So did you ever get lost ?

[Fonsini]

I mean totally, absolutely, no radar vectors, no VOR, no comms, no fix and one eye on the fuel gauge lost ?

Question prompted by my recent research into this tragic loss:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

[Mogwi]

I mean totally, absolutely, no radar vectors, no VOR, no comms, no fix and one eye on the fuel gauge lost ?

Question prompted by my recent research into this tragic loss:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

You are only lost if you THINK you know where you are; otherwise you are uncertain of position!

[KPax]

Not me, RCC at Pitreavie we get a call that a PA28 on delivery is lost over the Atlantic. Scramble the Nimrod (remember them) from Kinloss no joy. Pilot eventually calls visual with land, definitely the west coast of Scotland he says. Pilot was found in the Sahara with his aircraft.

[Philoctetes]

On my final nav test in a JP with only a radio and true bearings to navigate with at 25000ft over 8/8 cloud.
The tester just remained mute, so I declared an emergency, got a fix and DR'ed back to base.
I was passed with the dry comment about not being the first aviator to be totally lost!!
Unforecast jet stream the reason!

[Danny42C]

"Please, Sir, I'm not lost - it's just that I don't know where I am !"

[gzornenplatz]

My first instructional trip at Valley. High level to Chiv, Low level back up the Welsh border to Valley. It became obvious that stude was unaware of his whereabouts somewhere Ludlow when we passed two ENORMOUS masts. I tried to help: "Look for features unique in elevation" Silence, then "Pylons" said he. 630 feet high. I learnt early about students.

[Herod]

Old Native American saying "You are not lost. It is the place you are looking for that is lost"

[Pontius Navigator]

After some manoeuvring QFI asks student out of Valley, "OK, where are we?"

"Over my girlfriend's house"

"Where's that then?"

"I'm not telling You"

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

"What do all the crewmen on 72 Sqn have in common?"

"They've all been flying with D*** B***** when it's the first time he's ever been lost..."

[Tankertrashnav]

I seem to remember the motto on the crest of nav school when I was there was "Man is Not Lost".

Yeah, right!

French ATC to Victor, heading South

"Confirm you are 'eading for Nice?"

Me, after quick look at H2S screen

Erm, come 30 degrees port captain!

Well all those flipping headlands looked the same on radar!

[reynoldsno1]

Mid 70's. 0200 hrs. 1000ft above the Mediterranean. Surface surveillance. Intermittent radar, random tracks tactics. Got a radar fix as we descended at about 2200 the previous day. Loran is a fickle friend - one line since about 2300. We are setting up to side scan the Egyptian coast and the Soviet anchorage at Sallum - latest int is that there are 12+ vessels there. I brief radar operator to give me a fix off the headland.
Switch on - scanitty, scannity, scan. Switch off. Good radar fix - Nav system within 2nm, and .... no contacts. Eh? Turn round, do it again ..... no contacts. Something is not quite right here ... continue west.
Co-pilot then says he has the lights of a village on the coast to port. Err, we're meant to be at least 25nm from the coast. I visit the flight deck - there are the lights of a largish city on the coast to port. Turn right I say, descend to 500ft and head north sharpish. This buys me some time to look at the topo - it has to be Tobruk, and there is a headland bearing a marked resemblance to the one at Sallum. I readjust the radar fix.
We turn the radar on again south of Crete - not too bad but turning east and a few more radar fixes establishes a serious ground speed input error. We can't complete the job and go home early - using airplot. Beer for breakfast.

[Fonsini]

I confess to being something of a Larson fan, and this came to mind, click for the larger image.

2491

[Wander00]

Final nav test at valley in Aunty Betty's Fun Jet. Low level phase looking for a small railway station near the Wash ranges. Getting closer and closer to ToT. Starting to sweat and to mutter under my breath. From the back seat "You'll see more at 200 feet than 50". Came up a "few" feet, and there it was and only + 1 second on target. Thanks M...S... (had a large Alsatian, would let people into the house but not out again)

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah, Reynolds, same period, same sea, opposite coast, same targets.

Also intermittent radar - truly intermittent. It kept cutting out. Also choice of nav kit IIRC, Doppler or computer but not both.

So we eases in for Mk 1 eyeball. Nowt. Went up the front and practically flying along the coast at Malaga, I remember a man walking a dog onthe beach, about 5-6 am.

Still we surprised our target approaching radar off from the north. Caught them with lots of plates open on.deck.

[Danny42C]

Chistopher Columbus

Didn't know where he was going when he set off.
Didn't know where he was when he got there.
Didn't know where he'd been when he got back.

Wherefore Christopher Columbus is known as the "Great Navigator".
[Trad.]

