BNE fog this evening.

[hotnhigh]

YBBN 071000Z 29004KT 0200 FG 17/17 Q1014

Will the Brisbane Airports chief front the media tomorrow morning and say something along the lines " gee the fog was thick! " ( like the last time Brisbane had fog) and avoid the real question about why the airport body continually fails to provide facilities when such conditions exist in Brisbane. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[CurtainTwitcher]

Link to TTF/TAF history (http://www.ogimet.com/display_metars2.php?lang=en&lugar=ybbn&tipo=ALL&ord=REV&nil=SI&fmt=html&ano=2017&mes=07&day=06&hora=00&anof=2017&mesf=07&dayf=07&horaf=12&minf=59&send=send).

[Capt Fathom]

Stop banging your head hotnhigh. It will do you no good!
Besides, who cares?

[neville_nobody]

Who Cares??

Well the question remains why does Australia have such expensive airports to use yet do not even have all weather capability. Given that many 3rd World countries have better aviation infrastructure than we do why do we pay so much?

Money aside it is also a serious safety issue. What are they waiting for? An accident followed by an ATSB crash investigation suggetion they should install technology that was available in the 1960s?

The problem is that the airlines wear all the cost of the airports lack of facilities so there is no incentive to upgrade.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Yea, cause BNE has thick fog in the early evenings sooo often.

[neville_nobody]

Yea, cause BNE has thick fog in the early evenings sooo often.

Well if thats the case then airports can compensate the airlines because it never happens apparantly. One little incident like this will change their thinking very rapidly!!

[topend3]

YPPH will be CAT 3 soon they don't have fog hardly ever either

[chuboy]

Enjoyed the banter on the tower frequency all the same :)

On a more serious note the lack of nearby alternates is a bit concerning, CG filled up pretty quick with the China Airlines heavy having to wait on the taxiway with nowhere else nearby to go. Wellcamp was fogged in as well even if you were thinking of using it. Emirates A380 had to go to Melbourne. I think Sunshine Coast and Hervey Bay filled up as well.

End result we saw a Virgin make two approaches and a few orbits before going straight to Rocky, can you track via SU "no we require direct RK due fuel" :uhoh:

Yes this is the first time in many people's memory that Brisbane has fogged over at night but we do get it in the mornings from time to time and its the same story, lots of internationals looking for somewhere to divert. A bit of a joke really.

I do recall a year or two back a Qantas 747 had to divert from BNE due to the usual morning fog getting the better of our state-of-the-art CAT I approaches, ironically they diverted to Gold Coast which doesn't even have an ILS :{

[get_over_it]

I do recall a year or two back a Qantas 747 had to divert from BNE due to the usual morning fog getting the better of our state-of-the-art CAT I approaches, ironically they diverted to Gold Coast which doesn't even have an ILS :{
Hardly ironic. Just indicates that the fog in SE Queensland is isolated.

[maggot]

Yeah pretty unusual for that time of night. Seems quite clear now eh

[hotnhigh]

Your right capt fathom. Why worry. It's only 2016 and the airport has its priorities right in charging $25 for the first hour when you park the car, theres plenty of room for crispy Kreme to expand and the second runway will be available in the next decade. Think of the shareholders dilemas for god sake.
Why have the facilities, that were first developed in the 1960s, available to airlines in Brisbane today?
It's a tough job running an airport. ��

[coaldemon]

Have dealt with quite a few Airports in Australia on this one. None want to if they can get away with it due to the cost. Adelaide is the same as Brisbane. It has a couple more days a year of Fog and has had a couple of high profile Fog related incidents but still has nothing better than CAT I. (Which doesn't stop some airlines going all the way to rollout if you have ever sat at the threshold on a murky day).
Even Perth was not keen to spend the money but as a remote airfield in effect for wide bodies there was no choice.
For an Airport Car parks are pure revenue and ILS's are pure cost. Avoid them as much as possible and hope RNP AR CAT III comes quickly.

