Question re extending downwind.

[Beethoven]

Quick question to gather opinions on how to deal with the following, assuming A/G or AFIS if I may. I'm on downwind, preparing to turn base but I am aware of an A/C on final which I cannot see. in order not to cut this A/c up I would assume one would extend downwind until the A/C on final passes abeam. However I am aware that extending downwind is often seen as bad form (disruption of circuit size...noise abatement etc.) and am curious to know how to deal with this situation without extending downwind. Indeed one of our runway's downwind would take you into controlled airspace if you extended it by very much!
My concern is in the event of a non-sighting of the aircraft at all (as has happened to me a few times) would anyone turn base NOT having seen the aircraft pass them?

Would there be any (safe) way to I initiate a go-around from the late or extended downwind position back into the circuit without possibly conflicting with the unseen aircraft on final. I have heard people say that a go- around from here is simply to fly the circuit pattern at circuit height without descending but to me that implies still turning base in front of the AC on final and hoping it is not going to go-around and thus cause conflict, or even possibly it is on a very steep straight-in. I am very much aware of the use of RT in these situations but all too often it proves inaccurate.

Thanks in anticipation.

[9 lives]

Beethoven, fair question.

If a "long final" aircraft has the potential to conflict with your normal circuit, yes, extend your downwind, it's not worth the conflict, even if by some slim chance you could assert "right of way" to the runway. If extending is not practical, then yes, just fly a wide circuit without descending, and rejoin for your second attempt. As you will be above, and hopefully a little behind the other "long final" aircraft, you should be able to keep it in view. Your position confers right of way to land [first] to that aircraft - even if they have been discourteous with circuit manners. If you feel the need to express your concern about the situation, that is better done later on the ground, than in real time in the circuit.

Do not assume that an aircraft which is already not well positioned will suddenly get it right, and yield to your right of way. And, compelling them to do that could result in a worse situation overall, or worse, if they are emergency landing, and you don't know that. If you're aware, and in control, yield, and you maintain safe separation. If doing so has cause you to fly an unusually long downwind, which is not in conflict with other airspace/traffic, the aircraft which may be following you must allow for this, and follow you.

I hope that helps....

[Jan Olieslagers]

My own idea would be to continue the circuit as intended. If the other chap(pess) is already on final, (s)he is sure to have gone by the time I get to final. And at any rate I can and must check runway availability before putting down...

One big caveat, however, a situation I lived one day: someone reported base when I has halfway downwind. I had got the plane in sight, separation was ample, so I continued the circuit as published (it is rather strict at that place). When turning final however I had the fright of my life when another plane turned up from my right - he had been in the circuit, unobserved by me, and he did have extended his downwind. I am sure he must have been nordo - which is allowed at said field.

[piperboy84]

At uncontrolled fields regardless of there being an AG service I make position calls starting 10 miles out and the usual circuit calls all the way down to short final then when clear of runway just like I would if at a field with no other traffic or AG, this hopefully prompts the other guy(s) to respond in kind giving you an indication of where to look to attain visual contact (which I would deem mandatory for safety prior to turning base). If the other guy has no radio or is not the talkative type and I still did not have a visual I would again self announce that I was extended my downwind till I received either confirmation he was on the deck or had him in sight and I was safe to turn base. If airspace prevents continuing down wind I would self announce prior to commencing a 360 turn to the outside of pattern and again prior to rejoining the downwind midfield, then commence the talking and looking process again till visual with the other traffic or repeat the 360. Bottom line I am not going to fly in a direction or altitude that could put me on a collision course. If I ain't visual with other traffic I ain't going there.

Once on the ground I would with the upmost respect suggest to the "straight in" guy that perhaps if he was bent on doing straight in's while others are in the pattern a bit proactive position reports regardless of what the AG is doing would be extremely helpful. The AG is for field advisorys only, my understanding is they are NOT in any way responsible nor should be relied upon for separation or traffic management. It's uncontrolled VFR, see and avoid, that is entirely your responsibility.

[NorthSouth]

Seems to me if you're about to turn base and you know another aircraft's on final, in normal circumstances you won't reach final for about another minute, by which time the other aircraft will be a mile or so further down final. So you could only conflict if he was two or more miles out when you became aware of him.

Whether AG or AFIS, that aircraft should have been informed about other circuit traffic when he called for join, and if he was told the circuit's active, should have done an overhead join.

