One down at Jimboomba (SEQ)

[spinex]

Just seen on 7 News website, difficult to make out what aircraft but could be a Diamond.

[meggo]

Hearing 2 fatalities.

[Band a Lot]

Photo
Two dead in light plane crash south-west of Brisbane - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-26/two-dead-in-light-plane-crash-south-west-of-brisbane/8987906)

[spinex]

Ah bugger! Thanks for the update, the initial blurry, distant photo didn't look too bad, but that one in the ABC report tells the story - that was a hell of an impact to do that. RIP fellow aviators.

[mostlytossas]

If my memory serves me correctly, is there not a training area out that way? In any event very sad to hear.

[Propstop]

VH-MPM DA40 Photo Sky News

[Band a Lot]

Plenty more info on channel 9 news than here! over moderated I guess. The witness report is disturbing for this type.

[spinex]

Can't say I'd seen any signs of moderation - anyhow what was it that you found disturbing? Only report I could find on nine news site referred to aircraft entering a "spiral" and crashing, which could mean anything, or nothing.

[Band a Lot]

My missing post about the impact and a reply to the training area.


The witness gave a bit more info than that, and the reliable Wiki has this as never a stall related accident aircraft type, and reference to the cirrus's parachute being a faster decent than this aircraft in a decent.

[mikewil]

reference to the cirrus's parachute being a faster decent than this aircraft in a decent.

I've heard that one too. You are apparently better off in a DA40 holding the control column full aft in a stalling descent than you are in a Cirrus with the parachute deployed. Not sure how accurate such a claim is though.

How many DA40 fatals have we had in Aus? You could probably count them on a single hand...

[spinex]

Hmm, hadn't seen your post, Band a Lot. As far as the cause of the crash goes, big difference between mushing down with both wings more or less stalled and a spin, which the "spiral" comment points to. Looking at the video, I'd hazard a guess that the descent rate in a spin is substantially higher than the 600-1200 fpm which the wiki refers to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgtTf1xbq-U

[Band a Lot]

And what was it 1600 + views and only a handful of comments from us aviation personal that are highly opinionated and happy to place forward a comment from a RIP to how could this have gone into a stall.

I say over moderated is a factor - sad when this leads to persons trying to get info from MSM other than a place that can give more insight even if the clay needs to be extracted from some comments by readers.


These 2 threads today are very light on comment and if it was a certain place in Korean national pilot and not a Hong Kong student pilot I would find that acceptable and normal.

[Band a Lot]

Spinner half buried and both wings generally have wing extremities - tail off hard to right.


A spin is a hard call on the placed parts we see.


But that is my opinion.

A mostly nose down with a slight right wing low seems a the cards.

But how and why?


P.S. RIP and I don't for a moment blame either at this stage.

[StickWithTheTruth]

Somewhat reminiscent of the Bristell that went down in Vic a month or so back. Certainly not an overly nose low vertical impact and the wings mostly intact are pointing to pancaking.

[Flying Binghi]

And what was it 1600 + views and only a handful of comments from us aviation personal that are highly opinionated and happy to place forward a comment from a RIP to how could this have gone into a stall.

I say over moderated is a factor - sad when this leads to persons trying to get info from MSM other than a place that can give more insight.....



Interesting... and yet those trained investigators who we task with giving more "insight" into aircraft accidents make the comment.. "...it is too early to speculate about what caused the fatal crash, the ATSB and CASA say..."

Mayday call attempted before fatal light plane crash near Beaudesert (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/09/26/10/23/light-plane-crash-beaudesert)






.

[Band a Lot]

I will go on record!


The FATAL crash was due the unsurvivable nose down impact with the Earth even thou the seats could survive a 500 g impact.


The eye witness seems to know a bit more about the flights around his turf than others.


Trained investigators are employed by the same folk as our governing CASA employees, many of them I find hard to call experts or even capable of much in aviation.

So lets wait for the report from the experts.


For the record I think it is a +50% or close 50/50 this may be a non pilot issue and a external factor may be involved.

[Ascend Charlie]

One witness on TV said it emerged from cloud in a spiral and just kept on spinning till it hit the ground. The skies were clear while filming the interview, but there could have been cloud earlier.

