German Tiger down in Mali

[Flying Bull]

A german Tiger crashed and burned in Mali, both pilots dead :-(
Eilmeldung: Zwei deutsche Soldaten in Mali ums Leben gekommen | tagesschau.de (http://www.tagesschau.de/eilmeldung/eilmeldung-2873.html)
Assumed technical defect - no further details, only eye witnesses (second helicopter in the area)

RIP

[Praet]

According to Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-in-mali-zwei-tote-soldaten-bei-hubschrauberabsturz-a-1159883.html), the crew of a second Tiger following the crashed helicopter reported that they suddenly went into a steep dive and hit the ground at high speed, without any kind of radio communication or distress call. The crash occured after 70 kilometers of flight while en route to a mission area where fighting on the ground was reported about 150 kilometers from the base, which is why enemy action currently is considered unlikely.

[skadi]

According to the latest news, the Tiger was in cruise flight ( 135kts 1800ft Gnd) when the nose dropped suddenly and the helicopter crashed 10 seconds later. During the dive the mainrotorblades detached. The crash was not survivable.

skadi

[atakacs]

Mechanical failure? Suicidal pilot (not a first I'm afraid)? Apparently no hostile fire reported.

[[email protected]]

Has the Tiger got a movable horizontal stabiliser like the Apache?

A runaway on that would give sudden undemanded pitch down.

[SuperF]

surely the horizontal stab could be overcome from flight controls? i.e. it wouldn't create an uncontrollable dive!!!

[skadi]

Has the Tiger got a movable horizontal stabiliser like the Apache?

A runaway on that would give sudden undemanded pitch down.


No, it's fixed.

skadi

[[email protected]]

surely the horizontal stab could be overcome from flight controls? i.e. it wouldn't create an uncontrollable dive!!!it happened in the Blackhawk ISTR.

Thanks Skadi - maybe an AFCS or Hyd malfunction.

[212man]

No, it's fixed.

skadi

Maybe it failed - it would not be the first time on an AH/EC/AS/SA product.

[OldblokeTH53]

German helicopter lost rotors before Mali crash - report | World | Reuters (http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKBN1AO2JH?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAFRICAWorldNews+%28News+%2F+A FRICA+%2F+World+News%29&&rpc=401)

BERLIN (Reuters) - A German military helicopter that crashed while flying a peacekeeping mission in Mali began to break up while in flight, losing its rotor, according to a defence ministry report seen by Reuters.

Two crew members were killed when one of Germany's four Tiger helicopters crashed in the West African nation's desert north last month. At the time, German officials said there were no signs it was downed by an attack.

An in-air break-up could point to maintenance or manufacturing issues having contributed to the crash, although the report said it was too early to speculate about the causes of the crash.

"According to information available so far, once the vehicle had started to descend, parts of the aircraft broke off, including the main rotor blades," the ministry report said, adding that the flight had proceeded normally until then.

The deployment of the Tiger helicopters to Mali earlier this year was controversial since the aircraft, made by Airbus, required extra maintenance given the high heat and other environmental conditions in the desert country but officials said at the time the four vehicles had been performing normally.

The report said the aircraft had been flying at 250 kilometres (155 miles) per hour at a height of 550 metres (1,800 feet) when it "suddenly sank its nose and entered a sharp dive." The helicopter crashed 10 seconds later and burst into flame.

Germany agreed to deploy the four Tiger and four NH-90 transport helicopters to Mali earlier this year after the Dutch military said it could not continue the work.

But Germany's increased support was heavily debated in parliament, and required a waiver from the German military allowing the helicopters to operate in higher temperatures.

German armed forces operate a fleet of 27 of the helicopters.

Reporting by Sabine Siebold; Writing by Thomas Escritt; Editing by Sandra Maler

[albatross]

Does the Tiger transmission / rotor system have any commonality with the EC225?

[Flying Bull]

Does the Tiger transmission / rotor system have any commonality with the EC225?

No, EC225 has five blades, the Tiger only four

[albatross]

No, EC225 has five blades, the Tiger only four

I was aware of the different number of blades but wondered about the gearbox.

[Jack Carson]

it happened in the Blackhawk ISTR.

Thanks Skadi - maybe an AFCS or Hyd malfunction.

The stabilator on the Blackhawk at 39 degrees trailing edge down provides more pitch control power than can be reacted by the main rotor pitch axis. Manual over rides were provided at the base of each cyclic stick grip to provide stabilator override in the event of a problem.

[rrekn]

I hear that Australia has grounded their Tigers now too...

[RickNRoll]

According to the Australian news Airbus has requested that they be grounded.

[rrekn]

I just heard that Bell's marketing guy broke his ankle trying to get down to Canberra so fast...

