Delta Fights Back. Literally!

[Turbokite]

Delta releases full-length video educating employees on Gulf carrier subsidies | Delta News Hub (http://news.delta.com/delta-releases-full-length-video-educating-employees-gulf-carrier-subsidies)

[aeropix]

All this animosity towards the ME3 is really confusing to me when it is Delta's own management who are constantly giving away their flying and outsourcing US jobs to their Skyteam partners.

10 years ago and long long before Emirates was any kind of threat, (not that it is today for Delta, who has a totally different geographical area, but that's another argument) Delta already outsourced all the India flying that they complained bitterly about in the video, to KLM and Air France.

Today, the Narita Hub is totally dismantled after outsourcing all the Asia flying to Korean.

Where's the employee Moral outrage over that?

[Jack330]

I see tough times coming 😳

[oboema]

@aeropix

The KLM/AF/Skyteam flying to India was taken over by partners with decent T&C's from countries with decent labour laws, There were no governments pouring billions in aviation.
Strong union representation. All in close concert with ALPA.

KLM/AF for example dropped quite a few US destinations, to then be serviced by DL as part of the deal(s)

+1 for the DL vid

[fliion]

Saudia, Aeroflot, China Eastern, Aerolineas - all govt subsidized/ propped up at various times.

All SkyTeam members -

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[pilotguy1222]

That video had me laugh a few times!!! I have never seen such scripted BS pouring out of peoples' mouths who have zero knowledge about what they are speaking.

[shedsd330]

That video had me laugh a few times!!! I have never seen such scripted BS pouring out of peoples' mouths who have zero knowledge about what they are speaking.

Kind of like an EK pilot recruitment ad.

[The Outlaw]

I'm not sure it'll matter in the long run, either way, right or wrong it will provide the Americans with the cannon fodder they're looking for.

No one will really know with 100 % accuracy if the ME3 are cooking the books or not except for maybe a dozen people!

[final06]

I am looking forward to the day when the ME3 are taking over the US domestic market! :}

I have enough of grumpy grannies offering lousy service in first class when flying with american carriers. :ugh:

[The Outlaw]

I am looking forward to the day when the ME3 are taking over the US domestic market! :}

I have enough of grumpy grannies offering lousy service in first class when flying with american carriers. :ugh:

I'd take the granny with a brain over the 22 year old without.

Personally, I don't share your view about giving away a home industry to foreign interests. There is no doubt the North American and Euro players need to step up their game but foreign invasion is not the answer.

Would you feel the same if it was North Korea, China or India invading the North American market?

[final06]

@outlaw

Stop whining.

Aren't there hords of north american pilots flying the shiny ME3 jets?
Pretty un-american in my opinion. :}

[misd-agin]

Absolutely hordes of them. Hordes, they're everywhere. But a drop in the bucket compared to the 75,000+ U.S. 121 pilots.

[The Outlaw]

@outlaw

Stop whining.

Aren't there hords of north american pilots flying the shiny ME3 jets?
Pretty un-american in my opinion. :}

There are fewer than you think. I'll stop whining when you stop bowing to your Arab masters and defend the airlines you have at home. Perhaps there wouldn't be any Americans working abroad if people like you stopped giving away the industry to foreigners.

They protect their markets, the Americans should too.

[fliion]

Stop talking pseudo patriotic crap.

American jobs really? Did you not see the part where Ed Bastian talks about buying more widebodies and going back to India if they can protect Delta - and then the video shows an AIRBUS 330!

Wtf! Way to support the 787 line,AMERICAN jobs eh?

Or the southern twanged wholesome FA "Jennifer pit in my stomach" bit.... wonder does she get that same nausea when she see the regional FA wages that do 50% of major flights in the US

Oh it's a puke inducing video alright.

[typhoonpilot]

All this animosity towards the ME3 is really confusing to me when it is Delta's own management who are constantly giving away their flying and outsourcing US jobs to their Skyteam partners.

10 years ago and long long before Emirates was any kind of threat, (not that it is today for Delta, who has a totally different geographical area, but that's another argument) Delta already outsourced all the India flying that they complained bitterly about in the video, to KLM and Air France.

Today, the Narita Hub is totally dismantled after outsourcing all the Asia flying to Korean.

Where's the employee Moral outrage over that?


Delta has unilaterally pulled out of Bangkok and Taipei this year. They stopped NWA's old Shenzhen Shekou check-in for HKG flights a few years ago. They stopped JFK-NRT flights as well. Now if you want to fly Delta to anywhere in S.E. Asia you get to go via PVG on China Eastern or ICN on Korean. First choice is a total joke of an airline and the transfer process in PVG is a nightmare. Second choice means you pray that their is an expat in the flight deck or your life is in jeopardy.

Your post shows you are one of the few who actually gets it. The U.S. legacy carriers are out-sourcing their international flying and pretty much all international growth potential to alliance and code share partners. Their management have got the morons at ALPA chasing their tails with this battle against the ME3 and Norwegian all while "the other hand" is dismantling their premier international flying and future growth potential.

[BDD]

Is it just me, I don't think they showed a single 777 or 787 of any
ME3 airline in the video.

BDD

[fliion]

All of Delta's future multi billion $ wide body orders are exclusively for Airbus aircraft - which supports European employment of American jobs.

They cancelled the legacy 787 NWA orders in 2016.

Let's face it - we are all in this for ourselves. My interests are < fliion.inc > and I have no issue with Delta folks being in it for Delta.inc et al. That's all fair.

But this principled hypocrisy about protecting American jobs & govt subsidies- when in reality you are supporting the opposite - is just "good ole comedy"

[jack schidt]

Fighting back or not, it's catch 22 for the Americans. Should the ME3 taper their flying to America and need less Boeing aircraft with less maintenance and spare parts, then who's going to win that argument, Boeing v Delta V Government!?

Enjoy your day all

J

[final06]

I'll stop whining when you stop bowing to your Arab masters and defend the airlines you have at home.

You can stop whining right now.
I do not work for camelf:mad:s.
I work for a european airline.

[The Outlaw]

You can stop whining right now.
I do not work for camelf:mad:s.
I work for a european airline.

Wow...you really are a piece of work!!

You work in a market that those very same Arabs are buying up daily! Ever see the big EK 380 at LHR? Ever wonder for a sec who will own the UK passenger traffic in 20 years?

And in your twisted logic, you think the Americans should just bend over....I don't think so. Even The Canadians have a set of gonads and said no.

The UK and France and Belgium will be mostly controlled by the Middle East in a few years anyway so its clear to me that your Stockholm Syndrome is alive and well.

Good luck and maybe a good time brush up on some Arabic!

[Bidule]

They protect their markets, the Americans should too.

Europeans should do same: US pilots flying domestic operations in Europe (DHL...) out!

[The Outlaw]

Europeans should do same: US pilots flying domestic operations in Europe (DHL...) out!

I agree...

[Tube Rider]

And in your twisted logic, you think the Americans should just bend over....I don't think so. Even The Canadians have a set of gonads and said no.


EVEN the Canadians? It was "ONLY" the Canadians. The Americans did bend over and are now saying, "oh I was drunk when I said yes".

[Joker11]

Did Delta get the memo? We aren't doing so well ourselfs...

[Airmann]

The US and Europe have been subsidizing their farmers from years in order to stop their agriculture business more or less disappearing in the face of cheaper imports. This is also an illegal government subsidy. Has been argued as such for decades by third world countries. Amounts to around 25 Billion a year.

