Prestwick-2

[goldeneye]

Is the main cause of the loss due to the running costs of the terminal, or is it more deeply rooted than that.

Could PIK with assistance from the Scottish Govt look at a new terminal akin to what Inverness or even Southend have. Would be more fit for purpose and running costs should be reduced some what from the aging existing building.

[mwm991]

Is the main cause of the loss due to the running costs of the terminal, or is it more deeply rooted than that.

Could PIK with assistance from the Scottish Govt look at a new terminal akin to what Inverness or even Southend have. Would be more fit for purpose and running costs should be reduced some what from the aging existing building.

Southend's new terminal cost £10m, nevermind the additional demolition costs for the current PIK terminal.

All that just to build another loss making public funded airport with a few FR flights to med destinations would be ridiculous, IMO.

[goldeneye]

Southend's new terminal cost £10m, nevermind the additional demolition costs for the current PIK terminal.

All that just to build another loss making public funded airport with a few FR flights to med destinations would be ridiculous, IMO.

What would you propose to do, as the political will at the Scottish Govt is to keep the airport open and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[beyond the boundary]

So you would take maybe 3 Ryanair's a day, a freighter if lucky, no regular USAF?

What about the days around 2006/7, when PIK was supporting several daily 747s, North American 767s, high levels of USAF (granted, during 2 full scale wars in the Middle East), booming Ryanair, a brilliant charter programme?


All the traffic under Hudson team was self generated. Yes the era you speak of was exceptional, but the majority of that fell in Prestwicks lap as you say due to the conflicts in the Middle East.

I hope to god there is life in the old dog yet, but as the days, weeks and years go on, I am sadly becoming less and less convinced.

[Skipness One Echo]

The airport just needs one big announcement at the terminal to get the place buzzing again and I imagine they will be working hard to achieve that goal and then some.
Like what? Really, like what? This is a fantasy. By all means support your local team but please, @TRN1K, select one airline that you honestly think will drive sufficient passangers through PIK to make money.

Matthew Hudson was a commercially aware businessman who I believe sunk some of his own money into PIK / ACAP. He was realistic and pretty ruthless to save the airport from closure. This allowed the business to be sold to Stagecoach and later Infratil who between them, completely lost control of costs.
Main deck cargo is going away, Air France are not replacing their last two B777Fs, Singapore are folding Cargo back into mainline as it shrinks, Polar and Atlas have gone. I wasn't suggesting replacing the terminal, I was suggesting building a slightly more fit for purpose GA facility on Apron G. Close the terminal and sell off the land.

I hope to god there is life in the old dog yet, but as the days, weeks and years go on, I am sadly becoming less and less convinced.
Agreed, I was a passionate supporter for years then moved away and saw the big old world. Kinda heart breaking to see what's happenend but this can't go on.

[Harry Wayfarers]

All the traffic under Hudson team was self generated. Yes the era you speak of was exceptional, but the majority of that fell in Prestwicks lap as you say due to the conflicts in the Middle East.

I hope to god there is life in the old dog yet, but as the days, weeks and years go on, I am sadly becoming less and less convinced.

In 1982, by reports, Ascension Island became the world's busiest airport but I don't believe very much is happening there now!

[V12]

Agreed, I was a passionate supporter for years then moved away and saw the big old world. Kinda heart breaking to see what's happenend but this can't go on.

If it was a dog, and you were kind, you'd call the vet...

However I do wonder if the taxpayers cash could be better spent on creating new jobs elsewhere. There is an inevitability here which means that every month they keep in operational as it is, that's less money available for investing in jobs elsewhere.

[Aftershock]

As an avid supporter and former employee of Prestwick Airport(not Greer or Landmark I may add) it breaks my heart to see the state the airport finds itself in.
Forgetting the passenger side of things, Prestwick Handling was meant to be the saviour of the airport.

Unfortunately Belfast, Glasgow and Edinburgh are all having other ideas. I cannot remember Glasgow or Edinburgh having so much military traffic as they do now. Traffic that once upon a time was Prestwick regulars.


Belfast (Global Trek) are on a whole new level however. In the last 2 months they have scored upwards of 50 USAF C-130`s. This is not to mention US Navy C40`s and USAF C-40`s regularly going through the Irish airport. The majority of this traffic previously used Prestwick.

Incredibly Prestwick have an exclusive military fuel contract that should have the US military flocking to the airport in there droves. However quite the opposite is happening.

Cargo is also down and indeed the W/B CLX772 has been lost on the Monday night. There also seems to be no urgency to chase other types of traffic - ferry flights etc.

Now spotters on here will try and say how busy the place is with C-17`s etc, but these are few and far between. The majority of days the ramps are empty.
Handling are very poor and I've no doubt this is why a lot of traffic is leaving for other airports.

Something is seriously wrong, new management seem to be worse than the last Infratil team, with the main gripe being that the current management are surrounding themselves with people who are ex-colleagues, and have very little knowledge of how things work.

I`m sorry, but the airport I have supported and loved all my life is on it`s knees, and barring a miracle is finished.

Just wondered if BTB would care to give us an update on the BFS v PIK military traffic since his last post? Seeing as BFS are "on a whole new level". Be good to see what PIK has to aspire to.

[Refuellerman]

Just wondered if BTB would care to give us an update on the BFS v PIK military traffic since his last post? Seeing as BFS are "on a whole new level". Be good to see what PIK has to aspire to.
Before we start conversations, might i remind you and everyone that belfast is not irish, there are plenty of atlases and maps out there if people want to look and see! As for global trek at bfs, 4 maybe 5 hercs a week sometimes 6 or more at once!🖒

[PIK3141]

BTB probably wouldn't care to recognise the score, if keeping score, for the past week, is PIK about 20, BFS about 2.

[Skipness One Echo]

What's the difference in profit and loss between PIK and BFS since we're keeping score?
2016 passenger volumes :
PIK 600K
BFS 4.3M‪

The number of weekly C130s is perhaps not the smartest KPI.....

[LFT]

Best maybe you changed your handle S1E, you are in the running for the most anti PIK person on PPRuNe, without a doubt, I reckon you are pretty out of touch as to why PIK is still in existence.

[Skipness One Echo]

Enlighten me why PIK still exists in terms of what cannot be done sensibly elsewhere without raiding the schools and NHS budget to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

Do we really need a seperate airport for Cargolux and Air France Cargo?

[Rob Royston]

Enlighten me why PIK still exists in terms of what cannot be done sensibly elsewhere without raiding the schools and NHS budget to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

Do we really need a seperate airport for Cargolux and Air France Cargo?

We shouldn't need a separate airport for heavy freighters, but it is a fact that the privatised city airports in Scotland cannot land these aircraft especially in the wet and are showing no sign of extending their runways. The owners of EDI are in fact going to build offices on the only runway that they could possibly extend without moving the railway.
They would probably also be unable to send a freighter direct to destinations like Los Angeles from Scotland.

Exports that are trucked to England get claimed as UK exports and the resultant figures are used in political propaganda against the Scottish people.

I'm sure that MOL is smart enough to use this situation to his advantage.

[Groundloop]

might i remind you and everyone that belfast is not irish, there are plenty of atlases and maps out there if people want to look and see!

Well, I have just looked at one and Belfast appears to me to be in Northern IRELAND!!! If you are saying Belfast is not "irish" then, by the same token, Prestwick is not "scottish".:ugh:

[A320.b744]

Well, I have just looked at one and Belfast appears to me to be in Northern IRELAND!!! If you are saying Belfast is not "irish" then, by the same token, Prestwick is not "scottish".:ugh:

Trust me buddy, this is not an argument you want to get involved in. Just because Belfast is in NI doesn't mean it's Irish, it's Northern Irish. There's a difference, and quite a crucial one at that. :ugh:

But back to airport talk. Honestly I think that Prestwick should be closed and redeveloped. Ryanair are on their way out of PIK anyway and will most likely move all services to GLA in the near future.

[billyg]

We shouldn't need a separate airport for heavy freighters, but it is a fact that the privatised city airports in Scotland cannot land these aircraft especially in the wet and are showing no sign of extending their runways.

Wishful thinking on your part. With the forthcoming expansion of GLA towards the river there will be new maintenance and cargo space created. GLA representatives have already been talking to Cargolux earlier this year with a view to moving their services once the work is complete in 2019 !

[Rob Royston]

GLA representatives have already been talking to Cargolux earlier this year with a view to moving their services once the work is complete in 2019 !

That's interesting. From what I can see GLA offers 7000ft landing distance coming in over the motorway, measured from the aiming point to the runway end, and only 6500ft from the Clydebank end. That's well below the Boeing figures for a fully laden 747-8F.
Prestwick has 8300ft on runway 30 and 7500ft on runway 12, which is itself a bit tight in some conditions.

[willy wombat]

Landing distance is measured from the threshold not the aiming point and assumes aircraft crosses the threshold at 50 feet

[NorthSouth]

Landing Distances Available from the AIP:

Glasgow 05: 2661m
Glasgow 23: 2356m

Prestwick 12: 2743m
Prestwick 30: 2986m

[TRN1K]

Wishful thinking on your part. With the forthcoming expansion of GLA towards the river there will be new maintenance and cargo space created. GLA representatives have already been talking to Cargolux earlier this year with a view to moving their services once the work is complete in 2019 !



What a load of nonsense!

[PIK3141]

On prevailing Westerlies PIK therefore as 630 metres more LDA. Says all that needs to be said.

[Rob Royston]

Landing distance is measured from the threshold not the aiming point and assumes aircraft crosses the threshold at 50 feet

Thanks for the correction. I was not sure where it was measured from so I noted what I was using.

That leaves GLA 23, which has a displaced threshold, with about 7,500ft. The Boeing tables for landing a fully laden 747 8F in wet conditions require from 8000ft to 8800ft depending on flap setting and how much fuel is left.

Edinburgh has displaced thresholds at both ends so the landing distance is 7500ft from both directions.

[NorthSouth]

Rob Royston:
You're not reading the posts. See the official LDA figures at post #2581 above. GLA 23 is 2356m (7730ft). GLA 05 is 2661m (8731ft).
EDI LDAs are 2344m (7691ft) and 2347m (7701ft)

Quoting particular figures for an aircraft's landing performance is fraught with difficulty. The figures will also alter significantly depending on wind, air pressure and temperature.