People joining straight-in when they either don't listen or don't care about other traffic are being very selfish as well as dangerous.

[Jan Olieslagers]

And you may listen for all you're worth, if the other one is nordo either by nature of following a defect or even through neglicence (still tuned to previous field, perhaps) then you will hear nothing zero nada niente.

[Mariner9]

Quite simple, the rude pilot on a straight in approach on long final should immediately be executed on landing. (Yes I know there is nothing in the OP's post that says or even suggests that the pilot on final was rude, or was on a long final, (though there's a suggestion admittedly he may have been on a straight in) but he's been found guilty on all three counts by the Pprune jury above lol)

With regards to the OP's question regarding a safe G/A from downwind, I'd probably climb straight ahead then once 1000' higher turn in circuit direction to rejoin via overhead. However in the situation described, Id probably slow down while constsntly trying to spot traffic, extend downwind a bit if necessary, then turn base before controlled airspace and g/a from that point if traffic still not spotted. Cant ever recall having to do that though - you generally spot the traffic eventually

[piperboy84]

Quite simple, the rude pilot on a straight in approach on long final should immediately be executed on landing. (Yes I know there is nothing in the OP's post that says or even suggests that the pilot on final was rude, or was on a long final, (though there's a suggestion admittedly he may have been on a straight in) but he's been found guilty on all three counts by the Pprune jury above lol)

Well if he's not guilty of doing a straight-in but is far enough out on final you can't see him from the downwind he must be doing one of those wide "747 circuits" in which case the bastard deserves to be denutted and stoned to death.

[BEagle]

I was once supervising 4 solo students in the visual circuit who were coping just fine, sticking to the rules and not getting in each others' way. Then a fifth aircraft announced that it was 'joining visual, straight-in'....

I told the controller to advise it that there were 3 in the circuit, one about to land and to 'join deadside'.

Which it did, fitting in and landing off its first approach.

It was a Queen's Flight corgi-carrier 146 positioning back after ferrying Air Miles Andy to some pi$$-up or other. The captain saw my CFI in the bar and tried to make some snide comment, only to be told to read the Flying Order Book and to be grateful that he wasn't told to hold off with the circuit full.

The visual circuit should be predictable; my teaching was never to extend beyond a point which corresponded to base leg for a flapless circuit, if that was looking unlikely then go around at circuit height and cross to the dead side.

Joining straight-in and calling final from outside the ATZ is only ever acceptable if there's no other traffic.

[Mariner9]

Well if he's not guilty of doing a straight-in but is far enough out on final you can't see him from the downwind he must be doing one of those wide "747 circuits" in which case the bastard deserves to be denutted and stoned to death.

As the defence attorney, I submit in mitigation that the sentence should be reduced to removal of only a single nut before being stoned to death given that he at least made a radio call.

[piperboy84]

As the defence attorney, I submit in mitigation that the sentence should be reduced to removal of only a single nut before being stoned to death given that he at least made a radio call.

Alright Mr Defense Lawyer I'll accept a plea bargain down to one nut and a poleaxing prior to the stoning

[Martin_123]

I think i've only been in similar situation twice in bad haze, in both occasions I asked the AC on final to report their altitude, in both cases they were at some 300-400 ft and descending. For me that tells me where to look because you roughly know where you need to be at 300 ft from runway to maintain a half decent approach angle and that helped me spot them and decide on my next steps. If you cant see them and they're not talking to you, I would only extend if there's no-one else in the circuit or if the other party is also happy to extend. Communication is the key, I think.

[pilotjimbo]

Make Left/Right (depending on circuit direction) orbit's at the end of the downwind leg until you are sure the landing traffic has passed?

Having learn't/continuing to fly from a busy single-runway airport with airline traffic, I've become all to familiar to your scenario. The only difference here is, I've been under control from at ATCO rather than communication with an A/G or AFIS.

I have quite often been on downwind, under the impression I'm the only circuit traffic, and number 1 for landing… and suddenly a revenue flight gets passed from Radar to Tower, which instantly has priorty over GA traffic. Controller tells me to make one/two/till advised orbits at the end of the downwind leg. Whilst annoying, it works.

I understand that under an A/G or AFIS service, it may be a little more impractical, but better than ploughing into CAS?
If the circuit is ram packed, then yes, not practical either…

[Peter Geldard]

In the States it is quite usual for a person to extend their downwind to allow someone to land/vacate the runway.
This is usually announced as: "Call my base" i.e. telling the person who is extending downwind when it is clear for them to turn on to final.

