Typhoon crash in Italy

[Alex Whittingham]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d8zSCIvByk

[Fonsini]

Always makes me feel sick to my stomach. Sympathies to the pilot and his family.

[atakacs]

Where? When?

[The B Word]

Tragic news.

More info here: https://theaviationist.com/2017/09/24/italian-eurofighter-typhoon-crashes-during-terracina-airshow-killing-test-pilot/

[gums]

Does not look like gee-loc, as nose was moving until impact. Looks more like the Hunter crash in England except speed over the top on this one seemed very high/altitude too low, like the Blue Angel crash a ways back. It also looked like he/she held the nose down a bit too long before pulling, and increasing speed the whole way, and may have been "playing" the level off altitude until too late.

My understanding of the Tiffie is it is very capable of high AoA, and this plane was not at a very high AoA upon impact. Maybe a gee limiter in play? Our Viper could not pull 9 gees at the max AoA, and our max AoA was very low compared to the F-22 and F-35 and SU-27 and........

Over-the-water stuff is not easy! The Blues have had a few close calls, but they practice over-water stuff more than most.

Need a Tiffie pilot to opine.

[just another jocky]

Tragic news.

[Fonsini]

Several different angles.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b66_1506278076

[Alber Ratman]

Tragic, Condolences to family and friends.

[Easy Street]

Looks very much like high onset rate g-loc to me. You can see a very aggressive increase in pitch rate as the nose reaches the vertical, presumably just as the GPWS triggers realisation of the situation; after a couple of seconds the pitch rate inexplicably drops to almost nothing. Onset as rapid as that causes g-loc with no warning symptoms, and there is no way that the pilot was 'playing the level off' when spearing through the minimum height like that. Notwithstanding, the primary cause appears likely yet again to be a missed gate on a rolling/vertical combination; yet again display flying takes its toll.

[AUTHENTICATE]

Sad, sad news.
Have to agree with gums wrt his thoughts. Typhoon can quite easily bite as it appears to have done on this occasion. What appears to be high speed, nose low, possibly with reheat still selected can only point to running out of turn performance as a result of aoa limiting into g limiting. Would be surprised if it’s g-loc/technical issues. Gate achieved but too fast? Only time will tell.

Thoughts with all those involved including those watching.

[gums]

You could be right, Easy.

I can see a very slight decrease in pitch rate right at the end, and maybe the pilot was still pulling a bit when unconscious. Unlike the Viper, looks like the Tiffie stick moves a bit.

My only gee-loc experience reflected most that we had in early Viper years. Student studly went from a few gees to 1 gee or maybe a bit less as we were pulling back into the "bandit" at our high 6. Both of us were looking over our shoulder and suddenly the gee went way down and I thot he was extending to gain some energy. When I looked forward, his helmet was banging off the canopy rail!! Heh heh. Our initial group had a few of those examples and one has been on TV several times.

Thing about gee-loc is not the total gee but the rate it increases unless you have "clinched up" before yanking. Rarely happens in a prolonged fight. I have a HUD video that showed me in a "break" and gee got to about 8.4 or so. I grunted first for maybe a half a second and then I only held the ge for 3 or 4 seconds. At 20 deg/sec or more turn rate, you do not need to hold it for very long.

Just saying.

[tartare]

Pretty sobering to watch.
Even if GLOC was/was not a factor I assume that given the rate of descent, the seat would have been outside it's envelope?
What happens when the handle is pulled in such a situation?
The seat departs the aircraft but just follows the flight profile of the aircraft?

[glad rag]

goes to show even the best can get caught.

Tartare there's a 60s video on YT called ejection vectors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxi_rqAW9vM

[Clandestino]

Well, without FDR data, it's hard to estimate when the seat envelope was exited. There was Thunderbirds' solo crash a few years ago, where the pilot made the gate on the top of the downward half-loop, problem was it was for the wrong, lower elevation field. He punched out relatively safely when he realized he could not complete maneuver above ground level.

https://youtu.be/alo_XWCqNUQ

[tartare]

Thanks chaps - will have a look at those resources.

[Fonsini]

Comparing the late pull out of a Typhoon at RAF Fairford may be relevant:

ZKo3DuP-NOg&feature=related

[A_Van]

Too many crashes, IMHO, during such shows. Probably rules should be tightened regarding minimum altitude for such manoeuvres and giving a larger margin if anything goes wrong.


This tragic crash is quite similar to the one, also happened in Italian skies in Sept. 1990 with Su-27 and a pilot who I knew well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wlnnZZsx2k (from 1'10" through 1'25").

