Where is the HKAOA heading?

[Liam Gallagher]

Having read El Presidilgo’s message today, I am getting increasingly worried as to where we, as a union, are heading. I thought we had industrial leverage with the Training Ban and Contract Compliance. What’s happened, where’s it gone, what have I missed?

I can’t help but see HPE as everyone sitting in a tent drinking the company’s koolaid, breathing in the company’s second-hand smoke, pretending to be airline managers and emerging from the tent intoxicated from their BS and announcing that it’s in our best interest to drop the Training Ban, drop our pants and touch our toes.

I’m not against employing a financial analyst, goodness knows we need help, but let’s be realistic. He’s not going to see anything the company don’t want him to see. Cathay are constantly audited and have to brief regulators, investors and lenders. This is very comfortable territory for them.

Again, I’m not taking anything away from what the Analyst may find, but I would ask that everyone remembers these numbers. All these numbers come from the company and I take them at face value.

1. The best profit the company ever made was in 2010. In that year some extraordinary profits occurred, but stripping them out, CX/KA profit was $HK9.5bn ($HK9,500m).
2. The company tells us that the Fuel Hedging losses are real expenses, not funny accounting. They say that they actually wrote out cheques for these amounts, $8.5bn in 2015 and 2016 and $3.2bn for the first six months of this year.
3. So in the 30 month period 2015- Jun 2017 we paid HK$19.2bn cash to the Fuel Hedging Markets. Chuck in HK$500m for Cargo Fines, that’s HK$19.7bn. Now let’s compare that to 30 month’s of record profit of HK$23.75bn; not dissimilar I would suggest.

Bottom line: Is it time to take a “wee break” from talks? Management can try and sweep the Fuel Hedging losses under the carpet, but let’s not forget that we are flying into one hell of a headwind. Essentially, (they say) we are presently paying the equivalent of our best profit (2010) in cash, to the Fuel Hedgers every year. But this headwind doesn’t last forever. Perhaps the smart move is to step away and return when the headwinds decrease. Let the company deal with the training backlog, resignations and delays. If/when they want our help, they know the HKAOA’s phone number.

[goathead]

Because D the TC is DELUSIONAL , and a DEER in the headlights.More HPE CPS blah blah blah , it feels like a management update , repeatedly saying the same thing over and over and over
WHY are we going 50/50? FFS ......
It goes on and on.....

[BlunderBus]

Certainly nowhere with statutory holiday pay !! The girls settled theirs in a blink.. audit? What's new? The Aoa pre 49ers thought of it all before. Lacking the same absence of originality as our employers.

[SweepTheLeg]

"We’ve now reached a critical phase in the discussions on HPE/CPS, and given our financial results, the next steps will be difficult for us all. It is clear that we need to make changes in FOP so that we meet our financial targets and also ensure we remain a competitive and sustainable airline. There will need to be compromise and substantial savings achieved. "

WHY ARE WE TALKING? Darryl are your self ambitions to go into management really so important that you are willing to throw the entire pilot body under the bus?

GC wtf are you doing???

[GTC58]

If the rumours are true it sounds like ARAPA is dead and 20/40/60 will be the new reality.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

thats the thing about rumours, they are just that

[Trafalgar]

I have to agree. With the non-stop rhetoric from the company, the AOA should politely withdraw. We are basically being conned into taking responsibility for possibly cutting further the pay and benefits of the pilot group. We have had no profit sharing for years, no proper pay raises, a stripping away of our RP's...and basically a complete devaluation of the value of our careers. At what point do we say 'enough'? D, it's time to stand up, not lie down. There is no happy outcome 'negotiating' with this lot. They are not sincere, and simply using a manufactured crisis as an opportunity. Even Goldman Sachs said last week that CX is going to see a substantial improvement to their numbers, and raised their target for the stock price. Enough. And to AT and RH, this is one (of many i'm sure) C@T's that will be resigning the next day if you tamper with housing. Please, call my bluff....

[bm330]

Read the Friday Flyer.