[Cows getting bigger]

I'm still looking for Grafham Water. My logbook says I took-off in a JP5 at 1015hrs on 10 Oct 1986. :)

[MPN11]

I'm still looking for Grafham Water. My logbook says I took-off in a JP5 at 1015hrs on 10 Oct 1986. :)

Big wet thing near the former Midland Radar/North Luffenham. Unmissable (or not, clearly!!)

Did your JP have floats? Waiting for Spazsinbad to produce the photo :)

[Two's in]

Following a railway line in southern Germany headed N-S, forgot to look outside for a while and when I did, no railway line. Took some significant back tracking to see where it had turned 90 degrees and entered a very long tunnel. So back to the old adage, I wasn't lost because I knew I was in Germany, probably Bavaria, hadn't yet crossed the Alps, so I had a good stair rail check feature. Lost, certainly not - did I know where I was - not in the slightest.

[albatross]

I have never been lost!
I have, however, operated overhead unfamiliar terrain for considerable periods of time.
I think Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett said..."I have never been lost..I have been dreadful confused for a month or two!"

[Pontius Navigator]

Big wet thing near the former Midland Radar/North Luffenham. Unmissable (or not, clearly!!)

Did your JP have floats? Waiting for Spazsinbad to produce the photo :)

Ah,, that would explain it, he was obviously looking in Cambridgeshire when he should have been looking in Rutland.

[MPN11]

No wonder my Navigation was cr@p :)

[Pom Pax]

Ah,, that would explain it, he was obviously looking in Cambridgeshire when he should have been looking in Rutland.
His map was too up-to-date, he should have been searching in Hunts not Cambs.
Fitzwilliam country not Cottesmore country.

[Cows getting bigger]

"You’ve never been lost until you’ve been lost at Mach 3."
~.Paul F. Crickmore, SR-71 test pilot

[Pontius Navigator]

Copilot, out of Aden, "nav, what's that island down* on the right"

"Africa"

*Bad news if it wasn't down"

[BEagle]

Before the days of FMS in the FunBus, if off-airways and out of ground-based navaids, one relied on the skill of the directional consultant...

One of who was the late 'Admiral Zig-Zag' (RIP). Thoroughly nice chap, whose nickname resulted from an exchange tour as whatever they call flight commanders at BRNC Dartmouth....but his heading changes were often rather large, shortly followed by equally large corrections in the opposite direction. In a second aircraft we once followed the Admiral from ASI, whereupon our nav announced that we were heading 30 deg in the wrong direction - it was later discovered that the Admiral had fat-fingered the next waypoint and it hadn't been cross-checked.... So not all his fault that time.

As one captain once said after a flight with the Admiral "Doesn't he know a number smaller than 20?"

So on a double-crewed jaunt to the Pacific, it was agreed that the first tourist would navigate from McClellan to Hickam, while the Admiral would navigate back - on the grounds that America was a bigger target than Hawaii, so he'd probably be able to find it.

But, as I say, a really nice chap - and one of the few Flt Cdrs honest enough to admit that his professional skills weren't perhaps the best.

[beardy]

I had a flight commander who when a Vulcan navigator directed an internal aids approach to St Mawgan, he thought. The French took it differently. "Lost in France" by, was it Bonnie Tyler, was often sung in his presence.

[ICM]

Night bomber ops in 1940/41 record a number of occasions on which, at night and in or over weather, crews became very palpably lost. The tasks facing crew of that era, with the minimal kit they had, sometimes make me shudder. The most egregious example of which I'm aware has to be the Whitley crew from 10 Sqn that headed out for a target in the Ruhr in late May 1940, and who suffered a lightning strike outbound. They could not identify a legitimate target in the industrial haze and searchlight glare - remember, they were given point targets at that time, well before area bombing became the norm. They turned back west to head for the designated 'last resort' target, the airfield at Flushing. They finally got a glimpse of an airfield with a lit flare path, dropped bombs, and headed home to Yorkshire. Some later calculations suggested the airfield would have been Schipol. In fact, as became clear within a few hours, they had bombed RAF Bassingbourn, near Cambridge. The time and distance aspects of that night's work make one wonder where that aircraft really went after the lightning strike. (The Nav was exonerated in the subsequent Inquiry, the pilot was demoted to 2nd Pilot, and both were back on Ops in days. Very little damage was done, causing the Air Staff to wonder a little about the 250lb bombs then in use.)

[beardy]

I recall 'Fate is the Hunter' has a very cautionary tale about using magnetic heading and distance in areas where variation changes rapidly and significantly over short distances. Luckily the survivors were found by reflying the route as reported rather than drawing it on a chart.