[By George]

Well, we might have 3rd World CAT 1 ILS but I noticed we now have 'Transgender' toilets in the Qantas Terminal. Dying to have a peek inside but not sure of the qualifications for entry.

[BPA]

Always thought the aircraft got in the way of the car parks and shops.

What Australia can learn from the world's best airports - RN - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-08/what-australia-can-learn-from-the-worlds-best-airports/8688464?smid=Page:%20ABC%20News-Facebook_Organic&WT.tsrc=Facebook_Organic&sf96303786=1)

[CurtainTwitcher]

Dying to have a peek inside but not sure of the qualifications for entry.
Will you be "packing heat"?"

[Slippery_Pete]

Had those two 737s crashed at Mildura, you can bet Australia's capital cities would all now have cat 3. It was just a miracle they both landed safely.

This is how we do business in Australia - ignore a known problem until something big goes wrong, conduct an inquiry at huge expense, everyone scurries to the cracks like cockroaches in the hope of avoiding any liability, report gets released, then we implement a cheap, half arsed, slow solution - not to fix the problem, but to avoid future liability if it happens again.

This (no expenditure in safety infrastructure) is what happens when you privatise airports. Reap/sow.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Funny, don't remember too many Government provided Cat III ILS's being sold off with the airports when they were privatised. Obviously bad weather only started to happen after the cheques were cashed.

[Slippery_Pete]

The privatisation comment does not relate to Cat 3.

It relates to the fact that we now have close to triple the air traffic, and the same or less infrastructure. With an increase in air travel should come an equal investment in facilities.

Ask YBBN airport if they'd prefer to build a Cat 3 ILS or more shops inside the terminal.

[wondrousbitofrough]

Ask yourself why the majority of viewers of this thread don't have central heating, or double glazing in their homes. Its simply because for most of the year it's not needed.

[777Nine]

But it's not going affect my safety if I don't have central heating or double glazing.

Does anyone know the capital cost of Cat.III?

[neville_nobody]

Ask yourself why the majority of viewers of this thread don't have central heating, or double glazing in their homes. Its simply because for most of the year it's not needed.

Except they are willing to cop the economic cost of not having those items. Ill bet if electricity prices were to become exorbinately high then double glazing, personal generators/battery systems will become the norm.
The problem at the moment is that unlike your house there is no economic cost to airports in providing woeful aviation facilities.

IF Brisbane airport had to pay the full economic cost of the fog last night a CAT III system would have been built years ago.

It would make for an interesting study for someone to figure out the true economic cost to Airlines from over the world the lack of Aviation infrastructure in this country. I would also include the lack of viable alternates in that as well.

Melbourne Airport were the only ones to proactively build low visability facilities, SYD and PER were embarrassed and/or pressured into it

[hotnhigh]

Ask yourself why those questions are never asked of the owners of Australian airports by so called journalists.
It's ok the news (?) via the wireless, reported there was only 30 diversions and 80 flight cancellations last night. Happy days.

[sucati]

https://higginsstormchasing.com/rare-phenomenon-covers-south-east-qld-brisbane-city-2/

[Walking Ballast]

On the other side of the great BNE fogging…..

Mrs Ballast drove across to YSCB (about an hour trip one way) to take 2 sons flying to BNE to visit relatives for the school holidays. Delivered Masters 12 and 15 to the flight, waved good bye and headed to the shops for a few things that are harder to come by in the rural areas and returns home. Planning a movie night and dinner.

After 2 hours makes mention, “gee, I haven’t heard from the boys, unusual, they usually call when they get there” then right on que….. phone rings.

The relatives “the airport is closed and the plane is circling, not sure what is going on….”

We jump on FlightRadar to see the boys flight had completed a few long orbits over BNE and was now abeam Walcha tracking south…..oh, this can’t be good….and a procession of a/c following….. airspace over BNE like a ghost town.

Watched as they made one orbit in the Hunter Valley and then turned for YSSY.

Mrs Ballast hit panicked mother mode within 2.5 nano seconds……

Several tense phone calls and Internet searches we are in the car driving to Sydney (2.5 hours’ drive away) to find Masters 12 and 15. Now agitated Mrs Ballast, in stressed Mother mode, was willing the other road users out of our way, and (as one would expect) worried about junior Ballasts.

