Most difficult formation aerobatic manoeuvre?

[Trim Stab]

I was watching the PdF the other day and they did an individual slow-roll in formation - i.e. all aircraft slow rolling about their own axis, but the formation as a whole staying straight and level. I would guess that much more difficult than a formation roll as visual references would be constantly changing.

But I am no expert, so what would be considered the most difficult formation aerobatic manoeuvre?

[Flap62]

I don't think they roll in formation particularly slowly, at least not in the traditional slow roll sense. I doubt that they use any rudder and would guess (and it is just that) that it is only aileron input making it much easier as there is much less co-ordination and therefore so much less to go wrong.

[Herod]

How's about a 22 aircraft loop? Black Arrows (and others) Farnborough 1958

[unmanned_droid]

I would have thought a barrel roll in formation would be difficult for those towards the outside of the formation.

[ACW418]

Any from my point of view - absolutely rubbish at formation in general.

ACW

[ORAC]

43 Sqn found the St Andrew's Cross a bit of a handful. (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=82601) Mainly because it was an illegal formation because it left the crew in the middle nowhere to go - as they found out......

[Schnowzer]

My experience in larger fast jets was any rolling maneuver 2 or more out because of the distance you had to move to stay on the wing line. It generally went well quite until the horizon appeared upside down then I was a goner. 🙃

[Treble one]

I always admire the Red's 'slalom' manoeuvre as it just shows (to my albeit untrained eye) their trust in each other and their skill as pilots.

[cyclic35]

Any from my point of view - absolutely rubbish at formation in general.

ACW

Rolling "Line Abreast" was never a great favourite. :uhoh:

[unmanned_droid]

I'm sorry for the crappiness of my tale but....

As a staff cadet with an AEF, I was allowed to fly with a UAS CFI who was no.2 to the UAS CO on a planned formation flypast.

I expected to be told to shut up and sit still (happy to do so) but once in the air I was asked what I had got up to in the 'dog etc and was then asked if I had flown formation before. I had not. This was my one and only formation flight and it was a disaster from my seat. I have never been so humbled as when my pilot took the stick back and suddenly everything went from bucking bronco to completely calm. The aircraft started obeying his orders and everything.

Maybe I didn't have the skills after all, and the cadets was a cheap way for the RAF to find out!

Anyway, I now have a small insight in to what I am watching display teams do, and an ever greater level of respect!

[Arfur Dent]

Didn't the Reds do a "Leaders Benefit" roll where 2&3 were in normal echelon on the Leader and all the rest were line abreast on them? That would be v tricky for everyone (except 2&3). Looked nice though……

[Onceapilot]

This was my one and only formation flight and it was a disaster from my seat. I have never been so humbled as when my pilot took the stick back and suddenly everything went from bucking bronco to completely calm. The aircraft started obeying his orders and everything.

Maybe I didn't have the skills after all, and the cadets was a cheap way for the RAF to find out!



Don't be so hard on yourself! It is a bit of a pity that you didn't have more opportunity for instruction. Everyone overcontrols on first attempts at formation flying. One of my teaching points was to say how we all drive in formation on motorways! The rest is practice. Cheers

OAP

[Trim Stab]

I don't think they roll in formation particularly slowly, at least not in the traditional slow roll sense. I doubt that they use any rudder and would guess (and it is just that) that it is only aileron input making it much easier as there is much less co-ordination and therefore so much less to go wrong.

They looked fairly slow for an aileron roll, but admittedly a fast slow roll. Nevertheless they were all perfectly straight and definitely quite impressive. I don't recall ever seeing the Reds do the same manoeuvre - or do they?

[Basil]

. . . .
Maybe I didn't have the skills after all, and the cadets was a cheap way for the RAF to find out!

Anyway, I now have a small insight in to what I am watching display teams do, and an ever greater level of respect!
Concur with onceapilot. Me flying: All over the place - Instructor flying: On rails.

After a few years - Me: Just about OK ;)

[Rosevidney1]

I never liked formation flying in helicopters. Luckily I seldom had to but I used to get 'helpful' comments about my distance keeping!

[H Peacock]

ORAC, I believe the 'problem' with 43 Sqn's attempt at the St Andrew's Cross was all in the planning stage! Weren't the No2 (abeam the Ldr) and the No3 (middle man) both taking references solely off the same side of the leader with no plan of how they themselves would stay apart? Being on the same side as the Ldr the inevitable happened!

Had they stepped down the No3 the risk of collision would have been considerably reduced.

[ORAC]

Not sure, but IIRC the authoriser, Sqn Cdr and OC Ops were all replaced.

[bonajet]

The hardest manœuvre for me was the 2 out line abreast barrel roll. This was made harder by the engine response being slower than older jets and meant that position had to be maintained by use of the airbrake.
As for rolling in formation, the Red Arrows did a seven echelon twinkle roll in the Gnat but they did open the formation out a bit to do it.

[unmanned_droid]

Concur with onceapilot. Me flying: All over the place - Instructor flying: On rails.

After a few years - Me: Just about OK ;)

Thanks guys, I'm ok with it really - it's clear we were at opposite ends of the spectrum, as is usually the case, I expect! I was mildly better at keeping a squirrel kind of in one place!

He did say that there were ground lessons and excercises leading up to studes doing formation, and, whilst my hours count was relatively high (against the studes), we did not follow a training syllabus as such and therefore my learning had been somewhat more freeform in nature! So, there are some excuses, but it is still a bit deflating to think about! I learnt a lot about flying on that AEF!

[Schnowzer]

ORAC, I believe the 'problem' with 43 Sqn's attempt at the St Andrew's Cross was all in the planning stage! Weren't the No2 (abeam the Ldr) and the No3 (middle man) both taking references solely off the same side of the leader with no plan of how they themselves would stay apart?

As I recall it was all down to HH's American flying gloves!😉

[The Oberon]

A bit of thread drift.

Being a local I often see the RAFAT practising at Scampton. I understand that a constant wind is going to effect everyone in the same way but what about gusting, I have seen them up at 30 Kts mean but gusting 45. Does this effect individual members more than others?

[just another jocky]

Formating with different aircraft types has its own issues as they each react differently due to their size/shape/aerodynamics as well as to their flying control dynamics.


Sitting behind an AAR tanker whilst sat in a Tonka when there's turbulence often meant the tanker and the basket bouncing around but the Tonka sat there, dead still with its gust alleviation doing its job.


Did a season formating on a Canberra in a Hunter and that had its own issues with different acceleration and deceleration rates. Didn't try any exotic manoeuvres that early in our careers though.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Getting into close formation in a helicopter:

When the crewman says "that's close enough" - 2 rotor spans
When the crewman says "that's REALLY close enough" - 1.5 rotor spans
When the crewman's getting the fire axe out - 1 rotor span!

Worked every time! :)

[ORAC]

Formating with different aircraft types has its own issues as they each react differently due to their size/shape/aerodynamics as well as to their flying control dynamics. Which is what took down the XB-70. F-104 got in too close and the aerodynamics took it up and over taking off the tail fins.

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3906/310023662.1c08/0_446a8f_fd865639_XL

https://milaviate.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/xb70601.jpg