[Rob Royston]

North South, I am merely questioning why an air freight company would be interested in moving to an airport where they could only expect to land on a typical wet Scottish day, on the predominantly downwind runway. This was posted on the previous page.

[CabinCrewe]

I would be interested to know how many cargo services to and from PIK are at maximum TOW or landing weight and whether that is even relevant. Aren't most services "relatively" short hops across the Atlantic with nowhere near maximum fuel capacity/weight.

[willy wombat]

This is a strange discussion. Freight doesn't tend to be too fussy about where it flies from or to. These 747 services could as easily transfer to, for example, Manchester.

[Rob Royston]

Aren't most services "relatively" short hops across the Atlantic with nowhere near maximum fuel capacity/weight.

Well, Los Angeles is a little over the max range for a full payload, but Houston and Seattle could work with the full load. The Boeing chart calls for an LDA of 8000ft, in wet conditions, for the Max Zero Fuel Weight, so any fuel weight being carried would add to that distance.

I cannot understand why Cargolux would be in discussions with GLA when their landing runway length into the prevailing wind will lead to further load shedding.

[WHBM]

I would be interested to know how many cargo services to and from PIK are at maximum TOW or landing weight and whether that is even relevant. Aren't most services "relatively" short hops across the Atlantic with nowhere near maximum fuel capacity/weight.
Cargo flights are different to passenger, and even short hops may have the aircraft at MTOW, or maximum that can be achieved for the characteristics of the airports etc. Fuel load will be less, but the weight is taken up by additional cargo load.

Passenger flights fill up when the seats are all taken. If you have 300 seats, that's it. Cargo however can be as much as you can get in up to your MTOW. Much air cargo will "bulk out", that is you reach maximum weight before the volume is physically full. Only a few operations, with lightweight loads such as FedEx mail, etc, or fresh flowers, will "cube out", that is the cubic capacity is stuffed full before you reach MTOW. Getting the balance right is a key commercial aspect. One of the main reasons why FedEx and UPS got into commercial cargo, having started with mail items, was to get the optimum efficiency of the aircraft between weight and volume.

Commercial demand is different too. A shipper may not ask "Can you take 20 tons of fresh seafood", but the other way round "How many tons can you take".

[Navpi]

This is a strange discussion. Freight doesn't tend to be too fussy about where it flies from or to. These 747 services could as easily transfer to, for example, Manchester.

Manchester doesn't accept pure cargo due I presume slots.

[billyg]

What a load of nonsense!

:{:{:{

:D:D:D:D

:{:{:{

[willy wombat]

MAN was just an example - could have said EMA and they sure accept pure freighters

[canberra97]

Manchester doesn't accept pure cargo due I presume slots.

Is that really the case regarding MAN?

[Skipness One Echo]

It's due to the redevelopment work causing stands to be at a premium.

[smith]

If PIK can hold tight for say the next 10 or 15 years runway capacity at GLA and EDI will reach saturation and PIK will be the only available option in the central belt.

[Skipness One Echo]

On the main pier, there are/were two glass rooms on top of the structure. The one nearest the runway is now boarded up. What were they used for? Always wondered....

Also has the Polar B747 been scrapped yet?

[VickersVicount]

Same as the mini control tower on top of the middle of the central 'BA' (then domestic) pier at GLA

[Refuellerman]

Global trek are getting some serious us military atm in bfs, is it stuff that was to go to pik or snn?

[ScotsSLF]

Global trek are getting some serious us military atm in bfs, is it stuff that was to go to pik or snn?

PIK is also getting some serious US military stuff at the moment too. 9 C130s, 3 C17s and a C12 over the weekend

[TRN1K]

Global trek are getting some serious us military atm in bfs, is it stuff that was to go to pik or snn?



Mixture of both really.Navy stuff out of SNN and some PIK customers.


As the previous post sais PIK still getting good stuff, busy weekend for US MIL. 10 hercs 3 17's and a C12 in less than 2 days isn't bad going

[Refuellerman]

Not bad going at all, did the b52s transit through pik at any time do (u) know?

[TRN1K]

No. Only flypasts on occasion.

[billyg]

What a load of nonsense!

Glasgow Airport Investment Area - Renfrewshire Website (http://www.renfrewshire.gov.uk/gaia)

Cargolux , and who else ?

[maxred]

investment in infrastructure will help to make Renfrewshire a more attractive, vibrant and sustainable place to live and work by better connecting communities and


Mmmmmm...I lived in Renfrew all my life. Anything to turn it into a more attractive, vibrant, and sustainable place to live, would be to move it to the Mediterranean.

How in Gods name is the M8, already totally choked at the bridge, going to cope with additional traffic :rolleyes:

Tend to agree on the total nonsense. Cargolux will stay at PIK I reckon

[Rob Royston]

Tend to agree on the total nonsense. Cargolux will stay at PIK I reckon

Unless GLA was able to extend their runway towards the motorway to give a sufficient landing distance for the freighters? I'm not sure if this could give them extra take off length though? I'm pretty sure that Cargolux sometimes fail to get the best use out of the aircraft even at Prestwick with its extra length.

[TRN1K]

I'm pretty sure that Cargolux sometimes fail to get the best use out of the aircraft even at Prestwick with its extra length.

How so?

What difference would it make switching it to GLA? an extra 30 minutes in a truck down to Prestwick doesn't make much of a difference.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why would Cargolux move? Freight doesn't care where it lands? And it is true that the shorter runway at Glasgow is sub optimal for a freighter at a heavy landing weight. I can see Ryanair making the move up the road but I don't see why Cargolux would willingly move?

[billyg]

PIKs on it's knees , as we all know , if the SG pull the plug it'll be curtains. If PIK were to go it would mean EMA for the likes of Cargolux , so maybe by talking to Glasgow and seeing what's on offer from them , they're just checking their future options !

[Rob Royston]

I'm looking at the 2012 chart for the 747-8F which is quoting about 10,100ft for an MTOW (448 tonnes) take off. Flying to Los Angeles some weight will likely have to be shed for extra fuel and this will be made worse by Prestwick being a little shorter than the required runway length. It maybe that their engines have been up-rated since 2012, someone might know.

That is why I am saying that GLA will need runway work before it can match Prestwick as a heavy freight base.

[Skipness One Echo]

Isn't all of PIK's scheduled heavy freight now only going as far as LUX or CDG? Hence stopping distance is more of the issue than departure?

[GASA]

Does the cargo make a lot of money? Would it be worth GLA building an extension just for some cargo flights? Extending a runway is very expensive and with engines getting better all the time a longer runway will become less useful than it used to be, or is it all about trying to kill of Prestwick as a competitor?

[Rob Royston]

Isn't all of PIK's scheduled heavy freight now only going as far as LUX or CDG?

Not according to this, unless it has been changed,

All airlines flying from Prestwick, Glasgow to Los Angeles. (http://info.flightmapper.net/route/YY_PIK_LAX)

All airlines flying from Prestwick, Glasgow to Seattle-Tacoma. (http://info.flightmapper.net/route/YY_PIK_SEA)

[CabinCrewe]

With a major motorway at one end and an ancient burial ground and silt land at the other, theres a reason the runway has never been extended... let alone height obstacles and high millions required.

[willy wombat]

It is a long time since I've been there but isn't there a 1000ft hard overrun area at the Western end of the runway which could be changed to runway. This would increase the TORA ON 25 but not the TODA, and would increase both on 05. Also landing run available would increase. However, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that this will happen.

[PIK3141]

Is this a Prestwick thread or a Glasgow thread ? Seems now driven by some silly load of nonsense about Cargolux.

[VickersVicount]

.... what else can you post for us then if theres more to PIK

[maxred]

Is this a Prestwick thread or a Glasgow thread ? Seems now driven by some silly load of nonsense about Cargolux.

Fair point, however if Cargolux were to move house, there would not be a Prestwick thread, coz it would not exist:uhoh:

It would move to the Aviation History and Nostalgia section....

[Corrosion]

Also has the Polar B747 been scrapped yet?

Almost. Still here, but rest in pieces now.

[Rob Royston]

It is a long time since I've been there but isn't there a 1000ft hard overrun area at the Western end of the runway which could be changed to runway. This would increase the TORA ON 25 but not the TODA, and would increase both on 05. Also landing run available would increase. However, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that this will happen.
The hard area is 500ft, looking at Google Earth. It could probably be extended to 1000ft if the will was there. Might help with their 380 hopes as well.

[ScotsSLF]

Major flurry of FR training activity over the last two days with a 737 and 738 circuit bashing together for long periods. Is this FR trying to train new pilots quickly to try and fill the gaps?

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Just because they are doing circuits doesn't mean they will be signed off tomorrow. Shortage is with Captains, not cadets

[TRN1K]

The hard area is 500ft, looking at Google Earth. It could probably be extended to 1000ft if the will was there. Might help with their 380 hopes as well.



I think they will have more to do than just extend the runway 1000ft or so for the A380. Runway and taxiway width/clearances for a start...

[ATNotts]

Major flurry of FR training activity over the last two days with a 737 and 738 circuit bashing together for long periods. Is this FR trying to train new pilots quickly to try and fill the gaps?

At EMA FR appears to have upped the tempo of training, most days the 73G EI-SEV is in the circuit, but mainly during "office hours". This last week I have seen it going up, and in the circuit well into the evening.

[DC-10-COL]

Wishful thinking on your part. With the forthcoming expansion of GLA towards the river there will be new maintenance and cargo space created. GLA representatives have already been talking to Cargolux earlier this year with a view to moving their services once the work is complete in 2019 !

And I can ASSURE you, Cargolux ARE NOT Moving!

(Bracing for the onslaught 🙄)

[billyg]

With the increased losses at PIK , which can't be allowed to go on much longer , then Cargolux might not have any say in whether they're moving or not. :-)

[TRN1K]

Maybe they wont, but you can be sure they will choose EMA or STN over GLA!

[inOban]

There's surely no reason why they couldn't shut down commercial passenger ops, while keeping the airport open for freight/GA/training etc.

[GrahamK]

Given that the 747-8 is presently banned from using GLA, you are probably correct. I suppose they could use the 747-400 through GLA though.