Long story short – arrive Mascot Domestic, children fine, as expected on the tools of the devil - social media devices - and not a care in the world, “Hi mum, what are you doing here…….” Nothing more than a bit tired after a 5 hour jaunt. Virgin find us accommodation, tell us to wait for a call or text for alternatives and by 1am we are fast asleep.

We took a punt and returned to Domestic @0600 pre-coffee and were lucky to find the next to last seats heading to YBNA where said relatives drove from BNE down to pick up boys.

Speaking to a few of the more unlucky passengers that were behind us, sounds like many will still be in Sydney tonight waiting for flights or other ways to get home.

While it has been a long 24 hrs, 590km drive, 5 hours sleep, cursing everything Sydney – and $200 worth of parking!! Everyone is where they are supposed to be.

Have to also mention, young lady from the cabin crew on the flight, Cassandra, :D:D:ok::ok: went over and above what could ever be expected to assist us and Master 12 and 15 – including offers for the boys to use her personal mobile phone for contact and letting us know what was going on 3 times in the space of 90 minutes while we were still on-route, and Cassandra assisted with arranging accommodation.

We know that the flight also had quite a few unaccompanied minors, school holidays and all – not sure what happens in these cases with those children, I assume someone from the airline will stay with the children o/night in accommodation and The Lounge?

I am betting not everyone would have been in the same position as us and able to drive up and be there.

Just out of interest, anyone here have any ideas what the Policy is for such cases?

[tomcat264]

YPPH will be CAT 3 soon they don't have fog hardly ever either
Often enough or it wouldnt be happening

[tomcat264]

Enjoyed the banter on the tower frequency all the same :)

On a more serious note the lack of nearby alternates is a bit concerning, CG filled up pretty quick with the China Airlines heavy having to wait on the taxiway with nowhere else nearby to go. Wellcamp was fogged in as well even if you were thinking of using it. Emirates A380 had to go to Melbourne. I think Sunshine Coast and Hervey Bay filled up as well.

End result we saw a Virgin make two approaches and a few orbits before going straight to Rocky, can you track via SU "no we require direct RK due fuel" :uhoh:

Yes this is the first time in many people's memory that Brisbane has fogged over at night but we do get it in the mornings from time to time and its the same story, lots of internationals looking for somewhere to divert. A bit of a joke really.

I do recall a year or two back a Qantas 747 had to divert from BNE due to the usual morning fog getting the better of our state-of-the-art CAT I approaches, ironically they diverted to Gold Coast which doesn't even have an ILS :{
Just because low vis ops in BNE doesnt mean there is low vis in GC

[Piltdown Man]

Someone asked about the cost. Assuming the there is nothing wrong with the topology of the place and the ILS signal is of high enough quality the big ticket items are runway lighting, standby generators and signal monitors and training. So we are taking about a few million, not a lot of money. And then you have to ask, how many operators will be able to use such a system? Also, how often would the system be used? CAT III for Australia is a bit like buying snowploughs for Heathrow. They spent £4-5 M on equipment a few years ago and I don't think they have used it yet.

PM

[tomcat264]

But it's not going affect my safety if I don't have central heating or double glazing.

Does anyone know the capital cost of Cat.III?
It will vary between airports. Its not just the CATIII ILS but also CATIII approach lighting, CATIII runway lighting & CATIII taxiway lighting and an up graded power supply to power all those lights. Without naming an airport but the cost is $36 million for a one particular airport in Australia

[Piltdown Man]

That was a government job or I'm in the wrong industry - or both!

PM

[compressor stall]

Well it cost $6 million and 18 months to install two roundabouts near my place, so $36 million for all that infrastructure is about "right". :mad:

[chuboy]

Just because low vis ops in BNE doesnt mean there is low vis in GC

Realise that and it's just as well. It was more a remark about the standard of infrastructure in Aus. Can't be many airports in the world handling heavy RPT without an ILS.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Don't forget that you have to pay Airservices to maintain the ILS, as they are responsible for navaids in Australia.