Not going anywhere except downhill and everyone is holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

[Ipad]

Traf and all the other stupid loudmouths here, how about you take responsibility for the failed TA. You can say what you like but the pilots now realise that we should have grabbed that. ie. you don't know what you are talking about. Yes the company would have still come after us but our starting position would have been higher than now re salary and HKPA and more locked into our COS!!!. Clause 7 - give me a break, are we now all powerful because we resisted that evil or is it now a red herring and we about to be done anyway?

Traf your rantings have failed the pilot body and assisted in putting us in a worse position. Yes please resign.

[OK4Wire]

You speak utter bollox, ipad.

[clear.right]

It is really quite interesting listening to you lot.

Just wondering how many of you took the time to go the AOA focus night?

Did you ask the HPE guy and the accountant the really tough questions you wanted to be answered?

Also wondering how many of you ran for the open AOA GC positions in order to improve your position and help your AOA with improving our position.

I'm gonna go with "No to busy", No I wasn't there, and quite evidently none of you did.

If you can't do anything except complain to your echo chamber, perhaps it better doing nothing at all and st*u.

I do agree with OK, iPad is without a clue, except for the Traf remark!

[mngmt mole]

hmmm. "stupid loudmouths". How old are you? My 7 year old sometimes slips and spouts such inanities. Traf (and other considered and experienced others) speak intelligently in regards to the history, and current situation in respect of the pilot group. You might want to heed that. The last TA was FLAWED. The company wanted us to vote for it for a reason. I would rather fight the good fight and lose, than be lying on my back victimised by the machinations of this company. Someone like yourself will have a worthless career because you are easily bought off. Nothing good in this industry has come easy, or without a fight. Grow a pair.

[Ipad]

Ah yes I didn't join CX for a financial gain I joined to "fight the good fight". Some of you are living on a different planet to the rest of us who would like to achieve the best pay/work ratio to provide for financial security for our families. The reward/risk suggested that the TA was worth accepting. Does anyone now believe that the HPE will lead to a better pay/work ratio than we are on now?

[mngmt mole]

So, your opinion that the TA was 'worth accepting' concludes that those that disagree are "stupid loudmouths". You are an immature child and I suggest you go sit in the corner until you can converse properly with your elders. Seriously, what pair of short pants did you just change into? The MAJORITY of voting members rejected the TA. Perhaps you might want to consider that. Loudmouth.

[Xwindldg]

I think it's hilarious how we drop CC during a typhoon and then the very next Friday flyer she says thanks and by the way we are cutting your pay/benefits.

[mngmt mole]

Sydneyman. That is irrelevant. Any vote is only relevant to it's time and place. The very issues that killed the last TA should kill any similar offer. Money should not be paramount to long term career considerations. If you think that the last offer was 'sufficient', then you WILL have a compromised and miserable career. This company and it's pilot's have reached a turning point, and how we now react and resist will determine whether or not you and your families have a career and future worth investing in. Don't let the obstinance and arrogance of the Swire's dissuade you from standing up for proper conditions and treatment. That is what the last vote was about. So should the next one be.

[mngmt mole]

The Swire's are attempting to ram through career damaging changes to your contracts, using a crisis that THEY created through incompetence and arrogance. At what point will the pilots of this airline realise that we can't cower down as we have always done? There will be no CAREER worth having if CX achieve their aims. It is time to show our management that WE do our jobs reliably, safely and loyally. It is they that are the problem. No to a further degradation to our T and C's. If we all don't now stand up to that, we will have nothing left to stand for.

[Shep69]

I think an important take away for someone who might spend significant time here--or is just getting started and not simply riding things out for a few years-- is how much of your life do you want to dedicate toward someone who would rather, all things considered, go out and blow your money at the track. Rather than paying you what you rightfully deserve considering the circumstances and where you live.

And is willing to go to any length possible NOT to pay you what you deserve rather than righting the ship and making peace.

Now it may be possible that his brother in law owns the track but stuff like this is discovered in time. And doesn't change the fact you are getting willfully stiffed.