[sharpend]

I have far too many stories to tell about getting lost :)

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Does being temporarily uncertain of ones position count as being lost ?

I guess my request for a QDM would negate the first question.........

NEO

[Wander00]

There was a stude on my Flying Scholarship Course at Sywell in 1961 who allegedly set course on his landaway in an Auster using the little domed fuel gauge in front of the cockpit as a "compass". I think he eventually landed at Watton and wad surrounded by RAFP on arrival. He went on to be a senior and respected Canberra operator

[tonker]

I took a PA38 from Cardiff to Halfpenny Green with another instructor. After about 20'seconds in the cruise we both became bored and decided to fly there purely using the rudder.

After about 20 minutes of self congratulations on our expert further effects aviating, it dawned on us we hadn't a clue where we were. We were shortly joined by a Gazelle, complete with angry door gunner.

Now neither of us were experts on military communications, but we both agreed it wasn't "Hi chaps, fancy a look around our new Hereford base"!

[Pontius Navigator]

Question, particularly for pilots.

You are planning a route at about 1000-1500 feet. There is a TV mast some 1700 feet en route. The weather is potentially Midlands poor.

How do you plan your route in relation to that mast?

[ex-fast-jets]

Plan to fly straight at it.

That way, you are sure to miss it!!

[BEagle]

Question, particularly for pilots.

You are planning a route at about 1000-1500 feet. There is a TV mast some 1700 feet en route. The weather is potentially Midlands poor.

How do you plan your route in relation to that mast?

Having thought long and hard about the question, my considered opinion is that I would plan a suitable route to avoid the mast....:rolleyes:

WTF else would anyone do?

[Fareastdriver]

I recall 'Fate is the Hunter' has a very cautionary tale about using magnetic heading and distance in areas where variation changes rapidly

Apparently there are still a few B17s, B24s and other USAAC aircraft still in the Arctic somewhere.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, I ask as that was my plan but my very green driver's airframe, a pilot officer to boot, had planned the route before he was allocated a nav to hold his hand in the Chippie.
I was under enthused by his plan to use it as a waypoint.

I have some sympathy for BomberH's plan but suggest that is more appropriate for a navigator :)

[scorpion63]

Enough said!

[Stupidbutsaveable]

"What do all the crewmen on 72 Sqn have in common?"

"They've all been flying with D*** B***** when it's the first time he's ever been lost..."

To be fair; back seat of an F4 to a Wessex everywhere at 50' was a different game; and the banter was pretty harsh. I would rather salute the skills of the crewmen who could step in and give a perfect tactical talk-on to the exact field whilst looking 90deg off axis. Gentlemen may be a stretch; scholars of the art for sure.

[sitigeltfel]

A few "directionally challenged" examples here...

Foreign Aircraft in Ireland 1939 - 1945 (http://www.ww2irishaviation.com/)

[birdstrike]

Finningley based JP5 nav training sortie back in the 80's. Having flown eastwards through the Lichfield corridor ATC helpfully gave us a cloudbreak to VMC below. Student (and I) didn't monitor our single DME and happily turned north to follow the A1 back to base. Only after a few miles did we realise that the road signs passing below were blue and not green - yep, we were following the M1 rather than the A1. No harm done but a good learning exercise all round.

[BEagle]

...my very green driver's (sic :rolleyes:) airframe, a pilot officer to boot, had planned the route before he was allocated a nav to hold his hand in the Chippie...

Must have been a useless git if he needed a talking TACAN in the back of a 90KIAS Chipmunk.....:hmm:

[Fonsini]

Directional Consultant, Talking Tacan, 500lbs of wasted fuel space.

RAF navs must have some broad shoulders :}

[Herod]

I'm not biased. I have nothing against navigators. I just wouldn't let my daughter marry one.

[50+Ray]

But 42 years ago I did marry a Navigator's daughter.......

[MPN11]

But 42 years ago I did marry a Navigator's daughter.......Likewise, but only 37 years ago! :)

[Fareastdriver]

we realise that the road signs passing below were blue and not green

We had a visit by some Armee de l'Air helicopters to our squadron at Odiham. They were fine until they couldn't find these large canals on their maps.

(Blue= motorways in UK; canals on the continent.)

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Remember an F-111 on it's way to do a flypast at Barton, somehow ended it doing it at Manchester

[KenV]

Lost? Never. Mighty confused? A few times. Worst instance was flying P-3 from Adak, Alaska to Moffet Field, California. Lost our inertials early in the flight and solid high level overcast prevented celestial updates. When we got within radar range of land we found ourselves off the coast of Canada. Busted their ADIZ, but did not get intercepted. Made it to Moffet without incident.