Last time I flew one of those middle East shiny jets they were owned by offshore leasing companies.

[QCM]

This is a general attitude in this part of the world!
When they wanted to attack Vietnam they invented the Gulf of Tonkin fake story...then they invented Saddam Hussein massive destruction weapons to attack Irak...these guys keep lying to the face of the world considered as their own business field,supported by yellow wigged "president"

[Buford]

I think the US aviation market was blindsided by two things - 9/11 and the rise of the ME3. Good on them for fighting back! Full disclosure, ex-EK flight attendant here (1996-1999) & EK pilot (ok, wife writing this) 2005-2017. He's the Seppo, I'm the Aussie, and he's now with Delta. The video might be emotive but there's definitely some truth to it. Good on Delta for fighting back! Emirates decimated Qantas in Oz. Once they entered the market in 1996 it was all downhill from there. Does anyone who works for EK truly believe they do so without the help of Dubai Inc.? The company was a nice place to work with Maurice Flanagan at the helm, but as soon as they moved to the bouncy castle and TC took over, the rot set in. It's not a nice place to be now and both f/a's and flight deck are overworked to the point where it's unhealthy and dangerous. Are any staff below flight attendant paid as well as their counterparts in the US, UK, Australia, NZ? I doubt it. In 1996 when I joined EK construction workers, taxi drivers, retail employees, etc. were paid 750dh-1000dh a month, fast forward 21 years, I read reports that now it's about 1000dh-1500dh a month...that's what you're up against. It's NOT a level playing field. The baggage handlers, ground staff, etc. at Dubai airport are paid embarrassing sums of money because they're from places like Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, the Phillipines. And before the backlash begins, yes, I had a live-in maid for all of 2 years of the 15 that I lived in Dubai. Good on Delta for drumming up support from the government and protecting their aviation industry. I wish Australia had done the same! And, no, I'm not a Trump supporter. Once upon a time EK was a nice place to be and Dubai was a lot more fun...the bonus was you could save lots of money to send 'home'. The only thing I miss about Dubai are the many great friends we left behind. EK/Dubai does not care, and never will. Admit that as an expat we all are mercenaries, or give in to the Stockholm Syndrome. We all decide for ourselves... but don't ever think that they 'care'.

[UAL777]

Delta is doing what's right.

[fliion]

Buford - no one has a problem with Delta being in it it for Delta and now you wanting the same - good for you.

Its the premise that 'we are angry' because of a higher moral principle than those 'people' in the Middle East that has observers raising an eyebrow

So presumably you are on Delta forums arguing that your code shares shouldn't be subsidized or that the Egyptair baggage handlers in Cairo, Saudi catering staff in Riyadh, China Eastern cleaners etc etc be paid better western wages. I'm sure when Delta were in town - they paid their Dubai workers the market rate. That's business.

So please stop with the moral grandstanding - you say you have been in the business awhile. Then you should remember when things were bad in the US - Delta and many other Airline mgt threw thousands of pilots onto the street. Your own husband was a furloughee from an American carrier. You and many of them came here where you were able to put food on your table, put kids in private school and hire the maid. How quickly people forget.

I'm no EK fan - I'm a contractor that gets paid by EK and and that will change at a point of my choosing in the future.

But don't forget - you're hubby is a hired gun too and in the next 20 plus years of his career in big D one hopes its all uphill because if it's not - you may want to do a Google on how many times Delta has furloughed since you have beeen on the planet.

[donpizmeov]

Former baggage handler sues Delta over loss of job - StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/delta-baggage-handler-says-pay-union-advocacy-cost-him-his-job/305515321/)

Same same. When you see any airline management move their lips you know the scent from a cows bottom will be close behind.

[Buford]

Will clear a few things up for filion's sake. Yes, been in the industry long enough now; was waiting on a class date with NWA when 9/11 happened - that job offer was soon retracted. Never was furloughed, made the decision to leave before that happened. Never worked the regionals. Don't spend too much time posting comments anywhere, or defending anyone or anything, in particular. Emirates worked for us but it was never the long-term plan, we were in Dubai seven years longer than we hoped we'd be. In those seven years the company changed for the worse. At the end of the day it's business, plain and simple. All carriers will do what they need to in order to survive, as will each of us.

[fliion]

Well said, it's business - at least we've now established that's it not about the people below:

"The baggage handlers, ground staff, etc. at Dubai airport are paid embarrassing sums of money because they're from places like Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, the Phillipines. And before the backlash begins, yes, I had a live-in maid for all of 2 years of the 15 that I lived in Dubai. Good on"

Otherwise you would'nt have stayed 15 years or taken the 46 week profit share (in your time here) which was enabled by those workers wages - toiling the ramp for "embarrassing sums"

One thing that gets me going is this 'stolen valor' syndrome that people get when they leave - "we are better people than you". You lived it, you took the cash - you own it.

[Logohu]

A few people on here seem to be suffering from short (or selective) memory syndrome. It wasn't that long ago that Delta and the others were being bailed out for years by the US Government by way of Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. And if all else fails, just start a war somewhere and hand out all those juicy US troop carrying contracts to them. Most of the so called "legacies" in Europe grew dominant and fat by receiving Government protection and state aid for decades (some still are). How dare some pesky upstarts from "those" countries try and do the same !

"But there's abuse of labour" they cry ! Well what about the millions who cruise the world every year being served by "those nice Philippino people" and crew from other developing countries, earning third world wages and with no US labour law protection ? Of course that's different, because the biggest cruise lines are mainly US owned and headquartered, and serving mainly rich Americans. Let's be honest, the management of the US Big3 or almost any airline would do exactly the same thing in a heart beat if they could find a way.

As someone else said, Delta has been busy for years outsourcing the family silver to some great partner airlines too - real pillars of customer service and safety like Air France, China Southern, Korean Air, Aeroflot etc. Yeah right. Who needs enemies from the M.E. with partners like that...

[final06]

@buford

How much are modern day slaves (Mexican immigrants) earning per hour in the USA?

[Buford]

Good luck to all. The industry isn't an easy one to be a part of but we all loved it at some stage. I'm starting to enjoy it once more and I'm thankful to Delta for that. Onwards and upwards.

[Neektu]

Which ME airline is Cutter? ��

[White Knight]

Cutter? Goat? Same same.......

[Airmann]

The solution is simple. The ME3 should agree to halt all expansion throughout the world and help Delta out on condition that Delta negotiates with Boeing to cancel all orders to ME3 for no cancellation penalties.

[4runner]

The lengths and tangents of the pro middle eastern carrier crowd goes to is amazing. Delta flew some soldiers during a war. It's called Air Mobility Command. It's a bid process, not especially lucrative and it causes a lot of disruptions. Rolling eyes, keep drawing those tangential arcs.

[4runner]

@buford

How much are modern day slaves (Mexican immigrants) earning per hour in the USA?

Mexico is number 14 for per capita income in the world. They're not slaves, they most certainly, without a doubt and absolutely came to the US voluntarily and can leave whenever they wish. They don't require "exit visas".....keep drawing the arcs.

[swh]

Emirates decimated Qantas in Oz. Once they entered the market in 1996 it was all downhill from there.

