What costs does/should your employer cover?

[Flyboy1987]

I recently sat down with a union rep as had a chat about the current air pilots award.

It was the unions understanding, that as per the award, the company/employer must cover all costs associated with operation of the aircraft, this SHOULD include the pilots medical, asic, charts, ersa etc.

I am yet to meet any pilot working in the lower/medium GA sector that has ever had any of this covered?

Has anyone ever had an employer that covers this? Or an above award pay to compensate?

[Flyboy1987]

Raptor, sounds like we've had the same employers!!

[outnabout]

Raptor090: Pilots are known for their mobility between employers.


It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.


Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.


Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?

[chimbu warrior]

Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.



Lots of carpenters out there pulling down $100K a year...............not so for GA pilots.

[Metro man]

A former employer of mine didn't pay award, superannuation, workers compensation, night stop allowances and on time. He also informed me that he didn't pay for instrument rating renewals either but I didn't stick around long enough to need one.

[Flyboy1987]

Raptor090: Pilots are known for their mobility between employers.


It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.


Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.


Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?

I would consider my headset "tool of my trade" not so much my medical, asic, working with children card etc.

Not to mention the employer can claim all this and more at tax time.

I find it odd that most lames, ops managers, aircraft cleaners, office admin roles all get an asic supplied, but not the pilot who spends the majority of the time airside?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Chimbu,
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?

One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.

I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.

Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".

Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.

Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.

I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.

...well... I'm not, anyway.

[Flyboy1987]

Chimbu,
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?

One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.

I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.

Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".

Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.

Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.

I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.

...well... I'm not, anyway.

Totally understand where you're coming from, and your operation sounds a lot better than anything I have experienced to date.

However, for a lower end GA pilot, living remote, paying for something like an asic or medical is a big deal, to the point where we have to save year round for it.

Maybe all costs which come out of the pilots pocket should be reimbursed after 12 months service?
Would that be fair and keep most happy?

[Metro man]

Generally a GA pilot in a remote area will be one of the lowest paid people in town, teachers, nurses, police, council workers are all on a better wicket. Then add in remote area prices.

[Flyboy1987]

Generally a GA pilot in a remote area will be one of the lowest paid people in town, teachers, nurses, police, council workers are all on a better wicket. Then add in remote area prices.

Absolutely Metro, and god forbid you look for something better after the CP has just invested 5 hours icus (which was a paid charter) on his 1976 baron 58!

[Horatio Leafblower]

god forbid you look for something better after the CP has just invested 5 hours icus (which was a paid charter)

So you promise to stick around - your new employer invests time and/or money into your qualifications - and you p!ss off to use them somewhere else?

A bit one-sided, don't you think? That time could have been spent with someone who actually had some ethics and a desire to stand by their commitments.

[Horatio Leafblower]

If I was earning what a Carpenter earns, perhaps I would not be complaining so much.

Earning less than 50k a year, in a capital city, with kids, then be expected to pay for up all those work related expenses is farcical!!!

Wow.
...and we wonder how our competitors do it so cheap :mad:

If you as an employee are participating in this race to the bottom you have nobody to blame but yourselves. There are good employers out here trying to do everything right andsuffering because dirtbag employers are shafting you.

....with your consent, I might add. Whinging on PPRuNe just because it doesn't seem like such a good deal any more doesn't suddenly make you "principled".

If you are working at Bankstown as a "contractor" you are also participating in the race to the bottom. You are allowing your employer to compete unfairly and illegally against those companies who are trying to do the right thing.

Base salary for a Full Time SE Instructor is $40,746. If you do NVFR and you are Gr2 you should get $45,447. If you fly a U206 you step up a rate and you get $47,179.

ADD allowances to the above. PLUS super. PLUS leave.

Casual rates: A Grade 2 should get a minimum of $71.01 per flight hour, plus allowaces, plus super.

I have heard tales of instructors at BK working as "contractors" for $45 per hour.

If you are a Grade 2 instructor and you do some IFR Baron Charter you should be on a salary of $56,446 or $88.19/hour casual PLUS super PLUS allowances.

Chieftain pilots should be on a minimum of $58,335 or $91.14/hour casual PLUS super PLUS allowances.

If you are accepting less than this, you are part of the problem and you are rewarding scumbag employers while making it hard for the good guys to survive.

Over to you.

[Flyboy1987]

So you promise to stick around - your new employer invests time and/or money into your qualifications - and you p!ss off to use them somewhere else?

A bit one-sided, don't you think? That time could have been spent with someone who actually had some ethics and a desire to stand by their commitments.

