Pax point out hole in Air Berlin aircraft

[pants on fire...]

Not sure if it's such a good thing when your pax are seeing things the crew don't - like a punctured airframe!

Passagiere entdeckten vor Air-Berlin-Flug Loch im Flugzeug | Tiroler Tageszeitung Online - Nachrichten von jetzt! (http://www.tt.com/panorama/unfall/13023790-91/passagiere-entdeckten-vor-air-berlin-flug-loch-im-flugzeug.csp)

[Denti]

An ATR-72 of Mistral Air, flying (or rather, not flying) a wet lease for airberlin.

[G-ARZG]

If my schoolboy German still functions, they had a another problem 'carrying 100 passengers from DUS to STR' ! On an ATR72 ?

[DaveReidUK]

If the reports are to be believed, the crew initially rubbished the passengers' concerns until two of them insisted on being offloaded because they were unwilling to fly on an aircraft that was visibly damaged:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18582343_10207385595038092_6053751600479286022_n.jpg?oh=c36b e708be63a36dce68a137bfc4c969&oe=59BC751A

[Airbubba]

Here's the original social media post (with available translations to English) that generated the news item:

https://www.facebook.com/robert.tinnefeld/posts/10207385595238097

[megan]

the crew initially rubbished the passengers' concernsA female passenger boarding what was to become the Hawaii convertible 737 noticed the crack but decided to say nothing on the premise that they (the airline) know what they're doing. Wonder the reaction now if the pax had said something.

C-FONF was a F-28 that crash on take off due to snow and ice contaminated wings. A DC-9 Captain and a Dash 8 Captain were both dead heading, the latter stated that "professional courtesy" precluded an off duty pilot drawing the attention of flight crew to a safety concern.

We're a weird lot.

[lomapaseo]

speed tape it and end of story

[733driver]

Couldn't disagree more. This shouldn't be about the hole and how to fix it, temporarily or permanently. Instead this should serve as an example for the entire industry how not to deal with pax concerns regarding safety.

As has been posted above it should be absolutely unacceptable to disregard any potentially important safety related input from anyone (grounds staff including cleaners, pax etc).

Everyone in the industry needs to learn that lesson. Now, I realize that I am probably (hopefully) preaching to the choir here but we can all do our part by sharing stories like this one with people who work with and around us.

[Consol]

Quite right in general but do remember there are some passengers who think there is a hole in the wing when the flaps and spoilers are deployed.

[pattern_is_full]

Well, when you can see the ground through it, there is a hole - the difference lies in whether it is supposed to be there. ;)

[blind pew]

Megan...
I was sent forward by my captain to inform the crew of clear ice on the wing as I was the only one in uniform..the North African crew returned to the apron.
A few years later when a volcano went bang we had a crew DH from ANC...the captain informed the operating crew several times of the large amount of snow on the wings...was told to shut up so he opened the emergency exit and climbed onto the wing.
Was arrested and took our embassy a few days to get him released...deported from the US for endangering an aircraft. My next trip saw a snow storm errupt as another of their kites rotated...

[DaveReidUK]

Quite right in general but do remember there are some passengers who think there is a hole in the wing when the flaps and spoilers are deployed.

A few false positives would be a small price to pay (see the above examples where keeping quiet turned out to be a very bad idea).

And no airline should be employing cabin crew who can't tell the difference between the flaps being extended and a punctured aerofoil.

[pax britanica]

A difficult subject, a good fe years ago I was on a charter from LGW to Faro on a no longer around airline 737-200. Sat by front of wing and no leading edge slats were deployed during taxy- we sat at the holding point for about ten minutes due to traffic and still no slats. Me my family and our friends aboard, do you say something or not . Most airlines I had flown with deploy slats after push back or during taxi. I decided that if we pulled onto the runway I would do something (not quite sure what) but this was pre locked FD doors. As it happened as it pulled forward out came the slats. Was it their procedure-had they made previous attempts to deploy and decided on one last go before return to stand or did they forget until last moment- who knows but it is not a dilemma I would want again.