[Sweet Surrender]

With all due respect to the pilots involved.

Why is there now a trend (King Air Essendon) for pilots to waste time giving a Mayday call when there is no one, other than themselves, who can help them. It would seem to be a lot more productive to use that time to attempt to regain control.

[mikewil]

With all due respect to the pilots involved.

Why is there now a trend (King Air Essendon) for pilots to waste time giving a Mayday call when there is no one, other than themselves, who can help them. It would seem to be a lot more productive to use that time to attempt to regain control.


Probably so search and rescue can be arranged immediately. Clearly if you are near the controlled aerodrome of departure you will likely be on radar or at least being procedurally monitored, but to save thinking "is anyone likely to be watching me on radar", I guess it is good airmanship to send out a mayday regardless just in case no one is watching.

[beer bong]

Sweet Surrender has just won the stupidest comment of the decade.

[YPJT]

Sweet Surrender has just won the stupidest comment of the decade
Quite an accolade to earn there sport.... well done

[Sweet Surrender]

Well thanks guys. Not often I get compliments.

Organise rescue?

OK. The Essendon accident was in the middle of the aerodrome. I don't think multiple Mayday's were required to alert the rescue services. Brisbane was in the middle of the training area with full radar coverage and people visible on the ground nearby.

Again I pose the question, why are people making mayday calls instead of FLYING.

[Skywagon1915]

I wonder how much time he had after clearing the cloud referred to ? But I would expect they were both flying and talking on the radio at the same time. This is a flat spin right ? Has the Diamond got an issue like this ? They must have been comfortable with what was happening above the cloud until they realised perhaps that it was not going to recover, and then hit the transmit button ... I wonder.

[extralite]

Not saying a spin was definitely the issue but from what I can read, fully developed spin recovery for DA 40 (not approved for spinning that i can see) is idle, forward stick and opposite rudder. Pretty instinctive for most of us probably but perhaps not someone that has mostly flown non spin approved aircraft? Be easy to keep back stick if in a bit of a panic with the nose down.

Anyway very tragic and hopefully the cause is found so that it may help others avoid the same.

[Matt48]

Sweet Surrender has just won the stupidest comment of the decade.
Isn't it ' Aviate, navigate, communicate', in that order.

[StickWithTheTruth]

Despite my wife believing otherwise I can actually do two things at once and with the PTT on the control column I'm confident I could slip out s mayday call of some sorts whilst working to safe the aircraft and myself (inc. pax). It's always good for investigators to hear of a mayday call so they can immediately discount certain scenarios, plus rescue as above.

I've heard so many times that the crashed aircraft was found up to a couple of days later within close proximity to the departure aerodrome because there was no radio comms.

[TBM-Legend]

it's called multi-tasking...

[chance]

TBM Legend
Legend in the lunch box as usual for your posts.
Get the facts first.

[Capt Fathom]

Get the facts first.
Ah, what facts?

[YPJT]

I reckon I'd hate an ATSB report to read that some POB had survived a crash but died due to the time taken to locate the wreckage because I didn't try and let someone know what was happening.

[Sweet Surrender]

I reckon I'd hate an ATSB report to read that some POB had died because they had wasted time making radio calls when they should have spent the time trying to recover.

A wing falls off, yes make a radio call. The aircraft is in a spin / spiral dive, normal aeroplane stuff, spend your time recovering, not admitting defeat.

(these comments are not reference this specific incident but the apparent trend to communicate before they aviate )

[currawong]

Agreed.

No point wasting time talking to someone with no appreciation of your situation who is unable to help even if they did.

[YPJT]

the circumstances will dictate what I would do.
Sure in a spin situation I too would be fighting every second to effect a recovery. On the other hand, an engine failure at altitude over remote country I'd be onto Centre pretty damn quick too.

[TBM-Legend]

TBM Legend
Legend in the lunch box as usual for your posts.
Get the facts first.

I was referring to pilots being able to do more than one thing at a time. I this case we had two pilots, maybe the non-flying pilot put out the call when it was obvious that something was wrong. There is no evidence that they were in a developed spin and started talking..