Qantas and many of the European airlines flying to Australia were decimated by Singapore Airlines. Back in the 1970s back when Singapore was nothing more than a fishing village they put a massive order in for 747s. That order was funded by the Singapore soverign wealth fund. Qantas actually helped MSA back then to train them on how to operate and maintain jets. The Singapoeans were good students and ended up gaining about 45% of the market share between Europe and Australia, in the process most European airlines stopped flying to Australia, and Qantas pulled out of many destinations in Europe. In the process Singapore airport became a major hub and supplied significant employment and a significant percentage of the Singapore GDP.

What happened at another fishing village in the Middle East was to put the Singapore Airlines plan on steroids, the biggest loser in the ME expansion has been Singapore Airlines, not Qantas. Like Singapore the Dubai airport now earns a significant amount of GDP for Dubai.

I find the video hypercritical, Americans are all for free trade and competition, except when they are inefficient and cannot compete. One of the biggest reasons why they find it hard to compete is their fleet is so old, the other is US company law and the tax they have to pay.

In this world of globalisation, around 45% of any Airbus is built in the US, Airbus is the largest export customer of the US aerospace industry. Boeing does not build the 787, they assemble it. Major assemblies are built by other companies and are joined together by Boeing. Have a look at the Dreamlifter swallow two 787 wings when it visits Japan and then flies them to the Boeing for assembly.

[Orvilles dad]

Somebody mentioned the Canadians and gonads - let me tell you, if there are any gonads there, they are all extremely small and shrunken!

The reason that Canada limits the ME3 to 3 flights a week is not that they are protecting Air Canada, who doesn’t fly to DXB anyway, but Lufthansa, Air Canada’s Star Alliance Partner.

Canada was keen to negotiate a Trade Treaty with the EU, so helping a German Airline was seen to be useful in making the argument. Hence, the limitations on the number of flights by the ME3 - and, surprise, surprise, a successful Trade Treaty was ratified by the Eu earlier this year.

As for Air Canada, lest we forget, it was Government Owned until 1988 and went bankrupt in 2003, so benefitted again from Government support through the Companies Creditors Arrangement Act (the Canadian equivalent to the US Chapter 11) until it emerged as a private Company again in 2004.

But as in many major Canadian Companies, it isn’t really free to make all its own decisions - as an example, the Federal Government Air Canada Act requires their headquarters to be in Montreal - this clearly isn’t an independent Company free of Governmental interference!

It is also slightly hypercritical for Delta to go on about EK’s use of 5th Freedom rights and then for folks to offer up Air Canada as a paragon of virtue.

Currently, AC uses fifth freedom rights on Santiago-Buenos Aires, and in the past, fifth freedom routes have included: Honolulu-Sydney, London Heathrow-Düsseldorf, Paris-Geneva, Paris-Munich, Paris-Berlin, Frankfurt-Zürich, Zürich-Zagreb, Zürich-Vienna, Zürich-Delhi, Lisbon-Madrid, Brussels-Prague, London Heathrow-Delhi, London Heathrow-Nice, London Heathrow-Bombay-Singapore.

Finally, AC has been heavily censured by the Government for deliberate overbooking and the use of predatory pricing aimed at stifling competition in the market. As a result, for such a huge country, Canada only has 2 national airlines - Air Canada and Westjet, who were themselves subject to a ticket price onslaught from Air Canada when they initially started in an attempt to them out of business - as they did JetsGo and other long gone competitors.

Meanwhile, it's almost impossible to get a seat on one of the 3 weekly EK flights to Dubai….

[Geebz]

Funny how you ME3 pilots complain every time US interests (labor unions, airlines, etc) fight back to prevent what your airlines did to Europe, yet at the same time you come on here to complain at a near-constant rate how miserable life is working for EY/ EK/ QR... which is mostly because you are not allowed to organize and join a labor union. One whose sole purpose is to fight for your rights and benefits whilst you're out flying the line.

Talk about hypocrisy.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Only way to achieve US-level pay-rates and work rules is to hold management accountable. The only way to do that is to join a body that empowers aviators to speak as one collective voice. And since labor unions are banned in the most mE countries, your T&Cs aren't going to be improving anytime soon.

Your (ME3) rates of pay and work rules are in the dark ages. Wake up. It's ok though. We'll do the heavy-lifting and get this profession elevated, you can participate in the rising tide. But don't be under any illusions that you did anything to accomplish that. And in that same vain, we will fight, quite vigorously to expose the fraud of these open skies agreements.

[The Outlaw]

Somebody mentioned the Canadians and gonads - let me tell you, if there are any gonads there, they are all extremely small and shrunken!

I'd disagree with that. Try to remember how many of those small scrotum Canucks fought in the war to liberate Europe, I'll bet they'd kick an ass or two today if provoked.

The reason that Canada limits the ME3 to 3 flights a week is not that they are protecting Air Canada, who doesn’t fly to DXB anyway, but Lufthansa, Air Canada’s Star Alliance Partner.

Air Canada flies to Dubai 3 times a week.


Canada was keen to negotiate a Trade Treaty with the EU, so helping a German Airline was seen to be useful in making the argument. Hence, the limitations on the number of flights by the ME3 - and, surprise, surprise, a successful Trade Treaty was ratified by the Eu earlier this year.

False, the STAR alliance goes way deeper than airlines. Think broader.

As for Air Canada, lest we forget, it was Government Owned until 1988 and went bankrupt in 2003, so benefitted again from Government support through the Companies Creditors Arrangement Act (the Canadian equivalent to the US Chapter 11) until it emerged as a private Company again in 2004.

The government of Canada offered no support during the CCAA. Based on good friends who work there and "From The Top", by Robert Milton, then CEO of Air Canada.

But as in many major Canadian Companies, it isn’t really free to make all its own decisions - as an example, the Federal Government Air Canada Act requires their headquarters to be in Montreal - this clearly isn’t an independent Company free of Governmental interference!

That is true and true of many companies in Canada. Not the free country many would think.



It is also slightly hypercritical for Delta to go on about EK’s use of 5th Freedom rights and then for folks to offer up Air Canada as a paragon of virtue.

I'd disagree with that too.

Currently, AC uses fifth freedom rights on Santiago-Buenos Aires, and in the past, fifth freedom routes have included: Honolulu-Sydney, London Heathrow-Düsseldorf, Paris-Geneva, Paris-Munich, Paris-Berlin, Frankfurt-Zürich, Zürich-Zagreb, Zürich-Vienna, Zürich-Delhi, Lisbon-Madrid, Brussels-Prague, London Heathrow-Delhi, London Heathrow-Nice, London Heathrow-Bombay-Singapore.

Finally, AC has been heavily censured by the Government for deliberate overbooking and the use of predatory pricing aimed at stifling competition in the market. As a result, for such a huge country, Canada only has 2 national airlines - Air Canada and Westjet, who were themselves subject to a ticket price onslaught from Air Canada when they initially started in an attempt to them out of business - as they did JetsGo and other long gone competitors.

Canada can barely (almost can't) support 2 airlines in the manor Canadians expect. They expect full service at low cost rates, maybe the ridiculous taxes mean the average family just doesn't have the money to fly a fancy ME carrier. There are government agencies in Canada that set the ticket pricing that AC must operate with, contravention results in LARGE penalties. Go back to your point about AC as a private company which operated under strict state control, then you'll understand how hand tied they are...mind you so is Aeroflot...you can draw your own conclusions.


Meanwhile, it's almost impossible to get a seat on one of the 3 weekly EK flights to Dubai….

Try the Air Canada Flights...I hear they have a few seats open and it's a cosy 787.