What would the crew do If I went up to an FA and said there are no slats extended?

[ericferret]

Reminds me of a mixed pax and freight flight on the north sea. A pilot from another operator flying as a passenger spoke to the crew about an obvious c of g issue. After being told to wind his neck in he offloaded himself. As he reached the heli deck edge he noticed that all the other passengers had also offloaded. Their view was that if the pilot who flew them inter-rig wasn't getting on then neither were they. The aircraft was reloaded and the flight then proceeded.

[ericferret]

Boeing 737 taxiing out in the UK. Old lady in front row tells cabin crew she can see out through a gap round L1 door. Ignored by cabin crew. Aircraft launches and fails to pressurise. Air turnback. Aircraft took off with the airstair bracket not retracted preventing the door closing fully.

[cooperplace]

Quite right in general but do remember there are some passengers who think there is a hole in the wing when the flaps and spoilers are deployed.

are attitudes like this part of the problem? Passenger reports a hole so they must be wrong?

[Viper 7]

I was on a Dash 8 flight once watching the ground crew fueling the plane when another ground support guy asked the guy fuelling something while he was disconnecting the nozzle. They exchanged a few words, the hose was stowed in the bowser and they left...with the fuel cap hanging off.


They had #2 running before I could get the stew to understand the problem.


:p

[Yankee Whisky]

Reminds me of a Trident taking off from Heathrow and forgot to deploy the slats ! I remember because I was reading the accident report in a similar Trident taking off from the same runway sometime after ! My attention was very much focused on the slats and I would have raised hell if I had not seen them down !

[Hotel Tango]

Reminds me of a Trident taking off from Heathrow and forgot to deploy the slats

Not quite like that actually. Read the report again.

[RatherBeFlying]

A few years back in YOW, I noticed a fine sprinkling of precip on the wing and pressed the CC call button to ask if the precip was liquid or frozen.

The captain called me forward and suggested that at 3C it had to be liquid. I stated that in my a/c I'd be putting a finger on it to make sure.

I abstained from discussing the physics of cold soaked wings and fuel tanks.
Some years before I observed frost over a tank on a 20+ day, but that type was approved for takeoff with frost in that limited area.

A rampie appeared shortly after and verified it was liquid.

[Herod]

Years ago I was flying Trislanders. Because a failure of the centre engine wasn't that obvious, there was a light on the panel marked "No. 2 Engine Fail". The system was switched on before takeoff, and subsequently the light began to flash. Bearing in mind that the first pax row is directly behind the pilot, and we frequently had a passenger in the RHS, it was common to get the dig in the back of the neck and.."Ere, pilot".

[DaveReidUK]

Not quite like that actually. Read the report again.

Yes, the Spanair MD-82 at MAD would be more apt parallel.

[3db]

A long long time ago, when I was about 15yrs old, took a flight (without parents) from LHR to Jersey, in a viscount. In the cruise I noticed a crack across the top of the LHS inside engine mount, slowly getting longer. I ask the CC if it was normal - they didn't know, but told the flight deck. Man with stripes arrived, looked at it and with horror in his eyes said "that's normal young man, but we will stop the engine to be on the safe side". Safe 3 engine landing was the result.

[Prober]

#19. trident - slats???:{
Prober

[DaveReidUK]

Most Tridents had slats, though presumably the OP is referring to Papa India which, being a 1C, had droops instead.

Reminds me of a Trident taking off from Heathrow and forgot to deploy the slats !

Either way, PI certainly didn't take off with the crew having forgotten to deploy them.

