Focus Night

[plainpilot11]

Any info on the Hocus Pocus night and the line we were fed from the union on the dire straits the company is in?

[cxorcist]

Any info on the Hocus Pocus night and the line we were fed from the union on the dire straits the company is in?

Yep, prepare to be disappointed.

[morningcoffee]

So the auditors report that the market has been ok with for 60 years has now got the ok from the AOA. Who knew?

[DropKnee]

Any info on the Hocus Pocus night and the line we were fed from the union on the dire straits the company is in?
Standby to get it all over your face and in your eyes.

[Freehills]

Was there at least the courtesy offer of a reach around?

[Farman Biplane]

Let me guess, more pie in the sky, utopian dreaming and strategic ideals about changing the company managers culture/mindset?
Meanwhile the countdown to launch has begun in the tactical arena and we haven't even amassed the troops, let alone motivated them and outlined our tactical goals!
Doomed I say,what a shame.

[azhkman]

If they say dire straights, direct them here:
Income Statement: 00293 - Financial Reports for Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd - MSN Money (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/stockdetails/financials/fi-134.1.293.HKG.00293)

Net Income:
2013 = $2.6b
2014 = $3.1b
2015 = $6b
2016 = -$.6b

Where did it go?

Balance Sheet (Cash & Short Term Investments):
End of the Year 2016: $21.1b

It would be best if you demonstrate the 'impact' your ask would have on these numbers, but realistically, numbers like that, they cannot claim "Dire Straights".

[RAT Management]

For the last couple of weeks you have all been well lubed by the propaganda.... So tonight I present you the ">>>>PINEAPPLE<<<<". This is the "fruit" of our efforts and guess where we want to put it?


Do you really need to go?


It aint going to be pretty! :ok:

[Uberskyjockey]

Many of us have been thru this sort of thing before both in this company and previous employers. The current tactics by the company are well known and rehearsed. They are not original, just outdated colonial bullying strategies, denounced by serious business practices the world over. So fear not.

What we need to do is act and act immediately.

1. The President and full Committee should offer their resignations immediately in preparation for a war council. Totally ineffective and ill equipped to negotiate the union should now employ professional negotiators to represent us.( Ryanair pilots took this action today ). Having not made a statement to date is inexcusable. And not a single disciplinary action has been taken against members ignoring the training ban.This shows weakness and poor leadership. Originally a video club and now a cheap source of loss of licence cover the HKAOA is not fit for purpose.

2. Our local pilot colleagues will not support any industrial action. So count them out.

3. The Second officers are wet behind the ears and just glad not to be bush flying in Papua. Unless someone creates an App to tell them how to protect their careers they have little idea what to do. Count them out.

4. Based pilots and KA pilots will be targeted next year if the current plans succeed. Divide and conquer. Count them out.

This leaves the HKG based pilots with 10 years or more invested in CX to do the work.

It goes without saying that the threat of any new terms will cause significant stress and warrant significant time off for every pilot affected.

A statement in the local press today, giving advance notice to the traveling public that there are very likely to be major service disruptions over the busy Christmas holidays is a given.

Captains should think long and hard before giving sectors away. Recency would then have to be rostered in the sims.

The list of positive action is endless, legal and needed NOW. The leadership so lacking from the AOA is out there, we just need to
turn the key.

[VR-HFX]

Why leave all that cash on the balance sheet of a publicly listed company when with a little hedge you can move it somewhere else?

[cxorcist]

Why leave all that cash on the balance sheet of a publicly listed company when with a little hedge you can move it somewhere else?

I'm really starting to think this is real. Where did the cash go? We need to know. Who is profiting from the calamitous fuel hedges?

[Dan Winterland]

That trail is well hidden. You won't find out where the money went. And you can be sure that we won't be told.

[betpump5]

I'm not being funny but if I ran a company that had p1ssed away a few billion or worse, why on earth would I show the books (uncooked or otherwise) to an financial analyst whose purpose is to see whether I'm telling porkies??

I wasn't at the Focus Night but was this elephant in the room question asked?

[cxorcist]

That trail is well hidden. You won't find out where the money went. And you can be sure that we won't be told.