Absolutely not.
There was no promise made.
I had already flown well over 1500 hours for this operator in less than 2 years for my mediocre pay, which included working +88 hours a fortnight constantly, spoken to like crap, gone absolutely broke in a remote part of Australia where I couldn't afford to go home for a family funeral, so when my opportunity came up to progress I took it and never looked back.
I think after putting the company before myself for 20 months I had that right?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Flyboy1987
I think after putting the company before myself for 20 months I had that right?

On the facts presented, that's a whole different story.

Raptor090
If we put the base salary up to $60k, what would that look like to the consumer?
The direct cost to the employer (assuming full time, not casual) is about 132% of the nominal salary.
If the employer is paying $79,200 for his/her pilots that's about $105 per flight hour compared to $93.60 per flight hour (assuming ME IFR CHTR at $53,179 and 750 flight hours/year).

If our hypothetical pilot is only flying 500 billable hours per year that becomes a cost of $158.40/hour compared to $140.39.

That's not a big jump in a competitive environment. It's a long time since pilot entry-level wages moved forward by anything more than CPI.

There are a number of pilots out there who deserve more money and in my observation they tend to move up the tree pretty quickly.
I doubt you are one of these, but the pilots who sit around worrying about what they should be paid (after selling their arse to get the job) rarely fall into that group!

[Band a Lot]

Leafblower some very good points. Never mentioned by a union rep!

That bush job for probably under award but 400 min hours a year - Well that's only taken by persons wishing to work for self benefit. They should actually be fined and jailed as they know/knew it was below award at the very start. All pilots should name and shame them, they are scum. Especially the ones that put in Fairwork claims they day the move on to the new job.

This is how I see it should be.

* You come to me for a job to fly my aircraft.
- Do you have the ratings Y/N
Y= next stage
N= Who will pay for this required rating? Often the aircraft owner possible bond.

* Can you fly the thing?
- Lets take a flight.

No at this point, where are you going to get all the stuff to carry out this check flight?
The charts, ASIC, medicals, headsets and all the other stuff you listed.

So I see it you require it before employment, so you maintain it during employment.


That is the minimum, you or your employer can claim the tax deduction and be a possible employment benefit.

A carpenter with no tools makes little money.

[Ixixly]

Horatio, I know of a few employers who get around this in a rather simple way. They don't reimburse for any of the sorts of costs you mentioned, instead they work out how much it would normally cost and add that to a persons annual wage. The idea is that IF they do leave then the employer hasn't forked out all those costs and the employee will still get covered basically for the percentage of time they've utilised them there if the person leaves after only a month or so but if the employee stays their costs are covered completely.

This of course therefore passes the guvmints "Better Off" test in terms of not adhering strictly to the Award and keeps everyone happier about doing such things!

There was discussion in another thread about Bonds as well, apparently the big problem is that they aren't legally enforceable because of the "Better off" test, perhaps some owners like yourself should be petitioning hard to get something put into the Award that allows Pilots to be suitably bonded for "Advanced Training" such as Endorsements or Training on new Aircraft Types like your Conquest?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Ixixly
I like that idea. I liked it the first time you posted it!

Only problem then is that it is built into their super, their holidays, the overall wages bill and therefore the Worker's comp and payroll tax.....

What about a mobile phone? Given that EVERYBODY has a mobile phone these days and uses it for everything except work, what of the old award provision (still in the award) that the employer will pay for the line rental for a phone in the pilot's home?
Until recently the Coal Miner's award provided for a tonne of coal per year for every employee too :ooh:

[holdingagain]

So what does a King Air / Conquest 2 endorsement cost these days and how long is reasonable before you can move on if you didn't pay for the endorsement

[Tankengine]

Even Qantas don't pay for medical and licence fees.:zzz:
I was pretty lucky back in GA to get instructor renewals then IFR renewals paid for, plus a few twin endorsements, paid for own headset.
Often above award rates, or extras like accomodation. It helps to be CP or CFI!:E
Of course there was no ASIC then and charts were free. (Except WACs):O

[Horatio Leafblower]

So what does a King Air / Conquest 2 endorsement cost these days and how long is reasonable before you can move on if you didn't pay for the endorsement

Depends on your experience. If you have 40hours multi and 800 hours total, I am going to spend a lot of time and money and effort getting you up to speed.

If you have flown KingAirs and Metros and B1900s, it will still be a commitment but it won't be so bad. All my comments below assume we are discussing a decent operator with a CAR217 approval or similar training philosophy.