[cxorcist]

I think an important take away for someone who might spend significant time here--or is just getting started and not simply riding things out for a few years-- is how much of your life do you want to dedicate toward someone who would rather, all things considered, go out and blow your money at the track. Rather than paying you what you rightfully deserve considering the circumstances and where you live.

And is willing to go to any length possible NOT to pay you what you deserve rather than righting the ship and making peace.

Now it may be possible that his brother in law owns the track but stuff like this is discovered in time. And doesn't change the fact you are getting willfully stiffed.

Riding things out? Is that what you're doing Shep? Of course you've got a gamble of your own going, right? Ironically, since you have one foot out the door as well, you ALSO are playing with other peoples' money. Is it so different?

[Liam Gallagher]

Has El Presiligio lost his mind? He's talking about giving concessions if the company's BS is verified by a third party. That's your career he's talking about.

Bolleaux to any third party. What about the membership that voted for him? I don't remember any talk of concessions when he stood for election. I do remember lots of spin and promises. Maybe he's got a big glowing MANAGEMENT CAREER EICAS blinding him, but WTF are the rest of the GC doing?

To the new guys coming onto the GC. You got my support because all but one of you had nothing in your manifestos about concessions and I do hope you will be true to your word and put a stop to this madness before we witness the biggest own goal in aviation history.

One more time... WTF?

[Average Fool]

It's just beyond comprehension and a complete shame what the union leadership is doing.

The last time concessions were made it was rewarded with flat out lies. At least then there was some legitimacy to the "loss".

This round?

There should be daily picketing in front of CX village, from ALL the emoployees who are going to pay for those costly mistakes.

[Shep69]

This has to be a monty python sketch or a wind up.

But it might not be all THAT funny.

"Independent Third Party" eh ?

If I had a nickel for every bizillionaire living high on the hog who was broke on paper....

Yet there was a whole bunch of money somewhere; he just enjoyed it at a comfortable distance--it often dwelling in trusts or corporations that metered things to him (or let him live in their palaces and play with their toys) out of the goodness of their hearts while assuming his debts as well. All perfectly legal.

Not that hard to do if the money's somewheres else. And I'd challenge anyone (even a really really good third party) to figure out how money moves around in China. Or accurately figure out with objectivity all the convoluted deals we might be in. Even the placard of who owned what attached to the cockpit of the airplane I last flew did nothing but confuse me. So I think believing anything about dire straits one does at one's own peril. And mark my words buying into this will get you nothing but ever declining conditions. Charlie Brown is a cartoon character; real people wise up after the football is yanked a couple times.

Even the current president of the US is reported to have lost close to a billion bux (taking a hefty completely legal tax write off during the process) and doesn't seem much the worse for wear--or of having it ever impact his lifestyle or money making.

All I can say is WOW. If anyone is seriously considering any form of concession (especially in today's pilot climate) they deserve whatever happens to them. Win-Wins might be a different story, but a win-win assumes BOTH entities emerge better off (and it's quite OK if one of the entities 'wins' more than the other so long as they BOTH are better off after the deal); not that one has to give something up for both to win.

[GTC58]

In the end the HKAOA membership has to vote on any concessions. If some feel that DS is working against the wishes of the HKAOA membership there is always to option to bring forward a motion of no confidence and vote on it.

[Farman Biplane]

It is all a grand setup!
DS/HPE/CX arrive at a turd, sprinkle some fake gold flakes on it and try to sell it to us with a GC recommendation to vote yes.
Membership votes NO and then CX has a mandate to unilaterally introduce said turd without fake gold sprinkles!
Membership votes YES and has to live with the turd!
Please remember, we are pilots, not plumbers!

[SweepTheLeg]

So finally the company's new strategy becomes clear. Plant one of their managers as the head of the AOA.

F*cking devious.

[Oasis]

Dear DS

Towards the end you said 'that the pilots are finally seen as equal stakeholders'

I do not desire to be seen as an equal stakeholder, which would never happen anyway.
I also don't need to be seen as an equal stakeholder in order to 'feel' part of the culture, history and the product, I can do that on my own terms.

