Avro Arrow test models found

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Evening All:

A test model has been located:ok:

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought' - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/avro-arrow-found-unveiling-1.4280537)

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought'
Search team showed results of underwater sonar search that began in July
By Alexandra Sienkiewicz, CBC News Posted: Sep 08, 2017 10:20 AM ET Last Updated: Sep 08, 2017 4:39 PM ET

Nearly 60 years after the Avro Arrow was scrapped amid controversy, members of the public got a first look at images of one of the test models recently found in the depths of Lake Ontario.
Members of the Raise the Arrow expedition unveiled still photographs and underwater video from a remote-operated vehicle on Friday morning in Toronto, confirming the discovery of the free-flight model.
In addition, the team announced what comes as a surprise to many Arrow enthusiasts — "there are more jets out there than originally thought," said John Burzynski, the expedition leader.

He called the finding a "discovery within a discovery" since "this was a secret program that no one knew was going on when it was going on, unfortunately a lot of the records are partial."
The additional models were described as very early iterations which were used as "test tracking vehicles." They may not have had all the characteristics of the Avro Arrow, as they were mainly used to test equipment, said Dr. Richard Mayne, a historian with the Royal Canadian Air Force. At this point, the team only knows that several were tested.

Due to poor weather conditions, the team has only had a "solid two weeks" of search since the expedition was announced in July, said David Shea, vice-president of engineering at Kraken Sonar, the Newfoundland and Labrador company aiding with the search.
That said, the lake bed — consisting largely of a rocky bottom — has helped in the search because "they didn't sink into the mud ... what fell in the lake basically sits on the bottom of the lake," said Burzynski.
Before the end of the season, the team plans to send divers into the lake to do a reconnaissance dive, said Scarlett Janusas, the expedition archeologist. The models were found between "30 metres and about 60 metres deep," added Burzynski.

"We've been given permission to remove some of the zebra mussels, so we may be able to find out exactly which model it is we're looking at," said Janusas.
She added the caveat was as the season progresses, conditions may get too rough to bring the model up to the surface.
"But when we are ready, we will be doing some excavation around the model," said Janusas. That procedure would involve digging around the Avro model, which is upside down, and building a cradle for it, to assure it won't break on ascent.

Popular jet scrapped in 1959
The Arrow, a sleek jet interceptor developed in Malton, Ont., in the 1950s, had the potential to propel Canada to the forefront in military aviation. The program was abruptly cancelled in 1959 by Prime Minister John Diefenbaker, resulting in 30,000 employees losing their jobs. As well, the planes were ordered to be destroyed.
It's believed that nine three-metre-long, or one-eighth scale, models of the Arrow fitted with sensors were strapped onto rockets, and fired over the lake from Point Petre, near Prince Edward County more than 200 kilometres from Toronto.

New search launched in July
In July, what's believed to be the biggest search of its kind for the models was launched — with the help of equipment that assisted the successful Franklin Expedition in 2016. The mission is a collaborative effort by several private companies in assistance with the Canadian Coast Guard and the Royal Canadian Military Institute.
Kraken Sonar Systems, which was awarded a $500,000 contract to aid with the search, including deploying its state-of-the-art ThunderFish underwater vehicle and AquaPix sonar system to capture high-quality images of the lake bed.

In July, the team announced the search grid would cover water ranging in depth from five metres closer to shore and 100 metres farther out in the lake. The mission was set to run the underwater sonar equipment for eight hours a day, after which the data was downloaded and analyzed by a team of scientists that also included archeologists.
Their original goal was to search an area about half the size of Vancouver, or 64 square kilometres.

A 1980 CBC report said that after the destruction of the existing Arrow planes — created based on the models now in Lake Ontario — pieces were sold to a Hamilton junk dealer, for 6.5 cents per pound. At 67,000 pounds, a scrapped Arrow would have cost $4,355.

[BluSdUp]

Ahh, The old Arrow.
A dark chapter in Canadian aviation history. The Yanks was terrified that Canada would sell this superior aircraft to NATO and other friendly nations.

AND Pentagons Wardesk, Canada (the second biggest after USSR) was afraid Canada would go to fare to the left. In which case an invasion was on the table, literary.
A superior Avro Arrow was ,,,,, Not allowed!
Can you imagine USA dictate this to France over a superior Mirage....?
Dont get me wrong, just trying to set things in perspective...!

