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Long Haul
25th Jul 2017, 14:40
"Air India plane flies with wheels out, forced to land early"



Air India: AI plane flies with wheels out, forced to land early | India News - Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/ai-plane-flies-with-wheels-out-forced-to-land-early/articleshow/59747345.cms)

galaxy flyer
25th Jul 2017, 14:43
Simply unbelievable!

White Knight
25th Jul 2017, 14:48
Wow............ words totally fail me!!!

happybiker
25th Jul 2017, 14:52
Retraining for the cabin maybe?:ooh:

fox niner
25th Jul 2017, 15:09
You have got to be kidding. No way....
Remember Hapag LLoyd in Vienna?

Monarch Man
25th Jul 2017, 15:14
I'd check to see where they got their licenses, or more to the point, if they even have one.

gearlever
25th Jul 2017, 15:19
Sorry, sounds like utter BS to me.

galaxy flyer
25th Jul 2017, 15:32
F9er,

Well, the Hapag Lloyd crew knew the gear was down and why it was, they didn't fuel plan for the eventuality and didn't recognize its effects. Us C-5 guys are intimately familiar with gear down flights, drag indices and noise, vibration effects.

Startledgrapefruit
25th Jul 2017, 15:39
Sounds like they don't like women pilots

Airbubba
25th Jul 2017, 15:42
From the article linked above:

"After take off, both the women pilots forgot to retract the landing gear. As a result, the brand new Airbus A-320 continued to ascend at a very low climb rate. The plane finally gave up climbing after reaching an altitude of 24,000 feet as the extended landing gear meant very heavy drag. It then levelled out (continued flying at 24,000 feet as opposed to the usually assigned level of 35-37,000 feet) and flew at 230 knots (426 kmph) for the next 1.5 hours," said a source.

Aircraft are designed to fly with minimum drag for enhanced fuel efficiency and extended range. Since AI 676 was flying at a much lower than the optimal level and that too with wheels out, it meant more fuel burn due to extra drag.

By the time the A-320 was near Nagpur, it was very low on fuel and the pilots decided to divert there as the plane could not have made it to Mumbai. "When preparing to land, they decided to lower the landing gear. At this point they realised that the wheels had been out all the while from Kolkata," said the source.

I'd check to see where they got their licenses, or more to the point, if they even have one.

In some previous cases in India, the licenses were fraudulent, for example:

CHENNAI/NEW DELHI: The licence of a woman pilot of no-frills airline IndiGo has been cancelled after she made a rough landing in Goa last month, endangering several lives and investigators later found she had allegedly faked papers to get her permit to fly.

"Yes, it (commercial pilot's licence) has been cancelled. We will file a police complaint soon against the pilot, Parminder Kaur Gulati," DGCA Director General Bharat Bhushan said.

DGCA sources said the pilot while flying the private Indigo airliner made a rough landing at Goa airport on January 11 using the nose wheel instead of the rear landing gear.

Investigations have revealed that she used the wrong technique several times, the sources said.

The sources said the incident came to light when the Airbus A-320 returned to Delhi from Goa and a routine inspection found that its nosewheel was damaged.

The investigators then analysed the data of the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) of the aircraft, which the sources claimed, showed that the lady captain had used the wrong landing technique that caused the nosewheel damage.

Following the probe, it was also found that the papers of Capt Gulati were not in order and enquiries into them showed that the documents, required for getting a flying license, were forged, the sources claimed.


Nose wheel landing: DGCA cancels pilot's licence - Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nose-wheel-landing-DGCA-cancels-pilots-licence/articleshow/7586108.cms)

Herod
25th Jul 2017, 15:54
Goodness Gracious Me.

OvertHawk
25th Jul 2017, 16:01
I would have thought that the Airbus would have been screaming and shouting about the gear being in the wrong configuration!

Zionstrat2
25th Jul 2017, 16:04
As a GA guy, I really have no idea what Airbus monitoring and automation is capable of. I am pretty sure there is a ground proximity warning if attempting landing when gear is up.

If so, similar warnings seem obvious...overspeed, exceeding speed for flaps, gear,etc.

Can an Airbus pilot walk us through the system warnings that were missed?

mftx7jrn
25th Jul 2017, 16:16
Quite a tricky thing to do, I would imagine in a modern day airliner!

sleeper
25th Jul 2017, 16:21
If, and if, the reporting is true it is unbelievable. Forgetting to raise the landing gear is, fair enough, a mistake that can happen, not professional and all but it can happen. It is the part afterwards that is astounding! No, or badly done, after take off checklist. Aircraft barely climbs, only reaches fl240, presumably on full power. They cruise like that for an hour and only after fuel is getting low they divert.

If things like that happen and your engines are working it screams "drag". Either flaps, gear or structural damage and you do not proceed towards your destination without knowing what it is.

There must be more to it than what is reported,

Andy_S
25th Jul 2017, 16:22
I’m not a pilot, but I call BS on this. I can’t believe that a) there were no automated warnings, b) the pilots simply shrugged their shoulders and accepted the lack of performance, or c) that nobody noticed. I believe they have radar and ATC in India?

