Flight Engineers

[Mooncrest]

I assume the FE is a vanishing profession since the advent of the two-crew cockpit. Are any new FEs being trained for remaining three-crew aircraft ? Does the position stay unfilled or does a third pilot occupy the FE seat ?

How did the likes of Britannia Airways and Southwest Airlines deal with the FE question when they briefly operated Boeing 707s and 727s respectively in addition to their 737s ?

Thank you.

[bafanguy]

Moon,

I'd guess there's still training capacity available to produce F/Es. A look at Pan Am Academy's website, for example, shows a number of sims for airplanes requiring an F/E. And there are still a couple of freight companies here operating B727s. The occasional DC8 or L1011 appears. While not around in significant numbers, and we don't hear much about it, F/E spots exist; The market ALWAYS provides !

I have a dim recollection of hearing that SWA trained up a number of their mechanics for the B727 F/E spots during that experimental phase of their history. Don't bet the grocery money on that but it's what I recall.

[thetimesreader84]

How did the likes of Britannia Airways and Southwest Airlines deal with the FE question when they briefly operated Boeing 707s and 727s

Can't speak for those airlines specifically, but one way was to train the FO as an FE - in fact for one airline I know that used to operate 3 crew aeroplanes, you would spend the first 6 months as an FO sitting in the middle seat "working the panel" before being allowed to operate the aircraft proper. For more experienced crews, a coin flip or some other equally acceptable method pre flight would determine who performed which role.

[Mooncrest]

Interesting replies. It appears that the FE seat isn't, or wasn't, necessarily occupied by an actual Flight Engineer per se. Makes me wonder if the CAA and FAA have fairly flexible rules with the FE seat.

Slight digression but was the Caravelle a two or three flight crew aeroplane ? Given that it was in many ways a two-engined Comet, I would guess three but I can't be certain.

[fantom]

Flt Engs are really useful because, if you come down in the desert, you can eat them.

[bafanguy]

It appears that the FE seat isn't, or wasn't, necessarily occupied by an actual Flight Engineer... Makes me wonder if the CAA and FAA have fairly flexible rules with the FE seat.

Moon,

Oh, we were "actual" F/Es by technical definition. We just weren't what we called professional flight engineers (PFE) or F/E crewmen with no pilot credentials or aspirations who did that as a life's work. The PFE commonly began life as a mechanic and were worth their weight in gold, particularly in the non-sked biz where you went places not having your own MTC personnel. If they didn't do actual repairs, they were valuable in supervising the repairs by whatever MTC people showed up to do needed work.

As for "flexible rules", they aren't. The position is defined and requires dedicated training and an FAA F/E license with recip, TP or TJ ratings. For us pilot/F/Es who hired on with carriers operating 3-crew airplanes (and intending a multi-decade career with said carrier), we took positions as demanded by manning requirements...and allowed by seniority...with the expectation of moving to a "window" seat in due course. Overall circumstances dictated when.

Not sure about the Caravelle. I asked the same question in a Caravelle thread but no one answered it.

[megan]

Caravelle - The FAA TCDS calls for minimum crew of pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer on all three models of the aircraft, Model I, Model III, and Model VIR. The VIR could dispense with the engineer for training and ferry flights, and seemingly also for all flights if a certain (unstated) mod had been incorporated.

[TowerDog]

Aye F/E...
Tried it once, on the B-727.
Lasted 3 months, or 92 hours.
A dying breed for sure.
I flew F/O and Capt on planes with F/Es and appreciated those guys and girls.
Sitting back there and monitoring they were quality control and probably saved a few arses over the years.
Air Florida anybody..?

[Mooncrest]

Didn't a few US airlines order three-crew versions of the early 767 back in the day ? I'd be surprised if any of these aeroplanes were still in service and even more so if they still operated with three crew.

[aterpster]

I can only speak to TWA's first 767 order. The first few were manufactured with a F/E station. When the union accepted a study about uselessness of a F/E on the 767, prior to delivery the finished airplanes were cycled through Boeing ICT, and converted to 2-crew configuration.

Made for a nice big flight deck, though. They couldn't shrink that.

[galaxy flyer]

I believe the Ansett B767-200 planes were flown with an F/E and, obviously were delivered with the panel installed.

John Tullamarine:. Any recollections?

[old,not bold]

Wonderful chaps in their own way, and surely responsible for more than one prevention of error by the pilots.

And then again, on December 4th 1974.......

While on a night flight operating as BA910 from Hong Kong to Tokyo, somewhere over the South China Sea, G-ASGL suffered a fuel transfer error that caused all four engines to run down. In order to correct an imbalance the Flight Engineer had all four engines feeding from the number 4 main tank, but forgot about the situation. Later on when he was briefly away from his station the main tank ran dry. Initially no.3 engine flamed out, causing the speed to drop towards 250 knots, and the crew reacted by securing the engine. Just as the other power levers were being advanced to check the speed the other three engines also flamed out creating an eerie silence on the flight deck.

Mind you, he did well after that....

As the flameouts caused all the generators to drop off line, the ELRAT (electric ram air turbine) was quickly deployed, restoring electrical power to the flight controls. In the meantime a shaken Flight Engineer had returned to his post and commenced to restart the four engines, so that several minutes later all was back to normal except for the deployed ELRAT.