[Callum Paterson]

You seem more upset at the prospect of GLA gaining Cargolox than you do at the prospect of PIK losing Cargolox.

Fan boy logic right there!

[TRN1K]

Excellent input.:D

[Skipness One Echo]

Is main deck cargo loading something GLA wants? Without getting in the middle (again) of ye olde local airporte argument, is there an appetite for 747F operations at Glasgow? Assuming they could unload a B744F on the west apron remotes, the cargo area is on the other side of the airport with limited warehouse facilities. In all honesty, EMA or consolidating at STN would make more sense for CLX. Freight doesn't care which airport it uses but GLA has never done this and has a different focus.

[willy wombat]

I can't get excited about this discussion but, out of interest, why is the 747-8 "banned" at GLA?

[GrahamK]

Apologies, perhaps banned is the wrong terminology. Not cleared/not approved to use GLA. I assume length or the wingspan is the reason.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/misc/Current-List-of-Approved-7478-Airports.pdf

[southside bobby]

There was much detailed looking at STN`s taxiways & parking stands (concrete infilling) in preparation for the B748F with GTI/BAWC..STN was ready thus before LHR because of the parking requirements.
The a/c is Category 10.

[jensdad]

Interesting document GrahamK. Off-topic, but it's a bit bizarre that Damascus are allowed to handle the B748 but the legal disclaimer on the right hand side says that we aren't allowed to tell them!

[TRN1K]

There was much detailed looking at STN`s taxiways & parking stands (concrete infilling) in preparation for the B748F with GTI/BAWC..STN was ready thus before LHR because of the parking requirements.
The a/c is Category 10.

Similar work was done at PIK in preparation for CLX operations. She's a big beast!

[southside bobby]

Yes she is...some observers believe it a standard B747 with a few enhancements...
Actually it is a Category above the B744 at Category 10 the same as the A380...

[billyg]

Ron Smith leaving his post as CEO by the end of this month ? That was short lived !
Trouble at mill ?

[Callum Paterson]

Put the greatest business minds in the world in the top seat and even they won't turn a profit from passenger ops at this airport.

[Rob Royston]

From Googling, all I can find is that he wanted a flight to Heathrow. It's flying to Heathrow that has left Scotland with restricted routes to the World.

[Skipness One Echo]

That’s a fundamentally wrong view. “It’s flying to Dubai that has restricted Scotland’s direct flights to Australia” or “Doha” and “Bangkok” for Qatar or “Abu Dhabi” and “Vietnam” for the unmentionable one.

Heathrow flights are a shadow of what they once were at GLA. Was 14 daily 757s with BA and 8 daily 737s with British Midland back in 1990. (I am old now!) Nowadays it’s lucky if it’s 8 per day on BA.

PIK’s niche was short haul sun routes and Ryanair city routes in compliment. Was the only model that ever worked but Ryanair moved the city network focus to EDI and then went onto the sun routes to the detriment of the others.

[Rob Royston]

How can you say that it's a fundamentally wrong view when your own figures show that the Heathrow market from Glasgow has diminished by 65-70% based on flight numbers.
Glasgow moved their airport from Renfrew to Abbottsinch and built the M8 across the runway end. Edinburgh did the same with their new runway. Their focus was never trans-continental.

The reason why the Middle East airlines are in the driving seat can be clearly understood by going to the Airbus sites for the A350 or A380. These aircraft, and their Boeing equivalents, can fly directly from that region to any airport in the World with range to spare.

Scotland's duplicated/triplicated Central Belt airports, developed as London feeders, are not serving the massive numbers of Scots that work and do business in those remote places that working people need to get to. Often the only flights will be from one of the large European hubs that are poorly served from GLA / EDI. Overnight stays on the continent become the accepted practise, eating into leave time.

The Central Scottish airports that were once Heathrow focussed are now focussed on holiday flights and inward tourists, making working travellers walk endless miles through their shopping malls.

Scotland needs a central airport at Airth that would make GLasgow, Edinburgh, Prestwick and Dundee totally unnecessary. A terminus railway and bus station on the airport would make it easily accessible to all. It would be a real transport hub with flights to all the World's crossovers.

[Callum Paterson]

Scotland would absolutely be better off with one major airports serving the country. Such an airport would attract many airlines and routes which are not currently available from any Scottish airport.

However, it'll never happen. Instead the SNP will continue to throw money at Prestwick. But hey, at least all our road signs will be in gelic.

[Skipness One Echo]

Often the only flights will be from one of the large European hubs that are poorly served from GLA / EDI.
OK some good points there, you're point is clearer to me now, apologies if I misread your meaning.
I don't disagree that localism has hurt the Scottish economy in those areas. Given both GLA and EDI have terminals that have perhaps 20 years of useful life, I wonder if it's time to think big again? Two runway Central Belt airport plugged into rail network with a critical mass to keep the legacy European connections and make year round long haul easier to manage? Alas with GLA/EDI in private hands, couldn't happen nowadays.

For sure the demographics of travellers have changed, a lot less % suited and booted.

btw Is any new airline joining FR at PIK next year? How many based aircraft are we expecting?

[amcreadie]

Calum Paterson, your hatred for Prestwick Airport and the SNP are blatantly obvious. Please keep your political opinions to yourself. This is a forum about airlines and airports, not politics!

[Callum Paterson]

Excuse me, self appointed moderator.

I have no "hatred" for PIK. Only a fan boy could get so emotional over an airport.

However, as a reluctant shareholder and part owner of PIK, I'll comment on my forced investment how I see fit. Thank you very much.

[PIK3141]

You are also a reluctant shareholder and part owner of Edinburgh trams, the new Forth road bridge, the revamped M8, the dualing of the A9, HIAL airports, McBrayne ferries and umpteen more. Do you whine about those ?

[Callum Paterson]

Not to point out the bleeding obvious, but this is a thread about Prestwick Airport. Not any of the aforementioned. Just an FYI. ;)

[GLAEDI]

Some people would like to bring Scotland back to the days there wasn’t a motorway between Glasgow & Edinburgh, no M74 extn, no Queensferry crossing and no investment in CalMac. Plus tolls on Skye, Erskine & Forth Bridges. Labour & Tory’s didn’t invest in any infrastructure in Scotland. I do think the investment in PIK is wrongly placed in that it’s supporting passengers but the Scottish Government should have invested in PIK for cargo. Looking to get major players ie Fedex & DHL out of Glasgow and Edinburgh freeing up apron space for passenger flights. I know that Ayrshire pax would have a 35 min drive to Glasgow Airport.

[PIK3141]

And would not it be wonderful if this thread stuck to Prestwick Airport not mush about a central Scotland airport or Cargolux at GLA

[Callum Paterson]

Strange comment coming from a poster who in their last post wanted to discuss Edinburgh trams, the new Forth road bridge, the revamped M8, the dualing of the A9, HIAL airports and McBrayne ferries.

Anyway, back to discussing one of the biggest financial black holes in the United Kingdom. When will the doors be closed for good? The Scottish government have overseen two management teams at this airport and neither have done anything but squander public funds.

[GLAEDI]

PIK is an airport that Scotland needs, in the same way as EMA. If there’s to be an aerospace industry in Scotland it has to be based where it is at PIK. GLA & EDI runways are for Joe Public and we want as many pax as possible flying to as many destinations airlines want to fly from them. PIK is fantastic opportunity for other aviation cargo, GE engines, Spirit, FR maintaince and BAe. With the right investment FR and others would use PIK for training and maintenance if the money went on projects like that. A quiet airport with a forgiving runway to test the .... out of pilots & planes. Plus opportunities in other aspects like a aircraft graveyard. The only problem is the loss of Pax.

[Callum Paterson]

Agreed. Only once the doors are closed on the dated passenger terminal will PIK be within a chance of being turned into a sustainable business.

[Skipness One Echo]

Looking to get major players ie Fedex & DHL out of Glasgow and Edinburgh freeing up apron space for passenger flights. I know that Ayrshire pax would have a 35 min drive to Glasgow Airport.
The thing is, FedEx walked away from PIK. They had a daily DC10 then MD11 service which they decided was better served via an....ATR42 out of GLA or an MD11 out of STN. Go figure. But FedEx is parcels focused whereas CLX is more mainstream air cargo. It was the same with Panalpina, now at Stansted.
You are also a reluctant shareholder and part owner of Edinburgh trams, the new Forth road bridge, the revamped M8, the dualing of the A9, HIAL airports, McBrayne ferries and umpteen more. Do you whine about those ?
Where it's an obscene waste of public money in terms of shocking planning and incontinent overspending, YES. So from that list, trams certainly and the Scottish Parliament fiasco too, a building recently suggested to be end of life by 2060!
With PIK, not one realistic business plan to cut costs and turn a profit has been seen, because that would involve closing the terminal so the headline politics would be "airport closed by SNP".

Aon phàrtaidh, aon dùthaich, aon stiùiriche.
Bidh sinn an-asgaidh le 93 :)

The decision to force out the successful FBOs must now seem like short term foolishness!

[Callum Paterson]

Interesting new and enhanced venture between Emirates and Cargolux. Perhaps Cargolux will begin code sharing with EK from GLA.

Take cover;)

[TRN1K]

What a childish statement. You clearly have absolutely no understanding about the difference between a dedicated freighter operation and belly hold cargo

[Heathrow Harry]

as an occasional drop-in I'm astounded by the depth of feeling

reminds me of Jorge luiz Borges's observation on the Falklands War

"Two bald men fighting over a comb"

[Heathrow Harry]

On the other hand not QUITE so demented as Manston or Teeside.......................

[SWBKCB]

or even Teesside :eek:

[Porrohman]

Scotland needs a central airport at Airth that would make GLasgow, Edinburgh, Prestwick and Dundee totally unnecessary. A terminus railway and bus station on the airport would make it easily accessible to all. It would be a real transport hub with flights to all the World's crossovers.

Several studies into this idea have been carried out over the years. As far as I know, this is the most recent one;

Central Scotland Airport Study (http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/mainbg/Files/csa%20study.pdf)

[The Hypnoboon]

While doing some research for a course I'm creating, I came across this: Aviation ? ORBITAL ACCESS (http://www.orbital-access.com/aviation/#About)
It seems that Orbital Access are looking to set up an airline as well, canvassing for usage on some routes.