[Lead Balloon]

Hopefully there'll be a leak about some previous regulatory action against either or both of the dead POB, so that the usual smug 'tut tutting' can be engaged in by the usual suspects.

Clearly there should be more regulations and restrictions around flying. There should be a list of circumstances in which pilots commit an offence if a mayday is transmitted. One of the circumstances should be any in which a couple of arseclowns on PPRuNe decide that a mayday should not have been transmitted. :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Hopefully there'll be a leak about some previous regulatory action against either or both of the dead POB, so that the usual smug 'tut tutting' can be engaged in by the usual suspects.

Clearly there should be more regulations and restrictions around flying. There should be a list of circumstances in which pilots commit an offence if a mayday is transmitted. One of the circumstances should be any in which a couple of arseclowns on PPRuNe decide that a mayday should not have been transmitted. :ok:

You'll be voting NO then...:E





.

[currawong]

What's an arseclown?

[aroa]

An "arseclown" is a CAsA person who has a 'set' on you and gets off on writing your pvt mobile number on toilet walls so you get calls from those chaps of the gay persuasion.

I kid you not.

I think its called harassment.
We will soon see who has the last laugh.

[megan]

Spinning was mentioned prior, it's a pity it's not in the syllabus any longer.

A 421 in a spin, two deaths, 26th Sep.

Pád letadla na ?eskolipsku | Prima PLAY (http://play.iprima.cz/zpravy-ftv-prima/pad-letadla-na-ceskolipsku)

[Sunfish]

Seems the Diamonds don't recover easily from a spin.....

[Des Dimona]

I think SS was maybe trying to articulate "Aviate - Navigate - Communicate" in that order.

The problem with this simplistic view is we just don't know what train of events led to a tragic outcome in this and the Essendon accident.

There are lots of complicated and inter-related factors that make assumptions about causes in events such as these very problematic.

[Sunfish]

Sweet Surrender:
Again I pose the question, why are people making mayday calls instead of FLYING.

Because, you stupid Ghoul, the people involved do not contemplate their own immediate deaths. They contemplate either recovering from their situation and perhaps being in need of assistance afterwards or receiving help and encouragement from the ground.

That latter actuality has happened before for VFR folks caught in IFR conditions.

[YPJT]

Sunfish,
Some people will argue or troll for the sake of it,

[megan]

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it", was the quip I'm familiar with. One story that came out of the Vietnam conflict was the mayday caller getting the reply, "Shut up and die like a man". Legend has it that the saying originated in the Korean conflict where "aviator" rather than "man" was used, "aviator" reputedly being a status term used by USN pilots, Marine and USAF being mere pilots.

8BCBPOPg1hc

[Lead Balloon]

So we now have two action items for the regulator:

(1) Make it an offence to transmit a MAYDAY in circumstances in which at least 2 arseclowns who weren't in the cockpit and have none of the facts of an emergency are of the opinion that the pilot who was in the cockpit should have spent his or her time doing something else than transmitting a MAYDAY.

(2) Amend the AIP to include this broadcast to be made in any circumstance in which someone considers a MAYDAY transmission to be poor airmanship: "Shut up and die like an aviator."

The contribution made by Downunda and Godzone to the collective wisdom called "airmanship" and "professionalism" is immeasurable. :ok:

[currawong]

Calm down.

Obviously, as already pointed out, circumstances will dictate.

[Pinky the pilot]

Speaking as 'someone who knows someone' who has made a genuine Mayday call;

He had no option.:= He knew he was going down, with no chance of saving it, and he had three passengers on board. The time interval from knowing he was going in to impact was about 30 seconds. He made the call.

Everyone survived. The most badly injured was he, the Pilot, who never ever flew again professionally!:eek:

His response to this thread after it was brought to his attention is/was;

Fly a mile in my shoes. Then tell me what you would have done!
Until then, STFU

He also wonders just how the thread drifted to mayday calls from the first post!