It's a masterful understatement; "several minutes later all was back to normal" disguises quite a lot of frenetic and extremely skilled activity by the crew as the aircraft descended quite quickly towards the ocean, including overcoming the divergent 45 degree Dutch roll that resulted from loss of the yaw damper after the initial total loss of power. (As I recall it, the F/O suggested using the speedbrake, which worked.)

[galaxy flyer]

How could he possibly think running ALL four engines from ONE tank was a good idea? What a fuel imbalance it must have been.

[megan]

Thread here GF on the Ansett 767.

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/498549-flight-engineer-mystery-man-exposed-2.html

[Mooncrest]

So what becomes of the FE when their services are no longer required ? Back to the hangar or the line ?

[MarkerInbound]

It would obviously depend on the airline and the FE's qualifications. At the majors over here most of the FEs hired in the 70 through the 90s were pilots and the FE seat was first stop in their airline career they moved to a window seat as the two seat aircraft came on line. For the PFEs, those without a pilot license, it would be a different story. I know one PFE at brand AA who moved to the training department. Most airlines gave them priority for other jobs they were qualified for but many ended up out on the street.

At a prior job many of the FEs were pilots who had reached 60 years of age. We called it our retirement program to move back to the FE seat. They finally had to give up flying, whether they were ready or not. At the current job when we parked the Classics the company gave them the option if they could get 500 hours pilot time they could apply for a window seat. Some did, some didn't.

[bafanguy]

At a prior job many of the FEs were pilots who had reached 60 years of age. We called it our retirement program to move back to the FE seat.


MI,

Yep, we had that too but I don't know how many actually did it...and it was a source of friction and ill will from the sub-60 guys who wanted higher paid spots like the L-1011 F/E. The ROPEs (retired old pilot engineers) bid with their original seniority (having bid back to F/E just before hitting age 60 vs officially "retiring"...and then coming to the F/E seat), IIUC, and went right to the top of the category.

Some people were not amused. I didn't care since a F/E slot was the last thing I wanted.

[MarkerInbound]

ROPEs, I had forgotten that term. We only had one airframe that required FEs (727s) so there wasn't a pay issue and they opened a window seat for a junior FEs. I remember one pilot who was upset he turned 60 about a month before the law changed. But the company cratered a few months later so he actually had a job a few months longer than if he had stayed on the (shrinking) pilot list.

[Reverserbucket]

I remember a number of Concorde F/E's at BA retrained as pilots and were put through the ab-initio pilot training programme at the same time as the young cadets on the sponsored courses in the early 2000's.

[exeng]

Your statement is correct, however it was not just Concorde F/E's but also some from the 747 Classic, DC10 and Tristar fleets.

[bafanguy]

A history of the F/E in the USA:


Flying The Line 1: CHAPTER 17 (http://www3.alpa.org/publications/Flying_The_Line_1/ftl1Chapter17.html)

[Lrhill]

Moon,

Oh, we were "actual" F/Es by technical definition. We just weren't what we called professional flight engineers (PFE) or F/E crewmen with no pilot credentials or aspirations who did that as a life's work. The PFE commonly began life as a mechanic and were worth their weight in gold, particularly in the non-sked biz where you went places not having your own MTC personnel. If they didn't do actual repairs, they were valuable in supervising the repairs by whatever MTC people showed up to do needed work.

As for "flexible rules", they aren't. The position is defined and requires dedicated training and an FAA F/E license with recip, TP or TJ ratings. For us pilot/F/Es who hired on with carriers operating 3-crew airplanes (and intending a multi-decade career with said carrier), we took positions as demanded by manning requirements...and allowed by seniority...with the expectation of moving to a "window" seat in due course. Overall circumstances dictated when.

Not sure about the Caravelle. I asked the same question in a Caravelle thread but no one answered it.

Back prior to the early 1970's, you had to have a certain number of years of experience as an A & P before you could take the F/E written test. At sometime after deregulation, that requirement was dropped. When I was hired by the Flying Tigers in 1978, I had already taken pasted the FEJ written and was trained as a DC-8 FE and a year later as a B-747, FE. When I was hired I already had my ATP and about 6,000 hours as a pilot but, with no jet turbine experience. As I gained seniority, I flew as copilot on the 727 and 747, and 4 years later as Captain on the 727. I spent 25 years as captain on most of FedEx's aircraft. I had a friend who retired as a Tiger 747 captain. He was hired as a mechanic's helper, uncertified. He asked a CAA inspector what he needed to do to take the FE written. He told him 2 years experience as a mechanic and asked him how long he had been working for Flying Tigers. He said 3 years. The inspector signed him off to take the written, even though he was not an A&P. He flew as engineer for Tigers, who later sent any engineers, who wanted to become a pilot, to a local FBO to get their commercial instrument certificates. He was a very lucky man.

[aterpster]

Back prior to the early 1970's, you had to have a certain number of years of experience as an A & P before you could take the F/E written test.

I beg to differ. In the 1963-70 time frame professional F/Es were no longer hired at the majors. Pilots were hired to eventually be pilots, but their first assignment was as F/E. It was a longer than pilot courses, and included taking the FAA F/E written. I knew many of these fellows, none of whom were A&Ps.

I dodged this by fate. I was in the first class at TWA on January 13, 1964, that were made second officers (the type that rode the jump seat to be the third pilot until the FEIA types were phased out.) The 110 or so hired prior to me (Oct 63 to class prior to me) were all non-A&P pilots who were trained as Connie F/Es.