3 hours or so in the aeroplane will cost about $7500 but it costs more than that.
The Ground school, training materials, instructor time and the coaching would cost your employer about $1500 more but it costs more than that.

The hours of ICUS, briefing, de-briefing, paperwork, mentoring, and investment in your professional development - how do I value that?

You may think that "The ICUS is all done on revenue charter flights so it costs you nothing"... and you would be wrong. We could have had an extra passenger on that flight, or had 200lb of extra fuel for a diversion or alternate, skipped a refuelling stop, avoided refuelling at that really expensive spot, saved a night's accommodation and meals (that we couldn't pass on to the client). On those occasions the acft was full and we couldn't fit you on for the ICUS we still pay you. All these charters and the training represent an intangible cost - the opportunity to do it with someone else who would have stayed longer. Of course, that cost is never aparrent until a trainee gets their ICUS and walks away and we have to start all over again.

We make this investment of time in you not merely as a transaction (this many hours costs this many dollars) but as an investment in our business, as part of a 12-to-18 month plan. Most employers are happy to make this investment in you, too, and do so in good faith.

If we make this investment in you and you leave after 4 months, what then?

If you paid for 12 months registration on your car and the RMS turned around after 4 months and cancelled it, wouldn't you want a refund?

[Band a Lot]

So what does a King Air / Conquest 2 endorsement cost these days and how long is reasonable before you can move on if you didn't pay for the endorsement



The exact amount of time you agreed on or the full bond period.

* Remember the bond is only a $ value of the actual training - the actual cost is generally much higher.

So even leaving the day after a bond period is a loss to the company (the investment over 3 years, yielded the same as I paid 3 years ago!)

[Metro man]

I worked for a scumbag GA operator and on joining, the company wanted a two year commitment which I agreed to I also agreed to reduced salary for the first three months as money was tight. At the end of the probationary period I expected to go onto normal pay but when I asked I was told that reduced pay would be for another three months. I explained that this would have to be in writing and pay would then need to be above award to make up for it.

When this was not forthcoming they received my reduced service in return. After a month of this a pay rise was given, still below award but enough to make me stay while I was applying elsewhere.

After eleven months I finally left with a huge smile on my face. I then discover that no superannuation was paid into my fund and workers comp. wasn't being paid either.

There was no money to chase as debts were piled up left right and centre. About a year later operations ceased. Centrelink were investigating the owners for fraud as well.

Unfortunately twenty years ago this wasn't that unusual and even bigger GA operators expected a freebie from new joiners.

[Ixixly]

You're exactly right Horatio, as was discussed in the other Thread it's undoubtedly one of the biggest reasons why Employers are hesitant to give new guys a go when they need to be trained because of that uncertainty. It's exactly why I think there should be a big push to have an amendment made to the Pilots Award to allow for a Bond that is legally binding and reasonable. Of course the Pilots Award can't tell you exactly what to do but it could include some provisions in there to help both parties decide what is fair and reasonable to include in the costs. There will also be intangible costs that are difficult to allow for, perhaps such a clause would allow for a 10% "Misc" cost that can be added on to allow for this? For example after you add up the costs you know about being required you then tack on the 10% allowance.

TankEngine, that would be because Qantas Pilots operate on an EBA and obviously that wasn't apart of the EBA that is signed and used, little bit different, not to mention if they were on Award chances are they'd be paid "Above Award" which means that with the "Better Off" test that would be applied they'd still come out as earning above the minimum.

IFR Renewals can be tricky I think, it depends if you're required to actually have it or not. I know of at least one large school where they don't pay for people to have their IPCs done (Unless they're designated as an IFR Instructor), but if they get it done then they can try to utilise it with the organisation, basically they say "We don't REQUIRE you to have one....BUT if you do..." definitely sits in a grey area there, I'd be interested to see what they'd say when no one does it off their own back and suddenly they require someone to do some IF Flying, say on a charter or something.

Holding Again, I think what Horatio said really boils down to "How long is a piece of string?". I'd like to see a time when it really comes down to what you and employer would decide on a contract, I'd think something like a King Air Endorsement would take about 2-3years for the Employer to get value for their training so likely a bonding period would be for that long, if you leave before then, then you pay it back Pro rata.

Of course with a Bond there would be people whom would try to take advantage of Pilots by way over charging for it, but then they would be required to have a detailed break down of costs to show to the relevant Authorities if pulled up and asked to "Please explain!".