Well hidden trail... No doubt. So is that similar to money laundering?

[joblow]

Focus nights , it brings back nightmares of 1999 and the garbage that the company fed us back in those days , unfortunately the troops were not strong enough to stand up and be counted and as a result here we are again

[Dragon69]

unfortunately the troops were not strong enough to stand up and be counted and as a result here we are again

Judging by some of the posts on the AOA forum nothing has really changed.

I would also go as far as to say this new AoA leader is reminding me of MG.

[cxorcist]

Amen!!!

+1

Your turn STW, dispute that. I can hardly wait.

[Progress Wanchai]

I'm not being funny but if I ran a company that had p1ssed away a few billion or worse, why on earth would I show the books (uncooked or otherwise) to an financial analyst whose purpose is to see whether I'm telling porkies??

I wasn't at the Focus Night but was this elephant in the room question asked?


Unfortunately I think the truth is more dire than some would like to believe. Hoping these muppets have the competence to pull off a major conspiracy and fraud is simply wishful thinking. The fact is they are muppets who had no more idea of where the price of fuel was heading than you or I. They gambled big simply because they can with no chance of personal loss but a 50 percent chance of personal gain in massive, unprecedented bonuses. There's nothing in the books worth hiding other than a 23 billion dollar embarrassment that the whole world knows and laughs about.

They aren't master criminals. They are incompetent.
But hey, if you can sleep easier thinking these people are brilliant then don't let me stop you.

[cxorcist]

Fair points, but if they destroy the package for pilots, what is worth saving here? If they honestly think pilot concessions are all that is standing between success and failure at CX, then the place is going down anyways. No savings we can give them will spare the Company from Darwin's theory. They'll have to adapt without me on this one.

[crwkunt roll]

For the last couple of weeks you have all been well lubed by the propaganda.... So tonight I present you the ">>>>PINEAPPLE<<<<". This is the "fruit" of our efforts and guess where we want to put it?


Do you really need to go?


It aint going to be pretty! http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Go where......?

[crwkunt roll]

I wasn't at the Focus Night but was this elephant in the room question asked?
The question was asked, and the accountant blatantly said that it didn't matter squat who the Hedge was with so stop fussing about it. DS then added that he hoped the hedge was with Swire, as then they could continue to run CX at a loss for a few years and keep us in a job, who knows?????????

[Sam Ting Wong]

Amen!!!

+1

Your turn STW, dispute that. I can hardly wait.

Probably all true. Show me one post where I dispute anything Rod said.

I knew from the start the company will not give in.

If you or Rod are "buying" what the company now says, what relevance has that? I certainly don't and I never have.

Which is why I voted in favour of the TA when it was on the table.

And you and Rod and many others didn't , instead you were busy insulting me,
and still not a word of regret.

Classy.

[cxorcist]

The question was asked, and the accountant blatantly said that it didn't matter squat who the Hedge was with so stop fussing about it. DS then added that he hoped the hedge was with Swire, as then they could continue to run CX at a loss for a few years and keep us in a job, who knows?????????

So, did the accountant further intimate that the fuel hedge is somehow our problem now?

Furthermore, is this pineapple going to save the Company or just fatten AT's bonus?

[Uberskyjockey]

Lets take a leaf out of the Ryanair pilots actions. Non unionized with over 80 bases and 4200 pilots throughout Europe they have acted within 48 hours to have management backing down and offering huge pay increases to keep the show on the road.

[Uberskyjockey]

What a waste of time.
Committees position 'same old same old' and not a single inspirational message for the troops.
HKAOA not fit for purpose.

[SweepTheLeg]

Unfortunately I think the truth is more dire than some would like to believe. Hoping these muppets have the competence to pull off a major conspiracy and fraud is simply wishful thinking. The fact is they are muppets who had no more idea of where the price of fuel was heading than you or I. They gambled big simply because they can with no chance of personal loss but a 50 percent chance of personal gain in massive, unprecedented bonuses. There's nothing in the books worth hiding other than a 23 billion dollar embarrassment that the whole world knows and laughs about.