[Mee3]

Maybe it failed - it would not be the first time on an AH/EC/AS/SA product.
You anger is qualified to join the dark side.

[recceguy]

Yeap ... and Bell helicopters just grounded the whole US fleet of Bell 407 after the fatal crash of such a police helicopter in Charlottesville last week-end.

[212man]

You anger is qualified to join the dark side.
Anger? Where do you see that? It was a statement of fact that I'm aware of at least three failures, two of which provided a very interesting initial 'ride' for their crews until brought under control - with altitude to do so - and one that was fatal (http://www.mot.gov.my/SiteCollectionImages/kemalangan%20udara/9M-IGB%20latest.pdf)

[KiwiNedNZ]

Yeap ... and Bell helicopters just grounded the whole US fleet of Bell 407 after the fatal crash of such a police helicopter in Charlottesville last week-end.

Fake News :ok: Just checked with the Bell 407 Product Manager and he said totally incorrect.

[Mee3]

Anger? Where do you see that? It was a statement of fact that I'm aware of at least three failures, two of which provided a very interesting initial 'ride' for their crews until brought under control - with altitude to do so - and one that was fatal (http://www.mot.gov.my/SiteCollectionImages/kemalangan%20udara/9M-IGB%20latest.pdf)
Ugh? Cliff's broken tail dauphin?
Is this a desperate attempt to make a point?

[Rotate too late]

Not beyond the realms of possibility that the dive was an instinctive reaction to the onset of something ominous. The driver sticking it towards the ground in an attempt to land on possibly? Whilst the wing would have seen the dive, he probably wouldn't have noticed high vibration or other indications being given to the crew. I just hope that there are significant data gathering devices in the Tiger. I'm forever shucked how rotary seems to get away with a real lack of black boxes.
I hope they didn't suffer. Rest in peace.

[212man]

Ugh? Cliff's broken tail dauphin?
Is this a desperate attempt to make a point?

Are you smoking something or just trolling? I take it you are not aware that I'm a huge Airbus fan :ugh:

[recceguy]

" Bell helicopters just grounded the whole US fleet of Bell 407 after the fatal crash of such a police helicopter in Charlottesville last week-end "

Fake News :ok: Just checked with the Bell 407 Product Manager and he said totally incorrect.

My poor Kiwi, it was sarcastic - and you missed the point totally. Let's say it's a different culture....

[Mee3]

Are you smoking something or just trolling? I take it you are not aware that I'm a huge Airbus fan :ugh:
just don't think you should drag him into this.

[212man]

just don't think you should drag him into this.


I'm not dragging anybody into anything. I am, however, pointing out that there is actual evidence to support the fact that if you are in the cruise at low level and the horizontal stabiliser decides to depart/fold up, you will be in the ground pretty sharpish. Similarly, if you are in the cruise at altitude and the same thing happens, you will have a wild ride before (hopefully) regaining control. AS332s have been there.....

[[email protected]]

212 man - as demonstrated many times on these pages, people will read all sorts of things into what is meant to be a straightforward statement of fact.

And we wonder where the Daily Mail gets all its readers from..........:ok:

[RickNRoll]

According to this story.
Australia grounds Tiger fleet after German helicopter crash in Mali | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/08/australia-grounds-tiger-fleet-after-german-helicopter-crash-in-mali/)

"The Australian" made the claim that Airbus had grounded the Tiger. No such action has been made by AH. The reporter appears to have misunderstood the warning issued by AH.

[DHC4]

Any updates, seems to have gone a bit quite.

[Ian Corrigible]

Reuters: Airbus issues safety advice on Tiger helicopters flying in turbulence (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbus-helicopters/airbus-issues-safety-advice-on-tiger-helicopters-flying-in-turbulence-idUSKCN1BH1VD?il=0)
Airbus Helicopters has warned pilots of its Tiger military helicopters to be careful of rapid switches from auto pilot to manual mode during turbulence, after initial indications that such a switch may have played a role in a fatal crash in Mali.

According to a source who has seen the Airbus Helicopters’ bulletin that carried the warning, the bulletin said an unexpected switch from automatic to manual flight mode “may have played a role in the accident, according to information currently available”. The bulletin did not say whether the unexpected switch had happened automatically or been done manually.

Airbus said its safety guidance - sent to operators in Germany, Australia, France and Spain - was meant to “standardise all flight manuals and remind operators that crews must adjust their attention to environmental conditions while using the auto pilot during turbulence.”

The guidance reiterated passages already in the flight manuals which instruct pilots not to intentionally enter areas with more than moderate turbulence, and to avoid flying through “areas of severe turbulence.”