[BackPacker]

In the States it is quite usual for a person to extend their downwind to allow someone to land/vacate the runway.
This is usually announced as: "Call my base" i.e. telling the person who is extending downwind when it is clear for them to turn on to final.

What I find in Europe in general is that as soon as a radio frequency is formally designated as "Radio" or "Info", all of a sudden pilots become afraid to talk to each other, and instead assume that everything has to go via the poor bloke sitting in the clubhouse, with no visual on the circuit.

That radio frequency is first and foremost a safety device. If you need it to verify someones position, use it. And if you don't know the proper ICAO/CAPwhatever phraseology, use plain English.

"Aircraft on final, I'm late downwind, do you have me in sight? Can you call me when abeam?"

"Aircraft on final, I don't have you in sight. Can you wiggle your wings and turn your landing light on?"

In this respect, the Traffic/Unicom frequency in the US at least offers a far easier premise: "There's nobody on the ground to help you, so TALK TO EACH OTHER!"

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Backpacker: yes, I generally agree, but it does vary between fields. Largely generalising: French speaking pilots seem to find it quite natural to address one another, and I've heard them do so quite casually and to good effect. And I'd not be surprised to find the same in Italy, Spain, Portugal. German speakers OTOH seem to prefer a central authority...

Still, I should like to warn against the use of non-standard phraseology. Or do we need to be reminded why ELP was introduced..? :(

And even more prominent, again: not every aeroplane carries a radio, or to good use.

[bingofuel]

Would there be any (safe) way to I initiate a go-around from the late or extended downwind position back into the circuit without possibly conflicting with the unseen aircraft on final.

Yes, maintain circuit height, fly a standard base and final and call 'going around' and position slightly to the deadside as normal to watch for conflicting traffic then continue with a normal circuit. Extending downwind really just makes the situation worse for everyone else.

[TheOddOne]

Make Left/Right (depending on circuit direction) orbit's at the end of the downwind leg until you are sure the landing traffic has passed?

I have to say that's the one 'no-no' in this thread. I know some controllers are still instructing traffic to do this, but after the sad, fatal accident at Southend I thought it had dramatically reduced. (C150 on final was instructed to orbit to allow a faster aircraft on a straight-in to land. The 1st solo student spun in half way round the orbit, as I recall.)

In my view, the safe procedure is to continue to fly the circuit, only at circuit height/altitude, until regaining a safely spaced position downwind.

TOO

[gasax]

When I was training, something of a long time ago, I recall one afternoon where the controller at the barely regional airport have three of us orbiting in the circuit so he could give a scheduled flight a straight in approach - pretty dumb at what was essentially a training field.

I'm with The oddone - never orbit - bluntly - how is that aligning with the circuit direction?

Equally I've just come back from a French airfield that mixes GA, parachuting, gliding, ULMs and radio models all in the same space - talking becomes really quite important when the tower is not manned!

[Piper.Classique]

Used to fly a tug at Lasham. On a fairly busy day we would have four or five tugs launching gliders off the main runway, two twin drum winches launching gliders off the grass next to the runway, and of course the tugs coming back for the next customer. Some of the gliders came back, some went off cross country, and some stayed local for a while. Then they landed.
We had one launch marshal controlling the takeoffs via radio to the winches and tugs. The tug drivers listened and rolled when they got the command to go. The winch drivers also had the benefit of a flashing light, as well as the radio. The cars bringing the cables back were sent off by the winch drivers. Landings were either side of the runway, which is fairly long, anywhere you could get in without crossing to the other side on base leg.
Most gliders were non radio. Just as well, really, as how would you get a word in edgeways anyway.
Oh, and I forgot the motor glider doing circuits.
Teaches a decent look out, at least. Then we would get the C152 leaving the maintenance base calling for take off instructions. Or, even better, making full circuit calls. 😂

[Maoraigh1]

I did my 30 hour PPL in the summer of 1964 at the Wiltshire Aero Club / Flying School at Thruxton Airfield.
Six Jackeroos, and 2 or more Piper Colts, all non-radio, all training, near to Middle Wallop where the Army Air Core trained on Austers. No Air Traffic service of any kind, as the tower was offices. No light signals. Just the Signal Square and windsock.
When flying you almost always had other aircraft in sight, so your brain knew what to look for.

[NorthSouth]

:ok: Who needs technology!

