Two Typhoons chasing a Puma

[rogcal]

I noticed a NOTAM this morning advising of fast jet intercepts in the locality of my strip and thought nothing more about it until later in the day I heard what was obviously a pair of Typhoons chasing each other around the sky which is very normal for this area.

Then I heard the sound of an eggbeater in among the cacophony of sound and on going outside watched the two Typhoons chasing the Puma which was maneuvering quite vigorously at low level.

I'd previously observed a similar scenario being played out in 2012 between two Typhoons and a Merlin, in the run up to the London Olympics and can only surmise this was another exercise to see if the Typhoon is a match against a low level, slow speed target.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the object of this exercise which appeared to follow the same pattern as the one in 2012 and with a similar outcome i.e Typhoons 0 Puma 1.

[60024]

I reckon you have answered your own question in line three....

[rogcal]

If that is the case then I'm surprised that there is a need to re-run an exercise that previously proved that the Typhoon was inadequate in this role.

[sycamore]

Actually they were re-running the exercise with Typhoons as the Hurris and Spits are temporarily grounded,as that might be a fairer fight....

[VX275]

Maybe it's the Puma crew under training and they've started with the Typhoons to give them some confidence.

[[email protected]]

Pretty normal heli vs FJ training for the benefit of both sides.

Have done Puma vs Lightning and Sea King vs Tornado in the past. ZD notch anyone?

Once the helo makes itself obvious to the FJ then it is a question of the FJ trying to get a guns or missile solution on the helo and the helo trying to avoid both.

1 vs 1 it is usually the helo that succeeds in frustrating the FJ but with 2 FJ on one helo the odds very much go the other way.

Bear in mind this is an unarmed helo - save for perhaps a GPMG or M3M, it would be a very different exercise against an Apache.

[Fareastdriver]

When flying a Puma on fighter affiliation one has to be careful not to drag the fighter into the ground.

[ORAC]

When flying a Puma on fighter affiliation one has to be careful not to drag the fighter into the ground. Set the floor, a kill is a kill....

[Bob Viking]

Crab.

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon? As awesome as the Apache is I don't think it's weapons would be of much use in that situation. I'd be more worried about a door or tail gunner with a GPMG!

BV

[Mr. Vice]

I think fast jet Vs low slow targets (especially Helicopters) is ultimately a game of cat and mouse against the clock- hide and seek.

The clock is ticking as a Fast Jet will be burning a LOT of fuel high energy manoeuvring down low trying to get weapons away, that doesn't include the fuel used looking for them in the first place or after they lose sight of them whilst fighting!

Mr Vice.

[Bing]

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon?

I'd have thought the 30mm gun with helmet mounted sight might substitute adequately for a door gunner...

[unmanned_droid]

Crab.

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon? As awesome as the Apache is I don't think it's weapons would be of much use in that situation. I'd be more worried about a door or tail gunner with a GPMG!

BV

I would imagine the manually aimed main gun could he quite annoying even if lock and lead isn't a supported function.

Apache has also been armed with air launched stingers on the tip position of the stub wings - two per side.

I also remember seeing a picture of an Israeli Apache with their short range air to air missile (python?)

[Bob Viking]

I am aware of the nature of the Apache gun but how is a mostly forward firing weapon going to be of use? Even with one guy flying and one guy aiming (if that is how it would be employed) it would need to either fly backwards or hover. Neither would be a great tactic against a marauding FJ.

If it has genuinely been fitted with A-A weapons that is news to me and I stand to be corrected. However I'm still not convinced.

BV

[Bob Viking]

A little research shows me Apache has been fitted with Stingers in trials. Designed to shoot down helicopters.

Still not convinced.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

BV may care to read this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

OTOH I also found this:

Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.

[MightyGem]

it would need to either fly backwards or hover.
Or just turn and face the on coming jet. :rolleyes:

[Bob Viking]

...which will helpfully hold fire until he is close enough to get shot in the face by the Apache gun.

BV (am I allowed to use the roll eyes emoji or has that been done too much already?!)

[West Coast]

Know nothing of the British Apaches, are they equipped to carry the AIM -9?

[heights good]

For those not in the know, it is not shooting fish in a barrel when its FJ vs RW, especially if the heli crew are trained. Without divulging tactics on a public forum, the slow mover can actually have a big advantage over a FJ.