They aren't master criminals. They are incompetent.
But hey, if you can sleep easier thinking these people are brilliant then don't let me stop you.

I'm with Progress Wanchai. What's with the crazy who's-on-the-other-side-of-the-fuel-hedge conspiracy?

Occam's razor anyone?? Management at this airline are plain incompetent. They can't even run make money with a monopoly in Hong Kong, yet alone come up with some devious ingenious scheme to steal billions from their employees.

[OK4Wire]

Close, but I think you are still incorrect, STL.

I reckon London came up with that idea. Our incompetents simply did what they were told.

[Freehills]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

[arse]

It would seem reasonably fair to assist the company with some form of concessions. After all, it is in our own interest that the company survives and thrives.

HOWEVER, ... BUT, ... HANG ON A SEC:

A big NO to permanent concessions! They are after immediate 10% savings from the FOP workforce. They want that from a combination of more productivity, frozen salaries, reduced housing and reduced MPF.

Concessions could be made, but only for a limited time. The obvious limited would be when the fuel hedges expire. Moving forward from that, as the company returns to profit, formula need to be in place to return the concessions via increased profit share to those who helped.

That would be a genuine WIN/WIN.

[Liam Gallagher]

Arse,

Remove your head from your username.

There was a time I would have been sympathetic to helping the company out on the promise of payback. However, 2009 killed that after the backflip on 25 year Housing and them short-changing the Captains 10%.

Please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting we get it in writing. RPs were in writing and look what happened to them. Any concessions you give are permanent dispite what's written in the brochure.

Also, let's not forget that Alan Joyce got concessions from his work force to "save" Qantas. A few years later his pay doubled to $AUD 24.6m, about $HK150m.

Let's not kid ourselves as to what's about to happen. You are going to asked to do more for less so Management can prosper. You are probably going to accept this because you fear the consequences if you don't agree.

How does the quote go?.... Oh yeah... "To my bonus"

[Staggers]

Has anyone led by example on salaries, pfund, housing at board level?

[arse]

Liam

Sincere thanks for your completely BS reply.

In keeping with your "add nothing to the discussion" style; I would say that if anybody's head is anywhere, it is yours in the sand! At the very least blinded by bitterness.

Yes. Lets keep doing what we have for the last 25+ years. Result: LOSE/LOSE

Yes. Not returning 100% of the Captains SLS concession was pathetic.

Yes. Not honoring the 25 years housing was unconscionable.

Yes. Alan Joyce is a dick.

I am not suggesting your little Timmy writes any agreement. Perhaps professionals. Wow, ... what a concept!

I will assume you are smart enough to know the definition of insanity.

[OK4Wire]

Arse,

I suspect you are too young to remember our very own DFO's claim that "the contract is binding in honour only".

Liam is right.

[Max Reheat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4905876/Ryanair-boss-Michael-O-Leary-faces-shareholders.html

[Ipad]

I agree entirely that the board was incompetent in their decision to hedge the way they did. If we give concessions I would like to see the board give similar. Lock them in to pay reductions, no bonuses, until we see serious profits again. Is that unreasonable or are they just all talk and only want the rest of the staff to suffer from their incompetance?

[arse]

Dear Mr Rod: A post flight beer or two? Good on you. Good for the soul.

Mr Wire: You would be very wrong about that. :)

Gentleman: I understand your craziness. Life would be very boring without it.

Mr Ipad: Excellent idea. Very reasonable.

[Liam Gallagher]

Yep Arse,

I know the definition of insanity, it's agreeing concessions with this lot on the promise of some future reward and then being shocked when the future reward doesn't happen... 25 year Housing, Instructor Pilots, Promise to settle Paris, settling the SHP payments with FAU but not the pilots, HPE talks and then on Day 1 announce double SOs.

Interesting how you saw my comment about Joyce as him just being a dick. I used him as example as to how this game is played. Employees grant concessions, management reap the rewards... I don't think that makes him a dick....

Perhaps if you read my posts a bit more closely you might appreciate them a bit more... Just saying....

[arse]

Hi Liam

Quick review. Having made a perfectly reasonable suggestion, your response so far has been to whine, bitch, moan and rant. Oh, ... and throw in a few indirect personal attacks. Excellent work!