[Band a Lot]

I worked for a scumbag GA operator and on joining, the company wanted a two year commitment which I agreed to I also agreed to reduced salary for the first three months as money was tight. At the end of the probationary period I expected to go onto normal pay but when I asked I was told that reduced pay would be for another three months. I explained that this would have to be in writing and pay would then need to be above award to make up for it.

When this was not forthcoming they received my reduced service in return. After a month of this a pay rise was given, still below award but enough to make me stay while I was applying elsewhere.

After eleven months I finally left with a huge smile on my face. I then discover that no superannuation was paid into my fund and workers comp. wasn't being paid either.

There was no money to chase as debts were piled up left right and centre. About a year later operations ceased. Centrelink were investigating the owners for fraud as well.

Unfortunately twenty years ago this wasn't that unusual and even bigger GA operators expected a freebie from new joiners.

You are honestly saying you worked knowingly below the award? and then renewed that but "wanted it in writing"

Sorry you are a problem, will you break minimums just to have a job too? or go 50kg over MTW every flight?

[Horatio Leafblower]

You are honestly saying you worked knowingly below the award? and then renewed that but "wanted it in writing"

Sorry you are a problem, will you break minimums just to have a job too? or go 50kg over MTW every flight?

Taking the job in reduced circumstances shows that you were willing to go forward in good faith. I think that's admirable. I also think the employer was very lucky and should have repaid your good faith by upholding his end of the bargain.

The minimum is the minimum is the minimum. The good guys pay minimum or more. Honour yourself and honour the good guys by insisting on proper pay and conditions.

[Band a Lot]

Under zero circumstances (except being owner of company) is it with in the LAW to work for below minimum conditions set.

There is no acceptable reason/s or exception I am aware that pass any court in this country - it is simply an illegal agreement to do so. Certainly not a commendable thing in my opinion.

[Horatio Leafblower]

And as I said....

The minimum is the minimum is the minimum. The good guys pay minimum or more. Honour yourself and honour the good guys by insisting on proper pay and conditions.

[holdingagain]

Since my last post I've been told a KA endorsement in a Aus sim is $20000 plus.
Most GA pilots chase the airlines so they are unlikely to stick around much past say 15/18 months.
Makes it difficult for both parties to resolve the training costs even with a company KA/C441 and 217 in place - Maybe there isn't a workable answer to this unless you pay sufficiently above the award and exercise the bond option

[Horatio Leafblower]

Maybe there isn't a workable answer to this unless you pay sufficiently above the award and exercise the bond option

Remember that for every operator paying the award there is an operator who isn't, and a young tiger keen to get that first Turbine job for not enough pay. If we pay "sufficiently above the award" it will probably be enough to ensure we don't win the work or need the pilots.
As for bonding? Good luck chasing that one inFair Work or in Court!

[Metro man]

One company, not too far away from the one I worked for, expected pilots to mow the grass at the owners house.

Towards the end of my time with Scumbag Air Services, a pilot joined who was working for nothing.

Regarding covering the cost of renewals, if the qualification is required for the job and used by the operator then he should pay. It would be unreasonable for a pilot doing VFR sightseeing flights for a company operating S/E aircraft only, to expect them to pay for an instrument rating renewal on a twin.

[holdingagain]

HL, I accept the commercial reallities.
My bond point was if the pay was high enough it would pass the fair test if it all went pear shape. The pilot would not be receiving less than the award after the bond was exercised ( others have mentioned this as a limiting factor )

[Ixixly]

Metro Man, this does raise an interesting point that I've discussed with friends before. Let's say there as an operator, whom at the time of you applying had no jobs available as they simply weren't hiring. If a Pilot was to offer to work a couple of days a week helping out behind the counter, doing the lawns, clean the hangar etc... in return perhaps for some ICUS, exposure to their operations and therefore being first in line for a Full-Time job when it comes up, how would you view that?

Personally I think this wouldn't be such a bad idea. You haven't taken a job off anyone and the choice is entirely yours without screwing anyone else?

A lot of people say that "Working for free is the worst thing you can do" which I find to be a very sweeping statement that doesn't take into account all variables.

My first hours were with a Skydiving Operator, I didn't get paid for it, but I got some flying hours, met some awesome people and didn't regret anything about it and certainly don't feel bad at all, it was also a very small operation compared to most that operated weekends only, reinvested its money back into itself and no one was really making any money.

[jas24zzk]

Going back in the topic a little bit...

ASIC's, medicals, and required charts could be considered as fixed cost tools of trade. This is the same way my own trade background required i had certain 'tools' of my own to use.

