And the Best A320 Contract in Europe is?

[Andrew7]

Well there are many around but there is still one where you are treated like a human being, you are respected and work with friendly professional people........ plus a decent place to be, and on your day off you can get a suntan Any guesses??

[samca]

Vueling .....

[Andrew7]

possibly but I was thinking Aegean ....... total breathe of fresh air ... very uniusual in this day and age

[Scuderia46]

Easyjet Italy / France. Very good contracts and nice bases.

[EPST]

To meet the above stated requirements ezy on a permanent contract in one of the Italian bases.

MXP, 5-4 roster with preferencial bidding, decent pension scheme, €9000 for a captain after taxes. And loyalty + performance bonus ;)

[Kim Jong Il]

Preferencial bidding with easy? How does that work? You bid for which airport you can do your 25 minute turn around

[Scuderia46]

Nope, you can bid for either late or early duties which means you can have some sort of control on your social life. You can plan ahead and don't have to wait for rosters to come out cause you already know your days off. 9000 euros net for a captain, with their loyalty bonus included you are looking at 10000 euros net. Plus you're a captain after 5 / 6 years. Name me an airline in Europe with such a stable roster and good salary in such a short time.

FO's earn 5000 net and SFO 6000 net. In France FO salaries are slightly higher. I'm pretty sure there are few FO's in Europe on that salary in the beginning of their career and having a 5-4 roster.

P.S. All on permanent contracts of course with a pension. Not that Ryanair crap with zero hour contracts and vague tax deals.

[Andrew7]

This is good to hear so far we have 3 contenders Vueling/Aegean/EasyJet .. you see I don't see that there is a pilot shortage ... but there are Airlines with total lack of respect or interest in their crews ...it has got so bad recently that a lot of decent high housed guys just prefer to sit at home .. and why not. We chose flying as a rewarding career not to be treated by some of these Airlines like we don't exist unless it suits them. At least if you go to China they pay you well to be treated like a second class citizen. For me it's about working for a caring Airline that respects my life and the fact that I have one outside of Aviation and treats me well. A decent salary helps of course.

[akindofmagic]

easyJet Switzerland is more or less on a par with the other continental bases. c.8000CHF net for SFO, c.11000CHF net for captains, preferential bidding (which seems to be working better and better), 10% bonus after five years (15% after ten), excellent pension, part time readily available. Hard work, no fixed pattern, but a fairly good deal overall.

[SextanteUK]

I'd love to fly for Easyjet out of Switzerland, and it looks like a pretty decent deal like you say, but cost of living is extremely high over there, isn't it? :ugh:

[akindofmagic]

Cost of living in Switzerland is very high. Many people offset the cost by living over the border in France.

[drag king]

Certainly not VLG... They are not even close to acceptable conditions at times...

There is more to meet the eye, IMHO.

After the horrific 2016-summer fiasco, the airline is putting in place some measures to avoid repeating it. Life is much easier for everyone right now.

Money is a semi-sore point: you won't get even near those eJ's figures (not that they impress me too much, without taking a snapshot of an average-daily/monthly roster...) but you can count of some decent perks such as ZED for partner/kids (and now two more names with IB), extracrew for your weekly commuting and unlimited staff travel on VY network for up to eight people plus 24 standby-sectors of free eligibility.

Benefits: similar to those of a semi-legacy airline but I don't have anything to compare against to, so I wouldn't stress this too much. I am sure eJ & C. are not too far off.

Bases: obviously an almost-perfect match if you are a spaniard but not too bad for Italian, French, Dutch or even some Brits too.

Company's general attitude: well...is anyone 100% happy with theirs out there? Without going too much into details, I would like to see Paris-based folks be given BETTER terms in order to match the horrendous costs of living there and the CCs T&C bumped up a fair bit.

If you are young and/or single, without strings attached, free-spirited then this wagon might be worth jumping on. It surely was for me but be aware that I binned my rode-tinted specs loooong ago, so I am defo NOT biased.

Horses for courses folks!

[CaptainProp]

Aegean?! Honestly, this business is doomed. Have you seen the pay they are "offering"?!

[The African Dude]

Name me an airline in Europe with such a stable roster and good salary in such a short time.

Not even easyJet, in fact. Because as a Captain, you ain't getting an MXP base for years and years.