Next worst instance was flying F/A-18 back to mother at night. I wasn't technically "lost", but the ship was steaming EMCON and I lost my GPS and had no idea how to find her. Then I remembered recently watching Apollo 13 and Jim Lovell's account in that movie of trying to find his carrier in the dark after he lost all his electricals in has ancient Banshee, including his radios, instruments, and cockpit lighting. Hornets are very reliable and have back ups to their back ups, so it took a lot of circuit breaker pulling to totally darken the cockpit. But I eventually worked it out and my eyes dark adapted. Sure enough, I spotted the bioluminescent glow of the carrier's wake, just like Jim Lovell. Thanks, Jim.

[Lonewolf_50]

Chistopher Columbus
Didn't know where he was going when he set off.
Didn't know where he was when he got there.
Didn't know where he'd been when he got back.
Wherefore Christopher Columbus is known as the "Great Navigator".
[Trad.] Our tradition was that Ferdinand Magellan was "the great navigator" for having circumcised the globe. :8 The sarcastic earning of that moniker indicated navigation of less than great quality. Magellan was the call sign assigned to one of my squadron mates who flew to Bimini rather than Andros Island for an ASW exercise.


His defense, per the standard, was that "we weren't lost, but we were temporarily disoriented -- and then fuel state became a problem."

[Pontius Navigator]

Landing at the wrong airfield is something done by many. An early F111 visited Cottesmore to show off the aircraft we hoped to buy vice TSR2.

It made its approach from the wrong direction: "You put Wittering in the system and it goes to Wittering"

Reminds me, I also approached Gaydon from the wrong direction in The Lanc but that is a different story - someone had hidden the M1.

[flown-it]

15 years RN Observer before becoming a professional pilot. First solo x-country in a PA-28 go 30 miles from A-B and call up for help. Damn this steering and driving at the same time is only for supermen! Forward 48 years and with synthetic vision and magic FMCS it's all so ho-hum these days!
Go back to 1963. Basic nav training at Hal Far, Malta. Low level up the west coast then fix on South West corner of Gozo. Clockwise out to the west using DR nav. Must find and apply 3 new winds. Did so and actually arrived back on top, on time. Am I good or what? What! Got 16%! I had applied all the winds reciprocally!

[[email protected]]

Never forget that navigator is an anagram of vaginarot:)

[Lonewolf_50]

@crab:
As a helo pilot in the USN, we never had navs in our squadrons.
This was good for morale. *ducks*

[[email protected]]

Navs were OK, you just had to treat them like computers and punch the information in:)

[reynoldsno1]

Our tradition was that Ferdinand Magellan was "the great navigator" for having circumcised the globe.
Of course, he didn't quite do that - got stopped a bit short in the Philippines ...

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember going the wrong way at Goose. As we approached the building the Canuk base was on the right. After my quota of Bacardi I had forgotten we had gone around the back before going in. On leaving I turned left.

Heading for some lights I ended up at the wrong end of the base. Checking North I retraced my steps along the taxiway and took a short cut through the tanker NLZ. At one point a truck approached but turned away.

Either my green lounge suit rendered me invisible or they thought the paperwork of picking up another limey drunk was not worth it.

[goudie]

Good job it wasn't in the winter PN or at least I hope so, it were bluddy cold there.

[Schnowzer]

I remember my very first Nav groundschool lesson on the JP at Linton. Jag Mate instructor walked in and said; "I was lost once....or was I a second late?🤔"

Walked out, that was the end of lesson one!

[Danny42C]

'Twas in ATC at Leeming late '60s. Preston Centre (as was) on blower in state of high dudgeon. There is a JP doing aeros in the middle of the airway (Amber "?") ... Can't contact him ... Have had to stop takeoffs at Manchester ... Is he one of yours ?

Called suspect. "Get a Practice Fix !" - Our Bloggs all right - he'd put his FL on his compass instead of his hdg - and flown that !

Red faces all round .....

[Pontius Navigator]

Good job it wasn't in the winter PN or at least I hope so, it were bluddy cold there.

Well it weren't high summer. I guess with wind chill it was pretty close to zero. The real fun was the following day when the skipper got lost.

We had crewed in, door closed, ready to taxy when the skipper barfed in the potter's head set bag. I had thoughtfully removed his SD Hat first. The door was opened and bag jettisoned.