I doubt the ME operators are angels in the equation. Its time the North Americans stepped up the game but not by giving it away to the Arab's. Ask yourself if Putin will bow to the ME3? Why should Trump.

[final06]

Mexico is number 14 for per capita income in the world. They're not slaves, they most certainly, without a doubt and absolutely came to the US voluntarily and can leave whenever they wish. They don't require "exit visas".....keep drawing the arcs.


4runner,
go back to school!

It is not about average income or gross national product.
It is about inequality.

Some 53,8 % of the Mexicans live below the poverty line.
They are modern day slaves in the USA like the workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Philippines, Ethopia, etc... in the Middle East.
You Americans have a nice live based on their misery.
Point.

Start here:
https://borgenproject.org/mexico-poverty-rate/:suspect:

[Trader]

I always love how people trot out the words 'competition', 'free trade' etc. Both are fine provided there is a generally equal playing field and reciprocity. At its very basic core free trade works when both (or multiple) parties benefit equally. The simplistic explanation is that one country has advantages in one area while another has advantages in another area. By allowing free trade each sacrifices one area to benefit in the other. The end result being that each countries consumer benefits through cheaper prices.

Simply yelling 'free trade' is absolutely irrelevant! Unless both countries benefit there is no point in signing an agreement.

The ME3 (and other small city states or countries) don't have much to offer in terms of equal benefits.

The Canadian issue is a perfect example. Other than cheaper fares on a single route how would 'free trade' with the UAE benefit Canada? Instead, Canada's Air Policy has always looked at each individual country/agreement. If both sides benefit and there is enough traffic between the 2 countries then an agreement can be reached. So Canada to the UK, most European countries, South America etc etc has enough natural traffic BETWEEN them to sign an agreement.

But the UAE provides almost no traffic from the UAE itself. It hubs them in and out. SO why would Canada sign an agreement?

Worse, by allowing the UAE access it would cannibalize other routes. At the moment there are several frequencies to London, Frankfurt etc. Allowing the UAE to hub pax from India to Canada would siphon pax from routes that connect via Europe. Those pax are traveling one way or another - via UAE or Europe. So by allowing the ME3 into Canada they would likely lose frequencies to many Euro destinations. Frequencies are valuable and important. Code share profits would also decline.

So why sign such a lopsided agreement?

As I said, free trade only works when it's good for both sides. The idea that it is always good is ridiculous.

[Trader]

I'd also add that it is interesting when the ME cry about free trade while they are involved in a cartel to keep oil prices inflated and have done so for decades.

[777boyindubai]

Not to mention a utility monopoly and a telecoms duopoly.

[fliion]

Settle down, you're drifting boys.

No one on here arguing free trade, ME trade policies, OPEC (wtf!), gulf workers rights, unions, SIA, Canadian testes (yeegads the thought!)

We know where we live and what it is - it's just a fancy oil rig with all the bells and whistles - we come do our shift and leave - never to stay.

Purely addressing the hypocrisy by example, of Delta basing the video on higher principles of caring about American workers and govt subsidies - when it's about Delta workers & Delta profitability.

All fine - but no 'cry me a river' please.

[Buford]

Well said, Trader.

[Sorry Dog]

How much are modern day slaves (Mexican immigrants) earning per hour in the USA?

I can give actual data to this one. It is quite common
for day rate under the table cash pay to be 10-15 an hour. This is for low skill usually laborious work. If the immigrant in question has or learns a skill then that rate will go up. I have a lot more experience and thoughts on this matter, but the bottom line is that the reason that many are in the U.S. is that they can make more money here than at home, and quite a few that I have had conversations with are working a long-term plan of working in the states for 15-20 saving or sending that money home, and retiring back home when they have enough. Hhhmmmm, does that sort of thing sound familiar??

Anyway, calling it slave labor is a half truth at best, yet it is not wrong in the assertion that the ME3 are being directly subsidized or have been greatly subsidized in past.


As for the video, it is quite arguable that it is over the top and full of hypocrisy.

There is one point about free trade that I believe is very important to understand is that often jobs are offshored to places because of cheaper labor but all too often it is because the standards of labor, pollution, and social safety nets are 50 to 100 years behind the western world this moral discount is passed on the consumer and stakeholders of the corporations taking advantage. There are many moral objections to this offshoring of external costs (labor rights for low income workers being one in particular).
While I would agree that the video is convenient half truth one question you have to ask is if say ME3 became much larger and more dominant would their workers (and displaced aviation workers) be better off for that change?

[Farrell]

That video is cringeworthy.

If Delta or any other airline had the funding / resources to do the same, I have no doubt that they would.
And officially - by any government / business standards - Qatar Airways etc are not subsidised - they are legally invested companies within a sovereign wealth fund.

I've flown on all US legacy carriers in all three classes over the past twelve months. They are an utter disgrace: for both service and environment.

Do a roundtrip intercontinental flight with Qatar Airways having done an equivalent distance with a US carrier - and honestly tell me why I as customer, should except Delta's version of luxury or listen to their "level playing field" woes.

Useless.

[Panther 88]

The lengths and tangents of the pro middle eastern carrier crowd goes to is amazing. Delta flew some soldiers during a war. It's called Air Mobility Command. It's a bid process, not especially lucrative and it causes a lot of disruptions. Rolling eyes, keep drawing those tangential arcs.

Incorrect, it's called CRAF, Civil Reserve Air Force. When there is a need for an airlift, they call on the CRAF airlines. In return, when the DOD does normal ticketing for service personnel, they will book on the CRAF airlines. And that is very lucrative. If an airline is not in the CRAF program, then perhaps the bid is not so lucrative.

The DOD does a very extensive investigation, I believe yearly, on the CRAF airlines to determine their level of safety and whether or not the airline can remain in the program. This all after the Arrow Air crash a few decades ago, in Canada.

[donpizmeov2]

Let see who'll win the fight ... AM3 or Boeing!

[Emma Royds]

You look a bit more professional if you at least get the name of two of your competitors correct. Anyone heard of Gutter Airways or Emirates Airlines before? :} :}

[shedsd330]

Video is totally a lie.

Maintenance job will still be there for these middle east airlines.people love to fly with middle east airlines? Why ? because when an old middle east passenger fly with these airlines, he /she can communicate with the flight attendant. Imagine you want a water in American airline, You ask for water and the flight attendant will look at you as third world countries and talk super fast that an old woman can not understand what she/he is saying. It's about culture. American wants to be best in everything by crushing all other countries. They new middle east has money and they can buy everything and that's why they are selling weapons to the middle east. I hope there is one day we can stop them so other countries can live better.

Are you a cab driver in Queens by chance?

[thatwasclose]

That video is cringeworthy.

If Delta or any other airline had the funding / resources to do the same, I have no doubt that they would.
And officially - by any government / business standards - Qatar Airways etc are not subsidised - they are legally invested companies within a sovereign wealth fund.

I've flown on all US legacy carriers in all three classes over the past twelve months. They are an utter disgrace: for both service and environment.

Do a roundtrip intercontinental flight with Qatar Airways having done an equivalent distance with a US carrier - and honestly tell me why I as customer, should except Delta's version of luxury or listen to their "level playing field" woes.

Useless.

........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .

[donpizmeov2]

........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .

I'm afraid he's right!

[aueb]

........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .

So based on your statement that service is great because they have very few rights at work does it mean that US crew provide awful service because they are protected by the unions? Is that the purpose of the unions?

