Friday Liar 19.5.17

[mngmt mole]

A few points need highlighting:

1) the admission that CC, and the training ban are having a deleterious effect on the operation, hence the need to contract Atlas. This should be comforting as it is proof that we ARE having a serious effect. The management may wish to be bloody minded about it up to the present date, but eventually they will have to negotiate a proper settlement. Apply CC in every way possible. After all, you are only doing your jobs according to your contract.

2) Bases: yet another example of how the company is willing to manipulate and cynically play with peoples (families) lives and happiness. They have been using bases as an industrial tool for over 10 years now. They want to get us to roll over and compromise on terms and conditions on bases. That will eventually be used against all pilots on all bases (and HK). Simply say no. It should also be pointed out that the problem with the NY base is yet again the company's failure to research all issues properly (a 24 year history of that and counting). They have found there is a legal impediment to their overtime credit plans, and of course, they now want the pilots to pay the price. Again, simply say no.

3) Freighter crew 'constraints': an admission (as if we needed one) that they currently can't crew the freighters properly. Considering that the sickness rate is off the charts, as well as average hours well below the normal 84 credit level, they instead have to hire an outside company to properly service some of our contracts (or incur huge financial penalties). Again, when they come to their senses and negotiate a proper contract with the pilots, then we will show 'goodwill' to help solve their problems (unless they leave it so late that none of us care anymore).

The cracks in the company are showing, and growing wider. Their usual arrogance and stubbornness will take them even further down the road of loss and chaos before a grownup will finally say 'enough'. Hopefully that day isn't too far away. In the meantime, be certain that the management have brought us to this sorry place, and they have the ability to fix it. More of the same (intimidation, rostering chaos, tinkering) will not suffice. Sit on your hands, do your jobs and know that we are the ones who have been abused and mistreated.

[Avinthenews]

While constantly changing rosters increase the fatigue level resulting in a loss of some pilots, logically the pilots that are working should be bouncing along at 90+ hrs a month.

That is simply NOT happening, thus as usual CX is full of ****.

YOUR jets are sitting on the ground for in excess of 12hrs a day and YOUR crew are barely doing 60hrs a month.

It's your incompetence and arrogance CX management that means Atlas is the answer.

Watch how bad it gets fot the CX 747 operation when scheduling and ICM have to react to keeping the Atlas contact running perfectly so you can say "see atlas was a great idea".

Buttheads

[The FUB]

And after a successful ATLAS "trial" a limited no of airframes will be loaned to ATLAS to continue said trial. The B747 is becoming too troublesome, too many are not being intimidated, too many fatigued and going UF, too many near miss incidents due fatigue.

Rather than fix the roster the whole train set will be offloaded at the nearest pawn store for a fraction of its worth, along with those pesky pilots. Time To Whine.

[cxorcist]

Another possibility is that CX will simply siphone off more and more freighter flying to Atlas, perhaps with aircraft included at some point. Emirates has Atlas crews fly their 2 x 747-400 freighters. Honestly, I don't care. Get rid of all the freighters if you want to have Atlas make most of the money. Seriously, good riddance to a fleet that literally kills people.

[betpump5]

I'm interested to see what Sam Ting "CC is having no effect" Wong will say regarding Point 1.

Then again, no I'm not.

[White Knight]

Emirates has Atlas crews fly their 2 x 747-400 freighters.

Except that Emirates only has 777 freighters. The 747s are Atlas owned and operated!

[Average Fool]

Unfortunately I think this is just another example of what management will do to exert control and save face at all costs.

This will inevitably turn out to be just another stuff up that would have cost much less had the company done things right in the first place.

Time to Win, for Atlas

[cxorcist]

Except that Emirates only has 777 freighters. The 747s are Atlas owned and operated!

According to Wikipedia, Emirates Sky Cargo leases the two 747-400ERFs from ASL Airlines Belgium, and Atlas provides crew and operates them.

[The Visionary]

This weeks Friday Liar has her asking (tricking) us into thinking we are getting something with CMP/PBS. Meanwhile they violate the RPS AND AFTLs on a daily basis. NO MORE!

Dear Ms T, NO MORE COMMITMENTS UNTIL WE GET ONE FORM YOU!

Dear HKAOA, DO NOT TALK TO THEM UNTIL WE GET A COMMITMENT FROM THEM. How did that GFBA/RA work out for us?

I personally love the "People Departments" Person, TOs, address to us this week. What utter BS. Stop already. We don't buy managements rubbish nonsense talk anymore.

Dear CAD, Please remove AT as DFO, she is not fit to be a DFO. Thank you.