[StickWithTheTruth]

I once made a mayday call. I was going down and knew that nobody knew where I was within 20-30 miles, phone coverage was poor and this was before the days of phone tracking. I landed successfully on a very steep rock covered hill and it was only sheer luck that I didn't roll back down the hill to the certain destruction of the aircraft and possibly my jumping out if I was still able to.

Nobody heard the mayday call and luckily I was able to walk to a house to find out a location to get picked up from.

[currawong]

Is there some confusion here?

I don't think anyone is suggesting don't mayday ever.

Those are two good examples of when one should.

[megan]

Don't take my previous post the wrong way, I'm all for maydays. The only opportunity ever I had for one I didn't, mainly because as PF I was up to my eyes in crocodiles at the time. PM on the other hand did get one out while the situation was wrestled back into some semblance of order. Quick off the mark, a good lad. Alex C***** thumbs up.

[Centaurus]

for pilots to waste time giving a Mayday call when there is no one, other than themselves, who can help them. It would seem to be a lot more productive to use that time to attempt to regain control.



Much depends on the circumstances and time available. In 1990, an MU-2 iced up at cruise altitude at night and spun in near Meekathara killing the pilot and passenger. The pilot Don Ende, was a highly experienced former Air Accident Investigator.
He was able to describe what was happening and the fact his aircraft was iced up. His transmissions were invaluable to the subsequent investigation into the cause of the accident.

Similarly with the crash of a BAC One-Eleven during a test flight in England in 1963 caused by loss of control after the aircraft entered a deep stall.
The test pilot was able to transmit what corrective actions he was trying.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_BAC_One-Eleven_test_crash

[Lead Balloon]

The timing and content of the broadcast may also save the taxpayer millions in unnecessary search costs. Plus it will increase the probabilities of timely assistance in the event that people survive the accident.

[Flying Binghi]

Cameras are every where. A recent spin crash on camera...

Pád letadla na ?eskolipsku | Prima PLAY (http://play.iprima.cz/zpravy-ftv-prima/pad-letadla-na-ceskolipsku)


Thread about the prang:
http://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/600033-cessna-421b-double-fatality-czech-republic.html





.

[Seabreeze]

[QUOTE=Lead Balloon;9916860]The timing and content of the broadcast may also save the taxpayer millions in unnecessary search costs.

Yep, a Mayday from MH370 with accurate position might have even saved lives, as well as our pockets.

[Flying Binghi]

...sarc Off/

Yep, its us pilot types who no mater what are firstly concerned about saving the taxpayer money... That's why we need a pilot in Canberra... Vote One Dick Smith for Prime Minister..:)






.

[Lead Balloon]

It's not a dichotomy, FB.

A mayday could save your life and could save your PAX lives and could provide crucial information about the cause of the accident and could save millions in unnecessary search costs.

Depends on the circumstances.

[Ixixly]

How about we all agree that it's Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, we all know it and the Pilot flying this Aircraft felt that he had enough time to Communicate whilst trying to save the Aircraft and their lives and with none of us having been in their particular shoes it really is a bit much to be casting aspersions based on that fact alone.

[Jabawocky]

So what caused all this? Another diesel failure? Yeah I know that will raise flags, but MTBF is my interest here. I suspect the old avgas burners do better?

[Trent 972]

Don't think so Jaba. IO-360-M1A
RegoSearch | VH-MPM Australian Aircraft Registration Details (http://www.regosearch.com/aircraft/au/MPM)
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-096/

[Jabawocky]

Interesting, indeed, then I will be keen to know what went wrong.

Thanks for that.

[JenCluse]

A confession.

This forum, and this time, and this horrible accident may be a time & place for me to do a bit of truth-telling, finally, after bottling this up for close-on 60 years now.

In the late fifties I started on my private licence at RACSA, who then flew a fleet of Chipmunks. I was then a ground-radio ‘erk in the RAAF, over at Edinburgh. Buying lessons, I had gone solo, with about 18-20 hours up. This day I was tasked with solo practice steep-turns & stalls, over Parafield.

I *loved* spinning. After my task was completed to my satisfaction (two steep turns, left & right (tick, clearing turns, eh?) then two stalls & recover, I considered my duty done, and being at 5,000’ decided a practice spin was in order, solo for the first time.