[Capn Bloggs]

Does anyone know the capital cost of Cat.III?
Dunno exactly, but watching what's been going on at YPPH for the last couple of years, I'd a say a sh!tload. But then again, in the big scheme of things...

[Keg]

It will vary between airports. Its not just the CATIII ILS but also CATIII approach lighting, CATIII runway lighting & CATIII taxiway lighting and an up graded power supply to power all those lights. Without naming an airport but the cost is $36 million for a one particular airport in Australia

It depends on what needs to be done. I know that one of the issues PER had is that all the lights for the entire airport were wired through the old control tower. So when they wanted to expand the apron (and planning the CAT III further down the track) the actual cost was a truck load more than would normally be the case because of the untangling and re routing that needed to be done.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Don't forget that you have to pay Airservices to maintain it, as they are responsible for navaids in Australia.

That is a diminishing burden as aids are phased out.

Another interesting anecdote from someone who was recently at the Boeing factory was they would like to see 100% autoland with GLS as SOP from 2020 onwards, presumably with CAT III as standard.
I can't vouch for the credibility of the anecdote, but a quick google search for boeing GLS autoland gives lots of hits, including an FAA 2014 GBAS progress report (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/parc/parc_reco/media/2014/140424_PARCGBASReportRecs.pdf). The airports would be desperate to avoiding having to spend the money on a conventional ILS with such a tantalizing possibility so near.

[Capn Bloggs]

The airports would be desperate to avoiding having to spend the money on a conventional ILS
Does the ILS itself cost a lot? It seems to me most of the work (maybe not the cost) is in the airport facilities, which would also be required for Cat 3 GLS.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Does the ILS itself cost a lot?
I don't know, however, the FAA report does do a cost benefit analysis. I suspect, the difference is that a single GBAS installation is required to do a ~20nm radius area. This limits the expense of each physical ILS installation. Ongoing calibration requirements & costs of ILS vs GLS are covered in the FAA report, page 9:

The approach information integrity in GBAS is digital and unchanging, unlike the analog signal from ILS which can change over time with component aging, and changes in the local environment through urbanization and construction. ILS requires regular flight inspection to ensure the approach path is repeatable and accurate. Once a GLS approach is defined and verified, its position does not change. Therefore, the flight inspection requirement (and cost) is reduced to approximately 50% of the ILS flight time requirement. For GLS, the requirement is 2.5 hours per station, 1.5 hours per approach (IAH example – 6 approaches with 11.5 hours total), ILS requires 10 hours per approach (equating to 60 hours for the IAH example). Annual maintenance/operations cost of GBAS for all runways is estimated at $75,000 whereas ILS operations cost per runway is over $90,000 (based on a 2010 GBAS program office assessment). For an airport like Houston with 6 ILS systems this amounts to $540,000 for ILS ops cost versus $75,000 for GBAS.

[Slippery_Pete]

ILS in Wagga cost $1.6m.

And that's for a brand new installation on a runway that's never had an ILS.

Surely the diversions the other night alone cost the airlines $1.6m - in extra fuel, crew delays, aircraft delays/scheduling, and pax accommodation and arrangements.

[neville_nobody]

Surely the diversions the other night alone cost the airlines $1.6m - in extra fuel, crew delays, aircraft delays/scheduling, and pax accommodation and arrangements.

Mostly likely and it cost BNE airport $0. And they still got all their landing fees when everyone eventually got there the next day.

There is also no point in comparing ILS installations in Australia with the US, as the Australian Standard is different and much more expensive. I'm sure someone who has expertise in that field could elaborate.

Whilst GLS would fantastic everywhere the reliability of it for CAT III Ops is yet to be proven. Sydney Airport's installation has been plagued with interference and various tech issues in the past.

[sunnySA]

Mostly likely and it cost BNE airport $0.
Most likely they made money with all the extra parking fees.

[C441]

Most likely they made money with all the extra parking fees.

