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View Full Version : Polar Cargo B748 at Tokyo 15 Jul, overran runway on takeoff


CCA
11th Aug 2017, 11:13
A Polar Air Cargo Boeing 747-8F, registration N852GT performing freight flight PO-213 from Tokyo Narita (Japan) to Shanghai Pudong (China), departed Narita's runway 16L (length 2500 meters/8200 feet), however, the main gear did not become airborne until about 85 meters/280 feet past the runway end already on soft ground. The aircraft climbed out to safety and continued to Shanghai without further incident.


Fatigue? 16R data entered?


Incident: Polar Cargo B748 at Tokyo on Jul 15th 2017, overran runway on takeoff (http://avherald.com/h?article=4accc5bc&opt=0)

Hotel Tango
11th Aug 2017, 11:54
I guess they must have been pretty close to the farm (about 100m from the end)!

JW411
11th Aug 2017, 16:39
Is that the one they were trying to buy?

Hotel Tango
11th Aug 2017, 17:14
One of them. There are others I believe. You can see them on google earth.

westhawk
12th Aug 2017, 05:30
Agreed, I guess some youngsters may not know the expression!Quite likely, so I'll lay it out for them as I understand it. In WW2, many service pilots were from rural areas. The family farm was where they grew up. A great many family farms were mortgaged and it was difficult work to pay off those mortgages on what could be made during The Great Depression. If a serviceman was killed in battle, their family would receive a significant payout from what we call today their Serviceman's Group Life Insurance policy. A death benefit that would be enough in most cases to pay off the mortgage on the family farm. "Yeah, ol' Shakey and his whole crew bought the farm yesterday. Two ships reported that they augured in near Heidelberg after gettin' hit by a 109 on the bomb run. No 'chutes seen."

Metro man
12th Aug 2017, 09:29
Another MK Airlines Halifax avoided due to no obstructions in the departure path. Possible wrong ZFW used ?

Hotel Tango
12th Aug 2017, 09:39
Is that the one they were trying to buy?

This youngster (67) never heard that expression and since the Narita authorities HAVE been trying to buy that farm for years, the pun went right over my head! ;)

RandomPerson8008
12th Aug 2017, 10:19
Another MK Airlines Halifax avoided due to no obstructions in the departure path. Possible wrong ZFW used ?

Firstly, the quote here is misleading (due to translation issues perhaps)? The aircraft lifted off 85m from the runway end, still on the paved surface (not beyond it, in the grass as the original quote seems to indicate). Yes that is still ~200m beyond where it should've lifted off, but the tires were not dragged through the grass. If we can wait a few weeks I'm sure information about the cause will be made available.

DingerX
12th Aug 2017, 12:51
In any case, the farms are further down. If you don't unstick from 16L, you'll end up in the Toho Shrine (http://imgur.com/gallery/kPojo). The farms are a little further down.

A320FOX
12th Aug 2017, 13:48
With the first comments I thought that if they dragged the tires on the grass they should have destroyed some of the approach lights. Lucky this was not the case.

Metro man
12th Aug 2017, 14:00
Was that lift off at the correct speed and rotation rate, just a bit further down the runway than it should have been or was it dragged into the air close to VMU when they realised they were running out of pavement ?

underfire
12th Aug 2017, 16:59
Firstly, the quote here is misleading (due to translation issues perhaps)? The aircraft lifted off 85m from the runway end, still on the paved surface (not beyond it, in the grass as the original quote seems to indicate)

that is what I have heard as well. translation issues, but in reality, on DEP all engine you dont have to be over the runway end by very much. A bit harrowing to watch...especially a 748

that PA 748 has had a tough time..

http://www.jacdec.de/WP/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/[email protected]_title.png

Havingwings4ever
13th Aug 2017, 20:25
Anyone knows if Polar uses derate AND flex combined? We use it on the b744, kinda confusing at first and initially feels like looking 4 trouble. Still amazing to see how much thrust is added when switching from TO thrust to CLB(using derate and flex for TO)

MarkerInbound
14th Aug 2017, 13:50
Yes, they do. I wouldn't call it confusing as much as it is strange to reduce TO power to less than climb. On a different airframe with a F/E crunching out the numbers we never reduced takeoff EPR below climb.

fatbus
14th Aug 2017, 14:23
Where is that near crash picture from?