Long before all this, I remember the fear in my mother’s voice when I announced I was going to learn to fly on the Chipmunk: Her instant reply was ‘Oh God! Be careful. They spin so easily and badly, and there have been so many people injured & killed in spinning accidents in them!’ (Paraphrased. Tone & info accurate. She not a pilot, but smart.) Child’s response: Don’t you worry Mum, I won’t let that happen to me. <sigh>

Can we pause another second for a second back story? A few months prior to my incident (below) I had discovered my RAAF station’s library. It included this amazing collection of flight-operations publications! Pilots notes on so many types, nav. theory tomes, and best of all a copy of the AP 1234. It was a thick loose leaf manual. Think an all-encompassing flight instructor’s training manual merged onto a basic aeronautical primer, very effectively. In that massive bag of wisdom was a discussion on spinning, it’s aerodynamic complexities and the difficulty then (and now) of calculating how a new aircraft will spin, There were notes on various aircraft’s spinning characteristics and associated recovery techniques. It ended with an extended discussion of the Tempest II, it being a particularly nasty beast. It had a willingness to flick into to a flat spin off a deliberate slipped turn in combat, and a special technique was required to recover from that. (The technique was worked out after *many fatalities in ops. & training. The II was withdrawn and replaced by the Tempest V, as soon as it was operation.)

The technique needed was to maintain full opposite rudder, but to trigger & develop an unusual form of a short-period mode, phugoid oscillation(1) fore & aft, (not called that then) by pumping throttle open and applying full forward stick simultaneously, then throttle closed and some back stick, and repeat, synching as soon as possible with a developing cyclic nodding frequency and working to amplify it. When successful, the aircraft would suddenly pick forward into a normal spin. Recover from that. IIRC it required 12,000’ *min* to recover. Below that height bailing out was the only solution. Noted. Also noted: the lack of a parachute in my training aircraft.

So, still at 5,000, and after another clearing steep turn, it’s slow down and into a left spin. This time I didn’t do the instant recovery pupils usually practiced, but sat back and enjoyed how everything quietened down, the pitch angle reduced to only about 8-10° nose down, ASI flickering near zero, and I even (FFS) unlatched the canopy, slid it back until I could sit there with my elbows outside. Hand outside. Puffs of breeze. Lovely. The perfect spin.

So about 3,600 I did spin recovery.

AND NOTHING HAPPENED

I recall turning around to check which side the rudder was displaced and comparing it to the direction of rotation. Mentally tracing the cables to the rudder bar and how I had it displaced. Mentally check my lefts and my rights. All OK. Reapplied all control displacements carefully. Turn after turn after turn. Nope. And then I suddenly recalled the Tempest II discussion. Released all controls. Carefully re-applied correct rudder, briefly full throttle and full fwd stick and it nodded! did it again and again and then the fourth time the Chippy just rolled fwd out of the spin into gentle dive so normal spin recovery and at about 1,900’ I was finally climbing away. Far below the base of the aerobatic training area. Very close to the circuit. Very shaken.

Baffled but curious I suppose, I tentatively climbed back to 5,000’ and after a long pause to gather my wits, I very carefully did it again. Yes it went into a normal nose low rough and buffeting spin, but at about 2.5 turns the nose rose smoothly but quickly to the flat smooth stable spin attitude. One turn to watch how stable it was, then into the Tempest recovery, and I climbed away just above 4,000’.

A slightly calmer third trip to 5,000’ and this time a right spin, to see if that affected anything, and it was all same-same, so an even quicker recovery.

A shaken pilot quietly joined the circuit, and after refuelling went into the flight office to face the music. There was no-one there! CFI, manager, other instructors? No-one. I stood at that desk, over the aircraft’s log for 15-20 minutes, an eighteen year old with no idea what to do next. I knew I couldn’t possibly write up the Chippy as ‘won’t come out of a spin’, could I. (I was a *ground radio erk at the time, no other aircraft knowledge, and didn’t know the power of a tech report in an aircraft’s made log by a pilot.)