[ORAC]

Qualified test pilot, over 2 years in his current post.

BREAKING: Italian Air Force Test Pilot Perishes In Mishap At Terracina Air Show ? Avgeekery.com ? News and stories by Aviation Professionals (http://www.avgeekery.com/breaking-italian-air-force-test-pilot-perishes-in-mishap-at-terracina-air-show/)

On Sunday September 24th 2017, 36 year-old Aeronautica Militare Italiana (AMI- Italian Air Force) Captain and test pilot Gabriele Orlandi was flying a demonstration routine in a Eurofighter F-2000A Typhoon fighter while participating in the Terracina Airshow located about 30 miles southeast of Rome on the Italian west coast. The pilot was reportedly flying F-2000A serial number MM7278 / AMI code RS-23 and assigned to the AMI’s Reparto Sperimentale Volo (RSV or Test Wing).

Orlandi’s demonstration flight appeared to spectators to be entirely routine until the jet reached the bottom of an elongated loop maneuver and was unable to recover from its dive at the bottom of the maneuver. As a result, the Typhoon crashed into the sea and disintegrated approximately 400 yards offshore at 1700 local time. The pilot was killed on impact, failing to even attempt to eject from the aircraft prior to making catastrophic contact with the water. The pilot’s body was recovered at sea 90 minutes after the mishap.

The show’s next and final scheduled performance, by Italy’s Frecce Tricolore precision flight demonstration team, was canceled. No cause has yet been determined for the crash, which now is under investigation.........

[Pace]

Eurofighter pilot attempting loop-the-loop in front of his parents and girlfriend dies after crashing into sea - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AYuaHNzgRRR2BBL-9kvT_uw

Very sad

[Airbubba]

Sad indeed :(, more condolences here:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/599928-typhoon-crash-italy.html

[WingsofRoffa]

Can somebody explain GLOC to a non-pilot?

[Chris Kebab]

Try here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-LOC

[Fokkeriaan]

Can somebody explain GLOC to a non-pilot?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-LOC

[Treble one]

A couple of questions if I may?


Does Typhoon not have an automated protection system to prevent G-LOC induced issues?


When its said that Typhoon can 'bite' what does that mean-isn't it almost impossible to depart from controlled flight due to the automation in the Flight control system?

[hunterxf382]

Awful tragedy indeed.... Saw several videos yesterday, and stills popping up in the media...

This one is the most haunting of them all - full reheat microseconds from the point of impact with the sea?

https://cdn.aviation-safety.net/photodata/199931_59c823b8aea3822016470_1935750506452017_1123948006_n.j pg

[jmelson]

Eurofighter pilot attempting loop-the-loop in front of his parents and girlfriend dies after crashing into sea - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AYuaHNzgRRR2BBL-9kvT_uw

Very sad
Oh boy, that reminds me of the F-18 crash in Bethalto, IL by Jeffrey Crutchfield in June 1996. He was practicing for an air show in the Czech Republic, and his boss and family were there.
He also had a Pitts Special that he did exhibition flying in on weekends. He went into a reverse half Cuban-8 maneuver and came over the top WAY too low. He had briefed with his boss to come over the top at 3500', but on this one he did it at 1500', way too low to recover. Due to rigging, the aircraft limited him to +4 G. He might have survived the crash, but hit a cinderblock garage and a large tree.

After a squabble over who would investigate (the Air Force owned the aircraft, but it was a civil flight on leaseback to McDonnell-Douglas from the Air Force) and so eventually the NTSB took over the investigation. I was fascinated with how such a massively experienced pilot could screw this up, so bought the NTSB report. Fascinating reading, not even a hint of a real explanation. (Crutchfield was a Navy top gun graduate, Navy test pilot, and then McDonnell-Douglas test pilot.)

[gums]

A very haunting picture, Hunter. GASP! Burner cooking and a late pull to show the crowd how low you could recover/not recover. A long vertical leg prolly in burner before the pull. I don't like it.


@Treble and others, RE: Gee-loc

The Wiki entry is flawed. The deal has to do with blood to the brain. No fresh blood, lala land.

We did not see a lot of complete loss of concsiousness before we had the jets that had high pitch rates and plenty of available gee.

The old deal was tunnel vision, then grey, then black. You could still hear, but that's it. The gee-loc we saw in the Viper was different. The victim went from "normal" to complete lights out in a few seconds.

I was there for one in back seat of a family model.