GarageYears
25th Jul 2017, 16:38
Confirms the flight AI676 on July 22nd took off Kolkata and diverted to Nagpur.... then continued from Nagpur to Mumbai

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai676/#e30062e

Long Haul
25th Jul 2017, 16:39
I guess that someone who doesn't like women pilots could have made all this up and fed it to the newspaper; but if you believe Flight Aware, the flight departed on time, only climbed to FL 240, and arrived three hours late in Mumbai. To me that points to an unplanned stop. There are some technical malfunctions that would make you level off low, but in that case one would expect a longer delay as they fixed the airplane at the diversion airport. I have never seen an airplane with a "gear down when should be up" warning, the reasons being that having the gear down is safer than having it up, and that it is extremely obvious by the noise level, lack of climb performance and increased fuel burn. Not to mention the checklist. There is an "insufficient fuel" warning, however, which the crew thankfully dealt with.

Perhaps a gear pin was left in, that would also explain it.

RAT 5
25th Jul 2017, 16:51
No-one has mentioned the 'After Takeoff Cx List.' Does this not include 'Gear Up'? If so, then it is more than a little forgetfulness, but a lack of Cx List discipline. It also exposes a lack of problem solving culture/philosophy/training. Problem: the a/c is not performing as expected; Why? En-route fuel checks, (issue that is an SOP) we are using too much fuel; Why? The vibration & noise is more than usual: why? So many questions should have been buzzing around the flight deck. There are supposed to be 2 brains up there. One might fail, but the back-up system should have been working. Good job they were not trying to climb over the Himalayas.

Does India have an alternative day to April 1st?

Martin_123
25th Jul 2017, 16:52
Perhaps a gear pin was left in, that would also explain it.

if the pin is still there, why not go back to departure point and remove it? Why press on, burn large amounts of fuel and cause delays?

qwertyuiop
25th Jul 2017, 17:05
if the pin is still there, why not go back to departure point and remove it? Why press on, burn large amounts of fuel and cause delays?

Leaving the ground locks in is a lot more plausible than forgetting to raise the gear then not noticing.

They may have then found themselves overweight for an immediate landing. Why not burn the fuel at least going in the right direction?

Smooth Airperator
25th Jul 2017, 17:08
Agree with sleeper

There is "Gear up" on the After Takeoff checklist, but in my company we don't even have an After Takeoff or Approach Checklist. Things are done as part of flows. In reality there could've been a distraction which prevented them from retracting the landing gear for a while, but this error is normally trapped within 30 seconds or so. After a minute, things would get very noisy indeed. You would(should) realize immediately that this machine isn't climbing and increasing speed like normal, "what could be wrong"? You would then employ your basic panel scan that you learnt in pilot kindergarten and would see these 3 big green lights staring at you indicating GEAR DOWN!!! Your cabin crew might tell you about "a loud continuous noise". All of this would certainly prompt you to slow down and identify the issue.

If the reporting is true, and there was no malfunction here, take both the pilots and jail them for incompetence of the highest order as they seem incapable of operating even the most basic machinery let alone a $100,000,000 jet plane.

fox niner
25th Jul 2017, 17:20
Perhaps a gear pin was left in, that would also explain it.

Hmm....nah. If the gear pins were left in, the crew would have found out at 100 feet. They would have initiated a return. End of.
This is soooo unbelievable.
As a comparison, have there been any instances wherein the crew forgot, and maintained their forgetfulness, to retract the flaps? I guess not.

@galaxy flyer: thanks. I remember now. I stand corrected. At Hapag LLoyd they screwed up, but possibly not as badly as these two clowns. Despite the good ending in this case.

Long Haul
25th Jul 2017, 17:22
if the pin is still there, why not go back to departure point and remove it? Why press on, burn large amounts of fuel and cause delays?

Because you wouldn't know that the gear pin was still in until you landed, all you would know is that you couldn't get the gear up. If you need to burn fuel (or dump it) to get below max landing weight anyway, you might as well fly on for awhile. Or maybe Nagpur is better for maintenance.

gearlever
25th Jul 2017, 17:22
I once had the gear to drop in a climb due to ECAM "BRAKES HOT" on A320.

The plane was full seated but only about 8 tons of fuel. We barely could maintain FL240 with CLB thrust and green dot speed. Very noisy and vibrating, all FA and most of the pax noticed it!

Even my 20 yr old deaf dog would have noticed something isn't right with AI 676.

faheel
25th Jul 2017, 17:54
I remember something similar happening many many moons ago in a now defunct British regional airline.

Aircraft was to fly Gatwick to Blackpool on a night freight run, weather was miserable,heavy rain,pilots did walk around removed gear pins and found crosswind was out of limits so went back to the crew room to wait it out.When the wind fell within limits they returned to the aircraft but did not do another walk around because of heavy rain,and departed.

It was only after they got airborne and tried to retract the gear they found out that the ground crew had reinstalled the pins , but rather then return, they decided to continue to destination.

The incident only came to light when ops later on wanted to know why the flight took so long !!

Airbubba
25th Jul 2017, 17:54
Could have been worse I suppose, at least VT-EXE is a single-bogie A320. ;)

One of the major mistakes the Hapag-Lloyd crew made in the VIE A310 mishap was relying on FMS fuels estimates in a non-clean configuration.

White Knight
25th Jul 2017, 18:09
I believe they have radar and ATC in India?

Don't believe what you see in the films... ATC may have radar but that only confirms to ATC where and how high the aeroplanes are!

And don't try and 'big up' ATC in India; it's bl00dy awful (having spent a lot of time flying into, out of and over the place...)

His dudeness
25th Jul 2017, 18:18
At Hapag LLoyd they screwed up, but possibly not as badly as these two clowns.