These required constant replacement due wear and tear, so we were paid a Tool allowance each week in our pay (not subject to super or leave loading etc)

Instead of flat out paying for a pilots ASIC etc, you can say, you arrive with current credentials, and we will pay you a 'Compliance Allowance', of X dollars per week, to be used to renew those credentials. That way if they nick off after 4 months, you have only paid 4 months 'value' on those items.
It also works well tax wise as both sides can claim a deduction. (it's also not subject to payroll tax)

I come from an industry that struggles to train their workers in the latest technology outside of their apprenticeship, but i have been bonded to an employer once before for my LPG fitters ticket. They paid for the course and initial licence issue, I agreed to stay for 12 months. It was done correctly and pro-rata'd. After the first 12 months, my tool allowance was increased and i was expected to pay for my own licence renewals.

The new company, that i sub-contract too, have agreed to pay for my ASIC renewal.....no bonding, but my investment to have the contract ensures i am not going anywhere in a hurry.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Goodness gracious.

This is a very un-PPRuNe thread. Civil. Helpful. Thoughtful. Very strange.

Metro Man:
We had a (relatively) quiet period during which one of my ex-tradie pilots assembled a 6x6 steel shed at my place, with the help of a couple of others.

All of them were paid full salary throughout.

When I was in Kunnunurra it was common to pick Mangos on Craig and Gail's farm.

If you're being paid and you're being useful and working within the scope of your abilities, I don't see the problem.

[runway16]

There was an article in the May issue of that magazine, Australian Aviation, about the Pilots Award and employer paid expenses.
Seems to have been on the same track as the thread of this topic.
For pilots on a low wage the expenses for kit are considerable and only sometimes covered by the employer.

[Flyboy1987]

Instead of flat out paying for a pilots ASIC etc, you can say, you arrive with current credentials, and we will pay you a 'Compliance Allowance', of X dollars per week, to be used to renew those credentials. That way if they nick off after 4 months, you have only paid 4 months 'value' on those items.
It also works well tax wise as both sides can claim a deduction. (it's also not subject to payroll tax

I think this is a fair solution?
For most of the guys out remote, our total cost of a medical, asic, charts, ersa etc would come to around $1000 assuming the medical
Is straight forward, turns out to be $20 a week, hardly unreasonable?

None of us bashing around in a bug smasher are expecting a large income, but it would be nice to work hard, which we do, and at the end of the week be able to put a little bit away.
A couple hundred bucks for an asic may not sound like much, but it hits hard when there may be a few bills at or around the same time.

[Ixixly]

Flyboy, anytime that a Full Time Employed Professional who uses their money responsibly finds themselves in a situation where $200-$300 expenses a couple times a year is hitting them hard, really says something about their pay level!

[C172R]

Horatio - you make some very good points and as an employee opened my eyes as to what it must be like for my employer.

Band a lot - I totally understand your apparent hatred of pilots who work for less then the award. However, you have to understand that most of these guys don't really have a choice, behind them there are a 100 other desperate pilots keen to work for even less, and employers love to remind them of that.

What I want to know is why arnt these employers getting audited by the appropriate authorities? Does that happen?
Maybe Horatio can answer that question.

If only we as pilots could stand together, we wouldn't have this problem, I have seen situations where this has happened and the employer was left with no choice but to pay up.

The problem with GA is it's unsustainable for the majority of pilots, you just can't live the kind of life that lives up to most pilots ambitions. I would say the ratio of average/bad to good operators who treat their pilots with respect and pride are heavily biased toward the former.

[Flyboy1987]

Flyboy, anytime that a Full Time Employed Professional who uses their money responsibly finds themselves in a situation where $200-$300 expenses a couple times a year is hitting them hard, really says something about their pay level!

Yep, and I get paid the award!
I don't want this thread to be "what we deserve to get paid", I think we can all agree the award pay scale isn't great, but it is what it is.

I understand operators not wanting to pay upfront costs on the chance of a pilot soon leaving, but this is what our industry is. Most of us, myself included, loves flying, and I really do enjoy GA, to the point where I wouldn't chase an airline job if I could make a similar income in ga.

I was a tradesperson in my previous career, my company never kept apprentices on after training, never. The first 12 months of an apprenticeship I was basically carrying around the tradesmen's tool bag, adding absolutely no value to the business for the first 2 years, in that 2 years maybe made 50k.
So I guess that was 50K down the drain for my boss, which he sees no return as no apprentices were retained? Different industry, but investing money into kids and possibly seeing no return is the norm?