[Bob Viking]

Pontius.

A fascinating read. May I highlight a couple of points?

The concluding phase of that trial took place in 1979. Things may have moved on slightly since then.

Sorry to be facetious.

BV

[heights good]

BV may care to read this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

OTOH I also found this:

Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.

The way Black Hawk crews fly (in my experience) this is not in the least surprising.

[Bob Viking]

Heights good.

Agreed that we won't discuss tactics. When you say advantage for the helos I assume you mean they are able to survive quite regularly. I also assume you're not suggesting they score many kills?!

BV

[Bob Viking]

I'm enjoying this thread by the way. In our own heads, we're all correct.

Bed time for me now though.

BV

[The B Word]

A cheeky bit of strafe against a helo was always fun to practice. However, these days ASRAAM with helmet cuing would be the weapon of choice for a FJ, no need to worry about losing IR due to rotor downwash with that bad boy!

Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:

6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill

11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.

14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.

15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.

In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.

On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.

[heights good]

Heights good.

Agreed that we won't discuss tactics. When you say advantage for the helos I assume you mean they are able to survive quite regularly. I also assume you're not suggesting they score many kills?!

BV

Survival, however even if a GPMG/M134 is very unlikely to shoot down a jet, tracer whizzing past will probably focus the mind of a FJ pilot 😀

[charliegolf]

Survival, however even if a GPMG/M134 is very unlikely to shoot down a jet, tracer whizzing past will probably focus the mind of a FJ pilot 😀

Frankly, with a GPMG, a crewman is unlikely to hit the sky!

CG

Kudos to those who may have used them (carried them) in anger, as opposed to us CW fliers who fired 'em annually!

[Trim Stab]

What is the max positive g of the Puma in a steep turn? And is it symmetric or does it have a weaker turn direction?

FJ v helo is always going to be in horizontal plane, so turn radius and roll rate are the deciders. Typhoon will win easily on roll rate, but I would guess Puma has a smaller minimum turn radius?

[Lonewolf_50]

Wow, some of you have some interesting ideas. The B Word spells out some interesting data points on how, not in an exercise, things have gone.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

FJ v helo is always going to be in horizontal plane, so turn radius and roll rate are the deciders.

????

The helo might be largely restricted to the horizontal plane, but the FJ certainly isn't.

[Davef68]

There was a proposal to fit Starstreak pods to the Apache (even went as far as test firings Starstreak missile being fired from an Apache attack helicopter. - Image - Army Technology (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/starstreak/starstreak4.html)).

[minigundiplomat]

B Word,


Any examples that don't include elite Iraqi/Iranian/Italian aircraft?


CG,


I reckon an M134D would put enough lead in enough sky to make the puffer jet pilot drop his lipstick.

[Evalu8ter]

We've been round this particular "circle of joy" many times.....including this one where it rapidly descended from a good debate into into a FJ v RW "I'm better than you" load of nonsense.......

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/559668-jets-v-heli-s.html

In sum, a well equipped helo (RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS etc) with good SA, excellent crew co-operation and trained in A-A tactics is a difficult target to find, track and kill (both radar and visually) - but this is terrain and weather dependant. A completely unaware, ill-equipped and non-trained helo is still hard to find visually if down at low level but may present a very simple BVR/IR Mx opportunity. For the Helo to "win" it often merely has to survive. Shooting down the FJ is the last thing on your mind, scaring it off, keeping out of its weapon arcs (increasingly hard with HMDCS and off-boresight Mx) until help arrives or running it out of fuel are normally the best options. Re the AH gun, having looked at gun tape of it trying to track me, I'd suggest it's optimised for ground target crossing rates; maybe, at best, a slashing guns shot A-A. The AH can carry Stingers but, with all things, it compromises weight and pylon space - many AH users now put additional podded DAS sensors on the ends of the wings.

[Dominator2]

Evalu8ter,

Very good summary. From a fast jet point of view a well flown helo was always a very challenging target. Having done a considerable amount including on NVGs it was the advent of HMS and certain a-a missiles that have made the fighter pilots task much easier. The latest heat seekers can be used as a FLIR and can be used to get the pilots eyes on, even night lights out. Obviously RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS become essential against a fighter that is so equipped.