[blind pew]

Yes North African..it was actually Air Algerie who had taken eco tankage into GVA and onto ZRH. Our ground crew had checked but not checked and there was a layer of clear ice on the wings which my skipper spotted. Ex Luftwaffe strarfighter...incredibly talented the whole bunch.
The crew went all the way to the threshold of 23, lined up and put on loads of power which saw my skipper go white but they were just speeding up the process of getting back to the ramp. It took two full goes to clear the ice.
Our DC9s had tell tales added to aid clear ice detection as it is extremely difficult to see.
The ANC case was also ex Luftwaffe...but everyone could see an inch or so of dry snow on the wing...quite sure that the local FAA tolerated the practice.
WRT to dents..her indoors had five hours getting drunk in Nimes after a frog loader drove into FR cargo hold frame...engineer decided that he couldn't inspect the internals so they flew down another 737.
And we had a big airways "senior first officer" tell us all how he was a clever boy and had discovered a dent at LHR on a 74 with the paint peeling off...the insides weren't much better with threadbare carpets and the entertainment system not working...haven't been back since.

[Piltdown Man]

Over the years I have had many passengers tell me about things they find strange. The first thing I do is thank them for their comment. Then I have a look and then explain what I have found. If I can't see what they told me about, I get them outside to show me. To date, nobody has found anything we didnt know about beforehand but plenty of items on the MEL have been spotted by eagle eyed pax. I hope they never stop looking.

[Basil]

A female passenger boarding what was to become the Hawaii convertible 737 noticed the crack but decided to say nothing on the premise that they (the airline) know what they're doing. Wonder the reaction now if the pax had said something.

C-FONF was a F-28 that crash on take off due to snow and ice contaminated wings. A DC-9 Captain and a Dash 8 Captain were both dead heading, the latter stated that "professional courtesy" precluded an off duty pilot drawing the attention of flight crew to a safety concern.

We're a weird lot.
I'd like to think that I and my colleagues would have said something.

As an FO, I DID point out that we were high and fast on a short wet runway. (Used all of those terms)
Ol' skip carried on and landed anyway, bursting all the maingear tyres. Fortunately we didn't go off the end.

[b1lanc]

I was six years old on my first flight heading to visit the grandparents sitting window over port wing of a DC-6. Only thing kids could do then is look out the window and marvel at the ability to fly. Noticed oil streaming back out of the cowling of the port inner back over the wing during cruise. Tugged on mum's shirt, she flagged down the stew who took a quick look and then went forward. One of the front office came back, leaned over took a look and said in what was classic pilot vernacular 'that's normal for these old buckets but thank you and keep watching it for me' after which I received my first set of wings. I knew what I wanted to do for a living and my doodling in school was airliners from then on - no more trains.

[Basil]

A few years back in YOW, I noticed a fine sprinkling of precip on the wing and pressed the CC call button to ask if the precip was liquid or frozen.

The captain called me forward and suggested that at 3C it had to be liquid. I stated that in my a/c I'd be putting a finger on it to make sure.

I abstained from discussing the physics of cold soaked wings and fuel tanks.
Some years before I observed frost over a tank on a 20+ day, but that type was approved for takeoff with frost in that limited area.

A rampie appeared shortly after and verified it was liquid.
Hear, hear! Once insisted on steps being brought so that I could climb up and check. Ground handling said 'All OK, captain.' I didn't trust them and insisted.
Another time we had been de-iced, noticed residual ice and had the job done again after photographing the evidence.
On yet another occasion, guy threw a bucket of hot water over a cold-soaked wing. Needless to say, it froze on contact. :*

[Private jet]

Boeing 737 taxiing out in the UK. Old lady in front row tells cabin crew she can see out through a gap round L1 door. Ignored by cabin crew. Aircraft launches and fails to pressurise. Air turnback.

Similar thing happened on a BA 707 out of Montreal once. One of the rear doors was very obviously not shut properly after galley loading. Cabin crew sat next to it and just let it all happen. Of course once airborne the screaming airflow noise finally prompted the clowns to tell someone on the flightdeck. After levelling off at 10000 the flight engineer (remember them?) actually opened the door against the airflow and shut it properly. No turnback required.

[PAXboy]

Piltdown Man has it right:
The first thing I do is thank them for their comment. Then I have a look and then explain what I have found. If I can't see what they told me about, I get them outside to show me. To date, nobody has found anything we didnt know about beforehand but plenty of items on the MEL have been spotted by eagle eyed pax. I hope they never stop looking.We now know FOR SURE, that a picture of the hole/defect/speedtape will be on social media before the chocs are pulled. CEOs should be making it very clear that, whilst it may be irritating to get five people pointing out the speedtape - it's cheaper than the social media meltdown afterwards, over something that was not an issue.