To my shame, to this day, I finally decided that,1) the aircraft behaviour must have been normal, and that’s why we are taught to take quick recovery action, &
2) yes, you can’t report an aircraft for doing what an aircraft does normally, and mainly
3) I’d get into strife if ‘they’ knew I was spinning when I was supposed to (just?) do stalls and spins.

So home to barracks, back to the library to reread that chapter, and check whether I did it right. All good. In a way. Ah. The stupidity of youth, in spite of huge confidence levels!

About three weeks later, a slip of a lass with a heavier instructor in the back seat, spun the same aircraft into a paddock just off airport.

He had a very sore back for a long time. Her life was shattered. She was/has been confined to a wheelchair since then. DHC-2 Chipmunks fold up at the front cockpit on impact after a flat spin-in, frequently crushing the occupant. I can’t recall her name.

And this is the first time this shameful gutless person has ever admitted to what I did.

Now, perhaps, this snippet of knowledge *may help someone in the future. Some instructors may include the info into their briefings. Pilots new to the game who hear of this might understand that if something doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t right. If it is right, you’ll have an interesting discussion with other pilots and ground engineers, and come away smarter. There is no such think as a stupid question, or a ignorant mistake.

Who knows: It *may* have helped this instructor and his pupil be here still.

The cause of the problem spinning-behaviour in ‘my’ aircraft?

The tailplane rigging was out by less than 1°. An air-framie-fix, in no time. Easy & quick.

All it would have taken to save those two people and an aircraft were a few words in the log. Like this: (1st item-the problem) ‘Spins flat. Won’t recover normally’ (…then any other info.)

May the Gods, and that damaged lass forgive me my cowardice. May this confession help in my forgiveness by others.

Qld, Oct 2018



(1) See discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_dynamic_modes

[JenCluse]

Sorry. Don't blame you if that last post of mine is Too Long: Didn't read. It needs a bigger font for so much massed text. I should have written a book, eh?

[On eyre]

Thank you JenCluse - confessions are never easy - you have my admiration.
Well before my time at the Port Lincoln Flying Club they also trained in Chipmunks. I believe a similar (fatal ?) accident happened near Tumby Bay but I have no details.

Having done more research it appears I was wrong. Both accidents (yes two within a fortnight near Tumby Bay one of which had one fatality) were not as a result of spinning occurrences. Both however make interesting reading.

[rjtjrt]

Sorry. Don't blame you if that last post of mine is Too Long: Didn't read. It needs a bigger font for so much massed text. I should have written a book, eh?

Thanks for posting that. Not too long at all. It will potentially help others.

You were not to know about Chipmunk issues, and we all at that age would have been daunted by reporting it, especially when no one there to talk to.

There is a PPRUNE thread on Chipmunk Spinning that it may also be good to post it in.

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/574361-atsb-report-chipmunk-spinning-accident.html

The ATSB report (below) has a very interesting addendum at end - an extensive test pilot evaluation of Chipmunk Spinning (in response to various reports from UK and Australia about difficulty recovering from spin in Chipmunk). Concludes with the need to apply standard recovery technique, including ensuring control column trully FULLY forward, and maintain that input UNCHANGED till spin stops, which may take many turns after full recovery control position applied. Mistake apparently is either control column inadvertently not full forward due aerodynamic resistance in last part of travel in spin, and/or after applying proper recovery technique, too early thinking it is not working and thus moving controls to a different position due disconcerting thought aircraft is not recovering in a turn or two.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-114.aspx

[djpil]

I agree with rjtjrt, it would be good to have this with that other Chipmunk spin discussion or, even better, a new discussion thread. Thanks for posting it, JenCluse. It is important for people to know that things can go wrong in spins. Now I know where that advice on rocking to get out of a flat spin comes from, good to hear that it worked for you; other actions are more appropriate in types that I fly.

[rjtjrt]

I recall reading that RAF at one stage, re Chipmunk flat spin not recovering, recommended the throttle idea, and as last resort openning canopy and standing up in cockpit in order to alter airflow at rear of aircraft - worth remembering they wore a parachute as a routine!

[JenCluse]

Thanks for your thoughtful replies - esp rjtjrt and your . . . "and we all at that age would have been daunted by reporting it".

