KLM lands in typhoon in Hong Kong

[Maisk Rotum]

KLM lands at HKG at 1030 local in the middle of Typhoon Hato, the centre of which was just 50km south at the time.

The only arrival for three hours!

Heroes or Zeros??

SPECI VHHH 230222Z 07043G61KT 1700 1300W R07R/0650D R25L/0500D R07L/0800D R25R/0650D +SHRA FEW012 SCT025 27/25 Q0984 TEMPO 1500 +SHRA FEW008 SCT015CB
METAR VHHH 230230Z 07045G60KT 2200 R07R/0900U R25L/0600U R07L/1100U R25R/0650U +SHRA FEW012 SCT025 27/25 Q0984 TEMPO 1500 +SHRA FEW008 SCT015CB
METAR VHHH 230300Z 09055G72KT 2200 R07R/0700D R25L/0400N R07L/0750D R25R/0400D +SHRA FEW012 SCT022 27/25 Q0983 TEMPO 1500 +SHRA FEW008 SCT015CB

[Shot Nancy]

Might have landed in a lull.
I landed in HKG in a typhoon once, 55kts straight down the strip, and smooth.

[Nightstop]

Wind down the runway by the looks of it. On the 21st of January 1993 I landed a 146 at Glasgow in 260/80. The roof came off the Terminal building that night! Michael Fish, the TV weatherman, said "not to worry, there's no hurricane on the way" in answer to a viewers question

[fox niner]

what is the maximum wind speed for door operation? So how are you going to disembark? Or evacuate if necessary? Do the slides still work at 70 kts?

[falconeasydriver]

Its KLM...they are the masters of their art, just ask one of them, the door limit if I'm not mistaken is 60kts (744/777)...which also corresponds to the windspeed every airline Ive worked for considers the airfield closed. I'm thinking the Skipper mustve had ozzie parents.

[Teevee]

Wind down the runway by the looks of it. On the 21st of January 1993 I landed a 146 at Glasgow in 260/80. The roof came off the Terminal building that night! Michael Fish, the TV weatherman, said "not to worry, there's no hurricane on the way" in answer to a viewers question ��

Nightstop if that was the same hurricane it must have been a real doozy ... because he said that in 1987!:)

[RLinSW4]

Errm - Mr Fish's no hurricane announcement was in October 1987 wasn't it ?

[opsjockey]

1993 was the 'Braer Storm'....

Lifted from Wiki;
The Braer Storm of January 1993 was the most intense extratropical cyclone ever recorded over the northern Atlantic Ocean. Developing as a weak frontal wave on 8 January 1993, the system moved rapidly northeast. The combination of the absorption of a second low-pressure area to its southeast, a stronger than normal sea surface temperature differential along its path, and the presence of a strong jet stream aloft led to a rapid strengthening of the storm, with its central pressure falling to an estimated 914 hPa (914 mb; 27.0 inHg) on 10 January. Its strength was well predicted by forecasters in the United Kingdom, and warnings were issued before the low initially developed.

[Capn Bloggs]

the door limit if I'm not mistaken is 60kts
Aerobridge?

[salad-dodger]

Yep, Mr Fish made that call in '87. Wonder how many times you've told this story and got away with it?

[Nightstop]

Whoops! OK, OK. It was windy though

[falconeasydriver]

Aerobridge?

Perhaps....but no bags id be guessing....

[rog747]

we had a second hurricane/storm after 1987 in UK - it was in the January like the above posters state and i think Mr Fish did say dont worry its not another hurricane coming or something like that lol

[Capn Bloggs]

but no bags id be guessing....
Oh yea, forgot about that! :{

Still, for those who carry all their stuff as carry-on, no worries! :ok:

[the_stranger]

The door limit on a 747 40kts for operation and 65 kts when opened. When in an aerobridge that should not be a problem, unless the bridge itself has a limit lower then that.
Cargo doors might be a thing, but personally I would like to be at my destination without my immediate luggage instead of somewhere else with my bags.

Regarding slides, I am not aware of a hard limit on those, however there are cases in which wind caused a problem with speeds as low as 28kts.
https://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_may-june05.pdf
Boeing states modern slides must be able to deploy (and presumably used) in a 25kts wind from any direction.
Aviation Safety: Evolution of Airplane Interiors (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2011_q4/2/#sidebar_2011q4-1)
It probably comes down to crew opinions of what is an acceptable risk regarding evacuation and slides.