I/C

[Spunk]

So, from now on war will only take place when the wind is calm?🤔

[Otterotor]

And in 'not-very-hot' climate locales!:confused: Otter

[MightyGem]

the bulletin said an unexpected switch from automatic to manual flight mode “may have played a role in the accident
How does the system know whether it's an unexpected switch form auto to manual? What is an "unexpected" switch?

[Ian Corrigible]

The Rolls Royce M250's 'reversion to manual' issues from a decade ago might be one such example, i.e. where the EMC-35 FADEC was failing unexpectedly and reverting to manual hyd backup, resulting in several fatalities (civil and military), due both to pilots not immediately realizing that the reversion had occurred, as well as due to pilot workload issues.

I/C

[rrekn]

How does the system know whether it's an unexpected switch form auto to manual? What is an "unexpected" switch?

The 'unexpected' switch is right next to the 'any' Key...

[Praet]

Quips aside, as far as was published* the AFCS was in "altitude hold" mode and disengaged after aircraft movement due to turbulence caused its control inputs to exceed limits and it subsequently reverted to a manual stabilization mode.
This is not considered to be the cause of the mishap, rather something that may have developed during the event and contributed to the outcome. I assume this is an early result of accessing the FDR data that was found salvageable (while the CVR apparently is not).

*: Thomas Wiegold published a German language article on the Airbus ASB issued after the crash on his blog (http://augengeradeaus.net/2017/09/nach-tiger-absturz-in-mali-airbus-warnt-vor-turbulenzen-beim-flug-mit-autopilot/)

[TeeS]

rapid switches from auto pilot to manual mode during turbulence,

So how do you carry out a 'slow' switch from autopilot to manual mode?

TeeS

[BOBAKAT]

OK, you switch ( or it switch by himself )from auto to manual due to turbulences. Why not ?
But :
1/ Why you have the nose full down until the impact ?
2/ Why the second Tiger of the team don't have the same turbulences and switch change mode ?
Many years ago, some same accident involve the "Alouette" family. At this time it was the horizontal stabilizer inflight broke . At cruise speed : 80 kts, the stabilizer broke and the Alouette fall down nose down....
Now imagine the Tiger at cruise speed : 135 kts the same things happen . ....

[skadi]

Parts of the enginecowling were found in the desert some kilometers away from the crashsite...

skadi

[Flying Bull]

Newsmagazine reports, that the autopilot pushed the helicopter nose down and went offline.
The crew had no chance to regain control before overstress caused blades to disintegrate.
The autopilot was wrong programmed, not knowing wether it was Airbus or the Bundeswehr, who set up the Autopilot.
The fault wasn´t found in other tiger helicopters but restrictions have been implemented to prevent further accidents
Articel in German:
"Tiger"-Hubschrauber: Falsch eingestellter Auto-Pilot leitete Sturzflug ein - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/tiger-hubschrauber-falsch-eingestellter-auto-pilot-leitete-sturzflug-ein-a-1195721.html)

[DHC4]

Tiger crash in Mali explained | defenceWeb (http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50881:tiger-crash-in-mali-explained&catid=124:military-helicopters&Itemid=282)

The crash of a German military Airbus Tiger helicopter in Mali last July was caused by incorrect settings on the autopilot, Germany’s Spiegel Online reported.

The helicopter crashed while flying a peacekeeping mission in the West African nation’s desert north, killing both crew members

Spiegel Online said the Defence Ministry informed the parliamentary defence committee about the findings on Tuesday.

It said the autopilot controlled the aircraft’s elevator. It remained unclear who programmed the settings on the autopilot software, not found on any other Tiger helicopters.

Spiegel Online cited a report from the Defence Ministry as saying the autopilot flew the helicopter sharply lower, leaving the pilots no chance to manually take the aircraft higher again.

[Hot and Hi]

Elevator („Hoehenruder“)? Do we have such in a Tiger?

And what does this mean:
Bei dem betroffenen "Tiger", so der neue Bericht, sei der "normalerweise verfügbare Steuerweg in der Nickachse" allerdings erheblich eingeschränkt gewesen. Folglich steuerte der Autopilot mit dem "Steuerausschlag ganz vorne" in einen "unkontrollierten steilen Sturzflug".

What is „normalerweise verfügbarer Steuerweg“? Normally available control travel?

Loosely translated: Available control travel around the pitch axis was restricted. Hence, autopilot gave full nose down input.

Has this to do with ‘envelope protection’? Like as if under normal conditions full FRW or full AFT control input of cyclic (or whatever elevator a Tiger has) only translated to minor nose down, or nose up response? And maybe at the mishap moment an alternate control law being in effect, which mapped full cyclic control input to equally full ‘elevator deflection’? And finally, the autopilot not being aware of the alternate law in force?

How does this all work?

[Cyclic Hotline]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/airbus-staff-error-led-to-fatal-mali-helicopter-crash-german-11025022