We then departed. The plotter, guesting on our Crew, had decided on a novel route entering UK via London rather than Scottish. When the skipper woke up approaching 8 West he called Scottish only to be questioned by London :)

[Cornish Jack]

A few days before Xmas, under cables low-level (forced, not intended), vis round 100 yds,ultra crap Continental Low Wx, Wessex 5. Route to go past Schiphol to Valkenberg and hugely uncertain of whereabouts. Eventually hit Zuider Zee and spot island. Convince driver that we should check (confirm???:O ) position before near misses with the heavies. Kind gentleman, in white coat, confirms (tells me where we are). Proceed around Schiphol and hover taxy in with a request from Air Traffic to report to them -SOONEST!! Very official chap says that our en-route landing had been reported 'cos the kind gent in the white coat was a Dutch Foot and Mouth Research Establishment scientist and the UK Min. of Ag &Fish had us down for a 6 week spell in quarantine!!:eek: ...
They did - we didn't, but being hosed down by the local Fire Brigade on the cliffs at N Foreland in Mid December wasn't the most welcome alternative, either!! - but that's another story.:{

[SASless]

Lost.....errrrr.....no.

When you land ten minutes into a twenty minute low fuel light and get directions from a legless guy on a homemade skate board thanking the Lord for hand signs and finger pointing cause neither one of you speak French....then leap off into the dust-haze following a dirt track and realizing all that pointing at the Watch face trying to determine how far the next fuel might be.....and realizing that two marks could be meaning two hours but you did not determine if that was by skate board or by car.

So....lost....nope....just slightly disoriented momentarily!



I had no idea which country I was in....much less where in that country I might even be.

Using a 1957 Map in 1974 in West Africa with only a Mag Compass and a Watch in really dusty vis could provide some comic relief.....after the first dozen beers.

[Ascend Charlie]

A C130 disgorges a Huey at Alice Springs, in the middle of the GAFA (Great Australian F-All) and flies away. Huey gets put together, crew hops in for an Army exercise. Copilot realises he left the nav bag on the Herc. No maps.

Not to worry, trot down to BP garage, buy a road map. Launch off for exercise, realise that there are no roads in the area of operations. But keep on going, it will come good soon.

Army Major in back seat asks cojo to pass the map back to him for a look. Forgets that the doors are pinned back. Pfffft!and map zips out the door. Oops...

[Fareastdriver]

Not lost but looking for some that were lost.

Bardufoss, Norway, 3rd March, 1978.

A task comes up. Some friends from Hereford are unsure of their position and have to be recovered. One of their leaders comes with us and briefs us on a gizmo that they carrying which can be picked up by our tuneable homer in the cockpit. we get airborne and after flying east for a bit up it comes.

We are up at three thousand feet AMSL but only a couple of hundred AGL and we press on following the homer. I am map reading whilst I am flying and I point out to our friend a line on the map that says Norway/Sweden and he tells me to carry on. A quick look around the scenery and their is sweet Fanny Adams apart from a snow covered fence.

We carry on, for quite a long time, and then I point out this line that says Sweden/Finland. Again SFA and then we find them.

We pack them on and at full bore, fifty feet or less and flee back to Norway.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ascend Charlie, know it well. The only maps we had for the trip to New Zealand took us as far as Darwin. Uncle had sent me a road map from Brisbane, luckily we were able to get the rest in Darwin.

[Pegpilot]

My Uncle, a former civvie watch manager at West Drayton, once related to me the tale of an old timer ATC who, on his retirement bash many years ago, came out with a few stories from his former life as an RAF navigator. Tasked with striking an Egyptian airfield at the start of the Suez crisis he couldn't find it, so his pilot suggested he call the airfield up for vectors, which he did and got a very helpful reply from the tower. He had the good grace to call the tower up at the start of the bomb run to say "Thanks for your help, but be advised this is an operational mission and we suggest you now take cover in the basement....."

[ricardian]

GPS killed the radio nav in 2010, but a high-def version is set to return. (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/08/radio-navigation-set-to-make-global-return-as-gps-backup-because-cyber/)

[Dougie M]

Never knowingly completely lost but suffering mild intestinal instability on occasions, I hesitate to comment on eLORAN but numerous Atlantic and Pacific crossings in the mighty Hercules necessitated a number of chain changes on LORAN C "The range being 800nm" and the respective pond crossings were in excess of 2000nm. There were buttock clenching moments when the signals of the next chain were as elusive as owl poo and one was already in skywave on the chain about to be abandoned. With no Navs capable these days, one would wonder from whence cometh the confirming sun/star/moon shot to resolve the bag of nails one has just reset the nav kit to before DRing the next 30 mins to the next fix. At least we were only going 310kts.

[Herod]

Aah but, Dougie, you had a co-pilot map reading. Yes, I could recognise those individual wavetops from previous crossings. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Using a 1957 Map in 1974 in West Africa with only a Mag Compass and a Watch in really dusty vis could provide some comic relief.....after the first dozen beers.
We take maps for granted today.