Airbubba
14th Aug 2017, 14:37
This incident:

2016-04-15 Polar Air Cargo 747-800F pod strike at LAX JACDEC (http://www.jacdec.de/2016/04/17/2016-04-15-polar-air-cargo-747-800f-podstrike-at-lax/)

kungfu panda
14th Aug 2017, 19:25
Atlas and Polar need to get their act together on safety. I'm not well informed and I can think of at least 5 serious events off the top of my head which they've had in the last 12 years. If they were African they'd be banned from flight into Europe or the U.S.

arw.ryder
15th Aug 2017, 00:03
Anyone knows if Polar uses derate AND flex combined? We use it on the b744, kinda confusing at first and initially feels like looking 4 trouble. Still amazing to see how much thrust is added when switching from TO thrust to CLB(using derate and flex for TO)

It seems unwise and unnecessary to set takeoff power to less than climb. How do pilots justify this? Is it a case of blindly following formulas without putting thought in to what you're doing?

JammedStab
15th Aug 2017, 04:18
I'll put some thought to it. I think that you are not a pilot. The majority of airliner flights in history in history has set a climb power which is less thrust than takeoff power. In fact it is pretty much mandatory as takeoff power is limited to 5 minutes.

Granted, with derates it can be set up with climb thrust being an increase in thrust.

AtoBsafely
15th Aug 2017, 04:45
arw,

You need to get out more! My personal definition of a category REAL Transport Aircraft is that it can carry its own weight in fuel and payload. e.g. B747

B748 Basic Wt about 418,000 lb; MTOW 985,000 lb
Rated TO Thrust 4 x 67,400 lb = 269,600 lb
D-TO2 (-20%), asm 57 deg (-25%) = 40,440 lb x 4 = 161,760 lb
At light weight, the thrust reduction is both wise and sensible.
I don't have a figure for CLB 2 thrust, but I think its around 45,000 lb.

parabellum
15th Aug 2017, 05:34
Obviously some different theories abound, having flown the B747-400, 757-200 and 767-300ER, different companies, the rule was always the same, never reduce TO power below CLB power. I was comfortable with that! :)

White Knight
15th Aug 2017, 05:41
It seems unwise and unnecessary to set takeoff power to less than climb. How do pilots justify this? Is it a case of blindly following formulas without putting thought in to what you're doing?

I don't fly Boeings but I can tell you that a full flex take off with the 380-800 gives about 62% Thrust and at 'Thrust Reduction' it will actually increase to a value based on the 'Derate Climb' selected in the FMS (EA engines). So we could easily get a 15 to 20% thrust increase for the climb.

As long as all performance requirements are met then it works for me:ok:

RandomPerson8008
15th Aug 2017, 06:38
How about we wait for facts before condemning crews and entire airlines. Oh wait, I forgot for a second that this was pprune.

kungfu panda
15th Aug 2017, 08:10
I would accept that under almost all other circumstances but when an Airline has as much history of occurences as Atlas/Polar the right to innocent before proved guilty is diminished. The management of this company clearly does not address the root causes of the safety issues they have. I am surprised that the Chinese with the Aviation standards they set allow this Airline into Shanghai.

Enos
16th Aug 2017, 05:21
Obviously some different theories abound, having flown the B747-400, 757-200 and 767-300ER, different companies, the rule was always the same, never reduce TO power below CLB power. I was comfortable with that! :)

It can be down to what the operator pays Boeing for the derate 777-300ER can be 40% giving an assumed temperature of around 76deg, (aircraft virtually empty) but if you've got full thrust climb in the climb page at thrust reduction the thrust levers will go forward and give more thrust, weird to see. (Old SOP to always have full climb, days of expensive fuel)

The 777-200 F and LR with a max derate of 25% empty gives excessive exceleration (trend vector of 80kts) and higher than normal pitch attitudes after TO, great to get the power off at 1000ft if you don't fly these aircraft empty regularly.

Never saw it on the 75/76 never had the pleasure of the 747.

Cheers Enos

act700
18th Aug 2017, 15:06
I would accept that under almost all other circumstances but when an Airline has as much history of occurences as Atlas/Polar the right to innocent before proved guilty is diminished. The management of this company clearly does not address the root causes of the safety issues they have. I am surprised that the Chinese with the Aviation standards they set allow this Airline into Shanghai.

HAHAHAHAHA....good one panda...I'm surprised with the high standards the Chinese themselves operate to, they're allowed out of China!!!