It was such an absolute superior design it would have taken US well into the 80 to catch up.
Canada has so much to be proud of today and historically.
Go out and dig up that Arrow and show Your kids that Canada did!
Recommended reading: There never was an Arrow.

Keep us updated
Friendly Regards
Cpt B

[wondering]

Amazing aircraft. Indeed.

Wasn´t it basically down to finance? Just like the TSR2? Two superb aircraft which neither country could really afford in meaningful numbers on its own. What I never understand, why wasn´t there more cooperation between NATO partners in those days? Was the US aerospace industry so almighty?

[Old Nic]

Almighty?, financialy yes and everyone has a price.

[Zombywoof]

AND Pentagons Wardesk, Canada (the second biggest after USSR) was afraid Canada would go to fare to the left. In which case an invasion was on the table, literary.Some people around here could benefit from a literary invasion. :rolleyes:

[BluSdUp]

A bit to late to invade my vocabulary I am afraid.
Anyway, Pentagons Canadian Wardesk had the invasion plans for Canada ready the second You went communist.
What we did in Europe was one thing, but a communist Canada, never!

The Bomark was a joke and the Voodoo was not much better. But now Canada depended on US. Perfect. I forget were the DEW.line fits in to the picture at this point. But clearly US needed a loyal, dependent no-communist Canada. McCharty was dead but his spirit was not.

I claim the US was instrumental or catalytic to shutting down the Arrow.
Hard to prove.
But as more secret files are opened and researched done, we shall see!
I find it hard to grasp that a over-performing ,ready for production aircraft was cancelled and literally axed the next day.

The fact that a few months later, Canada and USA signed an agreement that Canada should never embark on big military project alone, is a hint.

How am I doing so fare Z?
Cheers

[Zombywoof]

I'm sure you have some interesting thoughts on the Kennedy assassination, the moon landing, and 9/11 as well.

[Mostly Harmless]

BluSdUp is actually correct, the US did have an entire war plan drawn up to invade Canada. The plans preceded the Arrow but they exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

Canada also had plans to repel that invasion and even invade the northern US as part of that defence. There's a lovely documentary about it on youtube... right here.

kS2AlIJ621c

It is also true that the Arrow program was shut down and destroyed under massive pressure from the US government and our spineless Prime Minister gave into that pressure... and we bought subsonic jets and Bomarc missiles from the US.

[BluSdUp]

Zomby
No!

Dude, chill.
You have nothing to contribute with .
Except spellcheck, eh. Eh!

[Zombywoof]

It is also true that the Arrow program was shut down and destroyed under massive pressure from the US government and our spineless Prime Minister gave into that pressure... and we bought subsonic jets and Bomarc missiles from the US.And it is also true that the threat shifted from bombers to ICBMs, thereby rendering manned interceptor aircraft useless. But we don't want to talk about that, do we?

[BluSdUp]

Ah, but we do.
We are talking about a historic and technical opportunity squandered away.
And by the way your last argument is false AND a direct quote of Your dear Diefenbaker.

Khrushchev also lied: We are churning out ICBM like hot dogs.

The ICBM was for full out Atomic war.
What the west desperately needed was a capable interceptor and with the new Canadian engines it would have been a Russkie Killer.
Costly yes , but the most expensive stuff was already payed : testing and tooling.

[Mostly Harmless]

The US was defending it's arms building and exporting business. The Arrow would have made Canada a major arms exporter as customers were lined up to buy the first fly-by-wire Mach 3+ interceptor. Even as the program was shut down, other countries were offering to buy the project and prototypes from us but we cut them into scrap and burned the designs. This stuff is pretty well known and extensively written about.

[Zombywoof]

This stuff is pretty well known and extensively written about.By fools such as yourself. The Arrow was built as a supersonic interceptor specifically designed to shoot down nuclear armed Soviet bombers.

Since there is zero possibility of a Soviet attack being conducted by bombers, then as now, the Arrow's mission ceased to exist, and it was pointless to continue further development. Period.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Evening Zombywof:

Based on your extensive analytical response why was the F-35 built any other fighter post Avro Arrow?
Remember the Arrow did have a very large weapons bay as well.

[Zombywoof]

why was the F-35 built any other fighter post Avro Arrow?Um, can you possibly rephrase that in English so it makes sense?

Edit: I'm going to assume you skipped an "or" there.