I can only assume you have no positive suggestions to make, so therefore must be happy to take the incoming pineapple, ... while you whine, bitch, moan and rant of course? You must be such an inspiration to work with! Fantastic.

In relation to Qantas and Joyce: A few years back the Qantas pilots did exactly what I am suggesting. They gave concessions, in return for increasing future profit sharing, when certain levels were triggered. Now that Qantas has recorded their second largest profit ever, the pilots have done reasonably well! Certainly better than making permanent concessions for no return.

I am fully aware that you are so blinkered and disillusioned and there is no logical or rational argument you will accept. Just saying.

PS: I apoligise for the unreasonable amount of sarcasm. Not my first choice, but it seems to be a language you understand! The irony of that statement is not lost on me! :)

PPS: Would you be interested in a WIN/WIN outcome?

[Liam Gallagher]

Arse,

The Qantas pilots have done reasonably well? Really?

Want to put some numbers to that? Start from when Joyce locked them out.

[Dragon69]

Always amazes me how some are so easily fooled by the company propaganda, even by those who have been here a long time and have seen first hand how deceitful and immoral this management is. And yet like a beaten pathetic dog they come back for more punishment thinking there will be a win/win outcome by giving concessions to a management that has continually year on year given themselves huge bonuses and pay increases. You arse are a spineless cheap whore.

[arse]

So, ... my advocating concessions now, ... for equivocal returns later; rather than permanent cuts, makes me a spinless cheap whore. I did laugh at that.

Liam: I'm not going to waste my time educating you, when I know full well that you are incapable of rational thought or discussion. By the way, nice avoidance of the question.

The competitive relationship between the company and its aircrew is at the core of the problem and will result in the pineapple that is coming. I am fully aware that the company holds the majority of the responsibility for this. However, our our incompetent representation has not helped.

[Liam Gallagher]

Sorry Arse,

I missed your question; would I be interested in a win/win? Yeah, I'm interested in gold-plated unicorn droppings as well, but they don't exist either.

Listen Arse, the DFO says she wants at least 10% savings and reading the tea leaves, the ARAPA will be gone by the end of the year. Right, that's the DFO's win and my loss. Now what would my win be in return?

A first world D&G? I don't intend getting D&G'd and that don't pay the mortgage.
Merge seniority lists with KA? Total respect for the KA boys and girls, but "no thanks", doesn't pay the mortgage.
Promise of Profit Share; If only I could believe them.... And doesn't pay the mortgage.
A JCR/Company Policy/ smokey mirrors rostering system.... Doesn't pay the mortgage and didn't I buy that in 1999
Smaller pay cut, because they cut my P Fund... Does pay the mortgage, but I have to work longer.
Raise the EFP threshold. Please don't tell me it's not a pay cut....

So please enlighten me, what's the win for me in a 10% pay cut and a slash to the ARAPA? The satisfaction that I funded Anna's bonus?

Yeah, I'm being negative. If you want positive, here's a true win/win, open the Bases!! But they don't want to do that because they will have nothing to sell us in a few years when they want another round of paycuts.

Intellectual enough for yo' Arse? Now educate me on the win/ win at Qantas ..... I dare you.

[controlledrest]

That's what Anna wrote in one of her updates long time ago - you have to prepared to move to HKG or you are in the wrong airline, remember that one ?





Anna, I know I'm in the wrong ******* airline! Because of the golden handcuffs I can't change! Get rid of seniority!

[Dragon69]

Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.

Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.

[Avinthenews]

Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.

Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.

The entire planet functions perfectly well without it, and no the doctor who's the cheapest or the lawyer who's the cheapest doesn't get the job.

The point is many would have left already had they been able to get a similarly paid job elsewhere, CX might pay the most but if they want people to stay they have to provide pay and conditions accordingly, the cheap guy may take the job but as soon as he realises he's worth something with x thousand hours and a brand new 350 rating he's gone! How long do you think CX could afford to be a training airline? They are now to a much lessor extent because the rusty handcuffs stop many from leaving.