You were lucky if you had any detail on an African map in the 50s as much remained to be surveyed. Remember many topos, big squares of beige with perhaps a hopeful road across and nothing else.

Or maps of Oman and the Empty Quarter, actually grey mosaic photos with roads picked out in orange - made by Royal Engineers.

[Pontius Navigator]

I also remember low level over Libya radar fixing on sand dunes.

[Cows getting bigger]

Albania 1999 - The Michelin road map was de-rigueur. One of our team had been issued a numbers-only US mil-spec GPS until a friendly local liberated it from him at Kukes. Fortunately the maelstrom of subsequent paperwork was somewhat drowned-out by a C130 having a relatively impressive and expensive TODR/TODA event the following evening.

[BEagle]

Wasn't it in SOAF where some wag produced a chapatti with a lat/long grid drawn on it, explaining that it was his local area map which also doubled as a survival aid?

[Dougie M]

As a junior Nav in the 60s I was on Argosies in Aden and the route to Muharraq had to avoid Saudi airspace and therefore routed via Fahud in a huge dog leg. As diplomatic tensions eased with our imminent departure from Aden direct flights across the empty quarter were authorised to exit at Doha in the desert state of Qatar. (Whatever happened to that place). Miles out into the Rub al Khali and me thinking what a ****hole to die in the skipper Ken Maggs said "Navigator pass me your topo" I had the requisite stack of beige 1: mill maps and hastily scribed the track across it. A few minutes later the map was passed back with a pinpoint and time on it. "WTF" I ventured. "Bedouin Legion outpost" he said. Ken used to fly that route in Wellingtons.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Wasn't it in SOAF where some wag produced a chapatti with a lat/long grid drawn on it, explaining that it was his local area map which also doubled as a survival aid?

BEagle, we never had "wags" in SOAF! Some chapattis were much more accurate than others, all were very nourishing!!

Bill

[Pontius Navigator]

Dougie, Canberras used to file Bahrain-Masirah round the corner and transmit all appropriate calls on that route while flying direct thorough the empty quarter.

[Dan Winterland]

Called "Ready for departure" at Leeming, was cleared to take off, then almost immediately after, instructed to hold position instead. Wondering why, we then saw a JP make a absolutely perfect PFL pattern to roll and depart without hearing one radio call - almost certainly because he was transmitting on Dishforth's tower frequency where he thought he was. I got the impression that Leeming ATC were used to it!

[Dan Winterland]

A mate on helicopters in GW1 carried a sheet of 250 grade sandpaper in his nav bag as a local area map.

[ACW418]

Dan

I did a similar boo boo at Leeming on my Final Handling Check in a Vampire out of Linton on Ouse. Upside down in a loop the checking instructor closed the throttle and informed me the engine had failed. Did all the right things and got a steer for Middleton St George from D & D. Unfortunately it was underneath and Leeming was visible on nearly the right heading. Much yakking on the radio to MstG on VHF when I realised that the expected Lightnings were all Jet Provosts. Had to do a roller on the crosswind runway as that was all the height I had. JP's disapearing in all directions but I got it in. Didn't stop me from having to do it all again the next day!

ACW

[BEagle]

Pottering back to Brawdy in the late summer of '76 at a stately 420KIAS on yet another hot, if rather hazy day, on the lookout for Roch castle which marks the IP for the RW in use...

"Ah, there it is..."C/S, right initials!"

"Merlin 1 and 2 approaching right initials also, can't see you..."

Hmmm... Never mind, there's the aerodrome... Drop down to a bit less than 500ft to make it look good for the tourists.

But where's the biscuit factory (NAVFAC)? And what the heck is that town, I think to myself.

Ah bugger, that wasn't Roch castle, but some Viet Taff god shop or other - that town must be Haverfordwest so.... that's NOT Brawdy, it's Withybush!

"Errm. C/S, repositioning behind Merlin!"

"Thanks, fella!" (for 'twas Tim Webb at the helm of Merlin lead)

Throttle gently back to idle, PULL...and just avoid the Withybush ATZ as I go overhead on the blue note...

They never complained, nor did I admit my cock-up! Until now....

[WIDN62]

Coming back to Cranwell from Intro to Low Flying with my newly arrived B2 instructor.
"Where do you think we are Bloggs?"
"Don't know Sir - where are we?"
"Don't know Bloggs!"
Fortunately the newly completed M1 appeared out of the haze, my instructor dropped as low as he dared and we flew north until I could read a sign which said "Doncaster xx Sheffield yy".