[mmorel]

haha, Pilots in US are like cab drivers. Just check how they treat pilots in other countries. on a layover in Asia , Hotels treat captain nice but when you are doing layover in the US , you just have to wait in line like other customers. It's not just about the money it's also about respect. The pilot in ASIA can buy discounted business class ticket while in US you can't even use your airline's network to travel. Domestic tickets in US are so cheap that US crew normally try to buy them in advance .

[thatwasclose]

Well I would suggest that the poor service is an effect of the strong unions . Clearly not the purpose . If you could be fired for not smiling all the time or talking back to a rude person yeah , reckon that's good motivation to smile and always be polite .
As far as respect with pilots in Asia compared to the states .... ah , free travel on most airlines ? Jump seating ? That's pretty respectful . Respect is maintaining my contract , not changing it when the company feels like it . If you want people to see you in awe becasue you are a pilot , cool man , that's your boat . Wear the shiney shiney hat . I would rather have a company respect my contract . Any way , different horses for different courses .

[Sorry Dog]

That video is cringeworthy.

And officially - by any government / business standards - Qatar Airways etc are not subsidised - they are legally invested companies within a sovereign wealth fund.



Any business standard, really?

Well please tell me what business standard is something that is given for free not a subsidy?
Let me spell it out for you then...

In finance, most large loans and /or large deals have a guarantor written into the contract to give the counter parties some recourse in event of default. In the case of a loan, in exchange for this risk sharing the terms of contract will be more favorable to borrower, or basically a lower interest rate. In the case of the ME3 or Qatar especially, the government becomes the guarantor, and in the that case the risk of default becomes extremely small. The price of the loan can then be significantly lower.
In the case of an airline, the 2 largest expenses are financing and fuel. So, we just covered financing. I'll cover fuel later today...

In case you are wondering, I have no connection to Delta or other legacy operators... just calling like I see it.

[donpizmeov2]

Well I would suggest that the poor service is an effect of the strong unions . Clearly not the purpose . If you could be fired for not smiling all the time or talking back to a rude person yeah , reckon that's good motivation to smile and always be polite .
As far as respect with pilots in Asia compared to the states .... ah , free travel on most airlines ? Jump seating ? That's pretty respectful . Respect is maintaining my contract , not changing it when the company feels like it . If you want people to see you in awe becasue you are a pilot , cool man , that's your boat . Wear the shiney shiney hat . I would rather have a company respect my contract . Any way , different horses for different courses .

Respect contracts ... that's an other very good point!

[fliion]

Any business standard, really?

Well please tell me what business standard is something that is given for free not a subsidy?
Let me spell it out for you then...

In finance, most large loans and /or large deals have a guarantor written into the contract to give the counter parties some recourse in event of default. In the case of a loan, in exchange for this risk sharing the terms of contract will be more favorable to borrower, or basically a lower interest rate. In the case of the ME3 or Qatar especially, the government becomes the guarantor, and in the that case the risk of default becomes extremely small. The price of the loan can then be significantly lower.
In the case of an airline, the 2 largest expenses are financing and fuel. So, we just covered financing. I'll cover fuel later today...

In case you are wondering, I have no connection to Delta or other legacy operators... just calling like I see it.

Would Deltas codeshares in SkyTeam that are govt subsidized and thus guarantor also use loans that are significantly lower?

[Dubai2004]

The US and Europe have been subsidizing their farmers from years in order to stop their agriculture business more or less disappearing in the face of cheaper imports. This is also an illegal government subsidy. Has been argued as such for decades by third world countries. Amounts to around 25 Billion a year.

Last time I flew one of those middle East shiny jets they were owned by offshore leasing companies.

Exactly! :D

[Dubai2004]

Americans like to bitch.

Americans are never at fault.

Americans never take responsibilities for the situations they are in.

Americans always need someone to blame.

American businesses run to their government when they can't compete with companies that are simply better than them.

American companies consider paying European taxes as "illegal."

American Pilots spend the majority of their time comparing a country in the middle east to their own and wonder why it is so different!:ugh:

Seriously, go back and join your Delta buddies over there! Do your part and make America great again! From what I can see, you are well on your way with that lunatic in charge.....:rolleyes:

[nolimitholdem]

Americans like to bitch.

Seems like you know something about bitching, all right. Feel better now?

[AAGpilot]

Are you a pilot in the US? Sure post 9/11 the career took a huge hit financially and thus some of the luster has faded. However today's contracts do not even resemble the post bankruptcy/concessionary contracts of the decade passed. I don't know about your experience but I have never waited in line at a hotel. Always went straight to the front to sign in and grab the keys. As far as not being able to use our own companies metal for travel. I'm a commuter so I catch two flights a week to and from work with no problems. I also leave the country every 5 to 6 months on vacation, always international first class. If not my own metal, I walk up to the delta/united/southwest/JetBlue etc gate and list standby. Always met with a smiling flight deck crew that's more than welcoming. Don't know where you're getting this info.

[White Knight]

Well please tell me what business standard is something that is given for free not a subsidy?

A bit like Chapter 11 right?

[thatwasclose]

Dubai 2004
You sound like a really nice guy . So opened minded . Can't wait to share sometime with you on the flight deck .
White knight , yeah , chapter 11 , a bit like dubai refusing to honor its debt in 2009 .

[Sorry Dog]

Would Deltas codeshares in SkyTeam that are govt subsidized and thus guarantor also use loans that are significantly lower?

I do not know enough of the details of this arrangement to make a comparison to the example of financing subsidies used by the ME3. Guaranteed government business could be considered a subsidy of sort, but this is not nearly as blatant as Qatar simply underwriting loans for no cost (underwriting costs money in the western business world). There is a reason that Qatar alone has just as many A350 orders as the 3 US legacy, They can borrow at cheaper rate and also take more risk.
All of the ME3 are using this to varying degrees to create a competitive advantage using newer equipment. Delta for instance is still trying to squeeze the last dime out 15 and 20 year old Mad Dogs. Why? I'm sure the customers would rather ride in new airframes that don't smell like all the funk that the last C check couldn't quite scrape off seat 29C, but when gallon of Jet A costs less than $3 it make more financial sense to keep the old jt9's burning.

Sometime when you have a little bit of time go download 2014-2015 QA annual report and statements. Try to read through the liabilities sections. First thing you might notice is there is total numbers but very little detail as to what accounts and activities are added to various totals. Basically, it's very hard to drill down comparisons to other operators.
Second thing to notice way down the notes sections is a nice little transaction where the company issued 26.7 Billion QR in new shares to the government in exchange for 100% control of a leasing company that was valued at 18.5 Billion QR (23B or so in aircraft - 4.5B of assumed debt) + plus a cash infusion ...excuse me... investment of another 8 Billion.

What this a good deal for the gov't of Qatar?

Who knows... no telling what due diligence was done, but when someone takes a large share of equity in a company you can say they are buying risk in the company in return for a future payout. Look further in the notes you find liabilities in the form of loans only from the government directly, some government agency, or a government controlled bank, but no other type of financing or financial entity. Also there is little detail from which to infer the cost of borrowing or the terms of the loans, with the exception of one loan being listed as libor plus margin (which libor and what margin??) but that loan was noted as retired anyway.

Now the case for Emirates may be different but I also find no coincidence that they are starting to show symptoms of financial stress. In the case of the other two, the more you look, the harder it becomes to argue that they are not operating in a different environment where shareholder profits are less important than other national goals.

[Sorry Dog]

A bit like Chapter 11 right?