[Skipness One Echo]

That’s a student website project not an airline sadly.

[tartan 201]

I hope the student gets a high mark for the project then, since he or she has gone to some length to substantiate the project by a) registering a company (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC512473) and b) getting the FT to write about it (https://www.ft.com/content/a9d0600a-2dfa-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a.

[Skipness One Echo]

No serious business sets up a website and has a business model asking where you want to fly to. If you have to ask, you’re not serious. Please grasp at this straw.

[CabinCrewe]

This is not a 'student project'.

[southside bobby]

Whilst not a 'student project' it certainly is a 'pipe dream' but perhaps local posters will feel a need to defend it.

[southside bobby]

The Scotsman reporting a potential buyer for PIK has been identified & negotiations could start in weeks....

[CabinCrewe]

... Barrat Homes?

[BehindBlueEyes]

The new kid on the block | HeraldScotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12695642.The_new_kid_on_the_block/)

Then things started going awry:

Airport bid partner in debt case | HeraldScotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12548679.Airport_bid_partner_in_debt_case/)

But there was then a money making opportunity:

Flights to QUADRUPLE as airfield owner slams council for 'ten years of stonewalling' on homes plans | Salisbury Journal (http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15072724.Flights_to_QUADRUPLE_as_airfield_owner_slams_counci l_for__ten_years_of_stonewalling__on_homes_plans/)

Anyone know anything about Canadian Matthew Chance Hudson? Years ago he was known as the ‘angel’ who saved Prestwick airport although he doesn’t seem to like anyone asking him questions ‘off plan’ and, according to the article from Herald Scotland, is happy to call in lawyers if anything is published without his veto. His fingerprints are all over Old Sarum Airfield too.

Worth reading the comments at the end of the Salisbury Journal article too; clearly shows very strong public opinion.

[mwm991]

Have Corfu and Reus disappeared for next summer?

Ibiza also looks like it has scaled back from 4 to 2 weekly.

[Plane.Silly]

I believe IBZ was already 2 per week, (Wed/Sun), with extra Mon/Fri flying for the school holidays only

[rob39]

BinAir metro's doing regular hops to and from MST

[CabinCrewe]

Looks like PIK losses narrowing as a result of an increase in military and refuelling. Sounds like thats the (only) direction they should pursue. Still huge government medalling and no word on any potential buyer.
Wonder what the story will be this time next year....

[Bearpit]

Progress maybe, but £8.6m loss on £13.6m revenue certainly indicates us tax payers will continue to foot the bill for PIK for years to come.p

[PIK3141]

So the Herald newspaper says £4m loss so why do you write £8.6 ? Fits your agenda does it ?

[VickersVicount]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/prestwick-airport-plots-turnaround-as-losses-pile-up-w85hrhqzcPre tax loss of 8.6M is suiting noones agenda....

[southside bobby]

Further £6.5m "loan" already lined up for 2018/9.

[sinbad73]

:rolleyes: Is this why our income tax is being increased?

[Plane.Silly]

Avoiding the obvious political answers of protecting jobs... why is PIK still going without attracting any other airlines to work with them? Surely in a slot-constrained world, there should be plenty of options for new entrants to work with and fit into their schedules.

There must be a point when even the government says 'Enough is Enough'

[Skipness One Echo]

I wonder if as a condition of any sale, a private buyer may insist the Scottish Gov takes the passenger terminal on and closes it allowing the viable non Ryanair operation to right size and continue? Without that liability I can see a sale and a future, taking on the grand old lady from 1964, I just see a crying need for even more Capex!
I mean BA do most of their short haul hangared maintenance in Sofia so Ryanair have it easier popping over from DUB or GLA. Cargo goes forward without the costs of the passenger operation.

[Plane.Silly]

Looks like PIK losses narrowing as a result of an increase in military and refuelling. Sounds like thats the (only) direction they should pursue.

I've always wondered why not turn PIK into a large maintenance facility. I would imagine there is a lot of free time on it's runway/facilities, and that with Brexit on the cards, it would make sense to have some large-scale maintenance on this side of the channel.

Extreme case would be to rip up 03/21, and add a long line of hangars alongside it, leaving the taxiway to transport to 12/30. Just my own crazy idea, but long term a potential option (maybe not as extreme, but you get the jist)

[Skipness One Echo]

The airfield used to close for days in winter to all but the heaviest traffic when they closed it last time. The winter gales in the prevailing wind blow across the main runway.

[LFT]

Did you know 747's and An124's have used the 'short?'

[Skipness One Echo]

I mean in the days of transatlantic flying. No westbound heavy going transatlantic can get off the short IIRC. Northwest once got a 747 off 21 but they only went as far as SNN back then. You would not want to land a heavy 747 on 21 as it would end up in the retail park!
So Cargolux could do PIK-LUX but likely not land from the US in the first place due landing distance available, not to mention no ILS.
Does PIK still have SRA?

[CharlieJuliet]

Yes SRAs shown in AIP

[LFT]

You would not want to land a heavy 747 on 21 as it would end up in the retail park!



No you wouldn't, no they wouldn't, and no it wouldn't (it's 1/2 a mile from the paved surface up a slight incline through waterlogged fields).

[Rob Royston]

If there is one thing we do well in Scotland, it is making runways boxed in. I think we do it on purpose.
I don't know if the ground at the retail park would have been suitable for an extension or not but the Red Line I have drawn here is over 10000ft, so there's hope for old Prestwick yet. I just don't think we will ever take a flight to Aussie.

[Skipness One Echo]

That’s quite seriously uphill going north east sadly.

[james170969]

Didn't Qantas do a one off flight from Prestwick to Australia via Singapore about 20 years ago?

[Skipness One Echo]

Went via LHR back in 1994. Was the usual LHR daystopper.

[james170969]

Thanks. Can you remember why it came to Prestwick?

[Rob Royston]

That’s quite seriously uphill going north east sadly.

The tragedy is that if they had not parked that big shop dead in line with the runway you could have had 10,000ft to the existing threshold. Like I said they wanted to destroy the airport so that they could sell it all off.
I'm not sure if the roadway existed or if that was part of the shops deal? That's how they normally get them built nowadays.

Even picking up the pieces, you could have run out strips from both existing thresholds that would land a B 748-F from either direction.
Taking off to the SW you could have 11,800ft to play with. To the NE, like you say, things are a bit constrained, whether they would ever take off that way in any case.

Despite those who do all in their power to destroy it, as an airport Prestwick has everything EDI and GLA needs but cannot have. Once the future is settled, I'm sure it will find new uses.

[Callum Paterson]

PIK has everything GLA and EDI need? I think you'll find it's the other way around. And that thing is passengers.

[Skipness One Echo]

Thanks. Can you remember why it came to Prestwick?
Sadly no, it was sold from the PIK end, not sure what the reason was. Sat all day in bay 3. There were posters advertising the one off nature around the area. Anyone recall the reason?

03/21 was built in the 1950s and is actually into wind! There would have been a reason why 13/31 remained the main, this predates the whole GLA vs. PIK thing as GLA was at Renfrew and Abbotsinch was still RNAS Sanderling. Anyone know why 03/21 wasn’t built out for the B707s?

It’s nailing down “new uses” that make money which is really tricky.

[ScotsSLF]

Re the Qantas 747. This was a publicity stunt in the early days of Mathew Hudson amd Hugh Lang to put the newly rejuvenated PIK back on the map as regards PAX flights The earlier stunt of potentially taking live cattle flights didnt quite hit the mark!

[LFT]

03/21 was built in the 1950s and is actually into wind!





No it's not :rolleyes: If the wind doesn't favour 30 it's favouring what was 08/26, primarily 26, unfortunately the 06 threshold has the Chevron Hangar on it and at the 26 end the Coastguard 'H', In terms of use in my experience the Runway used most is 30, followed by 12, then 21, and rarely 03. Please stop making things up :ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

Sorry but unless the met has changed massively in recent years, the main runway sufferered from major crosswinds, closing the airfield in winter in the years 03/21 was closed. The clue is that GLA was built as 24/06, EDI 25/07 and PIK 31/13. Runway in use doesn’t tell you prevailing wind, I am not making things up, been around long enough to have some context. 26/08 was closer to prevailing wind true and was the ideal, but 03/21 is still way closer then 31/13 is.
Remember the same thing happened at EDI, main was 31/13 and so many flights were diverted in winter until 25/07 was built in 1977 (ish).

And yes I know it’s 30/12, 23/05 and 24/06 now but you get the idea!
Is the Prestwick micro-climate so different that the wind swings through 80 degrees in 20 miles? Can we agree that at PIK, 21/03 is WAY closer to the prevailing wind than the main?

Also, how many cargo flights are lost in winter going direct LUX or CDG because PIK is out of crosswind limits? Used to frustarate FedEx and Atlas Air no end, part of the reason Panalpina moved to STN.

[VickersVicount]

you guys need to get out more. Its Christmas...

[Rob Royston]

Skipness

You are correct here, especially the last bit. The damage to Prestwick was caused by the owners seeing aviation, as so many still do with blinkers to everything else, as bucket and spade flights and using their airport as a feeder to the London, and now the European, Hubs.
Nobody with any future vision at Prestwick would have allowed the building of the shops in the centre of the runway line. To them 03/21 was sufficient to deal with any gale force cross winds and it probably was for what they saw as their mission.
Today, aircraft have changed dramatically with massive ranges and load/cargo/fuel capacities. Most companies look for long gentle take off runs to get these loads into the air without going to maximum thrusts on their engines. An extended 03/21 would give Prestwick this desirable capability, they could always move the shops if they had to.

Getting back to the prevailing winds there is some information and a compass rose on this Met Office site that shows that the cross runway was pretty much spot-on. The wind information is down at the bottom of the page. There is a compass rose for Tiree as well that you have to avoid.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/regional-climates/ws

[Plane.Silly]

Least PIK is still useful as a diversion destination

US Air Force plane lands at Prestwick Airport after emergency - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-42494895)

[The Hypnoboon]

Having been home for Christmas and passing by the airport quite a few times, I've noticed a fair amount of activity at the old Currie European warehouse. The "to let" signs are down as well.

Has a new tennant been found for it?

