highlight how divided the pilot body is. Every group wants what’s best for them, and if it’s at the expense of others then so be it. Whether it’s A or B scalers, LEP, or C scalers. The largest base (Hong Kong) has just lost seniority in rostering because the minority bases and their labour laws have forced it upon us. You really think someone on a base gives a toss about HKG. Guys are marooned on the freighter fleet and all anyone on the pax fleet can say is “thank :mad: it’s not me”
Guys on ARAPA are running around like the world is about to end and no-one else really cares. Except anyone who was going to come off a base to suck up housing in hkg, they’re probably happy they stayed put.

[Oval3Holer]

We all care. We certainly do, but just not enough. The sad fact is that no one is willing to put his or her job and future career (if one can call it that) on the line to fight the company. It's called a strike, and it will never happen. Therefore, the company will impose what it wants, when it wants, and all we'll do is complain and take up the a$$.

[Shep69]

Yup....so I guess I'll just ramble on :)

But you can't help a management that doesn't want to be helped so that's that--and explains (at least in the case where it NEEDS help but has a management group who is wholly unwilling to listen and remains holier-than-thou) how we got to where we are; namely a race to the bottom. With stratification between a few hanger-oners marking time (which is understandable) and new hires (perhaps with no where else to go and/or using the place as a stepping stone)--and attrition everywhere in between (all of which takes the experience and sunk cost of training with them). So I guess that's the 'new normal' here. And is indeed the "Hugo Chavez" model.

I very much disagree that people don't care about other groups--especially because it's very likely they will find themselves IN that other group at some point; at least IF they stay. But maybe it's not enough. And it is easier (and perhaps more prudent) simply to ride the waves for a bit while one looks elsewhere and pulls chocks. When you have a great deal of people on a base declining command that's a pretty strong indicator you have one hell of a problem.

What IS different today is the airline biz is booming so supply and manning becomes a real problem (and the manning you want won't come to such a place--so you get folks that are going to need a great deal of training resources to get up to speed; always running the risk such assets will jump ship rather than dedicate themselves to an organization that's behaved the way it has). The question becomes to what extent does the parent company with their inefficient model wish to bleed cash to weather a storm that has no indication of abating.

Divided workforces aren't (and will never be) particularly efficient. So the spiral continues and the 5% syndrome becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy--driven entirely by the 'leadership' who sets it up. Folks goal becomes targeting what they need to do to get by and stay out of trouble rather than striving for excellence and helping the team excel. So ya get minimum effort rather than maximum productivity. And the frustrated talent looking for career development simply marks time and bolts. Like I've said this Hobbsian philosophy has failed everywhere it's been tried and won't work here (and in the process of failing it becomes only a matter of time until an organization embracing this philosophy is done for). Incentive based competitors who don't DO things like this will eat you alive (and are).

This has happened since the beginning of time on a small scale with small groups and organizations all the way up to large nation states. It's the same old song. In the case of larger nation states they sometimes so cripple their economy that they run out of stuff to survive and invade other nations to get THEIR stuff and productivity. But even this fails in that the state with greater productivity and incentive eventually prevails; sometimes quickly sometimes slowly.

One's job comprises a great deal of one's life and it's pretty silly to live this big chunk of one's life unhappy.

Money is only a small portion of this FWIW.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

So what are you still doing here Shep. ? One of the “ hangers on “. ? If money isn’t the sole prerequisite then why don’t you take your own advice and hand out your vicarious brand of altruism pro bono somewhere else. ?
Whilst you’re at it you and your fellow litigants ( all salt of the earth I’m sure, although knowing the individuals I doubt it ) can maybe reflect on the fact that you’ve probably done more than your fair bit to :mad: over any chance of any of your NAM colleagues ever achieving a base, at least in the short term.
Still, a full service pension must take some of the sting out of it, one would have thought, wouldn’t one. ?

[Shep69]

Looks like someone is in need of a bridge to hang out under.

[Oval3Holer]

What does the lack of NAM bases in Canada have to do with litigation in California?

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Yes Shep. Thanks. I’ll look for one in your home town shall I. ? Plenty to choose from.
Sorry, don’t get the Canuck allusion. Should have probably predicated that as US bases.

[Oval3Holer]

There you have it. The implementation of the Jeppesen Pattern Optimizer is to blame for no base positions being opened. Oh, and legal action in certain bases.

So, for JFK, for example, which has no legal action pending, we have to wait for the Jeppesen Pattern Optimizer to tell us whether it is beneficial to open a base there.

Maybe we should check with The Central Scrutinizer.

[Average Fool]

Lucy holding the football.