The medics found that the onset rate of the gee was a significant factor, and not total gee. If you clenched up from neck to chest to gut just a second or two before yanking, then you did not go to lala land. Been there many times and most were as an IP and the stoopid nugget would yank when I wasn't expecting it. I never blacked out, but I was used to stoopid moves by the nuggets and could clench my neck quickly to trap blood in the brain.

[AUTHENTICATE]

TO, to answer your questions;

1. Although there are several systems including GPWS, Auto slow speed recovery (anti-departure) and a disorientaion recovery facilty (think auto-UP recovery), only the latter two are linked to the Flight Controls. In short, there is nothing to monitor or counter the effects of g-loc ala F16. Likewise, ASLR/DRF don’t use GPWS to prevent the jet flying into the ground when ‘she’ is in control.

2. Despite being a high performance jet, mishandling will still result in CFIT. In this particular case, nose low at high speed would quickly see the g-limit being the limiting factor not alpha. The acceleration of the jet in reheat, aided further by ‘gods g’, will only see the turn radius increase despite being at maximum g.

In short, if fighting single circle with terra firma, then fly at min radius speed; a speed much less than that assessed in this event.

[Hotel Tango]

Sad indeed but he's not the first to die in those circumstances. Why oh why do they do it?

[B2N2]

Sad indeed but he's not the first to die in those circumstances. Why oh why do they do it?

It’s a fighter plane..
Pilots are in the military to fly fighter planes and bombers in war. People get killed in war, also pilots.
Train as you fight and fight as you train. Every military since the Dawn of Time has had Training deaths.
What do you mean why do they do it?

[megan]

Cause of accident solved, news last night. "The aircraft didn't pick up enough speed to be able to pull back up in the air". Word for word.

[Airbubba]

Oh boy, that reminds me of the F-18 crash in Bethalto, IL by Jeffrey Crutchfield in June 1996.

...I was fascinated with how such a massively experienced pilot could screw this up, so bought the NTSB report. Fascinating reading, not even a hint of a real explanation. (Crutchfield was a Navy top gun graduate, Navy test pilot, and then McDonnell-Douglas test pilot.)

NTSB report narrative of that crash online here:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001208X05912&ntsbno=CHI96FA211&akey=1

[tartare]

Lot of thrust in the Typhoon.
Haven't flown in the real thing - but did fly the sim at Farnborough.
"A touch faster," says the Chief Test Pilot.
Barely nudged the throttles, I swear.
Grey haired, disapproving look.
"Well done. You've just smashed every window in the South East."

[TBM-Legend]

RIP fellow aviator..

[Basil]

It’s a fighter plane..
Pilots are in the military to fly fighter planes and bombers in war. People get killed in war, also pilots.
Train as you fight and fight as you train. Every military since the Dawn of Time has had Training deaths.
What do you mean why do they do it?
It wasn't a combat manoeuvre. We all know that a roll and pull through results in high speed and uses a lot of sky.

[Treble one]

TO, to answer your questions;

1. Although there are several systems including GPWS, Auto slow speed recovery (anti-departure) and a disorientaion recovery facilty (think auto-UP recovery), only the latter two are linked to the Flight Controls. In short, there is nothing to monitor or counter the effects of g-loc ala F16. Likewise, ASLR/DRF don’t use GPWS to prevent the jet flying into the ground when ‘she’ is in control.

2. Despite being a high performance jet, mishandling will still result in CFIT. In this particular case, nose low at high speed would quickly see the g-limit being the limiting factor not alpha. The acceleration of the jet in reheat, aided further by ‘gods g’, will only see the turn radius increase despite being at maximum g.

In short, if fighting single circle with terra firma, then fly at min radius speed; a speed much less than that assessed in this event.


Thank you AUTHENTICATE for taking the time to answer.

[EAP86]

We all know that a roll and pull through results in high speed and uses a lot of sky.

I think this is key. Typhoon is a slippy beast and will accelerate easily from being incidence limited (best turn rates) to acceleration limited. Burner is the last thing you want. The panic pull bit of the stick travel could help (gives more incidence up to a higher load limit) but may not be enough depending on circumstances. Perhaps he waited too long before the Martin Baker option?

EAP

[TelsBoy]

What a horrible accident - saw the video last night, sickening :(


Condolences to the pilot and family.

[[email protected]]

What do you mean why do they do it? I think that was meant as a question about why do pilots persist with trying to complete manoeuvres when they don't have enough height/speed/didn't make the gates.

How does an experienced and presumably talented pilot feel compelled to show how good he is in such display scenarios?