Also I would suggest that if you are giving away (our) concessions due to their stuff ups, there is a clause somewhere that our concessions are null and void as soon as the hedging contract has expired.

This is all temporary y'all!
Let's make sure the concessions are as well.

[Trafalgar]

I don't need to, nor will I agree to, make concessions to give our management a win. I have given NOTHING but concessions since I joined. I am not doing so again. Eventually you get pushed too far. And to the GC, grow a pair. We didn't elect you to give away 'our' farm. It's about what pay rise, what improved rostering system( and that is the win for the company) what improved basings and what improved housing we can expect, as those things have been PROMISED for years (and improved housing was agreed several years ago). Otherwise, walk away and those of us who do have a pair will prepare to take several weeks off 'unfit'. Time to prepare to demonstrate the ultimate value of our goodwill.

[BlunderBus]

Farman I just loved the turd n sprinkles analogy!! 😃

[BlunderBus]

If you need a lesson in the truth just look back over your own contracts of the last 25 years...name a single aspect that ever got better?

[goathead]

We've been giving them 'concessions' for the past 2 decades. No more!
Please GC, STOP THE MADNESS!

Plus ONE!! FFS

[Liam Gallagher]

Meanwhile, over the road at Dragonair, nobody is asking the KA pilots for concessions. Why? Well they weren't stupid enough to demand HPE talks right at the moment management is looking to hit budgetary targets.

WTF did the GC think was going to happen?

Timing is everything.

[landrecovery]

Seriously, our last couple of committees have polished the turd and handed it back.
At least the AOA attempted to fight. Our last few committees are management or Checkies.
Wonder why?
DPA should sue "Tickle me Elmo" for copyright

[Liam Gallagher]

TTW - Time to Worry??

I always worry when someone feels they have to assure me they have my best interests at heart. I should know that from their actions, not from some trite words.

I am so glad the HKAOA will only agree to concessions if some analyst in the US confirms the BS figures the Company chooses to show him. Do us fee paying members get a say or are we expected to place our rubber stamp on all this nonsense once sufficient Koolaid has been gulped.

WTF WTF WTF WTF and say again WTF.

[betpump5]

I agree, worst communication ever in the history of the AOA, and at a time when we needed to hear something encouraging.

All the update had was more bleating about HPE. Lame, weak, and no leadership. P1ss poor update.

[Dragon69]

Wether you have DS or RF as chairman is irrelevant. How far is the membership willing to take this? Are most willing to strike?

You can't show up with a knife to a gun fight and you certainly can't show up to a poker game unless you're ready to lose all your chips. So before you criticize the AoA leadership, ask yourself if you're ready for the nuclear option.

[betpump5]

Yes and No. Even I am able to admit that the ultimate in industrial action would be a difficult thing for me to consider. And I would like there to be a litmus test along the lines of Maximum safety before a full on strike. However..

You need a good leader to follow when you go over the top. RF is the only one who has shown any leadership of late. Just read his posts. Puts the current chairman and GC to shame.

[Dragon69]

Yes and No. Even I am able to admit that the ultimate in industrial action would be a difficult thing for me to consider. And I would like there to be a litmus test along the lines of Maximum safety before a full on strike. However..

You need a good leader to follow when you go over the top. RF is the only one who has shown any leadership of late. Just read his posts. Puts the current chairman and GC to shame.

betbump, as I posted in another thread, you do realize that the previous sh!t TA almost passed under his tenure right. IMO RF in the end became wishy washy. Not exactly the type you want when the going gets tough or the sh!t hits the fan.

[Ipad]

And how will that previous sh!t TA look compared with what is coming and we will all sign up for? I expect that TA will look like the holy grail. You will fold, we always have done.

[Liam Gallagher]

eer.... iPad, hate to rain on your parade matey, but had the TA been accepted there is no way you would be getting any of the so called "benefits". The Company would still be coming after your COS, except the Training Department would be full and we would all still be bound by Clause 7 and the Company's lawyers would be poised to sue anyone that breached.

You saw the TA as a gift horse, I saw it as a Trojan Horse. Anna's recent email says "eyes right, ewes wrong".