[01475]

My back home for Christmas thoughts were that I was shocked at how little industry and commerce is left in Ayrshire. Everything that used to be a factory is either derelict or a shop!

Perhaps the way the Scottish Parliament could support PIK would be by encouraging some industry that might give it a reason to exist?

[CabinCrewe]

.... dont you think theyve tried that?

[Callum Paterson]

This is the Scottish government we're talking about, so no they probably haven't.

[01475]

Well they may have tried, but if so it was in a way that left no traces of itself.

[LFT]

This is the Scottish government we're talking about, so no they probably haven't.

Don't worry EDI and Edinburgh are booming.

[Porrohman]

This is the Scottish government we're talking about, so no they probably haven't.

Most of the powers that might be used to encourage manufacturing industry and other businesses are reserved to Westminster.

[INKJET]

It should have been shut decades ago along with Durham TV just wasting good money after bad IMHO

[ScotsSLF]

Good to see PIK providing safe haven for a good number of diversions in December from GLA, EDI and BHD as well as Mildenhall. Now let’s just see what this apparent imminent sale is all about.

[PIK3141]

There is no imminent sale.

[VickersVicount]

Have we been misled?
Depends on your definition of imminent

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/prestwick-airport-set-to-be-sold-four-years-after-1-rescue-1-4611194

[Porrohman]

Misled by who? The article was written following a tip off to the Scotsman by an un-named "aviation source" (plane-spotter, tug driver, pilot, pavement engineer or someone with real knowledge?) who said that "something" ( a vague term) "is expected to start within weeks" but did not indicate when a conclusion would be reached.

Newspaper articles are often attributed to un-named "sources" which often prove to be nothing more than wild guesses by people with no real knowledge.

The statement from the Scottish Government spokesman makes it clear that there is no timescale and the nature of discussions includes third party investment or sale.

Unattributed speculation of the type published in this article is not helpful and could even undermine sensitive, confidential, commercial discussions.

[tartan 201]

I wonder if a possible sale was item 7 on the agenda of the 1st November board meeting: http://www.glasgowprestwick.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/OpsCo-Board-Minutes-1-November-2017.pdf

[tartan 201]

Having been home for Christmas and passing by the airport quite a few times, I've noticed a fair amount of activity at the old Currie European warehouse. The "to let" signs are down as well.

Has a new tennant been found for it?

It's showing as 'under offer' on their website: Warehouse space - Glasgow Prestwick International Airport Glasgow Prestwick International Airport (http://www.glasgowprestwick.com/business/commercial-and-property/warehouse-space/)

[DC-10-COL]

Guess all the outsiders on here won’t know - for!

[Skipness One Echo]

As a former resident, I can attest to this. "It's a local airport for local people, we'll have no trouble here...."

What would any private buyer have to do at PIK to make money that the last two owners failed to do?

[canberra97]

Excellent reference to 'The League of Gentlemen' Skip

[Rob Royston]

Can we agree that at PIK, 21/03 is WAY closer to the prevailing wind than the main?

Also, how many cargo flights are lost in winter going direct LUX or CDG because PIK is out of crosswind limits? Used to frustarate FedEx and Atlas Air no end, part of the reason Panalpina moved to STN.
Interesting development tomorrow. The Seattle flight is due in late afternoon, the wind wiĺl be very strong with gales later in the evening, all at 90 degrees off the main runway.
Would they have been able to use 21 if it had been extended to provide a suitable landing distance instead of building shops?

[NorthSouth]

Hmmm, money now in the shape of land sold for shops, versus occasional money in the future from cargo flights being able to land rather than divert. Given the airport's current financial position I suspect I know how that would be answered.
In any case was there ever a proposal to extend 03/21?

[Rob Royston]

I think it's about twenty years since the shops were allowed to be built on the runway line. I'm not sure who owned the land at the time, but the airport owners, if they had any vision to the future should have blocked the plans. There were plenty of other sites for shops.
Prestwick might well have been a thriving cargo hub, or more, today if it had not been sold to people with no interest, or investment planning, for developing it's potential. That's been the story of Britain for almost half a century.
Let's hope that the current owners have some plans.

[Skipness One Echo]

The BAA sold 03/21 off to allow Freeport Scotland to be built. It was fenced off and derelict in the late 80s. It was only the need for the BAe Flying College to fly in horrendous winter crosswinds that brought back the northern third into use. It was only under PIK Ltd that it was brought back into full use. So for short term gain the airport had long term pain to get back to what they had. Nothing changes.

[mwm991]

Some cuts at PIK too. Including a daily flight to BCN. Gran Canaria also goes. Theres been some minor cuts this summer as well.

A further nail in the coffin for me.

[sinbad73]

Yet FR's media release indicate that MLA ccontinues from PIK:

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-announces-11-new-w18-routes-from-edinburgh/

– Edinburgh: 45 routes including London Stansted & 11 new routes to Berlin, Derry, Gothenburg, Hamburg, Lisbon, Memmingen, Stockholm Skavsta, Riga, Seville, Sofia, & Tallinn

– Glasgow Prestwick: 8 routes to Alicante, Faro, Fuerteventura, Lanzarote, Malaga, Malta, Rzeszow & Tenerife South

– Glasgow International – 3 routes to Dublin (3 times daily), Krakow (2 wkly) & Wroclaw (2 wkly)

[mwm991]

Misread, apologies!

[mwm991]

Alicante 3x weekly,
Faro 1x weekly
Fuertevetura 1x weekly
Lanzarote 2x weekly
Malaga 2x weekly
Malta 1x weekly
Rzeszow 2x weekly
Tenerife South 4x weekly

16 weekly fights for Winter '18/19. (Correct me if wrong)

[The Hypnoboon]

The Times has reported that there has been over 20 approaches to the Scottish Government about investment or purchase of PIK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/critics-ask-ministers-to-come-clean-after-22-prestwick-airport-offers-mfkw2fxm2


22 approaches either means that the interested parties could not make a case for operating PIK after looking at the books or the SG did not think the approaches were viable. They do not state what or who the approaches were made by though.

However it does show that there may be businesses out there that want to have a go at operating Prestwick.

Also, on an unrelated note, there's been a Qatar 747 sitting on the tarmac for a few days now, anyone got any ideas what it's in for?

[LFT]

Also, on an unrelated note, there's been a Qatar 747 sitting on the tarmac for a few days now, anyone got any ideas what it's in for?


Huntin' shootin' fishin' apparently.

[The Hypnoboon]

Huntin' shootin' fishin' apparently.

How the other half live...:eek:

[scr1]

Qatar also have 2 A320s parked at INV for the same reason they arrived on the 8th

[CabinCrewe]

Rural Affairs committee looking into future of PIK
Suggestion that pax ops might ultimately be dropped
Interesting giving comments about FR only offering pax ops due to leased maintenance facilities.
https://twitter.com/sp_reccttee/status/1009362188811857920?s=21

[asdf1234]

It's a poorly kept secret that Prestwick loses money on the FR contract. A brave owner would oust FR immediately and then attract a mix of short-haul, holiday sun and a long haul to North America. Whilst FR are there none of the above will happen.

[SWBKCB]

Interesting giving comments about FR only offering pax ops due to leased maintenance facilities.

Has this been confirmed, or is it just rumoured?

A brave owner would oust FR immediately and then attract a mix of short-haul, holiday sun and a long haul to North America.

That would be "brave" - who do you have in mind? I don't remember there being a queue at the door...Twitter

[mwm991]

I just listened to the committee.

They said they have spoken to 23 airlines. Closest they have got is with a Cypriot operator but an "operational issue" with pilots put paid to it.

Met with upto 17 cargo operators.

Feel they could sustain a London service. At a recent summit they were told by Flybe and Easyjet that they would consider a PIK-LHR route if the third runway came to fruition. However they also realise that they service would need to be more than 1x daily to be attractive to business. Number of flights from Glasgow and Edinburgh works against them.

They feel a lot of smaller aspects of the business are doing well like fuelling, maintenance, rent occupancy.

They got grilled about how much the passenger ops service is costing them. Asked why it has taken them 5 years to realise that passenger ops at the airport has been losing money, which they conceded. However they said the are carrying out a review to understand truly what makes money and what doesn't at the airport. They blamed managerial changes for the length of time being so long. Admitted they are up against it with other airports which are better located. Stated that at the end of the next review they may make a recommendation to cease passenger ops if it saves the business.

Stated they have virtually no inbound traffic and are reliant on sun, sea and sand outbound.

Asked if and when the taxpayer would get their money back and they couldn't answer. They did make a lot of argument about the value of the 800 acres of land of the airport. One of the panel mentioned that Nicola Sturgeon had told them at the time that of purchase by the SG that they would not loan more to airport than the value of the land. When told by one of the panel that they didn't think they could pay the tax payer back but if they could what year would the tax payer see their money back, Ian Forgie the Finance Director couldn't answer this.

Annual loans are pretty much spent on maintaing the infrastructure of the airport, i.e terminal, runway etc.

Also told that they have now went in a different direction from their original five year plan in 2014. A panel member said they found that confusing and that the airport is playing a dangerous game by relying on FR as their lone operator when they are notorious for ditching airports on a whim.

They did say that passenger numbers and cargo were marginally increasing. Although with no service increases coming and minor reductions from their only operator, concern exists.

Said that most parties who want to invest in or buy the airport want to basically bulldoze the place and build houses and they will only sell to parties which have the same vision of the board. They are not actively looking to sell the airport but if the right bid comes along they will talk.

Asked about how long SG would keep funding a loss making entity. No one really knew.

Lots of chit chat about the Heathrow Hub and the Spaceport but nothing really concrete. Just talks and meetings are ongoing. A lot of non-disclosure stuff.

A new commercial director coming in and they have recently hired a "cargo industry expert" who lives 10 minutes from the airport and is retired. His contacts have helped the airport.

Overall it felt very defeatist. They are relying on areas of the business which make minor profits to prop up the drain of the passenger operations.

[SWBKCB]

Also told that they have now went in a different direction from their original five year plan in 2014.

they will only sell to parties which have the same vision of the board

What could possibly go wrong?