I have never seen any study as to the use of an LGB to take out a helo? I would imagine a 500 or 1000lb going bang close by would not be too good?

[Davef68]

I have never seen any study as to the use of an LGB to take out a helo? I would imagine a 500 or 1000lb going bang close by would not be too good?

USAF F-15E on Mil-24, GW1

F-15E scored dropped a bomb on an Iraqi helicopter - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/f-15e-scored-dropped-a-bomb-on-an-iraqi-helicopter-2016-5?IR=T)

[Pontius Navigator]

Evalu8tor, and of course there is a major draw back for a well camouflaged low flying helo over plain desert in bright sunlight - shadow.

[[email protected]]

BV - I think the CRV7s might prove a useful deterrent to any FJ wishing to make a casual strafe of an Apache.

The Apache radar is a significant advantage over the Mk1 eyeball available to most helicopter crews.

[Bob Viking]

CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?

I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.

BV

[Evalu8ter]

D2 - I had a pair of F15E use 4x LGB on me over the North Sea once; I'd trashed every BVR/Heater shot (I was, for once, carrying live chaff/flare as well) and, well, being F15E guys using Fighting Edge they were not coming down to play with guns....The lack of RW speed makes it very hard to escape the frag envelope - analogous to "Bomb in the Face" supposedly considered by strike aircraft being chased down at low level...Re FPA Mx, I'd agree with you having done trials with/against ASRAAM. We found a few things out about it (not for these means) but, along with off-boresight HMDCS targeted weapons and AESA radars, it moves the game on so the RW community need to change equipment and tactics - but only, of course, if we fight a near-peer and the OCA/DCA guys have let "leakers" through....

PN - not just shadow but also use of camouflage (I would deliberately try to find every Oil Seed Rape field and join them up to see if my Students was paying attention...), blowing sand (it shows up better than the cab) and spray/wake over water. Also don't forget sun glint if manoeuvring.

Crab - CRV7 A-A would be a low PK shot unless the FJ was not manoeuvring. That said, the Iranian's claimed a MiG shot down by a Cobra TOW (!) and the Iraqi's claimed an F4 with a Sagger (both unlikely in my view...). The Zuni did score a couple of A-A kills in VN. The AH also has an RFI / RWR combo if it didn't want to use the FCR. The frequency of the FCR is also out of range for many FJ RWRs.....maybe a RF/Laser Hellfire/Brimstone against a slow moving unaware CAS aircraft is a possibility....

[[email protected]]

I didn't say it would be accurate but a faceful of CRV 7s plus 30 mm cannon would certainly deter all but the most eager FJ looking for an easy target.

Yes it would be a head on shot but that's what we used to do against the Lightnings since their cannon were mounted about 2 degrees nose up and it forced them to shove the nose down to get a solution.

However, as previously mentioned, providing you can see/detect the helo in the first place then missiles from a longer range are much easier for the kill.

[Bob Viking]

Crab.

As a FJ driver I'm not saying I would relish the thought of a faceful of rockets and bullets but think about practicality. CRV7 is a boresight weapon. The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe. Can you see where I'm going with this?

BV

[[email protected]]

Yes, the FJ comes in steep and the helo pulls up to face it, lets go with the rockets and cannon and dives for the weeds again.

I am not talking about a helo in a hover but one which is manoeuvring to avoid being shot down.

[Evalu8ter]

BV,
"The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe" - which is exactly why RW tactics are what they are, to make that shot as difficult and uncomfortable as possible for the FJ - before the helo starts shooting back as well. Did you have a chance at doing any affil on the FL?

The Tally is the key; get the Tally early (and maintain it!) and it's actually very simple to defeat the FJ (1v1 at least) in visual (i.e. strafe) range. Since WW1 pilot ability/training, first tally and starting position (speed/height/energy) are often the decisive factors.

[JAV_SA]

An almost forgotten war for most, but six helicopters downed over two days. This by SAAF Impala's (home built Aermachchi MB's) during the conflict in Angola.