So, when comparing not understanding why more fuel is used etc. but not getting yourself in a corner without fuel vs. exactly knowing what is wrong and continue against the repeatedly issued warnings of your crewpartner (and the "needles"), then crashing the airplane in the end, "we" think the AI crew is worse than the Hapag pilots ?

Hmmmm...let me think... no, donīt agree.

Do we know ANYTHING yet but that newspaper article ? Roster, duty time etc ? Forgetting to bring the gear up sounds to me like something youīd easily be doing when really tired.

dhardesthard
25th Jul 2017, 19:49
At least they knew how to read the fuel gauges!

gearlever
25th Jul 2017, 19:57
At least they knew how to read the fuel gauges!

Or the FUEL LOW LEVEL warning popped up:ugh:

Andy_S
25th Jul 2017, 19:58
Don't believe what you see in the films... ATC may have radar but that only confirms to ATC where and how high the aeroplanes are!

My bold.

That's exactly the point I was making. Someone other than the pilots must have noticed that the aircraft wasn't at the correct altitude.

Una Due Tfc
25th Jul 2017, 20:02
My bold.

That's exactly the point I was making. Someone other than the pilots must have noticed that the aircraft wasn't at the correct altitude.

Who says they didn't request to level at FL240? They would have had to to stay there

galaxy flyer
25th Jul 2017, 20:12
What's the gear Mach limit on the A320? Is there a FCOM altitude limit?

GF

aeromech3
25th Jul 2017, 20:25
Most aircraft with retractable gear have limited gear down speeds not because of performance but structural damage eg: loss of fixed gear doors etc. Generally the noise in the flight deck from an extended nose gear would alarm the crew.
After a missed gear pin event, my airline insisted on the pins being shown to the crew and stowed in the flight deck; the tow crew had their own nose pin which they would hold up when signalling the all clear!

gearlever
25th Jul 2017, 20:58
Headline shout read:

Aadhya, it's noisy in here!

Job Knockey
25th Jul 2017, 21:17
Not all A320 operators have an "After Take Off Checklist".

easyJet, for example.

I'll go and check how often this happens there.

I may be some time. Don't wait.

Standby Scum
25th Jul 2017, 21:26
Then yesterday's news:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RskbusYY254

jack11111
25th Jul 2017, 21:51
This sounds like a gear-up problem, happening to two women pilots, turned into to a whopper of a put-down story.

gearlever
25th Jul 2017, 22:02
Yeah, something doesn't add up here IMHO. It would have been very easy for Air India to cover it up or to explain it with some tech trouble, instead they were unusual fast to point their finger at the pilots...

WingNut60
25th Jul 2017, 22:22
India being India, is there any likelihood that we will EVER know what really happened?
Or should we just do the usual and keep on guessing until some other more interesting event pops up or until we all run out of breath?

Toruk Macto
25th Jul 2017, 23:02
It's happened before where a plane flew gear down and put it up on finals for a wheels up landing so they get points for not trying to do that .

White Knight
26th Jul 2017, 05:15
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
Don't believe what you see in the films... ATC may have radar but that only confirms to ATC where and how high the aeroplanes are!
My bold.

That's exactly the point I was making. Someone other than the pilots must have noticed that the aircraft wasn't at the correct altitude.

The pilots request the altitude..... (Flight Level to be more specific). ATC will give them that level if it is available. If they request FL240 I doubt ATC gives a monkeys why. So back to the films:}

parabellum
26th Jul 2017, 05:54
No-one has mentioned the 'After Takeoff Cx List.' - See post # 15.

lelac
26th Jul 2017, 06:50
Guys, remember the Falcon trijet in Florida that took off for a short hop after a long night over the atlantic? Crew thought they lost eng 2 after take off. After a quick investigation... eng 2 was never started...

RetiredAviator
26th Jul 2017, 07:02
Sorry, sounds like utter BS to me.

It's impossible to believe, the story no doubt created by some misogynistic jerk.

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 08:11
SYSTEM BEHAVIOR

Question for A320 jocks (can't remeber after 20 years :)):

Is there any change in system(s) behavior if the gear stays down?
E.g. will the FMA show CLB PWR when reaching thrust red alt?

Piltdown Man
26th Jul 2017, 08:17
At least the penny eventually dropped. But what were these two doing that prevented them from an occasional scan around the aircraft? Why didn't they see an unusually low VMO due to gear down? The climb rate would have been pathetic but went un-noticed. I would suggest that the real problem lies upstream. There is probably a full circus of clowns in Flight Ops. and training. They have managed to recruit and train a crew in their own image.

Onesixty2four
26th Jul 2017, 08:32
Iím not a pilot, but I call BS on this. I canít believe that a) there were no automated warnings, b) the pilots simply shrugged their shoulders and accepted the lack of performance, or c) that nobody noticed. I believe they have radar and ATC in India?

Yes Andy, you're not a pilot so why do you feel your opinion is in any way relevant? There are no automated warnings on the 320 when the gear is down. Why should there be? That's what an after take-off checklist is for.

I do agree that it seems incredible that they simply didn't notice the noise, lack of performance and 3 green triangles on the dash. However, having flown around this part of the globe now for many years nothing surprises me any more.

Your last point. How the hell is radar and ATC going to figure out they have not retracted their gear?

max alt
26th Jul 2017, 09:03
Recent involvement with a major uk airline where there is no after take off checklist just the action of placing the gear lever to the off position after flaps are up/in.This is progress apparently!

pax britanica
26th Jul 2017, 09:49
Having had the experience of a flight of over 200 miles with gear down ina 767 it is extremely noise in the cabin and there was a fair amount of buffeting and shaking too it does seem hard to believe. especially with the landing gear status lights glowing green and in a world of touch screens and dinky switches a relatively big handle thing sticking out in the wrong place.