Not this time. Quite a few departures made it out so in the end the tarmac in Brissy was almost empty. I'm glad I wasn't trying to commute out of Brissy yesterday. No aircraft until the first arrivals from elsewhere and very few spare seats all day.

[underfire]

Currently, there is no CAT III GBAS for commercial use. While the broadcast is good for CAT III, it still has not been certified for general use. CAT III GBAS is in use in some military operations.

There is no CAT III RNP AR. RNP is 250 HAT.

When looking at ILS vs GBAS, we are using the following cost estimates, although it certainly varies per location:

Typically, the cost for an ILS per runway end is around $500,000, with about $50,000 per year in operating costs. ( per CT, I guess the $75,000 is where the FAA is...)

The cost for a GBAS system, itself is about $1.5 million, with another $1 million for installation and validation exercises, for up to 23 runway ends. Annual costs were about $50,000 per year for the entire system.

It can also handle ARR and DEP from same runway end. ILS cannot do ARR and DEP from same end.

The bottom line is that with 4 runways ends, ILS and GBAS are about equal in cost to install. Annual costs escalate rapidly with ILS.

GBAS is a very accurate GPS correction that broadcast as a signal to the ac, and can be repeated to get distance. Unlike ILS beams, there are no issues with multiplex from structures or reflectivity from ac on the ground or in the air.

A GBAS system can broadcast multiple displaced threshold solutions for each runway end. This can be used for wake mitigation strategies. (or simply manage displaced thresholds) ILS does not have this capability.

We have GBAS broadcasts that include a turn to final. That is in validation, as well as the other solutions such as RNP AR transitions to GBAS final.. No way an ILS beams could include a turn, or an acceptable transition from RNP to ILS final.

What I find interesting is that Smartpath is 50% owned by ASA. I would think that GBAS would be all over AUS, go figure.

[Capt Fathom]

When looking at ILS vs GBAS, we are using the following cost estimate

Who is we?

[Slippery_Pete]

Mostly likely and it cost BNE airport $0.

Exactly. Privatised airports have no incentive to invest in ILS installations. Or in fact anything to improve safety or reliability. Just more car parks and more shops.

Selling off public assets is a short term money grab with a terrible, permanent legacy.

Until there's a big prang, nothing will change. Mildura was the wake up call no-one is heeding.

[wheels_down]

Airlines should start taking these Airports to court for taking them for a ride. There has been small whispers from QF/VA in regards to the lack of infrastructure in this country but they appear to be very selective with commentary.

The only one with balls so far was Tiger Airways a few years back. Took Sydney Airport to court for the complete lack of facilities on offer for what they were paying to the Airport, and they won the case. The point was made why are we paying for such s*** facilities with complete lack of support from Sydney Airport Management, when we pay less in HKG and get exceptional facilities.

[Icarus2001]

Selling off public assets is a short term money grab with a terrible, permanent legacy.

I completely agree. One small point, they are leased from the federal government. They are generally fifty year leases. Perhaps in a few years there should be a push to take them back..."BRING THEM HOME"

https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/airport/airport_economic_regulation/economic_regulation.aspx

[tfx]

Yerzz. Well, I can recall going down to Eaglefarm one morning 0200 or so and immediately going home - below take-off minimums and certain to remain so for many hours. Secondary consideration, no take-off alternate due fog S to Sydney N to Townsville and W to Alice. ILS - none of any kind at Townsville until the new boys arrived c. 1989. Are we alone in this? LHR a few years back, temps around zero and a bit of a shower... they have THREE de-icing trucks on the airport. So, hundreds of aircraft overnighted their pax. We gave up at midnight and finished up in some magic little pub up the Thames valley somewhere which I have been searching for ever since, and

[fujii]

Unlike ILS beams, there are no issues with multiplex...

That would be multipath.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Privatised airports have no incentive to invest in ILS installations

What makes you think that the government would have any more incentive. The government tried to make them into businesses (in the form of a GBE ie FAC), couldn't manage it, so leased them off. The government has been pretty woeful at running anything so far.