More realistically you might get that kind of money in VCE but on a flexible roster with no predictability over your roster or over when your base might get closed.

[Kim Jong Il]

Nope, you can bid for either late or early duties which means you can have some sort of control on your social life. You can plan ahead and don't have to wait for rosters to come out cause you already know your days off. 9000 euros net for a captain, with their loyalty bonus included you are looking at 10000 euros net. Plus you're a captain after 5 / 6 years. Name me an airline in Europe with such a stable roster and good salary in such a short time.

FO's earn 5000 net and SFO 6000 net. In France FO salaries are slightly higher. I'm pretty sure there are few FO's in Europe on that salary in the beginning of their career and having a 5-4 roster.

P.S. All on permanent contracts of course with a pension. Not that Ryanair crap with zero hour contracts and vague tax deals.

Wow, where can I sign? SFO on WB and make less then 6000 Nett.. Good for you guys!

[dirk85]

Yeah, the waiting list to go to Italy as a Captain is extremely long in EZY. And before you can reach those SFO figures you need at least 4 years in the company (and still 6000 is on the optimistic side).
Forget about Venice too, the criterias to go there now are not seniority based anymore.

[Andrew7]

Captainprop not sure where you get that from The pay is not too bad at all plus I get my accommodation paid for ... staff and Interline travel on star alliance network , nicely maintained aircraft , really nice cabin crew plus a company that is successful and making a lot of money annually .. I am content ...

[flyhigh788]

@Andrew: Are you a contractor or directly employed?

[alshep]

I would say easyJet is the best outfit right now on the A320. Good stable company, nice fixed roster (if you're lucky to have it) and you sleep at home most of the time.

Vueling is not bad provided you're a high seniority captain in your home base, specially if you're also LSC/TRE, at least money-wise.

I would also add Aer Lingus, they look nice.

Legacy carriers obviously are there... but let's not take them into account today...

[a350pilots]

easySwiss deal is not that good as you need to consider the high living costs in Switzerland.
SFO salary is maybe trippel the salary you get at Migros at the supermarket employee in the 1st year.

People who are living at France or Germany are being highly taxed, and hardly no lifestyle for non-Swiss citizen living in the Swiss side. For sure most Swiss poeple will not welcome you as you always be a foreigner for them := And btw it is NOT European, but an island on the continent :D

[Scuderia46]

Yeah, the waiting list to go to Italy as a Captain is extremely long in EZY. And before you can reach those SFO figures you need at least 4 years in the company (and still 6000 is on the optimistic side).
Forget about Venice too, the criterias to go there now are not seniority based anymore.

True, 4 years. So? In the years before that you're still on a good salary in Italy and also with a 5-4 roster. It is correct that the waiting list is long so if you really want to go to Italy you either delay your command or take command and commute or a combination of the two. Of course also depends on your private life whether thats based in Italy yes or no.

And not sure why you think 6000 is on the optimistic side. Basic pay for an SFO is 4900 net. Add all the daily allowances ( diaria ) and sectorpay to that and you'll easily make 6000. Maybe in some winter months it's slightly less but in the summer its over 6k. So on average: 6000 net per month. I know captains in other companies who fly for less.

[flyer4life]

Haha, if EZY's "work your ass off on regular 10/11 hour 4/5 sector days" is the best we can do in Europe, then we're in trouble.

What is the captain package at Aegeon then?

[booze]

Hi,

I was offered 8000 net after swiss (huge question mark...?) taxes plus accommodation based in Athens or Cyprus from May until October.

[heberzub]

And out of curiosity... what about WZZ?

[Scuderia46]

Haha, if EZY's "work your ass off on regular 10/11 hour 4/5 sector days" is the best we can do in Europe, then we're in trouble.

What is the captain package at Aegeon then?

Nah it's not like that anymore, a lot has been improved since last year. But I can imagine it's hard to accept that a low cost airline offers one of the best A320 packages in Europe.

[Una Due Tfc]

I would also add Aer Lingus, they look nice.

They'll be doing 321LR runs to NYC, BOS etc in a couple of years if that's people's thing.

[booze]

And out of curiosity... what about WZZ?

Not as bad as many people would think. If you are willing to stick around until 3-4000hrs command plus LTC in the company (5% incr. on both basic and sector for every 1000hr in command) your figures could be matching those of EZY. Otherwise as a new captain expect around 5000EUR after tax on a local contract or 6k+ as a service provider. If you are non type rated expect a deduction of around 400EUR per month for 3 years...