[chevvron]

Farnborough Radar one day; I saw a '7000' squawk appear near Winchester moving quite fast and indicating about 2,000ft climbing. It was tracking north east and as it climbed, it's altitude readout indicated it had entered controlled airspace. It eventually levelled off at FL170 but when it got overhead Heathrow, suddenly went into an orbit. About this time, D & D phoned to say a Sea Harrier was overdue at Yeovilton and was last seen heading towards the London area. We pointed out the 7000 squawk which by this time had turned onto a reciprocal of its original course and was heading towards us. Sure enough, when it got overhead (still indicating FL170) it went into an orbit again and its altitude readout started unwinding at high speed, so much so that the tower controller scrambled our fire service assuming it was crashing. Anyway a Sea Harrier appeared in the circuit and levelled off, did a quick circuit on runway 25 (we'd put all the lights on) and then landed. At the time, our Landrover was equipped with a 'Follow Me' sign and he wasn't far from the runway so positioned himself near one of the turnoffs to lead ot to a parking area.
Turned out it was a USMC pilot on exchange; he'd had radio failure over the sea south of Cornwall/Devon then headed north east to try to find Yeovilton. Seeing Southampton Water, he assumed it was Plymouth Sound so continued on the same track, only becoming suspicious when he saw a large airfield below him with airliners parked all over it. Then he headed south west, saw Farnborough with military type aircraft parked and made a dive for it.
He hadn't a clue where he'd landed until the groundcrew told him after he'd shut down.
They wouldn't let him fly back to Yeovilton either; sent up a 2 seater with a spare pilot to ferry his aircraft back and he returned in the back seat.

[Pontius Navigator]

At sea it is easy. See large ship, land, say hello mother. Or zdravstvuyte or even Buenos dios.

[Herod]

Ref Chevron's post. Many moons ago a USAF pilot from, I think Chivenor, did something similar and eventually landed at Thorney Island. As duty Ops Controller I was tasked with looking after him, including lunch in the mess. Unfortunately, he had the same surname as me, and the nickname "Ace". He would introduce himself as "Ace XXXX". It took me years before people stopped calling me "Ace".

[charliegolf]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the telephone boxes in NI changing miraculously from red to green paint! Whilst not being lost, of course.

[Exnomad]

Under training, "uncertain of positions" is the correct definition, never "lost", after all, you still have the aircraft with you, so can rectify that.

[Dan Winterland]

Free Nav teaching exercise in Wales with my regular student. He was a bigger bullpooper than me and convinced me that he was correct and I was not. Turns out he wasn't and the result was we were completely and utterly lost in the one bit of Wales I didn't know. Nothing other to do than head west, find the coast, fly North until we found something we could identify. Aberystwyth it turned out.

The free Nav teaching exercise was all about being lost for most of the trip.

[Lyneham Lad]

Under training, "uncertain of positions" is the correct definition, never "lost", after all, you still have the aircraft with you, so can rectify that.

Hmm, have been known to be "temporarily uncertain of my position" - after a glass or three. :uhoh:

[Pontius Navigator]

LL, I remember very clearly my position and attitude, but not direction after one period of uncertainty.

In the bathroom, erect and horizontal but definitely on a flat spin. On rarer occasions the bedroom, inverted on the bed, and again in a flat spin. Now that was scary as I thought the bed was going to tip.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Uncertain of position

I like that! Much sharper than saying "I'm clueless as to WTF I am."

LL & PN, thanks for the reminiscences, been there, done that...

[langleybaston]

LL, I remember very clearly my position and attitude, but not direction after one period of uncertainty.

In the bathroom, erect and horizontal but definitely on a flat spin. On rarer occasions the bedroom, inverted on the bed, and again in a flat spin. Now that was scary as I thought the bed was going to tip.

In my case I cannot stop the wardrobe rotating. Always clockwise. Better than peeing in it, which happened at RAF Guetersloh on more than one occasion.
Not me, I hasten to add .......... my finest hour was to return to Zeppelinstr via the coal hole in monkey suit. The black bits were OK.

[oxenos]

the bed was going to tip.
Referred to in Singapore as the " whirling pit ". Leave the light on, the fan stays still and the room goes round. Switch off the light and the bed starts to pull up into a loop, and you just KNOW there isn't enough speed to get over the top.
One solution, (never tried it) was to put the bed against the wall, mattress under the bed, wardrobe on its side next to the bed, crawl in from the foot end of the bed, and sleep knowing that whatever the bed did you could not fall out .
The other was to sleep in the wardrobe.
Not sure how we got from navigational problems onto this. Anyone would think we had been drinking too much Tiger.

[salad-dodger]

Not sure how we got from navigational problems onto this.

I do.

S-D

[oxenos]

I do.

S-D

It was that there Poncey Navigator

[SASless]

A mate on helicopters in GW1 carried a sheet of 250 grade sandpaper in his nav bag as a local area map.