I don't recall ever hearing about Chapter 11 being referenced in a business plan as a competitive advantage or as a path to being a *market leader...


*lawyers or law firms not included

[fliion]

I don't recall ever hearing about Chapter 11 being referenced in a business plan as a competitive advantage or as a path to being a *market leader...


*lawyers or law firms not included

'Sorry Dog' speaking of competitive advantage perhaps you can shed some light on this.

Delta spent $450m investing in a 3.55% share of China Eastern in 2015, an airline underwritten by the Chinese govt and thus able to benefit from the buying power of said govt.

To underscore this, yesterday the the Chinese govt through the China Aviation Supplies Holding Company ordered 140 Airbus aircraft (100 320's & 40 350's) at a value of $23bn. The CAS Co has not yet revealed who these aircraft will be allocated to. China Eastern et al don't buy these aircraft- the Chinese govt do on their behalf.

This is a prime example of a govt directly underwriting and supporting a Chinese airline that Delta is a shareholder of. The pricing power of the govt purchase also reduces the price of these govt supported airlines pay as against purely commercial entities in Asia that must compete with the Chinese on Asia/EU & Asia/US routes.

Because China Eastern is part owned by Delta and a code share with Delta - this govt subsidy is obviously not an issue for Delta.

The Chinese govt supporting the growth of Chinese airlines is in the national interests of China. Fair enough, not any different than other countries I can think of.

So why is it ok in Delta's view - for the Chinese govt to subsidize an airline they partly own - if they are against govt subsidies?

Note: Wikipedia- China Eastern Airlines Group, is a state-owned enterprise that was supervised by State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council.

[Matvey]

Stop talking pseudo patriotic crap.

American jobs really? Did you not see the part where Ed Bastian talks about buying more widebodies and going back to India if they can protect Delta - and then the video shows an AIRBUS 330!

Wtf! Way to support the 787 line,AMERICAN jobs eh?
At least that A330 is built by union members...

[fliion]

As are the 380 & 777X

👍👍👍😉

[4runner]

4runner,
go back to school!

It is not about average income or gross national product.
It is about inequality.

Some 53,8 % of the Mexicans live below the poverty line.
They are modern day slaves in the USA like the workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Philippines, Ethopia, etc... in the Middle East.
You Americans have a nice live based on their misery.
Point.

Start here:
https://borgenproject.org/mexico-poverty-rate/:suspect:

Back to school? I don't need another degree. Telling someone to go back to school is a poor reply and childish. Your agenda is most transparent. You're anti-American and once again, drawing tangents to your thinly veiled temper tantrum. So now American is collectively responsible for the poverty level of a neighboring failed state? A person that comes to America under their own volition and works illegally is a slave? Yet a person who works in the ME but cannot vote, unionize, leave freely, conceive child, practice their religion or get married without permission is better off? Keep drawing the tangents...

[sirwa69]

Not just the routes they are taking. Qatar Airways (and every other person in the world pronouces it Katar) own 20% of BA parent IAG and they also own 20% of LHR where the weasel is on the board of directors.

[Bidule]

Any business standard, really?

In finance, most large loans and /or large deals have a guarantor written into the contract to give the counter parties some recourse in event of default.

Just to add to other replies already posted.
If your statement would be correct, there would be a very low number of loans! By the way, should it be correct, how do you explain September 2008 finance crisis and all these large, well managed US banks going burst?

[mmorel]

Only pilot has union in United states. What do you want to say about other jobs in united states? Like software engineers ? They do not have any unions and they fired them without giving them any notice because they find cheaper labour from india to replace them. Trust me 3 big airlines in united states do not like unions and maybe in future there won't be unions for Pilots in United States . Just look at other industries and you will find out.



Back to school? I don't need another degree. Telling someone to go back to school is a poor reply and childish. Your agenda is most transparent. You're anti-American and once again, drawing tangents to your thinly veiled temper tantrum. So now American is collectively responsible for the poverty level of a neighboring failed state? A person that comes to America under their own volition and works illegally is a slave? Yet a person who works in the ME but cannot vote, unionize, leave freely, conceive child, practice their religion or get married without permission is better off? Keep drawing the tangents...

[mmorel]

Can you buy discounted business class ticket from your airline? The answer is no. We can get discounted business class on many airlines such as Lufthansa, Etihad, ... . I have lots of friends works for American airline, United and Delta and they can not buy a business or first class ticket.

Are you a pilot in the US? Sure post 9/11 the career took a huge hit financially and thus some of the luster has faded. However today's contracts do not even resemble the post bankruptcy/concessionary contracts of the decade passed. I don't know about your experience but I have never waited in line at a hotel. Always went straight to the front to sign in and grab the keys. As far as not being able to use our own companies metal for travel. I'm a commuter so I catch two flights a week to and from work with no problems. I also leave the country every 5 to 6 months on vacation, always international first class. If not my own metal, I walk up to the delta/united/southwest/JetBlue etc gate and list standby. Always met with a smiling flight deck crew that's more than welcoming. Don't know where you're getting this info.

[Jack330]

Every single job in US has unions, even the waiters and believe me, they are very powerful and less dirty than other ones.

Only pilot has union in United states. What do you want to say about other jobs in united states? Like software engineers ? They do not have any unions and they fired them without giving them any notice because they find cheaper labour from india to replace them. Trust me 3 big airlines in united states do not like unions and maybe in future there won't be unions for Pilots in United States . Just look at other industries and you will find out.

[mmorel]

Facebook, Google, Sprint, T-mobile and ... do not have unions. They fire or lay off people without any warnings. Just check the news. They bring new graduate and ask them to learn everything from seniors before asking them to leave the company. it's happening every day in US.

here is the link:
https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/29/why-labor-unions-and-silicon-valley-arent-friends-in-2-charts/
Every single job in US has unions, even the waiters and believe me, they are very powerful and less dirty than other ones.

[Neptune Spear]

Apart from that cheesy video Delta produced working for Delta is far and above better than working for EK. No comparison. In fact I don't know what one can compare between the two Airlines.
Subsidies, accounting tricks, lease backs, free trade and cheesy videos are not really our department as pilots. Pilot to pilot who would want to fly for Emirates?The work hours, the amount of work and the pay are all detrimental to a pilots Quality of Life. Get out of the sand if you know what is good for you and your family.

[fliion]

Apart from that cheesy video Delta produced working for Delta is far and above better than working for EK. No comparison. In fact I don't know what one can compare between the two Airlines.
Subsidies, accounting tricks, lease backs, free trade and cheesy videos are not really our department as pilots. Pilot to pilot who would want to fly for Emirates?The work hours, the amount of work and the pay are all detrimental to a pilots Quality of Life. Get out of the sand if you know what is good for you and your family.

Neptune of all the members on here who have lived both - your posts have always been objective, thoughtful and considerate.

I can't argue with your logic or argument - purely the video.

[Sorry Dog]

Just to add to other replies already posted.
If your statement would be correct, there would be a very low number of loans! By the way, should it be correct, how do you explain September 2008 finance crisis and all these large, well managed US banks going burst?

So you want me to explain the financial crisis?? While I would not call myself an expert it so happens I have studied the subject some...however I'm not sure pages of posts on that subject would work out well here....

I will say this, there were major lapses in regulation, policy, and corporate governance that all contributed to the meltdown. In my opinion, many of fundamental problems remain, especially in the area of corporate governance. Making decisions based on short term bonuses often at the expense of long-term performance remains huge problem in my opinion. In fact, this could even apply to the conversation about the ME3 as some of the recent reports make one wonder.... several of the threads about EK back this up.