[KayPam]

Haha, if EZY's "work your ass off on regular 10/11 hour 4/5 sector days" is the best we can do in Europe, then we're in trouble.

What is the captain package at Aegeon then?

And what does any manager or white collar worker in any private company does ?
10, 11, 12 and sometimes even more hours, on a regular 5/2 roster.
Not 5/4, not 4/3, not 5/3, not even 4/2 : 5/2.

For a salary that will have much trouble to compete (especially at such a young age) and a job that will be boring like hell, at least for most people here.

So stop complaining, please. (if it is what your were doing)

I do however reckon the need to complain in order to not see these T&Cs worsen ! Just not here.

[180Knots]

Well there are many around but there is still one where you are treated like a human being, you are respected and work with friendly professional people........ plus a decent place to be, and on your day off you can get a suntan Any guesses??

up! What about 2019?

[Newcomer2]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Air France. Probably THE best 320 contract in Europe...

[763 jock]

How many non French nationals are employed as pilots in Air France?

[180Knots]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Air France. Probably THE best 320 contract in Europe...

any numbers? what about Aegean, bit surprised that was mentioned.

[Thad Jarvis]

For FO’s it’s probably Aer Lingus. Still ‘legacy’ sort of, on 5/3 roster. 2/3 yrs to 330 with US East Coast in the pipeline for 321’s - if that’s your thing. Money and pension good.

[Newcomer2]

How many non French nationals are employed as pilots in Air France?

There are a few for sure. At least from the UK and Belgium.
And what's your point? The question is about the best contracts in Europe, not the UK. I'm pretty sure you cannot be hired at Lufthansa without speaking German, Alitalia without speaking Italian, Iberia without speaking Spanish,...
if you can speak French and have the right to live and work in Europe, you have the same chances as any other candidates. AF doesn't discriminate based on nationality.

[dirk85]

British nationals making the effort to learn fluently another language? Are you kidding? :eek: :E

[763 jock]

There are a few for sure. At least from the UK and Belgium.
And what's your point? The question is about the best contracts in Europe, not the UK. I'm pretty sure you cannot be hired at Lufthansa without speaking German, Alitalia without speaking Italian, Iberia without speaking Spanish,...
if you can speak French and have the right to live and work in Europe, you have the same chances as any other candidates. AF doesn't discriminate based on nationality.


Who said anything about the UK? I didn't. I asked how many non French nationals are employed by AF as this was being suggested as being one of the best 320 jobs in Europe.

How many non French nationals are employed as Captains in AF? It's a reasonable question. If you are worried about any sort of discrimination (I didn't bring that into the discussion either) then surely the figures can be used to disprove any such suggestion.

[captain.weird]

For FO’s it’s probably Aer Lingus. Still ‘legacy’ sort of, on 5/3 roster. 2/3 yrs to 330 with US East Coast in the pipeline for 321’s - if that’s your thing. Money and pension good.

What about commuting from West Europe? Anyone doing that with AL or is BA/VS a better option?

[Newcomer2]

Who said anything about the UK? I didn't. I asked how many non French nationals are employed by AF as this was being suggested as being one of the best 320 jobs in Europe.

How many non French nationals are employed as Captains in AF? It's a reasonable question. If you are worried about any sort of discrimination (I didn't bring that into the discussion either) then surely the figures can be used to disprove any such suggestion.

If it was a genuine question then I apologize. I thought you were implying that AF only hires French nationals, which is wrong.

[MCDU2]

What about commuting from West Europe? Anyone doing that with AL or is BA/VS a better option?