[Kelly Slater]

Opening statement: "It was the unions understanding, that as per the award, the company/employer must cover all costs associated with operation of the aircraft, this SHOULD include the pilots medical, asic, charts, ersa etc."
The award has never covered medicals and the union should know this as the union is responsible for never putting it into the award in the first place back when unions had sway. Also, back when unions had power the union did nothing to stop those that took advantage of new pilots looking for a way in at any cost. In other industries it used to be nearly impossible to work for less than the award even if you were willing.
There has been a fair bit of comparison to the carpenter earning his 100k but no mention of the four year apprenticeship that he did in order to get that pay rate. As an apprentice, he was paid a percentage of a tradesman's wage, increasing each year as his skill level and so ability to make money for the boss also increased. During those four years, he was indentured. He could neither quit or be sacked without great difficulty. He was considered staff so could not strike or take part in other industrial action. He did have his tools and other needs met by the employer.
Now this was all a long time ago and I'm sure that an apprentice is paid a lot more percentage wise than he was paid in the past. I'm also sure that there are a lot less apprenticeships available now than in the past, maybe not actual numbers but openings relative to the number of tradesmen employed. Join the dots.
If you wish to make comparisons between pilots and other trades or professions, first you have to find another comparable position but there simply is no other profession that makes for a good comparison. Tradesmen do apprenticeships, professionals go to university, pilots do neither at present.
Nurses turned their career into a recognised profession by introducing the need for a degree to take part. Nursing used to be on the job training, now it requires university. There used to be plenty of nurses and their pay was not great. Now they are in short supply and despite what they say, they are on a reasonable wicket. Perhaps the status of professional pilot needs to raised in the same way. At present it is going backwards to the point where pilots pay to be interviewed and airlines have high jacked the term cadetship and turned it into another revenue stream instead. A cadetship should describe a situation where a company provides training and opportunity to an individual with the expected return coming by way of return of service in the years that follow that training. The airline industry's idea of a cadetship is not even close.
If you choose to take part in this industry, do it with your eyes open.

[Dexta]

With all this talk of awards for employees, all the legal protection for employees, unions, government assistance etc. etc. yet there are a lot of cases of the business owner/employer who works 70 hour weeks, do not get annual leave pay or sick pay or superannuation payments and risk the loss of the houses and other assets if things go wrong and earn less than minimum wage, can't get a personal loan because they are self employed etc. etc.

I know in Australia we are Labour orientated but how come in todays society is it OK for a small business owner to struggle so much and often treated so negatively? If we all gave up our businesses to work for a large multi-national employer what the hell would happen?

An award for small business owners maybe? If they receive less than the award wage then the difference is made up from reduced taxes, rates and levies? Would be good but can't imagine it happening.

All through history there have been employers who exploit workers and workers (usually through unions) who end up crippling businesses, the majority try do do the right thing but legislation has come about with the intent to stop the bad operators but with the consequence that a lot less good businesses will employ someone these days.

[Flyboy1987]

With all this talk of awards for employees, all the legal protection for employees, unions, government assistance etc. etc. yet there are a lot of cases of the business owner/employer who works 70 hour weeks, do not get annual leave pay or sick pay or superannuation payments and risk the loss of the houses and other assets if things go wrong and earn less than minimum wage, can't get a personal loan because they are self employed etc. etc.

Personally, I've never bumped into an aircraft business owner who works 70 hours a week, never has a holiday and brings home less than minimal wage.
I imagine that could happen as a company is going under, but surely wouldn't run in this manner year in year out.

[Band a Lot]

70 hrs would be a common thing for many, they will have a week off (9 days over a double weekend) but still log in and make up for before and after that short break.

The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.

My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes.

[Flyboy1987]

70 hrs would be a common thing for many, they will have a week off (9 days over a double weekend) but still log in and make up for before and after that short break.

The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.

My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes..

Are we talking about owners or managers here?

[Band a Lot]

Find me the owners minimum wage figure!

I used manager as that is part of the job description of a "owner"


So stop with the smart stuff - you never will know what happens before 9 and after 5 but expect it magically be a void.

You will have meet may Flyboy, many!

[Flyboy1987]

Find me the owners minimum wage figure!

I used manager as that is part of the job description of a "owner"


So stop with the smart stuff - you never will know what happens before 9 and after 5 but expect it magically be a void.

You will have meet may Flyboy, many!

Was never trying to be smart, just making sure we were on the same page.

Regardless, I have no interest into what ends up in my employers pocket, not my business.