[DIBO]

Lady pilot unfortunately..
Errr... incorrect
Indeed
http://www.pprune.org/italian-forum/599924-precipita-eurofighter-terracina.html#post9902634

[gr4techie]

A couple of questions if I may?


Does Typhoon not have an automated protection system to prevent G-LOC induced issues?


When its said that Typhoon can 'bite' what does that mean-isn't it almost impossible to depart from controlled flight due to the automation in the Flight control system?

It doesn't have a fully automatic "hands off" system. But a button the pilot can press. Then the flying control computers will then automatically get the Typhoon straight and level (or slightly nose up? I can't remember?)
I think it's called Disoriented Recovery Function.

To answer you second question, a lot of aircraft have flying control computers that won't but the aircraft into a stall or spin. I believe this stall preventer once caused an Airbus to crash during a low and slow flypast when the computers prevented an increase in pitch as the Airbus was approaching a forest at the end of the runway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

[EAP86]

There are aspects of the crew systems which help protect aircrew against the effects of normal acceleration: full coverage anti-g trousers, pressure breathing with g and chest counter pressure garment, etc. The FCS can also be programmed to slug the g onset rate but this isn't considered a good thing for military fast jets since it runs counter to the agility requirements.

EAP

[Pontius Navigator]

A Van has a point, you don't need to scrape the ground to impress. B2N2, the Vulcan crash at Chicago and the Nimrod crash in Canada were pure display crashes, crashes that never occurred in routine flying.

There seems to be a little gremlin that causes some to push too hard to impress. Joe Public is ignorant of most display dynamics and would be quite happy to see the aircraft and not expect it to display at the edges of its envelope.

[Treble one]

It doesn't have a fully automatic "hands off" system. But a button the pilot can press. Then the flying control computers will then automatically get the Typhoon straight and level (or slightly nose up? I can't remember?)
I think it's called Disoriented Recovery Function.

To answer you second question, a lot of aircraft have flying control computers that won't but the aircraft into a stall or spin. I believe this stall preventer once caused an Airbus to crash during a low and slow flypast when the computers prevented an increase in pitch as the Airbus was approaching a forest at the end of the runway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296


Thank you gr4techie


I had thought maybe that if a pilot G-LOC ed that the release in pressure from the stick would be detected and this function would be automatically activated by the on board computers. It would seem not.

[gums]

Salute!

Still waiting to have an actual Tiffie pilot contribute.

Seems to be that if an experienced pilot prangs a seemingly full-up jet, and I flew one of the type, then I would want to know everything or at least help with "rumour control".
============
Over on the F-16.net there's info about the Viper "recovery" system should Hal determine you had better do something or you'll die!!! I and many of we early Viper pilots voted against this back in 1980 or 1981. The technology wasn't there and we also wanted to have the nose down for weapon delivery and knew we would recover before impact unless we "pressed" ( as Pontious implied). The newer technology and the detection of "reasonable" impact criteria for Hal to take over seems to have the support of most Viper pilots.

I have HUD video of a super fighter pilot that went too far and you don't see the sage brush until 2 seconds before impact. Accident investigation figured he might have made it by a few hundred feet if he pulled when the large, flashing "x" in the HUD appeared.

RE: g-suits
The gee-loc can happen if you pull real hard, real fast and have not trapped blood in your brain. The new suits and slight over pressure help for sustained fights, but you can still stop your brain if the blood drains out in a second!!!

RE: demo parameters
The numbers do not lie and they allow a margin of error to allow for weather, winds and maybe even pilot performance!! The Thunderbird crash and the Blue Angel crash and the F-18 crash in St Louis years ago and the Hunter crash and possibly this one probably share the same cause - failure to achieve the initial entry conditions for the maneuver. There's also the possiblity of pilot actions even tho the maneuver started O.K.

Look up some simple equations for turn radius versus speed and gee. Regardless of your AoA ( that you may need to get the gee), the laws of physics/math are still valid.

With all gee directed toward the center of the turn, you can get a rough idea of turn radius using: r = v squared/a where a is gee*32.2 and v is in ft/sec

Work this out for the Viper in a horizontal turn pulling 9 gees at 360 knots and you will be surprised.

A sad day in Italy, and pray not to see another like it for a long, long time.

Gums sends...

[Easy Street]

Someone asked "why do they do it": a very good question. Of my 6 friends or acquaintances that have been killed while flying, one was shot down, one suffered a technical fault and the other 4 were all either displaying or preparing to display. Another 2 had career-ending occurrences on display duties. This seems wholly disproportionate to me. Are we taking too little risk in every other aspect of flying, or too much in displaying?