[ericferret]

If the hole is in a pressurised area I'm wondering how speed tape would stay on

[Ancient-Mariner]

October 1999 flying Manchester to Gatwick (thence Phoenix, Oakland to join a ship in Oakland) noticed that most of the fasteners, Dzus(?) that secured a wing panel over the right hand engine of the BA737 were missing. When we landed I checked the left hand side and 100% present. Tried asking the cabin crew to pass on to the fight deck, but not interested.


Admittedly nothing was flapping or fell off during the 30 odd minutes MAN to LGW, but I'm sure the fasteners should have been there...

[pants on fire...]

Multiple layers of speed tape from the inside with a good overlap from the hole, put some heavy bags on top of it and probably good 'til the next D Check. ;)

[DaveReidUK]

If the hole is in a pressurised area I'm wondering how speed tape would stay on

In this case, it clearly wasn't.

[Vivabeaver]

In the late 1980s I was positioning JER-GCI on a clockwork Tristar with another member of crew,we had the last row just below the engine on the fin.The pilot taxied to the hold on two engines,we naturally expected the third engine to start before TO but no we lined up and powered up and started to roll,we both shouted STOP!! The pilot vacated the runway taxied back to the hold and started the third engine and took off.

[Herod]

Vivabeaver. Probably meant to stop that light flashing, as in my post 22, but then forgot about the engine.

[pa12 pilot]

A female passenger boarding what was to become the Hawaii convertible 737 noticed the crack but decided to say nothing
Forgive my skepticism, but that doesn't seem likely. Where was she when she noticed the crack?

[TWT]

Not likely, but a passenger did observe a crack while boarding. See second paragraph on page 11 :

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR8903.pdf

[Super VC-10]

Forgive my skepticism, but that doesn't seem likely. Where was she when she noticed the crack?

Top of the airstairs, about to enter the aircraft. This is well documented in various sources.

[ericferret]

Dave Reid

"In this case, it clearly wasn't." (a pressurised structure)

How can you tell that?

[Airbubba]

A female passenger boarding what was to become the Hawaii convertible 737 noticed the crack but decided to say nothing on the premise that they (the airline) know what they're doing.

Forgive my skepticism, but that doesn't seem likely. Where was she when she noticed the crack?

Not likely, but a passenger did observe a crack while boarding. See second paragraph on page 11 :

Just to clarify, the page is numbered 5 in the original NTSB report, 11 in the .pdf file after title page, contents, executive summary etc.

The paragraph:

After the accident, a passenger stated that as she was boarding the airplane through the jet bridge at Hilo, she observed a longitudinal fuselage crack. The crack was in the upper row of rivets along the S-10L lap joint, about halfway between the cabin door and the edge of the jet bridge hood. She made no mention of the observation to the airline ground personnel or flightcrew.

The passenger was identified in contemporary news reports as Gayle Yamamoto.

[TURIN]

If the hole is in a pressurised area I'm wondering how speed tape would stay on

No one would try and patch a hole in the pressurised area with speed tape. It would be AOG. A nice jolly for a couple of sheet metal workers.
You may get a concession to fly back to base unpressurised but that would depend on a load of other factors first.

[Less Hair]

Ramp rash happens.
In this mobile phone age passengers will take pictures and shoot movies whenever they see stuff like that. So any crew and airline must deal with it apart from denying a problem. There is no way around that. Communicate, let the captain say he has had a mechanic check it and got the green light to go and similar. Having the FA declaring "just trust us" to the pax is plain stupid.

[ericferret]

Turin

That's is exactly how I've always seen it done, speed tape was reserved for other "issues".

[Rwy in Sight]

I am not sure if it is relevant but I was told that Airbus allows to temporary repair a hole and permits the aircraft to fly for a month.

[DaveReidUK]

Are you referring to a specific incident, or suggesting that this is a blanket policy?