[Mike6567]

The problem I found with a 64kt wind was not the landing or take off (within crosswind limits) but the walk around check in-between.
I had to get a very heavy ground crewman to help support and stop me being blown away.

[OldLurker]

Heroes or Zeros??Neither, I would say – just professionals. As falconeasydriver says, KLM are masters of their art (except for that fool at Tenerife in 1977) and I'd trust them to get down safely if they could, and to divert if they couldn't.

I'd like to see a video of that landing though!

This report says at least one other crew tried it (Ethiopian) but diverted.
Only one plane lands in Hong Kong International Airport as Typhoon Hato wreaks havoc with flight schedules (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2107940/only-one-plane-lands-hong-kong-international-airport-typhoon)

[MATELO]

Neither, I would say – just professionals. As falconeasydriver says, KLM are masters of their art (except for that fool at Tenerife in 1977) and I'd trust them to get down safely if they could, and to divert if they couldn't.


Just out of interest OL, would/could they have done this landing at Kai Tak ?? or was that a whole new ball game back then?

[OldLurker]

I expect there are pros here who can answer that – I'm only a humble PPL and SLF, though I've been on the jump seat of a 737 for approach and landing at Kai Tak, and I've sat out a typhoon in HK (on the ground, thankfully). I'd have thought that even if the wind was straight down the runway at Kai Tak (as it seems to have been for this landing at Chek Lap Kok), the wind reflections off the mountains and the buildings would have made it very dangerous either to approach runway 13, or to go around from an approach to 31.

[Enos]

Where were Cathay, Dragon Air and other local operators?

If the locals have pulled the pin, there's often a good reason why !!

[the_stranger]

If the locals have pulled the pin, there's often a good reason why !![/quote]That's not always a good way to decide to fly or not. Local operators might be quicker to cancel their flights not because of out of limit weather, but because they can solve the resulting problems with rebooking easier if they have a "stable" new, if reduced, schedule. Cancelling flights ahead of time also prevents hugh amounts of waiting and disrupted passengers.
On AMS KLM is ussually the first to cancel a lot of flights proactively when a storm is predicted. That would mean nobody could be flying into AMS anymore if your reasoning holds true 100%

[scotbill]

Would rate as a strong breeze in Benbecula

[slast]

25 years ago a night IGS at Kai Tak in a typhoon was only my 3rd sector 744 sector after being let loose i/c, and first actual landing in HKG. It was the return leg of a Seoul shuttle. With a big typhoon forecast to arrive at exactly our scheduled arrival time, departure was preceded by discussion with ops in London.
Me: "With this forecast there's a good chance you won't have an aircraft for the London departure - what's your preference if we don't get in - Manila? Taipei? Back here (Seoul)? Bangkok?"
Ops: "We don't care where you end up as long you get out of INC (Seoul) on time... There was a similar situation a month ago, we delayed 3 hours to let it clear but our passengers rioted in the terminal because Cathay and Korean left on time. They did divert and our flight arrived much earlier, but the local papers were full of negative stories, we don't want a repetition of that, so just fill up and see how you get on!".

The IGS was certainly exciting in those conditions, cloudbase and visibility were also close to minimums. Luckily for me the wind was reasonably in line and there was a break enabling us to get in on the first attempt. A certain amount of fizzy liquid had to be liberated from the F/C bar for use in the hotel.....

[Metro man]

At least ATC would have been happy because he could have vacated on A7 with that wind even on a wet runway.

[Bleve]

Heroes or Zeros??

Why only two possibilities? How about a third: lucky.

I think Shot Nancy might be correct: They landed in a lull.

I once flew into HKG about four hours after a Typhoon had passed and it was still very windy and turbulent. Nobody was getting in - everyone was going around due to Windshear. About 20nm out, we hit some some very short, but very sharp, turbulence that physically tripped a couple of BTB's (they reset OK). And yet when we had our go, it was as smooth as a baby's bum down finals, in the flare and on the landing roll-out. The aircraft immediately behind us went around due Windshear. Were we heroes or zeros? No, we were very lucky.

[Sailvi767]

The problem with wind down the runway at 60 knots is not landing. It's taxing after landing that is the issue. Many aircraft will weathervane into the wind especially on wet taxiways.

[llondel]

The Michael Fish quote is only part of what he said. He was correct in that there was no hurricane, and he did then state that the weather would become very windy. You can have hurricane-force winds without the hurricane, which is a fairly well-defined atmospheric structure.