[Pontius Navigator]

Easy Street, very much deviation but a basic question: What is the purpose of an air display?

A station sponsored display was at one time to achieve a maximum charity take for the glory of said station commander. PR, recruiting and crowd enjoyment were spin offs but hardly core business.

How much does an air display cost? Big bucks. How many recruits join the air force each display season? Not a lot. Big Bucks divided by Not a Lot is not a very good cot/benefit. Throw in training time for practice and the diversion of that time from real training. Then consider the cost of just a single crash.

There are probably more civilian displays in UK now than military ones but the military still perform their.

It is probable that more recruits come through exposure through the Air Training Corps and CCF than seeing an airshow. I was 10 when I saw my first impromptu display at Hooton Park and a fg off when I saw my second.

So, What is the purpose of an air display today?

[wiggy]

Easy Street

. Are we taking too little risk in every other aspect of flying, or too much in displaying?

Looking back (many years I hasten to add) at my cohort from basic days I've come up with similar attrition figures to yours. My feeling back in the day, and is now, is there is no mystery to this, it is simply that display flying is just utterly unforgiving. I'm pretty sure I bust base a few times ACMing in the F-4...and I saw base height stuffed more that a few times in my basic Instructing days but base was at 5 or 10 k.... I had fairly aggressive display with regards to negative g in the JP (if that is possible) that I wouldn't have dreamt taking down to almost ground level. I always had a fairly wide yellow streak down the middle of my back and reckoned if you rolled the dice often enough display flying at fairly low level your number was going to come up....not because of negligence or lack of ability, but simply because the display flying environment was utterly unforgiving of even the smallest error. Whilst in the mob I lost mates in display accidents ( one in the Reds, two more in the Abingdon F-4, one in a Meteor) and even though I left the high energy stuff three decades back I have continued to lose or seen colleagues seriously injured doing display flying in their spare time ( warbirds, vintage fast jets)...

[Rosevidney1]

Letting the public see where their tax goes? But remember to charge an outrageous entry fee!

[tartare]

Gums, or those here who've actually driven fast jets - a question.
Would the difficulty in visually judging height over water possibly have been a contributing factor here?
When flying such a sequence, how much of a HUD and instrument scan do you keep going - I would have thought you'd aim to nail the gates very closely and would be constantly cross checking the picture outside with what the HUD or instruments were showing you?
Is it a temptation to get locked into looking outside the cockpit and thinking - "...yeah that visually looks/feels pretty much like the right height - I've got enough room."?

[wiggy]

Not relevant by the looks of it if in this case but I always felt that rolling gates were the hardest to define (or even enumerate) .... as for pitching.....what IMHO also needed to be thought through was the realisation that even with what looks a straight forward pitching manoeuvre it wasn't just an attitude and a height, there was also an IAS involved..as one of my colleagues sadly discovered....(he got the height, he got the attitude, but stuffed the speed up and continued past the verical too fast)

(Again I'll emphasise this is very much the POV of a ham fisted individual who never did an aeros sequence in a jet below 5000' .....but lost friends that did)

[Busta]

Hi Wiggy,

Couldn't agree more, if you do this kind of stuff long enough eventually you will step on your dick, we've all seen chums leave us earlier than expected.

I suppose even during raging peace we'll lose a few; luckily I manged 20 years with just a couple of "minors".

T+9 See you in November?

[wiggy]

Hi Wiggy,..

T+9 See you in November?

Hope so kind Sir, thanks for the reminder, as you know missed the last couple (long story).....

[gums]

Salute!

@ Tart.....

Yeppers, the water will bite you compared to good old Earth.

We lost one over the Great Salt Lake when zero wind, overcast and the water was like a mirror. Some "chop" really helps.

You really have to fly those low routines as if on instruments.

Gums sends...

[TBM-Legend]

Don't forget the Hunter prang recently...

The punters want colour, movement and noise not accidents! Fairly simple really..

No showboating..

[glad rag]

Don't forget the Hunter prang recently...

The punters want colour, movement and noise not accidents! Fairly simple really..

No showboating..

Who was in the boat?

You know, the one in the picture.

[Pontius Navigator]

Letting the public see where their tax goes? But remember to charge an outrageous entry fee!

Quite, as the aim is to minimise costs and maximize revenue. Certainly in military displays there was much creative accounting. At one show we spent a monumental amount on the aircrew beer tent. The aim was to make the aircrew want to come back the following year - it worked.

Joe Public also patronized the public beer tent. The aim was a day out with tat stores, play ground, food hall, the display was very secondary.