Now here's my question for you... why would Canada need the F-35, or for that matter any fighter in 2017? There's only one reason Canada has fighters at all: comittment to NATO. Fighters are completely useless for the defence of the Canadian homeland.

Now let's look again at the function of the Arrow. Shooting down Soviet bombers. It became clear back in the day that bombers were not going to be used in a nuclear world. Why would you spend millions of dollars and countless development hours on something that was already obsolete?

[Zombywoof]

Now consider this: my name's Dmitry, and I command a Russian submarine. I am currently cruising off the coast of Newfoundland. If I receive the order, I will press a button and within 20 minutes the following Canadian cities will cease to exist:

Toronto
Montreal
Vancouver
Winnipeg
Edmonton
Calgary

I would like to know how your Arrow will protect you from me.

[tasspook]

The Arrow was built as a supersonic interceptor specifically designed to shoot down nuclear armed Soviet bombers.

Er, seem to recall the F-4 Phantom was originally designed for the same purpose. So what's your point?

[BluSdUp]

If you are of the coast of Newfoundland in you missile boomer you have company.
I cant tell you what the standing orders was,but that would be treason.
One thing fore sure, you would never get in a position to fire anything.

Norway, SOSUS and NATO tracked every single missile sub that went west from Kola. I worked at NATO HQ at SACLANT REPEUR in mid 80 and know a thing or two about these matters. I trust that you brother Igor in the Pacific was tracked by the US NAVY and Canada any time he left shore.

Now, with regards to the potential for the Arrow , it was huge.
NATO used the F4 and F104 for ground attack and it ended in tears with the F104 due to the small wing and limited maneuverability at low level.

Looking at all the wars after 1959 that has used Fighter bombers and interceptors for all sorts of work they were not specifically designed for I am sure the Arrow would have been a success.
The Yanks new it and did not let it happen.
It is the most odd program cancellation in military history.

Oh and one thing Zomby, please do not call anyone a fool, OK!
Peace and love
Cpt B

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning BluSdUp:

Thank you for your post as it confirmed things that friends told me in a "limited" fashion when I worked with them from the Argus to the Aurora.

Last night I was trying to comment on posting by Zombywoof when my Ipad Pro was about shut down due to a low battery and I hit send before it ran out of power.

When I was reading some of his postings I went a "tad" negative and violated my personal philosophy of "comfort of opinion versus discomfort of thought".

Thank you for your service to our country

[BluSdUp]

Thank you ,Sir.
And a great thanks to You and Canada.
Google : Little Norway.
During the WWII the RNAF did training on Toronto Island until it was moved to Muskoka under a Lend Lease agreement.

Advanced training out west on the Harward. Later NATO training in Gimli with 120 T-33.
Canada play a absolute critical role in NATO, with the Aurora at one point you were the best. You would come over and find stuff we could not with the P3-Orion.And we were second only to Canada.
At one point you even found some stuff that you were not supposed to find!

Anyway,Between Norway Island and Canada there was not much moving that was not detected.
Just about every new USSR aircraft was intercepted by RNAF as they came out from Kola.
How they would have loved the Arrow full of missiles if it one day went hot.

Finaly
Mostly Harmless:
Fantastic video, what a gang.
With regards to FBV on the Arrow , are we talking some basic stabilization system for the handling of of the delta wing.

Regards
Cpt B

[Zombywoof]

I worked at NATO HQ at SACLANT REPEUR in mid 80Yes, I'm sure you did a fine job there keeping the latrines clean and the floors polished.

Tell us again how the US feared Canada was going to "go communist". Bwah ha ha, I just love that one. :D

It is the most odd program cancellation in military history.There's nothing odd about it. Canada did not, and does not, need a manned supersonic interceptor, and cancelling the program was the correct decision, one which cost Dief the Chief dearly.

please do not call anyone a fool, OK!Here's lookin' at you, kid! :ok:

[Zombywoof]

If you are of the coast of Newfoundland in you missile boomer you have company...One thing fore sure, you would never get in a position to fire anything.You'll forgive me if I don't share your confidence in NATO's anti-submarine capability. Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How would a supersonic interceptor protect Canada from an attack by nuclear missiles? Never mind, we both know the answer.

You can argue the program should have continued for the purpose of exporting the aircraft, and that argument has some validity. But you cannot argue the Arrow was needed for the defence of Canada in the nuclear age.

[BluSdUp]

Who needs an enemy with friends like You!