Just out of interest though why do some airlines have an after take off check list and some don't - certainly after the 737 dead crew incident some years ago it would seem a good practice to double check a few critical items but then no doubt have a good reason for not doing it, not like the crew get paid by the check lists they do is it

reivilo
26th Jul 2017, 10:09
Unbelievable that so many of you believe the juicy media 'blame the pilots, story'.

Maybe the gearpins were not removed before departure. This should be checked by the crew but apparently they didn't. Realizing their mistake directly after takeoff, they have a few options. Usually you would land at the place of departure, stow the gear pins, fuel up and buy a round of beer at your next layover.
However, maybe they were overweight for landing and preferred to proceed in the right direction while burning fuel?
Maybe they called the company and asked for advice. Maybe Kolkata was very congested and the company told them to continue towards destination and make a fuel- and gearpin removal stop along the way? Maybe Nagpur is a better place for maintenance?
Maybe this crew didn't want to admit the screw up because of cultural blaming/shaming issues and they preferred to continue towards destination?

In short: we don't know the full details here and it's not clear that the pilots are the ones to be blamed for this.

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 10:13
Yep. This story is so weired, I don't believe.....

Sidestick_n_Rudder
26th Jul 2017, 11:03
I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't flown in India...

falcon12
26th Jul 2017, 12:32
Back in my flying days the first check and response on the pre flight start up check was 'Blanks and pins removed and stowed?' The reply had to be in the affirmative or you got out and checked.

Have things changed today?

MATELO
26th Jul 2017, 13:05
Unbelievable that so many of you believe the juicy media 'blame the pilots, story'.

Maybe the gearpins were not removed before departure. This should be checked by the crew but apparently they didn't. Realizing their mistake directly after takeoff, they have a few options. Usually you would land at the place of departure, stow the gear pins, fuel up and buy a round of beer at your next layover.
However, maybe they were overweight for landing and preferred to proceed in the right direction while burning fuel?
Maybe they called the company and asked for advice. Maybe Kolkata was very congested and the company told them to continue towards destination and make a fuel- and gearpin removal stop along the way? Maybe Nagpur is a better place for maintenance?
Maybe this crew didn't want to admit the screw up because of cultural blaming/shaming issues and they preferred to continue towards destination?

In short: we don't know the full details here and it's not clear that the pilots are the ones to be blamed for this.

interestingly, the scenario you mention, blames the pilots.

standbykid
26th Jul 2017, 13:53
Straight from the 172 into the Bus.

andrasz
26th Jul 2017, 14:06
Before jumping on the bandwagon I'd urge everyone to think for a moment. All this is based on a press item in India, the standards of which make the Daily Mirror appear a pillar of ethical journalism.

The news may contain trace elements of truth (eg. possibly the fight did happen with gear extended), but the very fact that the gender of the pilots is mentioned should raise a flag. I cannot believe that anyone with enough competence to get a 320 into the air would fail to notice a GD situation. There are any number of possible explanatons, as some of the more sober posters have already outlined.

GarageYears
26th Jul 2017, 14:08
Rather annoying to repeatedly see people commenting "this can't be real" or similar.

It's not hard to find the flight on FlightRadar24 Flightaware for July 22nd.

The flight diverted to Nagpur and never exceeded 24K feet...

Here, you can look for yourselves: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC676/history/20170722/0355Z/VECC/VABB

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 14:14
Before jumping on the bandwagon I'd urge everyone to think for a moment. All this is based on a press item in India, the standards of which make the Daily Mirror appear a pillar of ethical journalism.

The news may contain trace elements of truth (eg. possibly the fight did happen with gear extended), but the very fact that the gender of the pilots is mentioned should raise a flag. I cannot believe that anyone with enough competence to get a 320 into the air would fail to notice a GD situation. There are any number of possible explanatons, as some of the more sober posters have already outlined.

I absolutely agree. On previous incidents AI spokesmen tried to cover it up or played it down. Here they were very direct and fast.....

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 14:15
Sure, I know. But this doesn't mean the crew wasn't aware of a GD situation, does it?

Nil further
26th Jul 2017, 14:41
RAT 5

The Airbus narrow body fleet has no after T/O checklist (anyone operating Airbus SOP anyways )

J.O.
26th Jul 2017, 14:47
It's been a little while but if that's true then it's a fairly recent change. The standard Airbus checklist had an after takeoff checklist for many years.

While the A320 has no "you're flying with the gear down, stupid" warning, there is a warning for excessive airspeed with the gear down. I believe it is triggered at 290 kts, so if that warning was never triggered, they never attempted to fly at such a speed, which is not a normal A320 profile.

tom775257
26th Jul 2017, 15:09
A320 Airbus SOP checklist AFAIK:

After Takeoff / Climb

LDG GEAR......UP
FLAPS...........RETRACTED
PACKS..........ON
-------------------------
BARO REF......___ SET (BOTH)

RoyHudd
26th Jul 2017, 16:47
Max Altitude for A320 Gear Extended----FL250.

Looks like Gear Pin issue, and the flight crew new perfectly well what they were doing.

lurkio
26th Jul 2017, 16:55
The FL250 limitation disappeared out of my airline's FCOM a few months ago.