[ScotsSLF]

Not very much new that isn't known already. The PAX operation is the main area holding back the company and they seem to be holding out for a London route to reappear but not via FR. They may wait a long time and who knows exactly what the Heathrow Hub initiative will look like. The FBO and military / tech / maintenance/ training side of things look sustainable and profitable with possibly the cargo side of the business and the property rentals so this should form the core of the business moving forward. Ditch the PAX and use the terminal for a new museum of aviation for Scotland alongside the Spaceport which I do believe will happen. This would generate more paying punters through the terminal doors than there are PAX at present. If PAX are warranted ( and profitable) in the future then a small functional terminal could easily be built to accommodate the needs of the present 700k+ PAX. However with GLA under increasing pressure from EDI then expect more pressure on PIK's present services

[nighthawk117]

I just listened to the committee.

... snipped
.

Thanks for the summary... very informative, if not slightly troubling!



A brave owner would oust FR immediately and then attract a mix of short-haul, holiday sun and a long haul to North America. Whilst FR are there none of the above will happen.

You make it sound so simple! I think you are massively overestimating the impact of Ryanair! How exactly are Ryanair putting off an airline starting service to North America? And just who would want to run a flight to North America from PIK, when Glasgow is just up the road? I'm surprised PIK hasn't been able to attract a few chart flights to the sun - Ryanair does well on those kind of flights from PIK.

I still believe there could be a market for passenger flights from PIK. Ryanair are managing to fill their sun flights, showing people are prepared to travel to PIK if the price is right. With Ryanair now cutting capacity out of GLA, we might see additional flights added from PIK in future. Given the right incentives, additional airlines could be attracted too - Wizzair did well enough for a few years, it would be interesting to see how the move to GLA has impacted their profits.

Closing the terminal and abandoning passenger flights is a big step, and something that is difficult to come back from. If they can grow passenger numbers, they will eventually turn a profit. With air travel continuing to grow, and GLA/EDI approaching capacity, PIK may still be in a position to attract some of the overspill.

[Rob Royston]

The newspaper reports on this committee are very sketchy. I have not seen the yearly turnover figures anywhere, just that the owners (us) have loaned £40m over 6 years and that losses are at £24m over 4 years. Does that mean that it loses £6m a year which the loan is covering for now? Have any loan repayments been made? Many on the committee are politically motivated which does not help.
If it is the case that the passenger side is where the losses are, should these 700,000 passengers not be paying an extra £8.50 in landing and take off fees. Did the committee ask how much Ryanair paid at Prestwick compared to what they pay at other UK airports?

[NorthSouth]

a new museum of aviation for ScotlandWhat, on a Scottish taxpayer-owned and funded airport, competing against Scotland's existing state-owned aviation museum at East Fortune? Can't see that going down well.
I've always thought there must be mileage in trying to get a commercial training school back at PIK.

[mwm991]

The management felt that they have one of the best offerings open to any operator due to the price and availability of slots at the airport compared to competitors. They are entirely open and flexible. Ryanair being there or not they don't feel affects potential airlines.

Also said that just under 1/3 of passengers at the airport are rail users.

[mwm991]

The newspaper reports on this committee are very sketchy. I have not seen the yearly turnover figures anywhere, just that the owners (us) have loaned £40m over 6 years and that losses are at £24m over 4 years. Does that mean that it loses £6m a year which the loan is covering for now? Have any loan repayments been made? Many on the committee are politically motivated which does not help.
If it is the case that the passenger side is where the losses are, should these 700,000 passengers not be paying an extra £8.50 in landing and take off fees. Did the committee ask how much Ryanair paid at Prestwick compared to what they pay at other UK airports?
There was very little discussion specifically about Ryanair and their use of the airport.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I'm surprised PIK hasn't been able to attract a few chart flights to the sun - Ryanair does well on those kind of flights from PIK.

They did reasonably well with a host of charter flights to the sun when FR's main Scottish focus was at PIK and inbound city routes were their core focus. When the charter carriers like Futura went bust, and at the same time Ryanair moved all city routes out to EDI for better inbound traction, this left only outbound sun routes from PIK, and so that niche for charters was lost as FR then dominated that same space, one they had avoided at first.
If they can grow passenger numbers, they will eventually turn a profit. With air travel continuing to grow, and GLA/EDI approaching capacity, PIK may still be in a position to attract some of the overspill.
It is entirely possible to lose money with loads more passengers, this is partly why Infratil sold out, they scaled up their costs faster than their revenues should have allowed.
They are entirely open and flexible. Ryanair being there or not they don't feel affects potential airlines.
If a new customer started flights on PIK-sun, there is a high probability FR would compete to maintain market share, otherwise they risk losing the very competitive pricing PIK have to offer their only passenger operator. It's a tough call, and I have said this before, but closing the 1964 terminal and concentrating on what PIK do well at as a niche operator may well work IMHO. Trying to offer a full passenger service from that cost base is crippling. What turned PIK around in 1994 was Matthew Hudson making some hard and painful decisions which led to some medium term success in the market as it was then. No politician sees any success in doing the same as they will own the pain with none of the gain. There's a lot of good stuff there, it just needs a break from the fantasy business model that continues to show heavy losses. But it's not my job on the line so that's just keyboard-warrior-ing on my part to some extent

[nighthawk117]

I'd love to know ho much it costs to run the current terminal. I wonder if they are better off demolishing it and building a smaller, more efficient terminal alongside it? It might be a big hit initially, but possibly worth it in the long run?

[sellbydate]

There was very little discussion specifically about Ryanair and their use of the airport.

Ryanair don't pay airports like Manston! It doesn't work like that!

[Rob Royston]

There was very little discussion specifically about Ryanair and their use of the airport.
The committee were more interested in getting mud to stick to the SG than in identifying the real loss making problem (to the airport) of Ryanair's operation, and then getting the airport management to explain what they are discussing with Ryanair about closing the cash gap.

[CabinCrewe]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brits-take-one-step-closer-12918088
Werent PIK putting all their hopes on this ?
Mmm.

[Callum Paterson]

Prestwick is an answer to a serious housing shortage.

[inOban]

First time I've ever heard that location suggested. It was always PIK or campbeltown. Lovely part of the world, no infrastructure, peat bog, sure it's not April 1st?

[Rob Royston]

Prestwick is an answer to a serious housing shortage.
Going by the figures recently provided, It costs everyone in Scotland about thirty bob a year each to keep this massive national asset open. It would be most irresponsible to pull the plug.

[Rob Royston]

First time I've ever heard that location suggested. It was always PIK or campbeltown. Lovely part of the world, no infrastructure, peat bog, sure it's not April 1st?
That's what I thought as well but it seems that it was mentioned previously in relation to the rocket launched sattelite side of things. The space tourist side, if ever developed, is more likely to be from an existing airport.
A rocket was launched in Oct 2015 from the Hebrides Range that would be similar to what would be used at Sutherland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35482244

[Callum Paterson]

Going by the figures recently provided, It costs everyone in Scotland about thirty bob a year each to keep this massive national asset open. It would be most irresponsible to pull the plug.

You mean it costs everyone in Scotland £30 a year to subsidis Ryanair flights to the Costas.

If Ryanair were bringing in thousands of tourists to Scotland from the likes of Brussels, Frankfurt, Oslo, Stockholm, Madrid and so on then I could see the benifit. But they aren't.

Prestwick is nothing more than the cheapskate gateway to the Costas for Scottish people to go and fry themselves on a beach for two weeks. Why should the tax payer subsidise that?!

[Rob Royston]

You mean it costs everyone in Scotland £30 a year to subsidis Ryanair flights to the Costas.

If Ryanair were bringing in thousands of tourists to Scotland from the likes of Brussels, Frankfurt, Oslo, Stockholm, Madrid and so on then I could see the benifit. But they aren't.

Prestwick is nothing more than the cheapskate gateway to the Costas for Scottish people to go and fry themselves on a beach for two weeks. Why should the tax payer subsidise that?!
Can you explain where it costs each Scot £30 per year?
How Ryanair run their business is up to them. From the figures provided it seems that they should be paying over £8 per passenger extra to what they currently pay for going through the airport. It may be that the airport management consider their use of the airport facilities for maintenance etc and the jobs provided at the terminal as too much to lose. I don't agree with them on that but I don't have all the facts available to me.
Keeping the national assett operational is the priority until an alternative is in place.

[sdh2903]

What's the point in having a "national asset" that only succeeds in throwing money down the pan.

The only reason FR stay is due to the maintenance facility. Oh and guess who paid for most of that......

[Rob Royston]

What's the point in having a "national asset" that only succeeds in throwing money down the pan.

The only reason FR stay is due to the maintenance facility. Oh and guess who paid for most of that......
Money is not getting thrown down the pan. The losses are with the passenger side and as FR are the sole operator then the airport needs to charge them more or shut down the passenger facility with the obvious job losses and the possible loss of the FR maintenance operation. For a government that has pledged £2 Bn to Calmac over 8 years, it's a drop in the bucket.

[mwm991]

The one asset they have, the runway, they can't afford to operate without tax payer subsidy.

The profit making side of Prestwick is nothing more than a small time property business.

[01475]

For a government that has pledged £2 Bn to Calmac over 8 years, it's a drop in the bucket.

I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make. Are you aware that Calmac provide essential lifeline services to otherwise inaccessible remote areas?

[sdh2903]

I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make. Are you aware that Calmac provide essential lifeline services to otherwise inaccessible remote areas?

And not forgetting that calmac carries nearly 10x the pax of pik. Not only vital services for residents but also tourists who actually bring money in to the country, also benefiting people all over Scotland not just a pocket of people in Ayrshire. If pik was run as a proper business it would have been put out of its misery long ago.

Sadly it's a vanity project now. The Snp will never back down and admit they were wrong.

[Rob Royston]

The one asset they have, the runway, they can't afford to operate without tax payer subsidy.

The profit making side of Prestwick is nothing more than a small time property business.
According to the reports of the committee on 20th June (above), It's the passenger side that's being subsidised.

[Rob Royston]

I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make. Are you aware that Calmac provide essential lifeline services to otherwise inaccessible remote areas?
I'm aware that maybe 5% of the subsidies Calmac receives could be classed as being used for essential lifeline services but that is not a discussion for this forum.

[Callum Paterson]

Well you did make the comparison...

[Rob Royston]

Well you did make the comparison...
About the subsidies, yes, but I did not mention that money-spinner, lifeline services.