Some try, for some it works for others its a failure. We don't have commuting rosters and I haven't seen any appetite from management to go down this path to retain foreign pilots (we lose quite a few that join after a while as they logically want to be close to home). We have a preferential bidding rostering system which sometimes gives you what you want and other times not. There is little transparency on why it works or fails but you can email someone if you can be bothered. The commuters are mainly on the longhaul who have a different rostering system and days off following a trip. Those commuting on short haul will invariably bid for as many overnights away from Dublin as possible to reduce accommodation costs (you are not in any way guaranteed these as they are highly sought after from contracting commuters as well as the young FOs). Rosters can be "Friday changed" for the following week (Monday to Sunday) but your published FREE days cannot be changed. We work a 5 on 3 off roster but a few times a year this can be reduced to 5/2 for a month. Also our network and pairings is not as extensive as someone like BA so bear in mind that you may finish a rostered duty and miss your last flight home or find that during winter we have reduced frequency. If you are starting a week of earlies which typically have reporting times around 0600 then you will need to be in the night previous. The reverse happens on lates where you will most likely miss the last flight home on your day 5 so will be commuting on your days off. It would be very difficult to try and organise a swap to finish early on a series of late duties to facilitate you going home if there is a flight due to FTLs and rest periods (assuming the other person is willing to swap). Its your responsibility to be in work for reporting time and missing a connection due to snow, late arrivals, cancellations etc won't be tolerated by management. All of these factors will have an influence on whether you can or are prepared for the potential stress of trying to organise swaps to make your roster work.

Bear in mind that EI is an Irish airline and is managed out of Dublin although we have a small flight crew base in Cork. You need to appreciate this fact if you intend on joining. Its entire thought process is essentially Dublin centric and its always been that way. Most foreigners that join tend to find that its just as easy to set up roots here in Ireland than it is to mess about stressing over your roster from month to month. Problem therein is the high costs of living. Before joining run the numbers through an online tax calculator and do a google search on cost of living in Dublin.

On the plus side - commuting can be free if you can make it work. You can JS in uniform anywhere on our network so long as the Captain gives approval.

[Maxfli]

They'll be doing 321LR runs to NYC, BOS etc in a couple of years if that's people's thing.

2 A321LRs this summer I understand, more for winter and more again for 2020.
LH is about a 2 year wait and commuters tend to opt for West Coast US....LAX, SFO, SEA which are 3 day trips followed by 4 days off.
If you're senior enough you can go West on a Monday, back Wed midday, commute home and have Thurs - Sun at home.
Depending on check-in for next trip you may have to travel on Sunday to be in place to operate West on the Monday, most try and swap for a later check-in.

Yes..housing is expensive and tax is high, can't help you there but watch that space in UK shortly.
However, who else is offering the EI pilot pay-scale (PPJN is accurate) along with a DB final salary pension scheme with a 21% company contribution?
We don't have B747s.....so if you are set on flying them your choice is narrow and we haven't got 380s either, sorry nothing with more than 2 engines.
Nearly all recent departures have been pilots returning to their country of birth.
Some new joiners have come from BA to EI for the same reason.
Wide spectrum of new guys from the Desert, former residents of Iceland, 737 LCCs (blue & red) and regionals.

If anyone wants details pm me and I will attempt to get chapter & verse.
Best wishes to those looking for the home of their choice.

[booze]

Ladies and Gents,

Any thoughts on the thread/subject after the recent bankruptcies and a few more to come, I'm afraid...? Me, personally stopped looking in Euroland...

Cheers,

Booze

[CaptainProp]

The people from past 24 months’ bankruptcies hardly changed anything on the european market as there’s been more than enough expansion to hoover up the surplus. Plus you will always have some % heading to asia and ME.

CP

[Busdriver01]

Yes..housing is expensive and tax is high, can't help you there but watch that space in UK shortly.


when you say watch that space...???

[FlightDetent]

The people from past 24 months’ bankruptcies hardly changed anything on the european market as there’s been more than enough expansion to hoover up the surplus. Plus you will always have some % heading to asia and ME.
Expansion in terms of Eurowings and Wizzair salaries is not really a gigantic leap in the right direction. I understand that EZY (with good commuting options and part time) at Berlin has stopped / filled about 2 months ago, not sure about other bases. Thus for the SA fleet, if wanting to stay living home the best EU contract is probably Beijing Capital (leaving HNA Group soon) on 4/4 wks. :)

[sekmeth]

Expansion in terms of Eurowings and Wizzair salaries is not really a gigantic leap in the right direction. I understand that EZY (with good commuting options and part time) at Berlin has stopped / filled about 2 months ago, not sure about other bases. Thus for the SA fleet, if wanting to stay living home the best EU contract is probably Beijing Capital (leaving HNA Group soon) on 4/4 wks. :)
whats wrong woth the eurowings contract?
they paid my type and I start with 4300euro, plus around 400-500 per diem per month. Home every night and at least 10 days of per month. Parttime options available.