Airbubba
26th Jul 2017, 17:11
It's not hard to find the flight on FlightRadar24 Flightaware for July 22nd.

The flight diverted to Nagpur and never exceeded 24K feet...

Actually, on the FR24 speed and altitude graph you can see that they struggled to slightly above 240 (looks like FL245) and then went down to FL240 for the remainder of the cruise to Nagpur.

lurkio
26th Jul 2017, 17:19
The normal VLE is 280/M0.67
The gear down ferry VMO/MMO is 235/M0.60 (activated by a switch in the avionics bay)
With this switch selected you will then get the FLT L/G DOWN memo displayed.
I cannot find any cruise performance figures for above FL290 for any weight.
As well as the FCOM limit disappearing the flight level caution note in the QRH (and FCOM) emergency descent procedure where it says you could lower the L/G has also gone.

lurkio
26th Jul 2017, 17:35
If you go to the fuel penalty factors table for all gears extended it refers to PRO SPO 25-10 which is Flight with gear down. There it says that for a failure of the retraction system (whether mechanical or cerebral - my entry) then the limits of that section apply. At FL240 fuel flow from the planning tables appears to be in the order of 1600-1800kg/hr per side depending on weight. This with an indicated speed of 210 for a TAS of 302.

eckhard
26th Jul 2017, 17:48
While I do not wish to comment on this specific incident, as I don't have the facts, it does remind me of two incidents that I had which are examples of the errors to which humans are vulnerable, be they of male, female or indeterminate gender:

1: Citation II. Two crew public transport. Levelled at FL330 and wondered why the airspeed was slower than expected. Eventually discovered that the flaps were still at the take-off setting.

2: B737-300. Public transport. I forgot to call for gear up after take-off. When discovered a few minutes later, the F/O retracted the gear, but then later inadvertently placed the lever through 'OFF' to 'DOWN'. Led to a few choice remarks about 'strange noises' in the cabin from the Flight Attendants!

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 17:51
Yep, s*** happens, but 2.5 hrs with the gear down and pedal to the metal....:*

Airbubba
26th Jul 2017, 17:59
1: Citation II. Two crew public transport. Levelled at FL330 and wondered why the airspeed was slower than expected. Eventually discovered that the flaps were still at the take-off setting.

I don't think having the flaps out at FL330 slowed down the Citation II much. On the CE-550 I used to worry about trailing edge bird strikes. ;)

Marlon Brando
26th Jul 2017, 18:16
An article about the same event here :

Fuel crisis: Wheels down, Air India flies into mid-air fuel crisis | Mumbai News - Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/wheels-down-air-india-flies-into-mid-air-fuel-crisis/articleshow/59747213.cms?)

They do not mention the female gender

Teevee
26th Jul 2017, 19:01
I'm not a pilot s forgive me for asking but ... if they are monitoring the fuel levels then how fr away from that 'display' is the gear indicator? My point being how possible is it to NOT see one if you are looking at the other? According to the reports they only noticed the gear was still down on approach, but if they already knew they were on low fuel how likely if the displays are close together is it that they wouldn't have seen the gear indicator?

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 19:30
Teeve, the fuel quantity (FOB) is shown on the upper display right beside the gear lever and of course for each tank on the ovhd panel.

http://www.flyian.net/cockpit/pits/a320/ecam.jpg

Teevee
26th Jul 2017, 19:40
Thank you gl ! So in essence they're next to each other which to me at least indicates that if you are seeing at fl240 that you are low enough to divert it'd be hard to miss any gear down indication. So only spotting it on approach seems even more unlikely,

gearlever
26th Jul 2017, 19:44
Indeed! In addition, the gear lights (not illuminated here:*) are directly beside the FOB indication !

As I said before IMHO they knew the gear was down.

b1lanc
27th Jul 2017, 01:37
This one AC709 from LaGuardia to Toronto on the 18th - prior to AI. 17,000 at 305kts plus.

Airbubba
27th Jul 2017, 02:25
These guys in an A319 declared a PAN with New York Departure climbing through 1700 feet with a Landing Gear Shock Absorber Fault. They pressed on to YYZ.

Anilv
27th Jul 2017, 04:17
About 10 years ago I was handling a flight departing belonging to a certain ME airline.

It had arrived from the ME and was supposed to depart KUL to CGK (shuttle with same crew). They had a problem with the landing gear not retracting but elected to continue to CGK as they had uplifted fuel for the return leg as well ex-KUL so the higher burn was still OK.

MCC picked this up and instructed them to divert to SIN instead where facilities like aircraft jacks etc would be available.

My point is that once you are up in the air.. you have to land somewhere and landing at an airport where facilities are better would be preferable to getting stuck somewhere without facilities. In the above example, CGK would not have had jacks and parts for this aircraft type and the AOG could potentially be weeks.

I could imagine the scenario here where the PIC was instructed to continue to Mumbai but when fuel became an issue they had to divert. The resulting fallout could be a case of the pilots being sacrificed to save HQ's 'face'.

Koan
27th Jul 2017, 10:58
Of course they knew they gear was down shortly after takeoff.
The classic excuse "technical fault", or perhaps somebody forgot to check the gear pins?

For some reason they pressed on, at least when fuel got low a good decision was made. Without a transparent investigation published we'll never know.

Andy_S
27th Jul 2017, 11:45
Yes Andy, you're not a pilot so why do you feel your opinion is in any way relevant?