[nighthawk117]

Prestwick losses in 2017-2017 period were £7.8m, so it's costing each person in Scotland £1.47

With 678,000 passengers using the airport during that period, you'd need to charge an extra £11.50 per passenger to cover the shortfall. Revenue per passenger is currently £5.49, which appears to be extremely low, however we know how Ryanair hate to pay their way, so increasing this may be tough.

[nighthawk117]

That's what I thought as well but it seems that it was mentioned previously in relation to the rocket launched sattelite side of things. The space tourist side, if ever developed, is more likely to be from an existing airport.
A rocket was launched in Oct 2015 from the Hebrides Range that would be similar to what would be used at Sutherland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35482244

Yesterdays announcement is in addition to previous schemes. It was decided a while ago to abandon the idea of nominating a single site for horizontal space launch facilities, but instead let a number of places compete on a commercial basis for the work. This new announcement is for a vertical launch facility, which was never previously discussed.

The actual press release mentions the following:


- Lockheed Martin to establish vertical launch operations in Sutherland, Scotland and develop innovative technologies in Reading, Berkshire with support from two UK Space Agency grants totalling £23.5 million

- A further £5.5 million will go to British company Orbex to build an innovative new rocket for launch from Sutherland, as part of Government’s modern Industrial Strategy

- This builds on awards of £2.5m to Highlands and Islands Enterprise to develop a vertical launch spaceport in Sutherland and a £2m development fund for horizontal spaceports such as those planned in Cornwall, Glasgow Prestwick and Snowdonia

- Government support for launch is the first step towards a potential Space Sector Deal and the development of a national space programme

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/lockheed-martin-and-orbex-to-launch-uk-into-new-space-age


So we may well still see something happening at PIK.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

1) Get in a new airline in and get more passengers with a view to moving into profitability
2) Close passenger terminal and downsize to attempt to become profitable on the remainder of the business
3) Launch rockets into space and make money doing so on a consistent basis from the middle of the Scottish TMA

The fact that one of those is even on the table shows how crazy things now are.

[SWBKCB]

3) Launch rockets into space and make money doing so on a consistent basis from the middle of the Scottish TMA

It isn't - what is is launching rockets from some sort of airborne platform which would take off from PIK. Not saying that isn't barmy, but it's not the same thing. About as plausible as option 1, though.

[mwm991]

Apparently Newquay is the front runner for the first horizontal launches. Signed a commercial agreement with Virgin Orbit.

[The Hypnoboon]

The fact is Prestwick has been looking at horizontal launch space flight, there would be no rockets blasting off from the airfield and interrupting the air traffic.
Launch vehicles would take off (like a plane), fly (like a plane) to the launch area and release the craft which would then boost into orbit while the mothership returns to earth (like a plane). This would have minimum effect on air traffic as the launches of the space cargo would take place away from air traffic corridors. Admittedly this is still some way away from being commercially operative, but Virgin Galactic are making strides towards it happening along.

[RND20]

What could they do to convince ryanair to open more routes? The likes of Dublin and Shannon used to be popular when they operated. BFS would do well too. Such a shame seeing a good facility going to waste

[Callum Paterson]

1) Get in a new airline in and get more passengers with a view to moving into profitability
2) Close passenger terminal and downsize to attempt to become profitable on the remainder of the business
3) Launch rockets into space and make money doing so on a consistent basis from the middle of the Scottish TMA

The fact that one of those is even on the table shows how crazy things now are.

Indeed. Suggestion 1 truly is crazy. Of all the airlines on the planet only one is slightly interested and that's because they can pay well below the growing rate.

[ScotsSLF]

https://www.spiritaero.com/media-highlights/press-releases-and-statements/release/137002/

[TRN1K]

Indeed. Suggestion 1 truly is crazy. Of all the airlines on the planet only one is slightly interested and that's because they can pay well below the growing rate.

That is complete nonsense. If that was the case then why did they switch and expand from Glasgow?

[willy wombat]

Not nonsense. Why are they now (largely) leaving Glasgow?

[nivsy]

Not nonsense. Why are they now (largely) leaving Glasgow?
From what I understand, the departure from GLA is driven by politics and not pax loads.

[willy wombat]

Do tell more. It's difficult to believe that FR decisions are driven by anything other than money.

[CabinCrewe]

Local forum hearsay, nothing more.
This decision will have been multifactorial and to suit noone else but Ryanair.
As we know loads and subsequent yields mean nothing.
I would be very surprised however if its easier to fill a 738 with decent fares from PIK than it is from GLA.

[mwm991]

Not sure how concrete it is, but Ryanair's booking engine has been loaded up for S19, it looks like.

Bydogoszcz looks to be added at 2x weekly. Rzeszow 2x weekly and Fuerteventura and Malta x1 weekly are missing this year, so far at least. Barcelona and Gran Canaria return for the summer at 6x weekly (BCN) and 2x weekly (LPA) after receiving winter cuts this year.

[GLAEDI]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/transport/ryanair-to-reverse-glasgow-route-cuts-1-4802066/amp

in the small print, cuts at PIK

[mwm991]

I think any cuts that take place will mainly be whats in the booking engine just now. Bydogoszcz effectively replaces Rzeszow, Malta and Fuerteventura go and Alicante and Barcelona lose a daily flight.

[Rob Royston]

I see Spicejet 737 800 Max aircraft are using Prestwick as a refuelling point on their delivery flights. Yesterday's was 8hrs 41mins from Seattle, 1hr stop and 8hrs 31mins to Delhi. I imagine they would need extra tanks fitted for these flights.

[CabinCrewe]

Depending on winds, Im not sure they need extra tanks on an empty new 737Max. Thats a whole engineering and cost issue...

[DaveReidUK]

I see Spicejet 737 800 Max aircraft are using Prestwick as a refuelling point on their delivery flights. Yesterday's was 8hrs 41mins from Seattle, 1hr stop and 8hrs 31mins to Delhi. I imagine they would need extra tanks fitted for these flights.

The cost, time and inconvenience of having to fit and remove a ferry tank would be far more than simply scheduling an additional stop if the range was insufficient.

[Rob Royston]

The cost, time and inconvenience of having to fit and remove a ferry tank would be far more than simply scheduling an additional stop if the range was insufficient.
I found a performance chart for the original 800 which would probably have done both legs with fuel only loaded (showing over 5000 nms range). I also may have read the great circle distances from a Kilometre web-site while half asleep.😊

[737aviator]

There's no need for extra fuel. Even the 800 can make it from Seattle to UK/Ireland non - stop so the Max can probably go an hour further if they wanted.

[CKT789]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46730491

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46730491

They now owe £38.4M to the Scottish Government, or more accurately, the taxpayer. Refuelling doing better but overall performance is weakening.

[mwm991]

Not sure how the botton line will get any better next year either more cuts to passenger ops and pay rises for staff.

[goldeneye]

Not sure how anyone can make Prestwick successful again. Maybe if the promises APD cuts happen they might attract more Ryanair sun routes but I don’t think there is any real term prospect of another passenger operator coming in.

[ScotsSLF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46730491

They now owe £38.4M to the Scottish Government, or more accurately, the taxpayer. Refuelling doing better but overall performance is weakening.

True the debt to the Scottish Governmemt has gone up although this is within a planned loan agreement and my reading of the financials is that overall performance has improved with increases in refuelling, aviation related activities (FBO?), cargo and even PAX up by 4% although I doubt if there’s any profit in the 700k pax from FR. so revenues up and expenditure down (relative to increased revenue). Overall for me heading in the right direction and with the investment put in by the Scottish Governmemt this should allow extra business to be built up. The click is still ticking though as they need to start eating in to the debt or the secondary runway will be sold off to service that debt. There’s enough solid and profitable aviation activity at PIK to maintain the airfield and the associated jobs although it remains to be seen whether PAX is sustainable

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

they need to start eating in to the debt or the secondary runway will be sold off to service that debt. There’s enough solid and profitable aviation activity at PIK to maintain the airfield and the associated jobs although it remains to be seen whether PAX is sustainable
Agree 100%, if and only if the Terminal and it's high costs are removed from the equation. Ryanair are bringing nothing profitable to the table? I think that's fair?
The second runway has already been sold once before, PIK had to spend a lot of money to bring it back because they realised it was pretty essential in the frequent winter days when having a main runway at right angles to the prevailing wind wasn't helping. If they keep the terminal and close 03/21, then you're in a viscious circle leading to higher losses as a business model depending on fuel stops, training and ad hoc traffic isn't supported by an airport with a serious crosswind issue.

[CabinCrewe]

Spaceport is gone... You'll hear no more about it with regards to PIK.

[The Hypnoboon]

The MOD site may well be sold off, there has been negotiations surrounding it. Reading the OPSCO minutes there does seem to be some things in the offing regarding the MOD site.
In one of the GPACC meetings it was stated that a Cyprus route was considered viable by another airline, best guess, Cobalt, but they've gone, along with discussions with an Eastern European airline who had concerns about competing with Ryanair.
It is difficult to see where an increase in passengers may come from to create a profitable passenger side of the business.

[mwm991]

Look at the PAX outlook for the year ahead. Their only daily route to BCN is gone completely during the winter and operating less than daily next summer. Gran Canaria was chopped for the winter. Malta and Fuerteventura are gone come the summer whilst they swapped the Polish routes from Rzeszow to Bydgoszcz so no actual gain. Alicante is operating at a reduced frequency as well.

Staff were recently granted a pay increase.

Thats going to put more pressure on other areas of the business in the next year.

[LFT]

Sell 03/21? Sell an asset, why? Some of the nonsense you read on here is pretty unbelievable, for one it isn't in the "local plan" and doubt it ever would be, SAC are probably one of the worst councils in Scotland but I believe they're not THAT stupid.

[airtrumpone]

To be fair Inkjet I was through there a couple of months back, yes it was dead but it was low season, there is a W H Smiths and even an Elvis bar and a prayer room, but that looked unused.

In the US we have loads of airports that nobody uses and having been based in France it’s much the same, nobody bats an eyelid, civic pride and all that I guess.

Its one one of the few places in Europe where you can circuit bash without upsetting the locals and the views are fantastic, food is rubbish even by US standards but apart from that it would be a shame to see it close.