What I am interested in is what legally should be paid to employees, as it sounds like every employer has a different interpretation of the award.

I can't remember the amount of times i've asked a pilot about their company to be told "yeah, they're a great company, they pay the award"
Wow, that company sounds great, they pay the absolute minimum they are legally required to pay!

Or just as many times "yeah, good to work for, I get paid the award but no overnight allowances or anything like that".

Maybe the written award needs to be more specific? Maybe all companies should try for an EBA, so employees and employers can reach an agreement which suits their operation?

[Band a Lot]

Seems if you read on here the EBA's still have wingers that complain Seems all the ones in Australia, All the ones in the Sand Pit and all the ones in every other place in the World - the odd person will say it is fine.

The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.

P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?

[Flyboy1987]

Seems if you read on here the EBA's still have wingers that complain Seems all the ones in Australia, All the ones in the Sand Pit and all the ones in every other place in the World - the odd person will say it is fine.

The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.

P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?

Very true, there will always be whingers and I'm honestly not one of them, always been paid the minimum and kept my head down and worked hard.

I've worked under an EBA, also represented an employee group when an EBA was coming to an end and negotiations were in place for the new agreement.
My experience was that conditions/pay were traded so most were happy.

For instance an operator could add a claus regarding a bond, the employee group could then maybe come back with an above ward salary or possible overtime rate, perhaps then the pilot not be looking to leave first chance he or she gets?

I've never STARTED eba negotiations, I imagine it would possibly be a long expensive process?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I have no interest into what ends up in my employers pocket, not my business.

What I am interested in is what legally should be paid to employees

Wow. Is this really your attitude towards small business in this country?

[Flyboy1987]

Wow. Is this really your attitude towards small business in this country?

Completely wrong context. I was implying the cream that my boss takes off the top is not my business, getting paid the legal amount is my business. Although I think you already knew that...

[Stationair8]

Unfortunately most new pilots have never worked in a small business, and think that the boss has a money tree out the back. When he needs to make payroll, pay for the 100 hourly, new prop, turbine overhaul etc, he just walks out and grabs a fistfull of $100.00 bills.


Most pilots don't understand that the bank overdraft is depended on the big mining company paying for that $10K charter this month not next month, and the government department that is a regular client, is also a slow payer especially when long weekend and public holidays are thrown in to the mix.


Now getting back to training costs, in most small companies the check and training guy also has to fly the line, take him off line for an endorsement, means the company may have to hire in a casual pilot to fill spot on the roster for a period of time, likewise if somebody leaves at short notice, that means other pilots may not be able to take leave etc. It takes time to do the endorsement, and if you only have one aeroplane, the endorsement has to be done outside contract flying or RPT schedules.
The old 50 hours of ICUS can be done in two weeks or three months, lots of variables in that depending on the pilot under training, flying schedule, check captain availability etc. Not to mention ground schools, CRM courses etc.


I reckon a basic Caravan endorsement and prescribed ICUS for VFR ops for a 1500 hour pilot would be a $15K min exercise, without getting into Garmin 1000 trickery and ASEPTA stuff.


Step up to a Conqest II, Kingair, B1900 or Metro as your first turbine an the boss will be watching dollar signs spinning faster than the N1 gauge!

[Band a Lot]

They will also chip in personally to cover the N1 going over red line, if that needs to be done.

Without even a sorry "I stuffed up" ever given. Or considered!

[Metro man]

The last company I worked for paid strictly by the award but refused to pay the hard lying allowance for night stops at mine sites. Margins were thin and it could have made a difference to the profitability of the contract.

A couple of years after I left they went into administration and ended up being taken over by the main client, a logistics company who were used to screwing subcontracting truckers into the ground, who they had no trouble replacing when they went broke. It was a bit harder finding another turbine operator to step in a short notice so they ended up having to buy the company to keep the freight moving.

As has been stated before, margins are tight and it's easy to end up on the wrong side of the drag curve where profits are concerned. We had a youngster destroy both engines on landing one night with a bog down. Hundreds of thousands of dollars gone in a few seconds.

[LexAir]

At the outset, I wish to state that this post is neither for or against either a pilot's or employer's point of view; however, I think it is time to place both employers and employees on notice with regard to the law of "unjust enrichment" "unconscionable conduct" and the equitable remedy of "restitution".

Whilst this is a complex and dynamic area of law I offer the following simplification to raise awareness amongst air pilots and their employers but with the following caveat: In any legal matter, always seek legal advice from a qualified legal practitioner!