Age is nice to have on board, isn't it. Few of us have much wisdom in youth.

I shall follow the many recommends to re-post over at Chipmunk spinning. There are so many corners of PPrune to visit, and so little time :)

Thanks all for the so-valued rational discussions at this board. A rare pleasure on the 'net.

Cheers

[megan]

a slip of a lass with a heavier instructor in the back seat And probably therein lay the problem, aft CoG. Also learnt on the Chippy early '60's, and it was drilled into us about the spin characteristics and the necessity to hold the stipulated recovery as it took a time to do its work. Also drilled was not to start trying something else because you thought it was taking too long.

[Okihara]

@JenCluse:

I read your commendable post and would like to applaud you for coming forward with this. This experience seems to have had a marked impact on your life and I'd assume that you finding the right words must have been a long exercise. Still people, men I'd venture to say, and pilots not least, seem to mistake that admitting to a wrong equates weakness. On the contrary, I find it rather exemplary behavior. I am myself closer to the age you were yourself when those events took place which is maybe why your post made me wonder what I'd have done in your stead. It's fair to assume that you first expected to get a cold shower from your CFI when you landed and were somewhat happy to ``get away with it''. Maybe therein lies the problem. Things we hear all the time such as "don't get into clouds, don't do this, don't do that, ..." are all stigmatizing enough so when fresh pilots make mistakes, the prevailing culture of fear and punishment is obviously not promoting openness – much to everyone's expense.

Also, back in the 50s the world was a different place I'd assume. I can only speak for how much it's changed in the last 15 years and still, in this day and age, aerodromes, flight schools, pilot lounges still are all rife with vanity.

Would an entry in the aircraft logbook have meant a different outcome for the other two occupants? Perhaps. And carrying training spins in a different aircraft? Probably too. An instructor sitting at the front changing CoG and taking over controls when the recovery technique didn't seem to work? Most likely. How about this: a staffed flight school with an instructor to debrief you when you got back from your flight then? There might be a chance that you'd have more easily voiced your experience than pen it.

I don't know who you are but you strike me as a curious and intelligent individual and my guess is that it is rather these very qualities that got you out of those spins three times around. Don't let the weight of those 60 years be too harsh on your 18-year-old self, you're not responsible for their fate and you've done a great job raising awareness today.

[Dora-9]

The ATSB report (below) has a very interesting addendum at end

It's worth pointing out that this addendum was also posted out, at the time, to all Chipmunk owners/operators as a letter from D.G. Anderson (the Director of DCA) himself.

I have posted at length about this accident (and I'm STILL appalled at the instructors' lack of knowledge - despite all that's been written over the years - of Chipmunk spinning).

[KRviator]

Final report (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5776073/ao-2017-096_final.pdf) is out. Practice RPL flight test including recovery from incipient spins in an aircraft not designed for it. For undetermined reasons recovery was not completed/possible prior to impact after entering a fully developed spin.

One thing I noted though - the aircraft had a G1000, but no datalogger card. WTF not? They're simple SD cards for that aren't they? Even for debriefing students later it would have been beneficial.

[Sunfish]

kraviator, probably no g1000 data card because it can be used by CASA to punish you. people including instructors, do stupid stuff in aircraft sometimes and don’t wish to leave evidence.

[Capt Fathom]

people including instructors, do stupid stuff in aircraft sometimes and don’t wish to leave evidence.
Really? Don’t keep us in suspense any longer!

[Ixixly]

I hate reports like this, no blame apportioned to the ATSB by my saying that, there simply isn't enough information to really know why it happened but losing 2 lives is bad enough, losing 2 lives for no apparent reason is just salt in the wound.

I know there will be quite a few people around Archy who knew the instructor involved at varying levels and will hear about this report and find no real solace from it, if you're reading this, don't despair but if you do find yourself in a bad place then please talk to someone about it, that's what he would have wanted. There might not be any particular lesson to be learned here so use it to take a chance and reflect on yourselves and any areas you think you can improve in then go about working on it.

[machtuk]

So sad and so unesesary -:(
i hope others out there both instructors and students can learn from their mistakes.