From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aermacchi_MB-326 "Impala Mk IIs were also opportunistically used as interceptors. In several encounters in 1985 with Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters they shot down a total of six. This happened during a crucial phase of the ground war, when Angolan and Cuban troops were checked in an offensive against UNITA bases. This ended in disaster for the Angolan/Cuban alliance when their supplies were cut off by UNITA and the SAAF and front line troops ran out of ammunition. Helicopters were being used to supply the besieged troops and the SAAF cut off this link. Two Mi-24s were shot down in the first encounter while escorting Mi-17s. The MiG-21s that escorted them flew too high to react in time. Two days later the Impala Mk IIs struck again, downing two Mi-24s and two Mi-17s."

[BEagle]

In F-4 days, we were advised not bother trying to play with helicopters. "Just go supersonic low over the top of them, that'll swat the buggers down" was the QWI advice...:hmm:

[AndySmith]

A cheeky bit of strafe against a helo was always fun to practice. However, these days ASRAAM with helmet cuing would be the weapon of choice for a FJ, no need to worry about losing IR due to rotor downwash with that bad boy!

Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:

6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill

11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.

14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.

15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.

In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.

On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.

I think this list misses out Dave Morgan's destruction of an Argentine Puma in the Falklands, which crashed after a high speed pass and desperate manoeuvring, and then knocking down with a burst of cannon fire of the A109 gunship which was trying to escape. I think a further Puma was destroyed on the ground. Perhaps he could come and explain the rat and terrier helicopter hunting technique.....

[Bob Viking]

Evalu8er.

I never fought a helicopter but I have fired CRV7. Hence my scepticism.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

As BEagle said, just blast through. Played with an F4, similar radar freak to a Firebar. Got him tied up in knots, low speed high G. Eventually he got fed up, bugged out, 20 miles and back in Warp 6, never saw him.

[Evalu8ter]

BV,
Seen CRV-7, fired 2.75" and hence why I agree with your scepticism.

Eval

[Evalu8ter]

Beags,
Your QWI was talking utter boll*cks....

[[email protected]]

Beags,
Your QWI was talking utter boll*cks....But it was what was taught to the FJ fraternity in those days.

[sandiego89]

The way Black Hawk crews fly (in my experience) this is not in the least surprising.


Wow, are you really sure you want to use a tragic friendly fire incident where the AWACS crew sat on their asses negligently, where the F-15 drivers with their fangs out broke procedures, misidentified the Black Hawks and engaged improperly and unleashed an AMRAAM and AIM-9 on the un suspecting and un-maneuvering helo's (the second tried to avoid after the other helo was blasted out of the sky) as an opportunity to degenerate those lost and all other Black Hawk pilots (in your experience?). The poor souls on the Black Hawks didn't stand a chance- unlike the "FJ vs helo dogfight" most are addressing here.

[Mogwi]

Hmm. 450ish knot low (10') pass over the rotor with 5g on did the trick. He thought that the tail rotor had failed and ended up in a ball on the side of the hill over which he was knapp-of-the-earthing. Number 2 was A109A fitted with guns and rockets. He tried to run for the hills and took some 30mm HE in the fuel tank. I agree that if he had started squirting back at me I would have been more circumspect. Would never have been able to go into a bar ever again if he had got me! Number 3 was landed-on and de-planing rapidly when he took my last 30mm round in the tail pylon.

The BIG mistake these guys made was to fly over an inlet at V low level and I spotted the snail-trail from 8000'. Amazingly, no one died!

[Evalu8ter]

Mogwi,
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.

[Dominator2]

But it was what was taught to the FJ fraternity in those days.

Yes, [email protected] it was taught by some F4 QWIs who knew no better.

Over the past 25 years we have improved somewhat and have thought more about the challenge. After the Cold War each conflict has posed it's own problems. Being able to detect, police, shadow or engage a modern helo should be something that every combat ready fighter pilot is capable of achieving.

Unfortunately, due to dilution and risk adversion some may find the challenge too much. The is no doubt that 2v2 fighter/helo affil low level overland lights out is high tariff but very satisfying when done well.

[Mogwi]

Mogwi,
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.

To be fair, I attacked from his 12 o'clock, at his level (+ 10') for the last 3 miles because I was initially going for a visident. I cannot believe he didn't notice a smoking jumping bean growing in the windscreen! Number 2 certainly knew we were there because he saw the leader hit the ground in front of him - and he had plenty of performance available for manoeuvre.