If a relationship is entered into or established through conduct between two parties and one of those parties takes from the other a valuable benefit such as, for the sake of argument, an aircraft type rating there arises an implication that the party providing the valuable benefit will receive adequate compensation in return for the provision of that benefit. In the case of an employer/employee relationship the employer would reasonably expect a fair return of service for benefits granted or gained beyond the normal expectations of the employment agreement i.e the provision of labour.

If an employee were to take a benefit from an employer, such as a type rating, and then elect to leave the employment without giving a reasonable return of service to the employer, the doctrine of unjust enrichment could be relied upon by the employer to launch legal proceedings against the former employee notwithstanding the fact that the Air Pilots Award (the Award) states that the employer is required to provide the training at its expense.

Taking a substantial benefit in the form of a type rating or other significant expensive enhancement to your licence and qualifications which are, after all, a personal qualification not belonging to the employer and then figuratively thumbing your nose at the employer and saying "so long and thanks for the free expensive endorsement but you can't touch me because I'm protected by the Award" could very well provoke an employer to utilise unjust enrichment as a cause of action in a law suit to recover for loss and damage suffered and seek resitution for monetary loss caused by the unfair behaviour.

Whilst I am not aware of any legal proceedings affirmatively or otherwise settled or as yet launched against an employee (by an employer engaged in the business of general aviation) for unjust enrichment and restitution, any pilot who thinks they are immune from such a suit should seek legal advice.

From a legal and equitable perspective, in my view, pilots contemplating leaving their employ without giving a fair return of service after taking advantage of a substantial enrichment granted by their employer should act cautiously. Furthermore, if you take advantage of the award provisions which enrich you at the employer's expense, knowing that you are not going to give a fair return of service you leave yourself open to legal action by the employer notwithstanding the award provisions. Indeed, knowingly taking financial advantage of your employer could be construed as a fraud and therefore criminal in nature.

In extreme cases of abuse by the employee of the employer's Award obligation to provide training and or qualifications the employer could well and perhaps should, seek restitution from the employee for unconscionable conduct.

The employer/employee relationship works both ways and Awards are still subject to the common and equitable laws of Australia and courts of competent jurisdiction will seek to balance the rights of all parties to a legal proceeding.

So if you, as an employee, enrich yourself by taking a benefit from your employer and don't give a fair return of service or engage in unconscionable or criminal conduct, award or no award, you should beware!

If you are an employer, don't think this area of law gives you a right to abuse the award system or treat employees unfairly because as the law of equity requires; if you want equity then do equity!

[Band a Lot]

Oh the law!


That depends on who hears the case, how they feel on said day/s, what they will be allowed to accept as submittable evidence and much more.


Then take it to appeal and get a different decision.


Take it to a higher court and the decision changes again, appeal that and yep again another change in ruling.

Sad shape of our legal system - so in short.

What your lawyer (legal advice is) only depends on the day in hand regardless of true facts.

* I have never seen a guarantee offered by our legal "expert" folks.

[LexAir]

Such cynicism!

[outnabout]

Just as much as there are owners / operators who don't pay the award, and I agree with Horatio, the award should be paid. If you choose to accept a job where the award is not paid, then what other bills are not being paid (and by accepting such a job, you as an employee are contributing to the rapid decline in GA, as the good operators are undercut by the shonky cowboys - well done!)


Metro Man / Stationair8 - well said!


Most owners / operators work harder than any staff member, in the vain hope that they will have an asset to sell when it comes to retirement - now there's a laugh!


Along the way, imagine the joy if an owner were able to bill an employee for a damage to company equipment caused by thoughtlessness or lack of respect or laziness......


Do burnouts in the company car / overrun the data allowance by watching videos on Youtube / double the fuel burn on the company vehicle by taking a potential shag touring on your day off / bog the company vehicle on a beach and get caught by the tide while going fishing on your day off / over-run the allotted flight time on a scenic flight because you want to impress the hot backpacker in the RHS / install Tinder on the company mobile (and exceed the data allowance making your selection)....... All examples from the last 6 months that I have heard of.


All expenses to the owner / operator, and yet not recoverable....


It also has to be said, for a larger company with managers or an employed Chief Pilot, if the company goes bust, staff walk away and find another job. The owner usually isn't so lucky....

[LexAir]

The Award does not protect an employee from the legal consequences arising as a result of of reckless, unlawful/illegal, wilful bad behaviour causing loss and damage to the employer.
There seems to be a prevailing notion that pilot employees are immune from all action to recover for loss and damage no matter what the behaviour of a pilot. This is definitely not the case.