It's hard to imagine a regulator being happy about the latter.

[601]

If the hole is in a pressurised area I'm wondering how speed tape would stay on

Ya put it on the pressurised side so the pressure keeps it on.

[9 lives]

I was told that Airbus allows to temporary repair a hole and permits the aircraft to fly for a month

It would be best to not listen to that person in matters of aircraft maintenance. Such a "allow" would be incredibly specific, certainly not applicable to the nature of the hole in a pressurized skin, and have very strict limitations associated, much more detailed and burdensome than "a month".

In terms of the hole pictured in the pressurized skin of an airliner, it would require a specific repair prior to the next pressurized or revenue flight. It is presumable that Airbus might publish a repair scheme as "approved data", which certainly would be required for this. In the absence of manufacturer's approved data being available, the operator would have to have a repair scheme approved.

Such a repair has implications of immediate strength and suitability, and thereafter, long term fatigue considerations.

[Less Hair]

BTW we are talking about some ATR.

[Rwy in Sight]

Step Turn and DaveReidUK, my input was from an A320 skipper back in 2004 and referring to a catering track making a hole on this aircraft. The repair made by the company and oked by Airbus was good for a month his word not mine.

However as Less Hair says it is probably irrelevant for the aircraft in question.

[megan]

Search for "speed tape aircraft" on youtube and you'll see typical use of speed tape. Not pressurised areas naturally.

http://www.askthepilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/pilot-duct-tape-460x307.jpg

Not a good look I admit.

[AviatorDave]

While I am certainly not a fan of panicking passengers who know nothing but think they can go big mouth and tell the 'bus drivers' in the front seats how to do their work, concerns raised by pax should be taken seriously and be investigated. Not all pax are stupid SLF, and often you'll even find pilots among them.

[KiloB]

I've seen a fork truck make a six inch dent (with a two inch hole) in the (pressurised) hold skin of a 747. Pax were just starting to load. It was repaired with about a kilo of epoxy applied on the inside and, after a short delay, set off on a 5000 mile leg to LHR. Returned with the 'patch' still in place and departed to the Carriers main Base for proper repair. Don't think it would happen today, but no Frames were involved.

[Denti]

Not all pax are stupid SLF, and often you'll even find pilots among them.

And being a pilot doesn't mean they know everything. Had a proceeding pilot from another airline start a riot at line up over cold soaked fuel frost on the upper surface of the wing, something that is approved and completely normal on the 737-800. In the end it produced quite some delay and substantial costs to the company, for nothing really.

That said, yes, taking passenger advisements seriously is something every pilot should do. The attitude expressed by Piltdown Man in post 28 is the one i think is the right one.

[DownWest]

Small a/c, but, I was in the second row. We had a quick refuel after discovering that half the fuel had been 'borrowed' while parked at Marrakech. As the pilot was cranking up, I pointed out that the fuel caps were on the wings next to the open covers. It caught his attention......

[mattman]

As pilots (ppl thu to ATPL) have conscious duty for ones own life and those onboard the same aircraft.
Surely the flight deck should be pretty happy to have all those extra eyeballs giving a critical once over before departure.
How many times pitot covers have been left on. Static ports covered over, doors, holes, cracks.
Once saved a captain the embarresment when we pointed out his brake disc was completely cracked on a 7x.
To surmise all pax are ignorant is proof of ones own ignorance!

[UK019]

In the early ‘80s I was flying an F27 from a regional airport. Did the walk-round and all was normal. About 20 later minutes after boarding, a passenger reported that a main-wheel tyre had deflated – in fact it was completely flat. He was dead right. I made a PA and invited the passenger to the flight-deck to thank him. The pair of wheels were changed and we departed an hour late. Wrote it up in the tech log, submitted the ‘80s equivalent of an ASR. No complaint letters, no come-back, all was sweetness and light.

Fast forward to 2017 and I would be subjected to trial by YouTube and Facebook, with a recording of my PA and video of the wheel available to the whole planet before we departed, accompanied later by multiple claims for compensation.