[Ebbie 2003]

Here we get controlled all the time in the circuit - routinely we get instructed to extend "extend the downwind...and, caution wake turbulence" for landing air busses - the distance of the extension can be rather "silly".

Last Sunday after a flit around the island we swapped pilots for my friend to do some touch and goes - we managed two in 40 minutes - at one point "in the circuit" on the extended downwind we were 7.6 miles DME from the airport. The T&G's were in between a BA and an Air Canada so it does explain it - but the instruction to extend is rather odd as we could have got in and out again easily, but it pays to be safe rather than sorry.

On elected to go extend downwind, I don't see the issue so long as one climbs, but then once well above circuit height is one actually in the circuit?

[FullWings]

from the OP:
I'm on downwind, preparing to turn base but I am aware of an A/C on final which I cannot see.
As others have said, try asking the other aircraft where they are? (Assuming radios fitted)

There is always the option, if you lose SA (or never had it) on other circuit traffic, to leave the circuit entirely, both laterally and vertically and rejoin later. It probably won’t be much of a difference in eventual landing time. Throwing in random orbits, excessively long downwind legs and/or going through the overhead at circuit height appears to be more likely to lead to conflicts, if you read the UKAB reports...

[Piltdown Man]

At an uncontrolled airfield it is beholden on the arriving aircraft to confirm with the existing traffic. Yes of course it awfully convenient to join on a straight in, but you can't expect others to move out of your way. Therefore, I'd stick to the normal circuit and keep a good lookout.

PM

[Beethoven]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond, I have taken lots from this thread that will help inform my decision-making/conflict resolution. Ultimately the golden rule is don't hit anyone, remain predictable and inform circuit traffic if having to do something unexpected. Perhaps a trip to spec-savers too.

[noflynomore]

If anyone's going to orbit for spacing then its the guy joining on finals. No way should they expect circuit traffic to disrupt or modify their pattern.
On the other hand if the "circuit" is a vast as some I have seen the poor fella's hardly going to be able to tell if anyone's in it. Circuit traffic have an obligation to maintain a proper sized circuit too, and that means within flapless gliding distance of the field at the base turn.

[mary meagher]

Rented C172, departed from Albert Whitted, St. Pete, Florida, for sightseeing.

Having explored the shoreline for a while, returned to the appropriate place for telling ATC that I would like to join the "Pattern" to land. Tower said come on in, traffic ahead of you. Not just the usual traffic, it was two small peculiar aircraft together, at about 45 mph, heading in on 36. So I said to the Tower, I would like to maneuver for spacing from the traffic, and did a very nice 360.
Only trouble, back on the usual approach line for 36, the two little aircraft had vanished! where did they go?

To my surprise, they had completely altered their pattern, and were now on approach to runway 27! So I told the tower that I also now planned to use 27 and follow the traffic, that was approved. All very relaxed, not all that busy.
But even not busy, so important to KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! I hadn't heard the tower mention it would be a different runway....

LOOKOUT IS MOST IMPORTANT! and communication can be helpful in knowing where to look.

[Maoraigh1]

[QUOTE][If anyone's going to orbit for spacing then its the guy joining on finals. No way should they expect circuit traffic to disrupt or modify their pattern/QUOTE]
The two most important​ things​ at an uncontrolled airfield are to avoid colliding with another aircraft, and to avoid losing control of your aircraft.
A lawyer can fix other problems.

[mary meagher]

Tangoalphad, St. Pete Florida airport is controlled. So we inform the tower of our position, our intentions, and do nothing without permission. My orbit for spacing had been approved.

The change of runway implied that if the other traffic had completed their approach and landing on 27, and I was still arriving on 36, it could be messy.

Always a good idea to let other traffic know what you intend. And at a controlled airport, you are required to do as the controller requests!

In a rented aircraft, always possible that the radio connections are not working properly, so verify any instruction that doesn't make sense.

[mikehallam]

Mary,

An interesting comment from you above.
If it really was "controlled" as effectively as you think it was that day, why didn't their ATC question your call sign as to why the r/way change hadn't been acknowledged ? Seeing as they were already exchanging positional RT stuff with you and knew your were taking steps to remain #2 to the small 'planes.

Ergo it wasn't quite so controlled as even you fondly thought so as ever it's back to the PIC in more ways than one - precisely as you have explained.

Ergo, don't trust any system even if 'it should be' i/c.

mike hallam (grass strip operator England)