Now that is funny....I don't care who you are!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Not guilty. see Lyneham Lad.

[Ogre]

Well if Heisenberg reckons you can either know a particles position or it's momentum but not both at the same time, what chance do you have in a full sized aircraft....

[gzornenplatz]

I found full opposite rudder effective.

[teeteringhead]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the telephone boxes in NI changing miraculously from red to green paint! Whilst not being lost, of course Saw the green boxes (from a distance of course!!) once when flying with the then SRAFONI, who insisted on ignoring the headings I was giving him. "I have control" swiftly (geddit) followed by a max rate turn onto North.

Got own back when dined out; described him as "very nearly SRAFOSI!"

[Tengah Type]

Not so much as lost, but unable to update the DR position for a long time. For example, in the 60s on a "weather recce" sortie in the Far East, I was able to get a Top of Climb fix but no update to the Air Position Indicator for over three hours. Operating with Met forecast winds of "Variable/20 kts" from Sea Level to FL500. Search pattern was within 30 miles of an unfriendly coast. Eventually it was light enough to get a Pinpoint on a reef. Only 10 miles in error, Lucky!

Another example in the 70s was on transit from UK to Porto out of VOR and Decca coverage. The API decided to run away west at 400kts and the Radio Compass failed.We went as low as we dared to try to get below cloud to use the Drift Sight but cloudbase too low. We then climbed as high as we could to try to get a Sun Shot, but did not break cloud. So it was Manual Airplot and calling the aircraft ahead for the wind. The Station Commander, who was along for the ride, was somewhat puzzled to see the Radio Compass Receiver in bits on the Nav Table as I vainly cleaned the contacts on the valves to try to get it to work and get a Consol Line.

Even into the 80s you could be in trouble if the Doppler failed on the Atlantic after leaving the coast en route to Goose Bay. After leaving TACAN range you could not
get a longitude check until south of Iceland. Twice ,when this happened to me, the Met forecast was 270/40 which turned out to be 270/120. Fortunately on both occasions I was accompanied by either Buccaneers or Harriers who could update me to the actual winds, saving a potential 100 mile error.

[BEagle]

Fortunately Tengah Type was a very skilled navigator of the 'old school' and knew all the esoteric tricks of his trade.

Unlike this chap, who managed to get some 510nm off track in a VC10:

From A Little VC10derness (http://www.vc10.net):

Incidents and Accidents (http://www.vc10.net/History/incidents_and_accidents.html#Navigation_error_over_the_North _Atlantic)

[Tengah Type]

BEagle thank you for your kind words. I will buy you a beer when we next meet at TBs.

[Q-SKI]

Surely only ever temporarily unsure of current position ??

[BEagle]

TT, no snags, mate. Some of the newer navigators on our fleet surprised me by having less knowledge of 'traditional' subjects such as astro than did typical V-force navigators. Probably due to a change in emphasis in the syllabus at Finningley to suit the Buccaneer / Phantom / Tornado force?

Haven't been to TBs for a few months - are you likely to be over for the next one?

[Four Turbo]

Early days on Canberras my much more experienced Nav never got lost. He just 'found an MPP using the Gibson method'. Later on I realised it was the same thing!

[Fareastdriver]

'traditional' subjects such as astro than did typical V-force navigators.

On boring night navexs my navigators would let me down the back to try some astro fixs.

My cocked hats where next month's navexs.

[Pontius Navigator]

Four Turbo, and a force balance dangleometer

[oxenos]

A cocked hat made up of an isogonal, an FIR boundary and a position line found in the bottom of a nav. bag left over from a previous trip.

[son of brommers]

Apologies to those who know what they are talking about but herewith an anecdote from my late father (my memory is foggy and my terminology is more than likely incorrect):
Overheard a middle eastern exchange pilot requesting a bearing from the tower. Duly given by tower.
Repeated request for bearing. Duly given, same as previous.
Repeated request for bearing. Duly given, same as previous.
Tower asks if he has any visual references. Replies that there is a haystack on left wing. Transpires was lost on taxiway............

[BEagle]

At RAFC, one student returns from his FNT (he passed it) and briefs his mates on the low level section:

"This railway line is very hard to make out, but I was just able to do so"

"Err, Phil - that's the England/Wales border!"

[Haraka]

Beags a mutual mate of ours ( N..... Sp.....) was flying a dual navex in a Towers J.P. when his instructor pointed out:

"And if you look down to your left Sp..... ,you will see we are paralleling a disused railway line".

This he duly did and also spotted a locomotive and trucks in progress.

"Oh, yes Sir -and look! There's a disused train going along it!

N.S. resigned shortly afterward and went to sea instead.