BAA Pay to Fly

[pfvspnf]

Is Baltic Aviation Academy offering pay to fly after the type rating is finished?

If so with who?

They claim to be a professional organisation, how in their right minds can they tell pilots to pay for employment.

[Shutdownatpl]

Yes they do, mainly with Small Planet Airlines! Also with Pegasus in turkey, and several asian airlines in Vietnam, Cambodia etc...

Thats really bad what they do!

Stay away from them!

[pfvspnf]

Thank you !

I will never pay nobody , only here to expose airlines that do this

[Officer Kite]

rubbish upon rubbish lol

There is currently no paytofly with baa and small planet, pegasus hasn't happened for a while now ... i would be the last person to defend baa but at least be truthful and logical, cos in that case there is more than 1 flight school we can attack!

[Shutdownatpl]

I have recent email to prove about pegasus! also it run on their website in last 2-3 months, offering 100, 200, and 500 hour packages! please don't defend BAA, its 100% happening!

100hrs 27000 euro
200hrs 41000 euro thats with pegasus

70000 USD for 500hrs in Cambodia!

this info is been sent to me by BAA end of June!

[parkfell]

Do theses amounts include the type rating training?

[Officer Kite]

It wouldn't surprise me if not.

My point was and is not to defend BAA and as said i'd be the last one to do so, but they just recently opened a cadet programme via small planet that is not pay2fly, so i don't know where the second poster was going with that one. They have moved away from the pay2fly special organisation they were at one point, they have a few cadet programmes running now that are not pay2fly and in fact offer better value for money than some of the other ones popular on these forums.

Regarding the school and p2f it seems to not be shameful at all for them, their argument is where is the difference in paying ctc 130,000 to fly an a320 for wizz or easyjet to paying them 60,000 for their atpl and then 30,000 for "line training" ... in many cases their p2f ex graduates spent less than ctc graduates are spending today. I despise p2f and think it's the plague, but on paper it is true.

With regards pegasus, i specifically asked out of interest a few weeks ago and was told it wasn't on, i don't know more else.

[Shutdownatpl]

Do theses amounts include the type rating training?
no it doesn't! TR cost is on top of that!

[hitansh]

Is that only for US Nationals?

[pfvspnf]

Mmm parkfel are you interested in joining them ?

All the same airlines asking for people to pay them for employment , it is very very sad.

[parkfell]

This unacceptable style of gaining experience will only end when market forces plays it part, and the demand side of the equation dries up.

The employers will then have no option but to offer remuneration to newly qualified pilots requiring normal employment.

Nothing short of exploitation of desperate people trying to join the food chain.

[Basil Fawlty1]

Regarding the school and p2f it seems to not be shameful at all for them, their argument is where is the difference in paying ctc 130,000 to fly an a320 for wizz or easyjet to paying them 60,000 for their atpl and then 30,000 for "line training" ... in many cases their p2f ex graduates spent less than ctc graduates are spending today. I despise p2f and think it's the plague, but on paper it is true.



This is a very good point. I know the p2f argument has been done to death here and like everyone else I despise the system.

However, i struggle to see how people seem to think it's ok to pay certain schools 130k for a license whereas 60k + 30k for line training is somehow destroying the industry.

[pfvspnf]

Basil , you are a good example of why things are the way they are.

No it's not the same.

When you pay an employer to give you work this is unethical , immoral and some would argue barely legal. Flying around passengers in a commercial aircraft for which you have paid for the privilege to sit in that seat through a sketchy deal is beyond the scope of flying under supervision.

Moreover, ab initio training can be done at any flight school. If a cadet program or structured partnership with an airline is there from the beginning than so be it. The two are not equivalent.

Baa seems all about marketing an image when in turn they are just intersted in money coming in their way

[Officer Kite]

Aha yes ... because Oxford, CTC, FTE, Alpha, Gair, Egnatia, Atlantic ... everyother school on the planet exist because they love aviation so much and they just wanna teach people how to fly from the goodness of their own heart :ok:

You don't think easyJet, Ryanair or any other airlines are making a profit off the type rating costs? You don't think that those vastly inflated type rating costs do not cover the cost of line training for the student? No ... from the goodness of their hearts :ok:

I'll say it again, I would be last to defend BAA, but the logic here is stupid to be frank.

[Basil Fawlty1]

Yeah right because L3 are just in it for the love of aviation.

In my humble opinion it's neither ethical to p2f or to charge kids £130k for a job. Both exist in this industry unfortunately, thankfully though p2f seems to be on its way out. It remains to be seen whether or not the big schools get round to doing something about the ridiculous cost of their courses - I won't be holding my breath for this though.