But I concur with your final point. I always taught that it doesn't matter how good you are, the newest sprog will smoke you if you don't see him coming. That is why lookout and crew coordination is critical for a helo in a hostile environment.

Mog

[Sloppy Link]

CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?

I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.

BV
Errrm....CRV-7 GPF will deliver 80 tungsten darts 6" long in a 5mil dispersion. The firing solution would be tricky but it would certainly help to convince the FJ to move along.

[Bob Viking]

As much as I'm enjoying all the CRV7 related musings I would very much like it if an Apache pilot, who has fired CRV7 and performed fighter affil' could give their opinion.

If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.

Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.

BV

[msbbarratt]

BV may care to read this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

OTOH I also found this:

Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.

I don't suppose the UH60s were being flown evasively, which would make them sitting ducks...

[The Claw]

https://s2.postimg.org/wtw19qwi1/DSC06354_copy.jpg

[Sloppy Link]

As much as I'm enjoying all the CRV7 related musings I would very much like it if an Apache pilot, who has fired CRV7 and performed fighter affil' could give their opinion.

If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.

Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.

BV

That'll be me then (or was).
As a defensive measure, GPF would be my tactic, If I hit him - bonus, if not, it would still make him think twice. As I said, getting the solution would be tricky. Gun is an option but is fitted with the intention of firing down or at least level, not firing up, again, the solution would be tricky. The point is, as soon as an Apache is pointing at you, you are under threat. He can see behind him so knows if you are sneaking in for a rear shot, can see what your flight path is and manoeuvre accordingly. Meanwhile, laser slaved to target that is auto-locked on, a face full of Class IV would provide a further distraction. Look for an easier target.

Q. Why do you want to know how to take out an Apache? Last time I checked, we were allies (only to a degree in some cases) with all that types current operators. It may surprise you to learn that we don't practice how to take out Typhoon, despite inter-service rivalry, we are all on the same side.

[heights good]

CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?

I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.

BV

I am trying to be mindful of giving away tactics on a public forum so my answer is slightly vague.

Without wishing to be inflammatory, dismissive or rude but your answer above shows that you have never conducted FJ vs RW engagements or at the very least have forgotten how trained RW crews conduct themselves.

I can assure you from personal experience of engagements with Typhoon, Hawk, Tornado F3 & GR4, Harrier, Jaguar, F-15 and other RW that every type DOES fight how they would for real or are mirroring how an adversary would fight. If this was not the case then it would just be having fun and not training.

Prior to every evasion sortie a comprehensive brief with all crews involved is conducted thats lays out the tactics being employed. This is a legal requirement.

I remember a fight about 6 or 7 yrs ago with a Typhoon from the OEU with a QWI flying it, arguably the best possible A-A pilot in the RAF by virtue of his quals and position. We had to squawk, fly high, straight and level, A-A Tacan and give our location for us just to be seen.

Once in the merge we lived to fight another day in every fight, albeit by working bloody hard as a crew and using highly slick CRM/chat. 2 v 1 the odds were obviously not as great, but not a foregone conclusion by any stretch.

With a trained crew, good CRM, DAS and a bit of luck, RW have a high chance of not dying. However, the chances of a crewman getting an A-A kill are possible but not probable...

[MACH2NUMBER]

Did this with Tornado F3 v Puma and found it quite difficult to see the heli. However, once seen, the Puma tended to go to ground. If the spot was marked I suspect a hundred rounds of 27mm close to the spot might have fixed the issue.

[heights good]

Interesting read produced by 'Foo' Kennard, whom I can vouch from personal experience is a very knowledgeable and competent QHTI with 10 yrs experience of FJ vs RW.

http://www.heliopsmag.com/heliops-frontline/helos-vs-jets

The short version - you have to invest in realistic and difficult training, effective DAS and let crews practice, often.

[BEagle]

Thanks for the link!

Paul was one of the best students on the UAS during my QFI time there - and that article is truly excellent.

[PlasticCabDriver]

And is also one of the most fun things you can do in a helicopter with your clothes on.

[Bob Viking]

heights good.

If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.

Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.

One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.

You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.

Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.

Anyway, must get to work.

BV

[Sloppy Link]

heights good.

If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.

Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.

One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.

You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.

Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.

Anyway, must get to work.

BV

Bob, To be clear, CRV-7 is merely the rocket motor that delivers a variety of payloads, your comments lead me to believe that you are referring to HEISAP that requires a direct hit for an effect. The payload I refer to is General Purpose Flechette. In simple terms, it fires from the aircraft to a safe point to prevent aircraft self damage and then dispenses 80 6" tungsten darts at a 5mil spread or at 1,000m (from point of dispertion), it covers 5m, 2,000m it covers 10m and so on - a little like shining a torch at a wall, the further you are from the wall, the larger the size of the beam appears on the wall. That is one rocket, although unusual in the extreme, it could be carrying 76 of the blighters but certainly not unusual to carry more than two. Fired at intervals, that would be a lot of bits of metal in the sky at the same time as the FJ that are advertised as capable of penetrating 1.5" of RHA.

You asked for AH input and have dismissed it.

I too have work to do.

[Bob Viking]

Sloppy.

You are absolutely right and I apologise. It was not an acronym I was familiar with.

BV

[heights good]

heights good.

If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.

Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.

One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.

You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.

Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.

Anyway, must get to work.

BV

Sorry BV, it was a long day and way past my bedtime so I never fully read the comments of others. Apologies if I came across as belligerent, not my intention at all.

Just another point in a 2 v 1 fight, from personal experience 2 x FJ doesnt = 2 x Tally especially in a visual fight at low level with hilly terrain which makes a BVR engagement problematic. I remember a 2v2 over the sea, ideal conditions for a BVR fight, it was not the outcome that most would expect.

[heights good]

Another point that is worth emphasising, a win for a FJ is generally a kill. For RW, or for that matter ME, just surviving the engagement is a win. This means the conduct of the engagement, especially the merge is different for each aircraft type.

[rogcal]

As the OP I'm very pleased with the level of interest and lively discussion my post has generated. I've learnt a lot more thank you.

Referring back to my previous post on the subject of FJ intercepts of helos (Sept 2011), I was fortunate enough to be contacted by the Captain of the Merlin that was talking part in that exercise and he confirmed what I had assumed which was neither of the Typhoons had obtained target acquisition.

Either way, I am thankful that I live in an area where I'm privileged to observe such exercises on my doorstep and as a taxpayer I would like to thank the MOD and all the personnel involved for providing me with some spectacular visual entertainment.

May Isuggest to anyone reading this who has the influence to initiate further exercises of this nature, please organise many more and let me know when, so that I can have my deckchair and a cold beer set up outside on my strip, ready and waiting. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

I was involved in various pre-briefed "fighter affil" exercises, as it was known back in my RAF Puma time, mainly with Hawk and Harrier (which dates me, I know...). Plus the many " bounces" we used to experience in Germany.

We often had to "con" the jet aircraft pilot onto us, because without our help visual acquisition overland was tfd, despite the area being part of the brief. It wasn't difficult to evade. One Harrier pilot said in the debrief that unless he had a lot of fuel to spare and nothing better to do, which was unlikely, he probably wouldn't bother to mix it for long with a rotary winged, low flying target of opportunity that began to evade properly. He also said that if the helicopter fired back, he would definitely give it a very wide berth.

Trying to compare rates of turn and "sustained G" to obtain a good firing position between FJ and RW are almost irrelevant especially to a modern armed helicopter. I can also confirm that the Puma is very capable of manoeuvring in the vertical sense as well as the horizontal. I was more worried about slower armed aircraft such as the Pucara, Frogfoot etc. Not forgetting the Soviet helicopters designed with the aim of shooting down other helicopters.

[sandiego89]

Great discussion folks.


I always found the Huey shoot down of the An-2 interesting, and yes I realize an An-2 is not a FJ ;)


https://cherrieswriter.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/att00072.jpg


https://cherrieswriter.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/att00072.jpg

[Sloppy Link]

Sloppy.

You are absolutely right and I apologise. It was not an acronym I was familiar with.

BV

Bob, accepted with respect.
SL

[typerated]

The two German Alpha Jet wings were tasked against helicopters. Fun blokes they were too.
Probably the Hinds and Hips would have been easier targets. Less agile. Certainly in big formations if they tried an air assault.