[UAL777]

Every single job in US has unions, even the waiters and believe me, they are very powerful and less dirty than other ones.

Union jobs are declining in the USA. Pilots are among the few groups which are still unionized, fortunately.

[bafanguy]

Union jobs are declining in the USA.

Yep...

“The union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of
unions--was 10.7 percent in 2016, down 0.4 percentage point from 2015, the U.S. Bureau
of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of wage and salary workers belonging to
unions, at 14.6 million in 2016, declined by 240,000 from 2015. In 1983, the first
year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was
20.1 percent, and there were 17.7 million union workers.“



https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

[Thaihawk]

The US and Europe have been subsidizing their farmers from years in order to stop their agriculture business more or less disappearing in the face of cheaper imports. This is also an illegal government subsidy. Has been argued as such for decades by third world countries. Amounts to around 25 Billion a year.

Last time I flew one of those middle East shiny jets they were owned by offshore leasing companies.

And these illegal agricultural subsidies have driven third world farmers to the wall.

[Thaihawk]

This is a general attitude in this part of the world!
When they wanted to attack Vietnam they invented the Gulf of Tonkin fake story...then they invented Saddam Hussein massive destruction weapons to attack Irak...these guys keep lying to the face of the world considered as their own business field,supported by yellow wigged "president"

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of this video.

[nolimitholdem]

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of this video.

5th page of the thread, yep, seems about right. All the discussion was missing was a little Reductio ad Goebbelum. Good work, Thaihawk.

Godwin's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[The Outlaw]

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of this video.

C'mon...say how you really feel, were all adults here...

How does it go again? Is it " Hi Himmel? "High Hitlist"? " ...something like that.

Since you're a master on what the Nazi's seem to like, please elaborate further....or is that fürher?

[Thaihawk]

C'mon...say how you really feel, were all adults here...

How does it go again? Is it " Hi Himmel? "High Hitlist"? " ...something like that.

Since you're a master on what the Nazi's seem to like, please elaborate further....or is that fürher?

Maybe a bit over the top, but certainly worthy of the spin put out by the British Labour party spin doctors under Alister Campbell, insomuch that the truth was somewhat stretched. And thay's putting it diplomatically.

[tsgas]

while a joke when you think of how AA, DL ,UA ,CO, NW, and other US carriers cheated the system with their chapter 11 filings . 10's of thousands of airline employees and creditors where taken to the cleaners.

[Marlon Brando]

I'd take the granny with a brain over the 22 year old without.

....

pervert

...

[The Outlaw]

pervert

...

As opposed to children? I won't even dignify that one with comment.

However removable teeth does have benefits....

[Marlon Brando]

However removable teeth does have benefits....


definitly a pervert !

[nolimitholdem]

Most of the 22 YO FAs I have spoken with speak 2-3 languages and have a degree. They are not the ditsy blondes you imagine, and are far more capable than given credit for on this site.

"Most" of those 22-year olds are multi-lingual and educated...right. Oh brother. Yes, they're all mensa members and Phd's. Hence, they chose "flight attendant" as their profession. :rolleyes:

Sure, there are some very accomplished cabin crew amongst the 20,000+...I should know, I married one with a degree...in medicine. But get real. It's bs to claim that they're not outliers. Most are far better at interacting with a smartphone than a person. 32 is the new 22, and 22 is more like about 12.

Not picking on the females, btw, the males of the species are probably worse.

[The Outlaw]

Marlon,

15 will get you 20, keep that in mind when you go on your next date!

Daddy might have a shotgun too.

[The Outlaw]

Most of the 22 YO FAs I have spoken with speak 2-3 languages and have a degree. They are not the ditsy blondes you imagine, and are far more capable than given credit for on this site.

HA HA HA...Yes of course I talked to them as well once. There was a few doctors, lawyers and rocket scientists who went to school to study 8+ years and decided that being cabin crew at EK was a better vocation! BIG RED FLAG !
I'm not saying they are all uneducated either but many come with "issues" and "baggage", so are just full of sh..

PS: BS can mean a few different things.


For your benefit:

BS |ˌbēˈes|
abbreviation

1 US Bachelor of Science.
2 balance sheet.
3 Blessed Sacrament.
4 North American vulgar slang used as a euphemism for “bull****.”

[White Knight]

decided that being cabin crew at EK was a better vocation! BIG RED FLAG !

For a lot of them its a paid way of seeing the world. Notwithstanding the punishing rosters but if you're young then why not for three years?

Funnily enough many pilots here are 'just so full of sh..' too to use your own phrase!:rolleyes:

[Praise Jebus]

One for you Outlaw...

https://youtu.be/IEgaQEprZnI

[yankeefly]

Just out of curiosity, is the reason so many US carriers do so much heavy maintenance in developing countries because they are trying to protect US jobs?
Cheers.

[Farrell]

My AA flight from New York to Las Vegas

"There is no USB power in these seats, sir"

"Sorry, we have no linens today, sir." (Places square of paper towel on tray.)

"The food for this flight is the same as Economy, sir."

"This flight has no amenity kit, sir."

"Tut!" (When asked for a bottle of water.)

http://travelupdate.boardingarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/10907.jpg

The driver seat in my Range Rover is more comfortable!
http://az413908.vo.msecnd.net/99/photos/201510/1420/2247/9aa324c1-f46d-4ed6-96ee-ad551d1dfa0e.jpg

and the Middle East 6 hour flight "equivalent":

https://damhyul3s75yv.cloudfront.net/photos/10911/original_Upgrade_to_Business_Class_on_Etihad_Flight.JPG

And the non-government subsidised Asian "equivalent" To blow up that argument:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d7/a2/d0/d7a2d089c35d9e9b2c6ff12422838254--airbus-a-business-class.jpg

I'll give my support to US carriers when they can provide a competitive product and service, but they won't get another dollar of mine unless I have exhausted all other options.

[The Outlaw]

One for you Outlaw...

https://youtu.be/IEgaQEprZnI

Get your head examined.

[Flyboy_SG]

Sensible...

"Most" of those 22-year olds are multi-lingual and educated...right. Oh brother. Yes, they're all mensa members and Phd's. Hence, they chose "flight attendant" as their profession. :rolleyes:

Sure, there are some very accomplished cabin crew amongst the 20,000+...I should know, I married one with a degree...in medicine. But get real. It's bs to claim that they're not outliers. Most are far better at interacting with a smartphone than a person. 32 is the new 22, and 22 is more like about 12.

Not picking on the females, btw, the males of the species are probably worse.

[Flyboy_SG]

The fact will remain the same. These airlines will continue to grow coz of the low cost fuel, labour(including pilots) and the so called illegal subsidies. But they are efficient, making good bucks and not just flying to establish their position in the market. Like someone aptly said, this is not a pilots cup of coffee.

[donpizmeov2]

The fact will remain the same. These airlines will continue to grow coz of the low cost fuel, labour(including pilots) and the so called illegal subsidies. But they are efficient, making good bucks and not just flying to establish their position in the market. Like someone aptly said, this is not a pilots cup of coffee.

No western airline will ever be able to compete with the ticket prize of the M3 ... look for yourself! IAD-BKK return for 500$... how can you produce profit? with the cargo ... horse sh#$t!

[pilotguy1222]

No western airline will ever be able to compete with the ticket prize of the M3 ... look for yourself! IAD-BKK return for 500$... how can you produce profit? with the cargo ... horse sh#$t!