[lurkio]

Don't defend Fish. He got it wrong on the day and even had the temerity to try and heap all the blame onto Bill Giles when Fish himself retired a short while ago.
When I landed at about 7.30 that evening the Jersey met men were only calling for gusts of 50 knots or so overnight.
It seems nobody had a clue what was about to happen apart, I am led to believe, from the French forecasters who were warning about the outcome a short while before it happened.

[rak64]

The problem with wind down the runway at 60 knots is not landing. It's taxing after landing that is the issue. Many aircraft will weathervane into the wind especially on wet taxiways.

Ironically not wind vane is the worst problem. I have seen a Donier shooting down engines directly after vacating rwy. Because engine turbine temperature reached it's limit. Wind is so strong to virtually close the outlets. Even modern aircrafts use plastic or carbon in and around engines what can melt. If need to taxi in high tail wind, some AFMs require minimum N2. That mean constant breaking during that portion.
Wind in storms should not read as 45 knots, gusts 60. It is correctly 60 knots wind but gusts are negative, so in gusts wind is decreased to 45 knots. Strong negative gusts can affect lift because airspeed could be gone. Turbulence near the ground can eat a substantial part of aircraft performance. What is about single engine performance in case you need it.

[Meikleour]

Kai Tak memories.

IIRC there was a blanket 55kt restriction put on movements at the airport due to concerns about loose ground equipment like airstairs and trollies being blown about and damaging aircraft and/or personnel.
In 1988 I brought a B747classic which had diverted, back from Taipei to Kai Tak at 3 in the morning local time. As we came down the IGS the wind at 1,000ft was 190/55 (IGS course 088 ) The touchdown wind was 090/38 (13 course 135 ) and just to make it really interesting the VASIS were switched off (this was SOP for winds over 30kt ) Passing the checkerboard it was extremely rough and I am sure I saw a groundspeed of 90kt on the INS. Interestingly, at Kai Tak it was usually most turbulent at around 500ft. but tended to smooth out below 100ft.!
Looking back over the mists of time I question whether that approach would have been allowed with a Windshear System fitted and it certainly would have violated what would be considered normal stable approach criteria that are used these days.
Despite it's challenges Kai Tak had a remarkably good safety record. Perhaps this had something to do with the amount of manual flying that was encouraged in that era?

[pax britanica]

Having flown in and out of Kindley field Bermuda over the eyars where winter winds are regular up at 45-50 gusting over 60 Kts and the runway is 60 degrees off the prevailing wind.

Given their is for the most part no alternate runway -its almost always a case of fly back the way you came some crews were a bit more determined than others so it seemed but given the fact that two 727s had wing tip strikes inside three years I think the crews were all pretty respectful in the winter months. (logic not triangle based)
Hurricanes were not unknown and in that even flights were pretty much cancelled but the USN P3s still operated . However they had great range and endurance and there were cases where they carefully shadowed the hurricanes eye so they could land in the 15-20 minutes of calm.

other very windy places i have experienced were AMS , so share the views about the experience KL crews have in strong/crosswinds and Tokyo Narita , always a favourite with the scary approach photographer community.

To back up the ground handling and its dangers I was in berlina couple of years ago and on the afternoon of my evening departure much of Europe was hit with a terirfic windstorm. Almost all flights from about 3 30 to 8 30 at TXL were cancelled and I wasn't in the least surprised. My BA 321 landed but then couldnt open the doors because of fears for the pax going down long open airstairs (see below) and for the shock on the hinges of the upward opening belly hold doors so the inbound pax had to sing for their luggage and those of us on the outbound were told it couldn't be loaded.
Worst of all was when they swung the jetty out towards the aircraft a really powerful gust blew both the glass doors of f the nose of the jetty and flung them back the whole length of it smashing to pieces just behind the gate crew who luckily were positioned a little way to the side of the landward end of the jetyt- a terrific noise and ensuing terrorist scare but the doors were frightful mess and god knows what they would have done to any one they hit.

So as some have indicated , an airport ramp in a gale is no place to be if you are a footsoldier even if there are still a few movements

[stator vane]

"The door limit on a 747 40kts for operation and 65 kts when opened"

the 737 has a similarly worded limitation. My first thought upon each reading was: Wind is 39 kts..good to go. But if after opening it, the wind increases above 40, can you legally close it? And god forbid that after you opened it...the wind picked up to above 65 knots! We're in big trouble then!!! ;(

(This is meant in a light hearted laughing mood-for those who have no real sense thereof)

[His dudeness]

I had to get a very heavy ground crewman to help support and stop me being blown away.

Thats why I´m fat...