My apologies if I caused any offence. For the record, Iíve always taken the view that R&N should primarily be for the use of industry professionals which is why I clearly stated that I wasnít one. And I agree Ė my opinions are less valid than yours. But this was such an incredible bordering on unbelievable story I couldn't resist commentingÖÖ

Your last point. How the hell is radar and ATC going to figure out they have not retracted their gear?

I may not be an aviation professional, but Iím not stupid. Obviously the position of the landing gear canít be deduced by radar. But the flight level can. I would have thought that FL240 was an unusual flight level to request and would have raised a few questions. But as White Knight noted, ATC may not particularly care, and you and others seem to think that these sort of things arenít unusual for India in any case.

So once again, with my humble apologies, Iíll quietly back out of this discussion.

Koan
27th Jul 2017, 12:00
ATC will give generally you any available altitude you request, unless it is in conflict with route requirements. I once did a flight in an RJ at 12,000 feet. Way low, a few questions were asked but engine anti-ice was MEL'ed and even thought it was midsummer I had to stay out of icing conditions. I also flew one in to maintenance hub about 300 miles with the gear pins installed. Max Extended Speed 250. We got no more than 220 out of it don't remember the altitude.

currawong
27th Jul 2017, 12:01
I expect the crew will be along shortly to offer their side of the story.

Or not.

neilki
27th Jul 2017, 12:53
ATC in the US will often ask if your unusual altitude is for 'Operational Reasons' but no RVSM will be denoted in the equipment suffix.
As far as this being a previously unheard of event; if your company or regulator shares ASR or FOQA data you may be able to see otherwise.
Personally I struggle to see how anyone gets this far configured like this; but they were likely talking to company and deeply
Into the PERF pages too..
Woods for the trees.
If in doubt; re run the checklists...!

Eau de Boeing
27th Jul 2017, 15:40
I wouldn't credit Indian ATC with that level of situational awareness!

FalseGS
27th Jul 2017, 21:54
Sorry to burst your bubble but I have done more than my fair share of flying in India and with single pack dispatches. Without any exceptions, have been queried by ATC about staying at 240/250.

Always appreciated the crosscheck which I would expect from ATC. Indian ATC sure is a pain in the backside but on this I cannot judge them as dimly as you do.

packapoo
27th Jul 2017, 22:15
I wouldn't credit Indian ATC with that level of situational awareness!

Well would seem to be in keeping with their piloting skills :confused:

ManaAdaSystem
27th Jul 2017, 22:48
Unless tings have changed, minimum FL on airways in India is FL280.
I did a flight with one pack inop, and despite calling ATC and telling them we could not climb above FL250 and getting their permission to fly at this FL, the moment we climbed out from MAA and asking for FL250 we were told we could not fly at that level.
It took some explaining (again) before we got clearance for FL250.

Perwazee
27th Jul 2017, 23:48
History of PIA - Pakistan International Airlines (http://www.historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm)

In that part of the world, they either forget to retract Landing Gear, or forget to lower it!

Enos
28th Jul 2017, 02:29
I believe this story.

Years ago a mate needed to off load a problem.

Had taken off from a rough runway in bad weather with a new FO (Boeing)

With the distraction of the rough runway combined with a deviation from the SID for weather avoidance, the FO never said positive climb, que the captain didn't say gear up.

The knew they had a problem.

Aviate Navigate Communicate.

So they continued to climb and avoid weather, the aircraft didn't climb well and vibrated but as he said it wasn't a gear problem because they had three greens, so it must have been engine problems or weather, 15000ft again looked at the gear, three greens, said he really wanted to hang his hat on a problem and not create a new one and three greens looked good, over loaded by the weather the vibration and flying single pilot.

Raised the gear

Old Fella
28th Jul 2017, 05:51
Andy, you should feel no requirement to offer any apology to onesixty2four. Not everyone is so full of their own importance and so dismissive of others. As something of a "old dinosaur" in comparison to many on this forum I am constantly amazed by some of the comments made by so called "professionals". In these days of automation in aircraft and systems I wonder at just how "professional" some pilots really are, especially when I read some comments on PPRuNe.

Old Fella
28th Jul 2017, 09:24
Not all A320 operators have an "After Take Off Checklist".

easyJet, for example.

I'll go and check how often this happens there.

I may be some time. Don't wait.

I have no idea whether this story is an "Indian April Fool's Day" beatup or not. What I do find hard to accept is that there are some operators out there who do not use any formal "After Take-off Checklist". What other checklists do these operators not bother with? What is the rationale in dispensing with the After Take-off Checklist or any other checklist?

Eau de Boeing
28th Jul 2017, 09:31
False G/S my bubble with Indian ATC was burst a long time ago when I started flying in the region and that's if you can even get through to them at all on VHF or HF.


I will agree with you that they are the second best ATC unit in the world, the best being everyone else!

gearlever
28th Jul 2017, 11:53
I have no idea whether this story is an "Indian April Fool's Day" beatup or not. What I do find hard to accept is that there are some operators out there who do not use any formal "After Take-off Checklist". What other checklists do these operators not bother with? What is the rationale in dispensing with the After Take-off Checklist or any other checklist?

Interesting..., in my outfit (EU legacy carrier) we had a formal "After Take-off Checklist", but..... the landing gear wasn't incorporated.

16024
28th Jul 2017, 12:10
Andy, you should feel no requirement to offer any apology to onesixty2four. Not everyone is so full of their own importance and so dismissive of others. As something of a "old dinosaur" in comparison to many on this forum I am constantly amazed by some of the comments made by so called "professionals". In these days of automation in aircraft and systems I wonder at just how "professional" some pilots really are, especially when I read some comments on PPRuNe.