[Mostly Harmless]

Zombywoof, thank you for mistaking me for a well researched and published author. A very nice compliment. But why precede it with name calling? := Tsk, tsk.

You have me confused and curious about something. If no one had bombers, why did the Soviet Union keep so many of their Bears flying? Why did they develop the Blackjack? Why, for that matter, does the US maintain a sizeable fleet of B-52's and a smaller number of B-1 and B-2 bombers? All of them armed with nuclear weapons throughout the late 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's? Why, even today these bombers still have nuclear bombs available to use. Or, are they all hoaxes like... I don't know... the moon landing or the pyramids?

Looks like Wikipedia needs you to amend this page for them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_triad

[Mostly Harmless]

BluSDUp, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I found it very interesting.

[Flash2001]

The Arrow replacements weren't subsonic (F101, F104). We used to call the Bomarc the "Civil Service" because it won't work and you can't fire it.

After an excellent landing etc...

[paradoxbox]

This find is amazing news. Are they going to bring it up and restore it or ??

It is a huge coincidence, just a few days ago I was complaining to a friend about how badly Canada screwed itself by cancelling the Arrow program. I've always been really bitter about that whole deal.

I hope someday that Canada can build another aircraft of the Arrow caliber. That thing probably would have been serving well into the 90's or 2000's.

[Zombywoof]

why did the Soviet Union keep so many of their Bears flying? Why did they develop the Blackjack? Why, for that matter, does the US maintain a sizeable fleet of B-52's and a smaller number of B-1 and B-2 bombers? These are kept operational in case a massive attack using conventional weapons becomes necessary.

Would you say there is a credible threat of an attack on Canada using conventional weapons?

[tasspook]

But you cannot argue the Arrow was needed for the defence of Canada in the nuclear age. As long as the enemy deploys nuclear capable long-range bombers (in the nuclear age), nations are going to (and did) design, build and deploy long-ranger supersonic interceptors. Or is Canada the only nation on your ****list??? Stop being such a tw@t.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning All:

A retired R.C.A.F Colonel and I have shared coffee's over the years on what could have been if it was not for that "failed prairie lawyer" we had the misfortune of having as a Prime Minister during this period.

This morning we reviewed this paper written by Professor Rod Tennyson of the University of Toronto for Aerospace Studies which I found to be a very interesting read.

3050

3051

3052

3053

3054

[J.O.]

Thanks for sharing that, very interesting!

[Mostly Harmless]

These are kept operational in case a massive attack using conventional weapons becomes necessary.

Would you say there is a credible threat of an attack on Canada using conventional weapons?


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/1d/1dbc58495eef68075bcd748204b3ed751db6d0f804d2f271e58156be065e 226f.jpg

[alexguru]

Wasn't one of the reasons for cancellation the US abandoning the Sparrow 2 missile (due to it being a technical failure) and the resultant cost burden that fell on Canada to try and bring the weapon system to maturity.


A fast shiny plane that can't shoot anything down is not real useful...

[wrenchalot]

There is a book by Peter Zuuring called the Arrow Scrapbook; the book contains lots of memos, letters, comments, between the Air Force(the customer), and Avro.
After reading this, you'll come away with a very different reason for cancelling the project.
The official reason may not be the actual reason.
Cheers

[BluSdUp]

I am going to dig out the book: There never was an Arrow.
Highly recommended.
Also getting the Arrow Scrapbook.

Can anyone remember if the Arrow had machine guns?
That was the big problem with the initial Phantom , no bullets. just missiles in Nam, not so great against the MIG in dogfights.

Anyway, if the Sparrow was not ready I am sure the good people at Avro had plan B with other missiles for the Great shiny jet.

That bomb bay could facilitate a huge load, never mind wing mounted stuff.

It was a great platform and had huge potential.

Hope they recover and display the test scale models so the young Canadians can realize what Canada had , and still have.

Remember Bombardier has a great potential in the civilian sector.

There is a reason Boeing is aggressive .
Do not let history repeat itself , hedge around them.

Do not let local politics sink another great Canadian product.

Off flying the old 737.
regards
Cpt B

[WingSlinger]

You guys should look at a 4 volume book "Destruction of a Dream" by Marc-André Valiquette.

It is a very comprehensive collection of pictures, documents, and analysis of what was happening at a time and what ultimately happened.


Google it, I can’t post a link. It’s availabel at
aviationworld dot net