[anxiao]

I feel sure that the KLM crew made the approach in the knowledge that their Chief Pilot would support their decision over the Monday morning quarterbacks in Media Management department who were terrified about the Twitter flurry from the ignorant.

Having made many approaches at Kai Tak and CLK in strong winds, I felt more assured back in the Kai Tak days when my chief pilot had my back and was always supportive of my decisions, even if they were over enthusiastic and too target oriented.

There are only a couple of pilot managers in CX now who would stand up for a captain who went the extra mile by using his superior skill set to ensure a successful outcome to a flight, and was criticised in the limp wrist media for so doing. Thanks MH

From the public data available on the KLM flight they did a very good job to get their passengers safely to their destination. Go Cloggies!

[RAT 5]

All this talk about for door limits: I once had a situation where there were limits for doors, airstairs and even external stairs. The wind was 'outside limits' for airstairs and the ground agent refused to bring external steps. So we parked with the a/c 90 degrees to the wind with the front door in the lee of the fuselage. There was very little wind affecting the front door or the airstairs. It was a synch. Everybody off and everybody on. The agent still refused the steps because the published wind from the tower was outside their limits. No props, we did it ourselves.
There is wind & wind. Are you telling me that the wind in lee of the terminal at the gate is the same as word given by the tower for the runway?

Regarding the decision about making the landing: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[ACMS]

Right, the outcome always justifies the means doesn't it.:D

If anything went wrong they would have been fried come Monday morning.
Brave gentleman indeed, some might say foolish.........

Old Pilots and bold Pilots, I think we know which category they fit into.:ouch:

[tescoapp]

come on a bet the arrival brief started along the lines of.

Right we will give it one shot to show willing and so the punters know we at least tried. After that we will head off to xyz.


Then at 1000

oh bollocks, stabilised, in limits, checklist complete.

Then taxing in

crap we are the only ones here, going to get ripped to shreds on pprune.

[Capn Bloggs]

Very good Tesco... :ok:

[ManaAdaSystem]

Are we now having a go at pilots who manage to land their aircraft successfully?
They landed, taxied and parked.
End of story.

[Metro man]

If you fly in conditions like that the risk of an accident is far greater. If lots of people fly in those conditions eventually someone will have a prang, either because he is in the wrong place at the wrong time or his skill level is exceeded.

Then an inquiry is held and questions are asked regarding whether it's a good idea to operate in conditions which come close to and can easily exceed design limits. Obvious and safe conclusion is no, and restrictions are put in place.

A year or two ago we were bashing Cebu Pacific for doing the same thing. If Cathay with their experience of typhoons/hurricanes/cyclones think it's a good idea to sit it out then it probably is.

[rob_ginger]

Despite it's challenges Kai Tak had a remarkably good safety record. Perhaps this had something to do with the amount of manual flying that was encouraged in that era? I remember talking to a Qantas pilot in the 80's who said that the safest place to land in a Qantas plane was Kai Tak - because the most practised sim. landing was a night landing at Kai Tak. They could do it in their sleep!

And I still remember that fun right turn at the checker-board on the hill, and peering down the wing into the apartments. Not so fun was one landing when at around 100 ft the air conditioning sucked in that sweet smell of sewage. For some reason it was particularly bad that day. Yuk!

[MATELO]

As SLF, A Kai Tak landing & Concorde JFK CANARSIE departure is something I will have to carry through life not achieving.

[Mr Mac]

Matelo
I was lucky and did get to fly a Kai Tak approach in the cockpit on CX 747 during an approaching typhoon in mid 8o,s. Crew were great and fully explained the approach and how they were going to cope with both the heavy rain and wind. All eyes forward looking for that Chequer board though that day as it came out of the cloud / mist /rain ! They put it down hard and taxied to gate no problem. All wanted to go to Aero Club to watch other approaches, (normal procedure then apparantly for some) but only 2 other A/C got in before airport shut, so beers were taken elsewhere.


Never did Concorde, although a colleague who then did quite a bit, always complained seats were too small, and his knees rubbed seat in front (6ft 2 ex Rugby player) so his knickname became "Concorde Knee" in the business.


Cheers
Mr Mac

[Hotel Tango]

I remember my first flight to Kai Tak and looking forward to the famous approach and landing. We came in from the other end!!! I did subsequently make a couple of Chequer Board landings, although not in the F/D. I can however lay claim to a cockpit Concorde JFK CANARSIE departure (and LHR landing) on what was my one and only Concorde flight. What I missed in my (pax) flying life was the Bristol Britannia and the VC-10.