[RAT Management]

Get set to have the CMP failure blamed on the pilots as usual. We have been set up....now they just need to knock us down.... again!

[Shot Nancy]

"Pissing the night away".

[Trafalgar]

CR, you and I have disagreed on many things, but you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY with your post. I think we have wasted enough man hours/years dealing with these disingenuous and Machiavellian people. List our demands, list all the broken promises and outright lies and then tell them that they know where to find us when they can get serious. Otherwise, as someone else mentioned, set a date a year from now for a review of the situation. Until then they can deal with CC/TB and let the the chips fall where they may.

Oh, and btw, we MUST NOT fall into the trap of sourcing our own health care. I believe that is exactly the company's strategy. Put the burden for looking after ourselves and our families onto our own account. It is the company's moral responsibility (and therein lies the problem) to provide full and effective coverage to their hard working staff and families. If there was ever a reason to down tools, this should be it.

[Farman Biplane]

Maybe we can use the "cost savings" from the currently budgeted, but unfunded and soon to be cancelled CMP project to put into a pilot only health insurance fund?
Or, will the virtual savings just be a magnificent justification for future bonuses?
Now that the majority of HK based pilots are on local packages, why do they need "expat" legacy health benefits?

[Average Fool]

A healthy bonus is required to attract and retain competent leaders.

CX obviously needs to up the bonus package by tenfold!!

Gordon??? Herb??? My 9 year old son???

[airplaneridesrfun]

The facts are that we are 35-45% underpaid for the aircraft we fly. Also, we do not have a proper pension, or health insurance. There is no real bidding system. Pilots can't bid for an aircraft type change every two years (to keep seniority in check). If you are RQ, you are working as a Captain on almost every flight for free - Other airlines would have two Captains for most of our Long haul flights. At the same time, you are sacrificing your upgrade. Trainers and Checkers have given their lives to the company, and people who work in the office have sacrificed their souls for the company.... and they are not being compensated properly for this level of work.

Now, lets get this show moving. United + 3% sounds good to me for pay, and might as well throw in the rest of their contract too. Otherwise, lets shut this place down. it's not rocket science.

[cxorcist]

I'm sure that CX would be happy to do United +3% if we are happy to rid them of housing and education allowances. UAL doesn't have those. Might want to reconsider that plan...

[Captain Dart]

Trainers and checkers are well remunerated for their extra responsibility. They volunteer for it, and don't do it out of charity. They don't 'give their lives'. They can always quit training. Some of them on this forum bang on about how bad things are but continue to 'help' the company in this role.

It can also be argued that they are voluntarily diluting our contract by training pilots who are on lower conditions than their own, who will eventually replace them and us, thereby contributing to the Race to the Bottom.

cxorcist, would I be right in saying that UAL pilots would be living in their home country, and would not require housing and education, just like CX based crew, as opposed to a fit and proper 'expat' package that HKG pilots should be getting?

[Average Fool]

The facts are that we are 35-45% underpaid

Now, lets get this show moving. United + 3% sounds good to me for pay, and might as well throw in the rest of their contract too. Otherwise, lets shut this place down. it's not rocket science.


Its not rocket science at all. Its called unity.

And this pilot group does not have enough of it to even get Cathay +3%

[Cpt. Underpants]

It can also be argued that they are voluntarily diluting our contract by training pilots who are on lower conditions than their own, who will eventually replace them and us, thereby contributing to the Race to the Bottom

Every trainer, ever, has "trained their replacements". That's what trainers do. Train.

[White None]

Maybe it's a different point then, but subtract trainers from your personal history and work out where you'd be.
(No I'm not a trainer)

[Freehills]

This weeks Friday Liar has her asking (tricking) us into thinking we are getting something with CMP/PBS. Meanwhile they violate the RPS AND AFTLs on a daily basis. NO MORE!

Dear Ms T, NO MORE COMMITMENTS UNTIL WE GET ONE FORM YOU!

Dear HKAOA, DO NOT TALK TO THEM UNTIL WE GET A COMMITMENT FROM THEM. How did that GFBA/RA work out for us?

I personally love the "People Departments" Person, TOs, address to us this week. What utter BS. Stop already. We don't buy managements rubbish nonsense talk anymore.

Dear CAD, Please remove AT as DFO, she is not fit to be a DFO. Thank you.


Given who has been put in charge of CMP, I think that is an admission that CMP ain't going anywhere fast

[Cpt. Underpants]

I'm pretty sure that as each successive trainer chucks it in, the training workload gets progressively and exponentially more difficult to sustain with available manpower. More trainers resign as a consequence, workload gets harder, more resign etc.
The machine is rolling along and results are coming. Be patient. It's happening.