Seconded.
Andy must have written his "apology" through gritted teeth. Of course we professionals have nothing to learn from the muggles, as this event may or may not demonstrate.

PS: will the real 16024 please stand up...

Herod
28th Jul 2017, 13:59
Also seconded. As someone who retired with some 19,000 hours, I find I can still learn from people on this site. If PPLs and SLFs wish to expand their knowledge, then why not, as long as they declare their status. i.e. non-professional.

Two's in
28th Jul 2017, 14:07
Smoking holes in the ground pay no respect to hours and experience. It sometimes takes a question from out of left field to realize how much sub-conscious bias experience gives you.

Old Fella
28th Jul 2017, 14:16
Also seconded. As someone who retired with some 19,000 hours, I find I can still learn from people on this site. If PPLs and SLFs wish to expand their knowledge, then why not, as long as they declare their status. i.e. non-professional.

Thank you Herod. I spent almost all of my working life in aviation and one of the most appealing aspects of the profession to me is that there was never a day or a flight during which I did not have an opportunity to learn something new or revise something old. Unfortunately age and health issues mean all I am allowed to fly these days is a "drone", and I sure as hell have much to learn about that activity.

Sailvi767
29th Jul 2017, 12:53
No Ecam message, no problem! Ignore the slow climb rate, vibration, slow speed, noise, high fuel flow and FL240 max altitude. No Ecam continue to destination!

RAT 5
29th Jul 2017, 15:48
People can beat their gums speculating all day long, but until the crew's story is published that's all it will be. Was there a pin problem? Was there a 'gear up' problem? I once had it on B757 where the tilt switch failed, but then the trigger solution worked. I've known of at least 3 occasions where the nose gear pin was left in. How? Because the techie had his own pin, he was then distracted, and there were 3 nice shiny pins still in the flight deck. Horrible rainy night so I guess the crew walk round was swift.
There could be a respectable reason for this event. I hope we do hear the truth, but don't hold your breath. Maybe someone has an inside contact?

Sailvi767
29th Jul 2017, 16:29
There may be a respectable reason for the gear to not come up. There is no respectable reason to not understand they are not up.

His dudeness
29th Jul 2017, 16:37
Theres no reasonable, respectable reason to suspect what you seem to suspect at this stage, with the info available AT THIS TIME.

masalama
30th Jul 2017, 04:01
I find it hard to believe that the pilots would'nt know their gear was extended throughout the flight . On the 737 , we have a landing gear lever will not go up or so checklist with multiple reasons for the same , for example an AirGround Sensor defect . Is the same possible on a 320.

Indian aviation reporting leaves a lot to be desired IMHO so wouldn't trust their sensationalistic reporting . I'm hoping there's more this than what's being presently reported.

As for comments like these from packapoo
Well would seem to be in keeping with their piloting skills

Over generalisation of a whole pilot community is not going to help. India is a fast growing market( forecast to be 3rd largest in world by 2020) and there are bound to be teething troubles and growing pains and we need to be extra careful in selection and upgrades and I can see that happening at least in the airline I work at , we need to learn and correct the why's and how's not start a we're better than them debate.

silvertate
30th Jul 2017, 09:16
An Air India crew forgot to retract the gear, and then had to divert because the fuel was getting low. This is despite the fact that the aircraft could not reach cruising altitude, which might have been a clue.

I have noticed more airlines no longer saying 'up, red lights out' and 'down, three greens'. Which may be a contributary factor. As to the noise, you do get used to it. I had to do a gear down ferry once, and after a while the noise sounded normal.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/ai-plane-flies-with-wheels-out-forced-to-land-early/articleshow/59747345.cms

PENKO
30th Jul 2017, 14:57
Maybe they were both wearing good quality noise cancelling headsets and did not notice anything out of the ordinary:)


More seriously, a few here seem surprised at the lack of an after takeoff checklist on the A320. They probably have never flown Airbus, for I have no idea what to put in such a checklist that's worth checking.

Flaps? Nope, it's pretty obvious when they're out
Lights? That's pilot's discretion anyway
Packs? Airbus ECAM takes care of that
Baro? That would depend on the airport SID wouldn't it? Anyway, Airbus takes care of that as well with a flashing display.
Gear? Well...

I see no need for a checklist after takeoff, not on an A320.

PENKO
30th Jul 2017, 15:12
I have noticed more airlines no longer saying 'up, red lights out' and 'down, three greens'.

If you fly an aircraft that is designed to tell you wether you have a gear problem or not, then what is the use of such a call out? If the red lights are not out, ECAM will tell you so more reliably than those light bulbs!

Superpilot
30th Jul 2017, 15:14
I have noticed more airlines no longer saying 'up, red lights out' and 'down, three greens'. Which may be a contributary factor. As to the noise, you do get used to it. I had to do a gear down ferry once, and after a while the noise sounded normal.


Uhh, no. This practice largely ended over 30 years ago within commercial jet transport flying. If the story is true, these two will be exposed as the cosetted daughters of some chief and/or holders of licenses/ratings earned in controversial ways.

RAT 5
30th Jul 2017, 19:40
ECAM will tell you so more reliably than those light bulbs!
Or EFIS

And that is exactly why many of todays pilots are so complement and one screw up away from a major incident. They wait to be told when they've screwed up, and are then on a catch up race. I get that enough at home. At work I like to make my own decision I've screwed up and correct it by my own initiative.