[Rob Royston]

There’re not really political statements, the problem is that all major infrastructure projects are political one way or another.
The simple fact is that PIK would have gone by now had not the ( Scottish ) state stepped in.
Airports don’t work without passengers, this just looks like poring good money after bad, please tell me I’m wrong.
To paraphrase a famous son of Ayrshire, Bill Shankly, "Prestwick is not just a matter of profit and loss, it's far more important than that".
Airports can work without passengers, from what we hear it's the passenger side that is causing Prestwick's losses.
When an oil company has a crisis thousands of miles away and the heavyweight solution is in Aberdeen, you can either truck it down to an English airport or send it from the only Scottish airport that has the capability to handle it and a runway that will provide the range. If the crisis is in the North Sea and the equipment is in Houston it could be critical that a heavy freighter, or freighters, can be landed in Scotland. I've been on the receiving end of equipment lifts like this myself, so I know how important they are to the clients.
Seafood freight cargoes could form the backbone of a Scottish freight hub. I imagine the current Scottish Government have this in their vision.

[nighthawk117]

I reckon a PAX operation out of an adapted portion of the present terminal could be achieved with the creation of a Museum of Flight in and around the remainder of the terminal. This could provide an ongoing profitable sub-business provided investment could be secured to ensure a decent number of exhibits and decent marketing. Basically, a Museum and pax terminal in the one building and with a direct rail link to both


I'm not sure how much museums make - most of them seem to be charities, and rely on government grants and subsidies to function. You'd be lucky to break even - you certainly couldnt build a profitable business based on one


so please tell me who is paying for PIK to stay open? because I don’t see a business case, where are the private capital firms queuing up to bid, no sign of Canadian pension funds or French infrastructure investors, I haven’t being to PIK in a decade, can some one show me a picture of what’s in the terminal, are there Next shops, Victoria secrets, sunglasses house, Jamie’s Itialian, even a MacDonalds ?

Airports don’t work without passengers, this just looks like poring good money after bad, please tell me I’m wrong.


Airports can work without passengers - there are plenty of functional airports dotted around the UK that have no passenger service. Most are maintenance hubs. The problem with PIK is it has a high cost base that was built up when it had a reasonably successful passenger operation. These costs need to be slashed as much as possible now, which is no easy task.

You're right though, as a business PIK isnt terribly viable, and that's why there are no investment firms queieng up to buy the airport. However, PIK also has a significant impact on the local economy, and that is why the Scottish Government have stepped in to invest in the airport. Not only are there airport related jobs to think about, but also the aviation industry in the surrounding area. Can you still run an aviation centre of excellence in South Airshire, if there is no airport on the doorstep? The advantage the scottish government has is they can look at the bigger picture - is it worth taking a small loss on running the airport in order to keep the local economy ticking through other means?


Seafood freight cargoes could form the backbone of a Scottish freight hub. I imagine the current Scottish Government have this in their vision.

I think most of this is already well catered by scheduled flights. Between the various US and Middle East airlines, the market is pretty well covered here. Besides, you dont need 747s to move fish - you can easily accommodate any such flights through EDI/GLA/ABZ.

[Rob Royston]

-----------


I think most of this is already well catered by scheduled flights. Between the various US and Middle East airlines, the market is pretty well covered here. Besides, you dont need 747s to move fish - you can easily accommodate any such flights through EDI/GLA/ABZ.
Yes, that is so at the moment, but with Brexit looming and maybe Independence, the Scottish Government have to be prepared to cope with keeping what is a major export market functional.
This is how Norway see it,

https://www.aircargonews.net/news/airport/single-view/news/oslo-airports-fish-freight-volumes-are-flying.html

[EIFFS]

I have fond memories of my training in PIK with my signet call sign ( CP surname was Swan hence signet ) very little commercial traffic other than circuit training, but even back then the limitations for single engine training were obvious with water on one side and significant terrain to the other. It might have the lowest fog risk of any UK airport but the cloud base is often low and whilst this meant that the training was realistic you could see a 6 week course become a 10 week course.

I guess thats why the signet flights now operate out of southern spain where the biggest weather risk is sun stroke.

Scotland has devolved responsibilty for airports including APD and could abolish APD at PIK to increase passenger numbers, GLA/EDI might object but reducing APD might be a fairer way of supporting PIK than a subsidy paid for by all tax payers.

I guess Scottish independence is likely at some stage in the future and most people in England take the view that it’s a matter for the people of Scotland alone to decide.

Of course if the UK leaves without a deal and Scotland becomes an independent state and re joins Europe would there not need to be hard border between England and Scotland?

On the subject of higher income taxes rates in Scotland is this based on where you live or where you work?

[renfrew]

The SNP are a minority Government and can't abolish APD without support from the Greens which isn't forthcoming.The Tories and Labour simply oppose anything the SNP propose.
With the closure of Kinloss and Leuchars it surely is important to retain the Prestwick runway.

[SWBKCB]

Scotland has devolved responsibilty for airports including APD and could abolish APD at PIK to increase passenger numbers, GLA/EDI might object but reducing APD might be a fairer way of supporting PIK than a subsidy paid for by all tax payers.

I'd like to see the legal advice on reducing APD at just one airport (which happened to be owned by the same body setting the tax level...). Don't follow the fairness point - isn't the general tax payer picking up the bill either way?

[EIFFS]

I'd like to see the legal advice on reducing APD at just one airport (which happened to be owned by the same body setting the tax level...). Don't follow the fairness point - isn't the general tax payer picking up the bill either way?

Argubaly yes but only if passengers travel from the airport whereas at the minute they pay whether passengers travel or not, travelling passengers generate other income through shops and car parks.

with regards treating EDI/GLA differently aren’t they doing that by subsidising PIK to stay open when commercially not viable?

If in the very very unlikely event that EDI & GLA we’re closed at short notice how many diverts could PIK handle, I suspect many would divert to NCL or MAN ahead of PIK.

[NorthSouth]

With the closure of Kinloss and Leuchars it surely is important to retain the Prestwick runway.Neither Kinloss nor Leuchars are closed. The Kinloss runway is maintained in fully operational configuration as a diversion airfield for Lossiemouth, and is used daily by Moray Flying Club. Leuchars remains fully operational, mainly as a diversion airfield for Lossiemouth, but also with daily ops by the UAS and for exercises. In any case, even if they were closed, what would Prestwick offer that isn't available elsewhere?

[nighthawk117]

with regards treating EDI/GLA differently aren’t they doing that by subsidising PIK to stay open when commercially not viable?

Technically it's not a subsidy, but a loan, or at least thats what the government will tell you - EDI/GLA may argue otherwise.

Allowing lower APD rates from PIK than from GLA/EDI would be a subsidy, and would probably be deemed illegal state aid pretty quickly.

[Breathe]

Technically it's not a subsidy, but a loan, or at least thats what the government will tell you - EDI/GLA may argue otherwise.

Allowing lower APD rates from PIK than from GLA/EDI would be a subsidy, and would probably be deemed illegal state aid pretty quickly.

Without wanting to go too of topic, how come INV manages to get around the rule for being exempt from APD like airports in Northern Ireland?

[Breathe]

From what I've read, it looks as though the airport could function reasonably well as a small cargo airport along with all the attached aviation businesses around it.

Perhaps it could operate as a passenger airport with a much smaller terminal (or just operate with less staff?).

Of course, I have no details of the day to day running of the airport, so I could have written a load of balderdash. :)

[ScotsSLF]

Breathe - what you’ve said is pretty spot on in my opinion

[Plane.Silly]

Totally agree with you here chaps, While the passenger side may never truly take off (pun intended), there is definitely the case for other activities, especially Maintenance. There's already a sizeable chunk of Aircraft Maintenance Hangers there, if they could aquire a bt more of the land either by Monkton or eitherside of 03/21, you could have a whole line of hangers parallel to the runway, with the 2 perpendicular runways, it provides the perfect test bed after C/D checks.

Just my 2 pennies....

[nighthawk117]

Without wanting to go too of topic, how come INV manages to get around the rule for being exempt from APD like airports in Northern Ireland?
I'm not 100% sure, and its an interesting question.

You cant pick and choose airports, but you can give exceptions based on geographic area - e.g Northern Ireland and Highlands & Islands in the case of Inverness. I guess you could try and add an exception for "Ayrshire", but that may be pushing it a little, and I'm sure GLA would be very quick to challenge the legality of it if you did.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

if they could aquire a bt more of the land either by Monkton or eitherside of 03/21, you could have a whole line of hangers parallel to the runway, with the 2 perpendicular runways, it provides the perfect test bed after C/D checks.
Apron A and B would be an ideal maintenance area if the old terminal was demolished, no need to buy more land.
If IAG ever decide to consolidate more in house maintenance, they should be in there with an offer like a shot. It's not as if they can build more at LHR and PIK is close to both DUB and LHR/LGW. "Why send your A380s to Manila for heavy checks via Clark (or even LGW!) for the one hour per week when you can land them when you can use either of our runways 24/7 with a strong BA and EI service at GLA to transport staff back?" THAT's the sort of subasidy the Scottish Government should be thinking about, a BAMC of the North.

[Mister Geezer]

I think any MRO provider will be hesitant in spending a large sum of money on a brand new facility to be located at an airport, which is heavily dependant on state funding to keep it operating and especially when it's a shadow of what it was just a few years ago.

Not only that but it's becoming harder for MRO facilities in Europe to compete with facilities like LH Technik in the Philipines, that can offer first world services with the huge benefit of cost efficiencies of it being in the developing world.

[TRN1K]

Neither Kinloss nor Leuchars are closed. The Kinloss runway is maintained in fully operational configuration as a diversion airfield for Lossiemouth, and is used daily by Moray Flying Club. Leuchars remains fully operational, mainly as a diversion airfield for Lossiemouth, but also with daily ops by the UAS and for exercises. In any case, even if they were closed, what would Prestwick offer that isn't available elsewhere?

Acres of parking space, logistics, specialist cargo handling, hazardous cargo handling, 24/7 ops, no noise restrictions....just a few to mention.

North of RAF Leeming it is the next best thing available to the military with only one fully operational base in Scotland (RAF Lossiemouth). Not just to the MOD, but the other international forces that use it.