[dirk85]

There you are, 4300 gross a month and 10 days off a month is now considered good. Self-explanatory really.

[FlightDetent]

@sekmeth: Are the figures you quote netto after all applicable single person's tax, for an F/O position at 750 hrs/y?

[VJW]

There you are, 4300 gross a month and 10 days off a month is now considered good. Self-explanatory really.

Guess you’re assuming that’s a gross figure - which it may well be. Probably ok for me to then assume that as he/she brought up the fact eurowings paid for their type rating, they’re also a cadet/newly qualified pilot.

Exactly how much do you think newbies should be getting paid? 4300 gross a month plus about 5000/yr in per diem is probably on par (if not more) with what BA pay their whitetail cadets?

[dirk85]

BA is not exactly setting the bar very high when talking about pilot salaries, let's be honest.
We are talking about the best contracts in Europe in this thread, and 4300 gross might be average in the f***ed up state the industry is in the old continent, but should not even enter the discussion when talking about the best conditions.

We could write pages on what each of us consider the minimum acceptable for this job, but considering the investment required, the amount of stress, fatigue, the continuous checking and training required, moving from one side of the world to the other, personally I would not be happy to accept anything less than 4000/4500 after taxes plus pension and benefits, and that's for a FO without that much experience. An FO with 10 years of experience or more should look for (much) more than that, obviously.
I am not saying one should refuse 4300 gross a month as first job, but settling on that kind of money, and considering that good and industry-leading conditions, that's another story, and probably one of the reasons things will not improve anytime soon.

[VJW]

Another reason being the ideology that just because you forked out £100k in training you’re suddenly entitled to certain T&C’s. Think it’s safe to say you enjoy exaggerating a bit. To be clear, they didn’t say that was a gross figure and certainly didn’t say it was the top possible earnings on the RHS in Eurowings. They actually said that’s what they ‘start’ on. My gut reaction was that it’s wasn’t too bad to start with and they were only defending Eurowings from an earlier comment. For some reason you’re assuming a lot in the glass half empty direction. Personally having flown for over 10 years of which 6 have been on the left I find the job easy. Ok sometimes it’s windy and icy on landing but planning properly tends to nullify the stress. Continuous training and checking? The handful of sims a year (which I find are beneficial to me more than my employer), a yearly medical and (for me now) a line check every other year is hardly demanding. Let’s be honest on a normal sector- what % of the job is stressing you out?

FWIW if I fly with a FO with 10 years experience now, alarm bells start to ring long before I worry about what they make.

I remember a time my ex was unemployed for a short spell and on the phone with someone regarding her unemployment benefit. When that person asked her how many hours her partner worked a week, she was told that I too could claim unemployment (or jobseekers) benefit. Wouldn’t have been wise to do so while also making a 6 figure salary but hopefully you get the point...

[FlightDetent]

A320 TR should not deduct more than 400 EUR/mth over a three-year apprentice period.
6 figures is 9k/month, we're getting not excited about half that.
BTW I was pulling a mickey, and sekmeth actually being ironic I suppose, since the word is that Laudamotion on a weak month does not hit 5k netto for PIC.

RYR is a good, middle-of-the-field benchmark looking at salaries/days off. Same EZY on the GER/IT/FR/UK contracts, market forces fully deployed. A peek at LEVEL Austria on PPJN, probably same as EW and WZ, reveals almost 2-3 k EUR net less than the leading LoCos for an average PIC. Hence my comments about absorbing / expansion happening on the lower ladders.

[VJW]

6 figures is 9k/month, we're getting not excited about half that.

Yeah I’m aware- the reason I mentioned that story was to show that even the authorities think we work part time hours.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Is it possible to commute if employed thru Easyjet Switzerland with regards to the roster on offer? Do they have a seniority system?

[dirk85]

There is a random roster in switzerland, commuting would be extremely difficult. No seniority system, except for part time requests.

[Daddy Fantastic]

There is a random roster in switzerland, commuting would be extremely difficult. No seniority system, except for part time requests.

Thank you, so with regards to random roster I take it that means no 5 on /4 off etc. Would you be able to tell me approximately how many days a month you would work and get off?

[dirk85]

Exactly, no fixed pattern. I work on a different contract, but in a random month you can have anything from 8 to 12 days off. Make it about 12/15 days flying plus the standbies.
No way you can commute on that roster long term.