Old Fella
31st Jul 2017, 04:54
Maybe they were both wearing good quality noise cancelling headsets and did not notice anything out of the ordinary:)


More seriously, a few here seem surprised at the lack of an after takeoff checklist on the A320. They probably have never flown Airbus, for I have no idea what to put in such a checklist that's worth checking.

Flaps? Nope, it's pretty obvious when they're out
Lights? That's pilot's discretion anyway
Packs? Airbus ECAM takes care of that
Baro? That would depend on the airport SID wouldn't it? Anyway, Airbus takes care of that as well with a flashing display.
Gear? Well...

I see no need for a checklist after takeoff, not on an A320.


Without knowing just what the crew knew, it seems an After Take-off checklist may have been beneficial in this case. Like many other commentators on this thread I find it incomprehensible that the crew did not realize the gear was not retracted. Just how many cues do they need to tell them all is not correct?

Smooth Airperator
31st Jul 2017, 06:54
If you are stupid enough not to see the 3 BRIGHT GREEN lights in front of you throughout a 2 hour flight then you are also probably stupid enough not to call for or read correctly a paper checklist.

At my airline there is no After Takeoff, Descent and Approach checklist. No checklists in the air. Everything is done as part of flows and we rely on the ECAM display to spot things that have been missed. It's worked fine for many years. I really don't wish to see this changed for the benefit of a 3rd world, sorry "developing world" airline that hires pilots based on their social class and who they're related to. Thanks

ACMS
31st Jul 2017, 09:09
Maybe they we're testing the new A320 fixed gear version:ok:

India is full of test Pilots after all. :sad:

Volume
31st Jul 2017, 11:17
it may sound like a stupid question...
Will the Airbus indicate 3 green if you select gear up but a forgotten pin stops the gear from actually retracting? After all, the unlock actuators have unlocked the gear, so it should no longer indicate 3 green, should it?

Herod
31st Jul 2017, 11:42
Not an "after take-off check", but SOP in my old company.

PNF (or PM if you prefer) "positive climb"

PF "Gear up".

Works.

gearlever
31st Jul 2017, 12:15
it may sound like a stupid question...
Will the Airbus indicate 3 green if you select gear up but a forgotten pin stops the gear from actually retracting? After all, the unlock actuators have unlocked the gear, so it should no longer indicate 3 green, should it?

If memory serves me right, yes the 3 greens will remain, BUT also red light(s) and ECAM warning.

underfire
31st Jul 2017, 19:42
this is not the first time that AI had had pins left in. Perhaps, rather than dump fuel and return, they just diverted to a different airport.

RAT 5
31st Jul 2017, 20:20
But then what happened? Remove pin and did they then move on?

ATC Watcher
1st Aug 2017, 19:50
What about a scenario @ la Hapag Lloyd ? :

1-gear fail to retract for whatever reason.
2-crew talks to OPS which advise continuing at lower speed/alt while problem is investigated
3. Crew is offered to land on alternate en route where : a) technical support is avail , and/or b) another aircraft is avail to ferry the pax to destination.
4)after landing journalist finds out a all female crew and makes a nice juicy story...

That will fits also the " facts " no ? Reacting to media "investigations" is always touchy

Smooth Airperator
1st Aug 2017, 20:33
So why has the airline "derostered" the pilots pending investigation

Teevee
2nd Aug 2017, 10:26
Again I am not a pilot but I can think of a few reasons, none of which involve the pilots actually being negligent. A better question might be, "so why is it being REPORTED the pilots have been 'derostered' ....

Uplinker
4th Aug 2017, 17:33
...........I've known of at least 3 occasions where the nose gear pin was left in. How? Because the techie had his own pin, he was then distracted, and there were 3 nice shiny pins still in the flight deck. Horrible rainy night so I guess the crew walk round was swift.

Yeah, this is why I have never quite understood the point of checking if there are pins on the flight deck. The Engs or tug crew could have used other pins.

A better way to be certain is to actually look at the points on each gear where the pins/sleeves go and make sure they are clear.

We did a gear-down ferry about 5 years ago in an A330 at FL250 and 250Kts. I put ear plugs in and my headset over them and turned the volume up. Worked OK, (although some folk were a bit concerned about us flying like that right over New York, post 9/11).

Duchess_Driver
5th Aug 2017, 14:34
Old boss relates a tale of climbing out of a 'major' in a 146 - notices something's not quite right with the performance and in general, the aircraft. After minutes scratching his head he turns to the PM and says - "radio xxx, tell them we'd like to return.". PM says, "certainly Sir, would you like me to do that before or after you tell me to raise the gear?"

RAT 5
5th Aug 2017, 14:43
The biggest mistake, forgetful moment, I see in the sim with cadets is forgetting to raise the gear either on a GA, or an engine failure, or turbulent X-wind. PF is fixated on flying and PM is fixated on what has gone wrong or not letting PF spear in. Problem is that all that drag makes whatever problem there is much worse.
I'm not suggesting there was such a scenario here, but it is so easy for attention to be diverted at a critical moment and forget to return to the normal sequence. Cadets being side-tracked, yes; well experienced line crews much less likely.

45989
5th Aug 2017, 15:21
Flown a few 320's with gear down for operational (going to be scrapped) reasons. Range with max fuel is approx 750nm speed limited to less than 230kt
Wonder what thought process went on on the Indians flight?