Seniority within the company would always be there like any other job, however you could give three months notice whenever you felt like it in a 30-40yr career, what a novel idea. You might even return to CX after having brought a family up elsewhere.

[Dan Winterland]

Lots of jobs no longer require seniority. They aren't the best, but the number is increasing and the Ts and Cs are improving. Moving from left back to right if you change employers is no longer necessary. The CX golden handcuffs are losing their shine.

[CCA]

Lots of jobs no longer require seniority. They aren't the best, but the number is increasing and the Ts and Cs are improving. Moving from left back to right if you change employers is no longer necessary. The CX golden handcuffs are losing their shine.

We should abandon the left seat right seat rubbish.

This capt first second officer rubbish is from Juan Trippe and his flying boat days with PAN AM wanting it to be like a cruise liner and this isn't the military.

Simple you're a pilot the senior more experienced one sits in the left and is designated commander I guess using the above examples there would be a senior doctor in a group surgery and a senior lawyer in large case. Obviously you would still need to reach a minimum standard before being checked out in the left seat. And once again make jumping from airline to airline a no brainer.

[Dragon69]

The entire planet functions perfectly well without it, and no the doctor who's the cheapest or the lawyer who's the cheapest doesn't get the job.The big difference being in a given country you have thousands of hospitals, law firms employing small number of doctors, lawyers. So a doctor, lawyer would have plenty of options, and seniority would be meaningless. In the same given country you would have one or two legacy carriers employing thousands of pilots. So a pilot would have very limited options.



Seniority within the company would always be there like any other job, however you could give three months notice whenever you felt like it in a 30-40yr career, what a novel idea. You might even return to CX after having brought a family up elsewhere. I don't understand the above comment! So you ok for a company to have a seniority system internally where upgrades, promotions are based on DOJ, but you happy for same company to employ a direct entry Captain and bump all the First Officers? Is that what you are saying?

Even now you can still give your three months notice, plenty of carriers in China, Middle East, India hiring direct entry Captains, what is stopping you? Oh I see you want your seniority number at CX secure for life as you test the waters elsewhere, because you are special!!!

Show me one industry where you have a small number of companies that employ a large number of employees, all with similar credentials, where their salaries have kept up to those in other professions. Factory workers? Bus drivers? What makes you think that because you are a pilot that without seniority the salary packages offered by other carriers will be better? There will always be someone willing to do it for less, that has already been proven. You think a a brand new 777 rated Captain will not come to CX to join as a direct entry Captain and fly for the same salary as an FO? You think CX is going to care that this individual has less than 500 PIC time on the 777?

[controlledrest]

Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.

Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.



Protection???

I have seen direct entry commands and FOs, type changes, leave and staff travel all outside seniority when it suits the mis-managers. We have no protection.

Economists talk of 'mobility of labour' - the movement of employees seeking new positions for whatever reason. Seniority is a massive impediment to our mobility. Without the ability to move we just touch our toes and take another pineapple. It will keep on happening until we have the ability to move to a better place. Simple.

[controlledrest]

The question was asked, and the accountant blatantly said that it didn't matter squat who the Hedge was with so stop fussing about it. DS then added that he hoped the hedge was with Swire, as then they could continue to run CX at a loss for a few years and keep us in a job, who knows?????????



It does matter who the hedge was with. If CX took it with a Swire related company then it is just a way of sucking billions out of CX without having to give any to the other share holders, the company isn't really in a bad position financially and one could argue we are well run by crafty bastards.

If the hedge is with a non-Swire company then our bonus earning mis-managers have cost us billions, they are grossly incompetent and should be sacked.


On the plus side, either way the hedge runs out by the end of 2018. With it behind us we will be back in black.

[Weary traveller]

For those that still believe our "seniority" system is the bane of our existence I'd offer that with the emphasis on "cheap" when Airlines recruit nowadays our experience is neither recognised nor appreciated. In fact, I'd suggest it's a handicap to them. Airlines have proven they can crew aircraft with cadets and other inexperienced crew and (so far) not create new holes in hills so (tragically) experience is just a loophole that companies would rather avoid in order that they sustain the current MO of 'pathetic packages for aviators'. Don't approve, but simply recognise it as the way things are.