[Trafalgar]

Firstly, stop putting the onus on trainers. We are all in different jobs because of a career progression that has long been recognised. Having said that, if (IF) the AOA designs, votes and implements a strategy to have trainers resign in a recognised and fair format, then i'm all for it. I will, as I have done for over 20+ years, comply with an AOA directive. Make the motion, second it and then vote on it.

[Trafalgar]

Everybody looks to everybody else to solve 'their' problem. Utlimately, we all need to look at ramping up the CC/TB. Even the trainers will need the cover of the AOA when things start getting that ugly. Or have you forgotten the nature of the beast that we work for?

[Shep69]

The TB is truly a choke point. The company has been betting heavy on being able to generate enough new (cheaper working) bodies who have no idea what has been going on or what's about to happen to them. Their frame of reference is completely different than people who've been here awhile. And it takes time to figure out what's been happening (especially optimistic sorts who spend their time chasing fleeting disingenuous pie-in-the sky promises of sunshine, bases, PBS, and unicorns)--usually several years--by which time the 'Las Vegas' syndrome is apt to kick in.

But the TB doesn't work if people are constantly coming up with reasons to go in or stay in. Everyone would have a reason and no reason is better than any other. We're ALL special :) .

The training and certification process in HKG is extremely onerous and time consuming (as is some of the recurrent stuff). More so than many other venues; especially when switching seats or other upgrades. This is an incredible advantage toward forwarding a negotiation position in that sitting jets are wayyyy expensive when not earning their keep.

CC bridles availability; TB bridles supply (especially given the high degree of overhead in self-maintenance).

As far as the OP, I'm getting tired of the rhetoric and positional BS so's I'm a little less apt to read what comes from the top. If I want fake news to arouse my ire I can get better written fake stuff from the NYT or Washington Post.

[goathead]

Firstly, stop putting the onus on trainers. We are all in different jobs because of a career progression that has long been recognised. Having said that, if (IF) the AOA designs, votes and implements a strategy to have trainers resign in a recognised and fair format, then i'm all for it. I will, as I have done for over 20+ years, comply with an AOA directive. Make the motion, second it and then vote on it.

Unfortunately Trafalgar is correct
It will be the only way to table a motion, their is no way you are going to be able to convince these types to man up and see the light.Look at some of the junior trainers that were like rats up a drainpipe into training .Filth.
Most if not all of them are too self interested in number one, they will never get it period.

[Starbear]

Thanks for the update Anna but as usual you are way behind. The new Boeing FTM, ME let the cat out of the bag more than a week ago. Thank goodness the CAD ratified his position, otherwise that could have been embarrassing no? No, you are probably right, that even they don't give a crap.

Anyway enjoy your holiday. Just think seven glorious weeks stateside, just to learn from experts that you are actually useless. You could have gleaned that from here much earlier.

[BlunderBus]

How on earth will we function without you?

[BlunderBus]

The skull back as sim instructor now head of sim training in one gigantic bound .. oh goody

[Starbear]

The skull back as sim instructor now head of sim training in one gigantic bound .. oh goody

Actually, if you look at it again he is head of simulator not the actual sim training. Look at who the sim fleet mangers report to. The job descriptions further down spell out the differences. All part of a plan to sell off the training facility.......allegedly.

[Starbear]

Coming to an winning airline near you soon! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MY31rOZ2tk)

[Flex88]

Particularly good reading this one. Our esteemed ADFO (GMF on Steroids) can certainly wax poetic and my guess is he ran off and paid out of his own pocket for one of the Swire business courses (Insead ++) as he certainly has the BS lingo down. He must spend his Sundays practicing at gatherings.
Still searching for that elusive additional promotion he has the art of obfuscation down pat..
Really to bad though that he can't focus that much attention and energy to company manuals (Ops A, FCOMs Part XX etc.) and ensure they are up to date and relevant. The job he he actually gets paid to do..
One can only wish:D:D

[Starbear]

my guess is he ran off and paid out of his own pocket for one of the Swire business courses (Insead ++)

In fact I believe, he has already been on said course and enjoyed it so much he had to do it twice....allegedly.

[Progress Wanchai]

In fact I believe, he has already been on said course and enjoyed it so much he had to do it twice....allegedly.

He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but he can say "yes" better than any puppet they've had before.
I'd expect no less (and no more) from any self respecting former Training FO's.

[Flex88]

EXCELLENT observation PW.

#MCXGA