[pfvspnf]

Niether should happen , I'm not defending them either. Each school is just as bad as the other , I'm sure there are plenty more organizations to expose that promote pay to play. If you know more please do share I'll keep it in mind when I interview candidates

[ZFT]

In your opinion, how much should they charge then?

[Shutdownatpl]

Flight Training will never be cheap and it never was, and most of us can live with that, but charging ver 100k for it, it just out this world. I wonder what is the profit margin for CTC/L3. For example bertolini air in poland will do full integrated course for around 45-50k euros. So its definitely some schools just over charge cause they can!

[hitansh]

Qatar and L3 are charging $155,000 beat that :rolleyes:

[Thegreenmachine]

Don't forget that the big schools in England have huge expenses on wages, rent, fuel, marketing etc. All schools do this obviously but anywhere in eastern Europe has a massive disparity in these and hence their price is considerably lower. In terms of % profit margin I don't suppose there is a great deal of difference between say, L3 and BAA.

[Officer Kite]

In terms of % profit margin I don't suppose there is a great deal of difference between say, L3 and BAA.

You were making good sense up until this ...

[Thegreenmachine]

Don't think for one second because you are paying less money that you are not being profited from just as much. It's a mute point really but I'm willing to bet L3/Cae actually make less per student than others in terms of gross margin. Their advantage comes with the quantity. They (Cae globally) can pump out upwards of 50+ cadets per month when times are good. A quick check on companies house will tell you CAE made £1mill operating loss 2015/2016! No doubt due to lack of students in 2014/5.

[Basil Fawlty1]

In your opinion, how much should they charge then?

Actually, my question should have been "what are they & their airline partners doing to make their courses more affordable/accessible?"

[Shutdownatpl]

Age you guys talking about BAA or aviation CV ?
Good question, BAA is part of same group as aviation CV, Avia Solutions Group. And no one bigger for p2f in Europe then aviation CV! They advertise at least several p2f offers at any given time!

Hence BAA is as bad as anyone!

[Nurse2Pilot]

I don't understand. Why are people blaming BAA? I thought P2F was about the "employee" paying the "employer" to work... what does the flight school have anything to do with it? It's like blaming your local university because Microsoft asked you to pay for your internship. Am I missing something here?

At the very least, BAA benefits from the type rating and other courses you'd need before you can P2F, but then again, nobody forced you to go and work for a P2F airline...

[Thegreenmachine]

Sorry but that's not correct at all.

BAA is the medium through which you get into a pay-to-fly. They see nothing wrong with it which is their prerogative but it's virtually indefensible imo.

The employer, in your analogy simply advertises through BAA to find the employee, who stumps up the cash for a job. These people deny potentially better candidates who don't see it necessary to pay 30-50-70k(???), a job.

[pfvspnf]

Yeah they are both to blame , just another grab for cash.

I take it that many of you are just starting out your careers , don't shoot yourselves in the foot. Take a stand against all kinds of pay to work and low paying conditions.

Quite sad to see EK and CX in shambles . Maybe I'm naive enough to think we can change it together

[Nurse2Pilot]

I see... So BAA is like the recruitment company? So the negativity is coming from "why did they agree to do this??"

But even so, why is the blame seemingly on BAA alone? Which company is advertising P2F through BAA right now? Which airlines have had P2F schemes?

[Officer Kite]

Thing is, it depends on how you dress it up.

Many 'honourable' western carriers have run programmes, and continue to do so, whereby the candidate is required to pay extortionate sums for their type rating.

That extortionate sum covers the type rating, all line training, as well as a small profit for the airline. But that's not pay2fly is it?

Interesting

[pfvspnf]

ABY does this , and yes it's pay to fly .

Wouldn't be suprised if BAA starts offering Pay to fly for command as well

[ZFT]

Actually, my question should have been "what are they & their airline partners doing to make their courses more affordable/accessible?"

That's ducking the question

[wassupman]

suppose buying 500hrs on a320 to start flying is considered unethical? What happens after that? Will one be able to secure a job having the mandatory 500 hours (which is for insurance purposes i hear) suffice?
the prospect of being nearly 40 after training not having much hope especially where the market is flooded with 20 somethings completed training with their parents help or taken massive loans without a hint of reality of repaying for their ab-initio?
the question remains, how one get the first job after training.
maybe there's a need for the employers to re-think their approach for considering their future pilot employees and not just concentrating on putting a 20 year old on a 40 year pathway plan where most likely a lot of them would leave to greater pastures. #wishful-thinking

[momo95]

It would seem there aren't that many willing to sign up to p2f schemes. Companies who historically always ran them in place of preselected non p2f cadets are now opening up cadet programmes because there aren't enough joining their p2f programmes post CPL/IR. Small planet and Avion Express though still have kept their p2f programmes for CPL/IR holders though for the few that are interested.