Link or it didn't happen.

I just check 4 different travel sites. Cheapest EK flight as you mentioned was over $1300. DL was the cheapest at $1022.

[Flyboy_SG]

Exactly, flights from Asia to US, probably BA or TK used to be the cheapest. Not the ME3. Their product comes at a cost. IMHO EK is paying off Dubais debts.

[donpizmeov2]

Link or it didn't happen.

I just check 4 different travel sites. Cheapest EK flight as you mentioned was over $1300. DL was the cheapest at $1022.

I know we feel important but M3 isn't only EK!

[777boyo]

Don,

"how can you produce profit?"

Its called Marginal Cost Pricing, which in simple terms means that as long as the ticket price covers the incremental cost of carrying the extra passenger and his bags,(some additional fuel, catering, admin cost of ticketing/reservation etc), then its worth taking the extra pax at that apparently very low fare because any revenue above these incremental costs is a contribution to overall revenue (not technically profit, because that comes after a further contribution is made to overheads or fixed costs).

The danger comes when the airline is selling too many tickets based on this principle. While its possible, its highly unlikely there would be many seats available at these very low fares, and its all based on the principle that once the aircraft door is closed for departure, any empty seat is a wasted revenue earning opportunity - as I'm sure you know. Last minute sale of upgrades at check in at knock down rates is based on the same idea. Airline Revenue Optimization/Capacity control departments assess how many seats they can release at these low fares without diluting overall revenue and its become a hugely complex function.

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious or teaching granny to suck eggs......

7B

[glofish]

Its called Marginal Cost Pricing

I'd rather call it damage control.
Almost all airlines are in that mode today, with different weapons. Delta goes down the donaldesque video path, EK tries to contain the shamelessly aping neighbour by dangerous political means and AAB picks a fight with grannies.

It's a dirty war and not one of the protagonists stands on morally higher grounds.

[AfricanSkies]

ME3 govt-subsidized? It's a private government, not subsidized by the citizen taxpayers, and it's a private-government owned airline so it's a private airline.

In the US where the citizens subsidize the government, private companies receive no government subsidies, unions are strong, the product is poor, the prices high and the profits are weak.

In the ME, where the citizens pay no tax, the airlines are run by the government and unions are non existent, the product is excellent, the prices good and the profits high.

[donpizmeov2]

ME3 govt-subsidized? It's a private government, not subsidized by the citizen taxpayers, and it's a private-government owned airline so it's a private airline.

In the US where the citizens subsidize the government, private companies receive no government subsidies, unions are strong, the product is poor, the prices high and the profits are weak.

In the ME, where the citizens pay no tax, the airlines are run by the government and unions are non existent, the product is excellent, the prices good and the profits high.

Are you trying to say "absolute monarchy" is more effective than democracies?

[Talparc]

African Skies:

And thats all done while you as a worker pay the price.

[Visual Procedures]

Are you trying to say "absolute monarchy" is more effective than democracies?

More effective? Without a doubt. You want something done, it will be done. No land owners demanding fair pay for the land, no environmental studies required, no NIMBYs to clog up the 6 o'clock news.

Is it better? Depends on who the Absolute Monarch is :E

[donpizmeov2]

More effective? Without a doubt. You want something done, it will be done. No land owners demanding fair pay for the land, no environmental studies required, no NIMBYs to clog up the 6 o'clock news.

Is it better? Depends on who the Absolute Monarch is :E

Is it better to eat a chicken today or an egg tomorrow?

[AfricanSkies]

It's absolutely more effective. Look at the results. As for workers paying the price, we get paid more here than we do at home. And we don't pay tax to a non performing government.

Way to go.

[donpizmeov2]

It's absolutely more effective. Look at the results. As for workers paying the price, we get paid more here than we do at home. And we don't pay tax to a non performing government.

Way to go.

..."home"? What's your idea for "home"?

[Trader]

AfricanSkies. Exactly. It is a private company/government. They can do what they want. In which case I see no issues with the Americans (or anyone else) doing what THEY want! If that means keeping the ME3 out then so be it. Or does your analogy only work in one direction??

[AfricanSkies]

I thought the argument here was over subsidies, not about open skies agreements.

The ME3 aren't subsidized. They're owned by the (private) government.

Similar to many other flag carriers. Yet I don't see Delta arguing for restrictions on South African Airways or PIA etc.

Its only because the ME3 have a better product at a better price, and are killing the weaker competition that the likes of Delta are squealing.

Delta et al arguing for the US government to restrict these better performing airlines is in effect a request for non financial 'subsidy' isn't it?

[nolimitholdem]

Whenever I hear people singing the praises of dictatorships, benign or otherwise, I always think, "be careful what you wish for".

History is full of wonderful leaders who certainly were "effective"...Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot certainly "got things done".

Not totally convinced their systems were superior, however.

But hey at least you don't pay tax, so there's that. Well, not until next year anyway.

[White Knight]

But hey at least you don't pay tax, so there's that. Well, not until next year anyway.

Do keep up old chap. There's been tax in Dubai for all of the years I've been here... Booze, hotels, Salik to name a few.

Funny how some folks like to keep on 'sniffing' around the ME forum:rolleyes:

[donpizmeov2]

AfricanSkies. Exactly. It is a private company/government. They can do what they want. In which case I see no issues with the Americans (or anyone else) doing what THEY want! If that means keeping the ME3 out then so be it. Or does your analogy only work in one direction??

And this can happen especially in this historical moment where you are allowed to be racist again (at least for the next 3 year)!

[pilotguy1222]

I know we feel important but M3 isn't only EK!

To true, but specify at least. I am tired of arguing with monkeys about "dumping seats" when I fly into the US full and with ticket prices far higher than the US3 and their code share partners.

If someone wants to bring up the unmentionable one, or the other with one with government money pouring in, do so. The only thing related to EK and the ME3 is the "ME". None of all the other unproven BS being tossed out by the US3 is even relevant to EK.

[paokara]

To true, but specify at least. I am tired of arguing with monkeys about "dumping seats" when I fly into the US full and with ticket prices far higher than the US3 and their code share partners.

If someone wants to bring up the unmentionable one, or the other with one with government money pouring in, do so.



The only thing related to EK and the ME3 is the "ME". None of all the other unproven BS being tossed out by the US3 is even relevant to EK.















74% load factor by EK is not full
Check their numbers

[Mr Mac]

Humble SLF
I think the people talking about US carriers are missing the point. The product both hard and soft is just not good enough. You can go on about govt support and everything else but even the soft product is poor in comparison. I travel a fair bit and tend to use 3 carriers SQ/LH/EK for all long haul travel. The US carriers are not in the same league as the above in either faculty. Also I would point out that as I am UK based, I would also say BA has also lost my business for the same reason,s, combined with the fact that they are London centric and I chose to live in the north where BA have just about abandoned us anyway !
To sum up if the US customer service reverted to somthing like it used to be when I first started traveling over there when I was a student (and we are talking about mid 1970,s) then you might start to see some improvment, but the only thing I have noticed over the intervening years when I have to go there (I tend to get work in swathes there so approx 10 year gaps) has been the race to the bottom by all of them. Slick advertisment like that does not make it any better, just shows the oposition you are worried that you are not good enough.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Farrell]

Slick advertisment like that does not make it any better, just shows the oposition you are worried that you are not good enough.


Beautifully put.