Where's STW with his "I told you so"?

[betpump5]

Dragon, ask about the sh1t show that was happening behind the scenes at the time within the GC/NC.

Thankfully the majority saw through it all and voted against it.

[hkgfooey]

The Company would still be coming after your COS, except the Training Department would be full and we would all still be bound by Clause 7 and the Company's lawyers would be poised to sue anyone that breached.

That clause was a two way street, like all such negotiated agreements. You had your chance before the agreement to get it changed, for the life of the agreement, both side had to stick to what they agreed on. This honeymoon period of industrial peace is common in any such agreement in first world countries.

We are almost half way though the 3 year period now, and we have nothing to show for it. Except more threats of items that would have been protected (by having them included in your COS) are now available for cutting because they are policy.

[Liam Gallagher]

HKFooey,

Nobody's going to voluntarily agree to concessions, the DFO knows that. The DFO is just preparing the ground to issue a "sign or be fired". If you weren't around in 1999, ask an oldf@rt to explain what's about to happen.

Soon, it won't matter what's written in your COS and what's not. Had you accepted last year's TA, it would also be in the DFO's crosshairs. However, clause 7 was not dependent on the rest of TA, it would have survived a "signed or be fired" and limited your ability to defend yourself. This was all explained on the HKAOA forums last year. That's why clause 7 was so dangerous.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Liam,

last years TA included specifically a 2 year housing deal, plus 5% and no productivity increase.

Of course we should have signed, don't spin it. We were fools.

[Dragon69]

Liam,

last years TA included specifically a 2 year housing deal, plus 5% and no productivity increase.

Of course we should have signed, don't spin it. We were fools.

STW, with comments like that it's no wonder people question your intelligence. So we got nothing and they still coming to steal from us under the guise of financial hardship. And you think had the TA passed, with the extra sweeteners that were added as bait, that they would have left us alone under the same guise of financial hardship. That makes a lot of sense.

[channis]

FFS... we voted a GC who pretty much put thru the 3 men europe when leading the ftl team!!!

What do you guys expect?

Brace for impact is all I can say...

[Start Fore]

It's simple. A recruitment ban.

[IDS]

Start Fore, last time that was in place I honored it, only to find out later that guys were happily joining no matter what. Forget it.

[Jumpjim]

As an interested observer from the UK would you mind me asking what CX are proposing for you guys? I gather it’s not good... (BA 78 P1)

[ron burgandy]

STW get this through your head. Even if the TA which you so long for was voted in, are you that naive to believe the DFO in her current rantings, wouldn't have made the same statements about pay and increment freezes? So you would have still lost your 2%, and have no industrial recourse.
You could have agreed to everything they wanted, it wouldn't have stopped them losing 2.5B USD and counting on hedging, and subsequently come looking to everyone else to fix their f@&kup.

[OK4Wire]

Exactly, Ron. It worries me that STW does not understand that at all.

[Uberskyjockey]

Fear Not !
I cannot recall any AOA president or GC member rising above the rank of STC after betraying their members.
The one thing Swire's value over everything is loyalty and 'selling out' ( even if it is the enemy ) is frowned upon.
Old school.

[hyg]

Exactly, Ron. It worries me that STW does not understand that at all.

you could not imagine how many people don't understand, it took me a whole long haul flight to and from hk, while in the seat trying to explain to the SO and I still think he reckon it was a good idea to sign it back then claiming at least he would have got some money first:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Brokeidiot]

Curtain rod not sure if that is entirely accurate the company would of come after ARAPA now granted but they would of had to do it through a COS amendment then or forcing everyone to sign something... now they bypassing that by reinterpreting suitable accommodation it seems. We might of been in a stronger position had they of been forced to make us all sign a new contract. Contract law in Hong Kong is our only strength it seems.

[Bobtrot]

Presumably if ALL Captains carried out all landings then, coincident with the expiration of ARAPA the majority of F/O's would be out of landing recency and unable to operate?

[DessertRat]

Broke idiot:

Would HAVE. Would HAVE.