EK Cargo

[donpizmeov2]

EK Cargo 28 days on and 15 days off! Real or just smoke?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Strange as the natural combo would be 42 days e.g. 28 and 14 then it's easier to roll

[Nedul]

Strange as the natural combo would be 42 days e.g. 28 and 14 then it's easier to roll

Yes but.........we all know 42, is really just 30!

[Matulee084]

My first post here. Have been offered an interview and the cargo contract might be interesting for me. Note I said might.
But what really is behind the 15 days off? Is it really a comuting thing?
Please all insights from you would be really appreciated.
Safe flights,

[lospilotos]

My first post here. Have been offered an interview and the cargo contract might be interesting for me. Note I said might.
But what really is behind the 15 days off? Is it really a comuting thing?
Please all insights from you would be really appreciated.
Safe flights,

Well to start with, it's 28/13 not 28/15...

[halas]

The internal cargo contract never mentioned once that it was a commuting contract.

There was also no part of the T&C's that mention (the most important part of cummuting contracts)......tickets.

halas

[glofish]

Matulee

The Cargo offer/"contract" is exactly that, a C-scale offer from a desperate EK for even more desperate pilots.

Our A-scale has been eroded from day 1, is effectively a B-minus-scale today. The conditions/"contract" have been disregarded, disrespected and changed unilaterally from day 1.
Today it is a slim shadow of what ii once was.

Take the offered conditions and multiply it with our shared experience of our initial A-scale on here.
That should give you a concise picture of what you'll be facing in a very short period after you have joined.

If you can live with that, be our guest. My bet is that after that very short period you'll feel tricked, stuck, left alone (from all sides) and extremely exhausted.
Not worth the change in my opinion.

[Matulee084]

Thanks a lot everybody for your advices. I am trying to find something more attractive somewhere but the way things are going down the drain where I live, maybe I will be forced to take this one, IF I pass the screening process, of course.
I though I could use the tickets to comute to and from my hometown ( there's a direct flight) but, as you said, they can change everything at their will.
Would it be too naive to ask you if acomodations in Dubai would be offered on the " Cargo Contract". Is it possible to rent some kind of crash pad around town ?
I have also applied to the other airline on the other side of the desert but they seem to be waiting on the Alitalia guys and, if honored, the possibility to commute word really be a plus for me. And beside that, I hate China.
One more thing, I'm not that young anymore. Do you think that joining at 45 would preclude me from advancing to captain someday? ( 8 or 10 more years?)
Besides all the cons, it would still be good to share the cockpit with you guys.
Wish you the best luck and blue skies,

Matulee.

[donpizmeov2]

Looks like the only commuting option in the ME... so far! And EK has always been the leading example in the area.

[Flyboy_SG]

Nope ,Saudia has a 20/10 contract with a much better pay scale.

[alwayzinit]

New FCN out "amending" whats on offer from the freighter contract!

If I read between the lines correctly it is STILL a 15% pay cut to be used to fly the line when needed (as in all the time!:ugh:)

Now IF they make it an EXCLUSIVE and NO CROSSOVER to line flying................................

[danny_chi_1975]

now with
1. worldwide educational allowance
2. company accommodation or 12500 (CA) 11000 (FO) AED accommodation allowance + Hotel in Dubai during work cycle.
3. Provident Fund.

[Enos]

It's a step in the right direction.

[TransitCheck]

It's a step in the right direction only. A reduction in accom allowance is understandable while the basic reduction is not. It's not my fault the company will only fly me 600 hours per year rather than 899 while I am essentially sitting reserve in rogue outstations with a fluid schedule.

Keep all the conditions the same, hotel accom while in dubai, reduction in accom allowance (much like whats being offered), and a business class cat C return ticket for every 13 day off period and there may be alot of takers.

[halas]

Your doing less than 900hrs??

halas

[Talparc]

Did you forget the factoring?

[Icarus2001]

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/
now with
1. worldwide educational allowance
2. company accommodation or 12500 (CA) 11000 (FO) AED accommodation allowance + Hotel in Dubai during work cycle.
3. Provident Fund.

The website now shows company accommodation or allowance.

No mention of provident fund only end of service benefit.

Why would they pay an accommodation allowance and give you a hotel in Dubai?

[DuneMentat]

According to the email it is either company accom or allowance or hotel in dxb during work cycle

[halas]

"Why would they pay an accommodation allowance and give you a hotel in Dubai?"

Read the email again.

halas

[jatqual]

Indeed, it's certainly a step in the correct direction. However, why would anyone want the hassle, worry or cost of locating flights to/from Dubai, quite possibly utilizing a port not particularly convenient.

Additionally, surely the nature of cargo flying involves quite some positioning and increased duty times. The 15% wage reduction is nothing but an insult. Typically cargo carriers pay crew a premium owing to the nature of the work.

If the take up is again low and resignations continue at the current rate, there will be little choice other than to increase the package, which is well overdue, for all.

[alwayzinit]

Eventually they will be dragged kicking and screaming to the conclusion we have all known from the getgo.
The only question is, "Why does it take so long before the blindingly obvious is recognised and actioned, by those who are supposed to be, you know, aviation savants?":rolleyes:

[felixthecat]

Provident fund....Yes but at what rate? 21 days a year ( 5.75% !!! )increasing to 30 ( 8.22% !!!) or the same as pax fleet at 12% and 15%..... Devil in the details

[what_goes_up]

The 15% wage reduction is nothing but an insult.
Not that I think this contract is anywhere near of what it should be. But in all fairness... With this contract you offer the company about 15% less working days.
28/13 can be done 8.9 times/year. Within those 28 days you must have a minimum of 6 days off (1 after 7 and 2 in 14). So that is 53 days. Add the 8.9 times 13 (116) and the 12 days of leave you end up with a total of 181 days off work as the minimum. Giving the company a maximum of 184 days of work.

Considering a normal contract with 9 off days/month is 108 plus 42 days of leave equals 150 days/year. Leaving 215 days of work.

184 is roughly 15 less than 215.
If you the consider the fixed costs for the company (sim, gnd school, uniforms, accom, schooling...) which are the same for both groups, the cargo pilots end up more expensive than the rest of us.

Just a simple minds calculation, not claiming to cover all the details...


Geez, I must be really bored... :):):)

[Icarus2001]

"Why would they pay an accommodation allowance and give you a hotel in Dubai?"

Read the email again.


Which email? I am external to EK.

[thatwasclose]

It works out for left seat ...
12,600 dollars
Plus 1500 for the provident fund
Plus say 1,000 flight pay .
The housing allowance is being used as pay if you opt out basically. If you opt in no hotel . Which makes sense . Main line guys can still bid freight , the freight guys will not be able to bid so the crap flights will come . However , for guys who are leaving anyway , or need a change it's an option . Try it , see how it goes and then quit if it does not work .
Schooling paid , flight benefits and insurance kept . Its getting there .

[felixthecat]

Thatwasclose 12,600 dollars
Plus 1500 for the provident fund

It says provident fund but not at what rate......

Flight benefits are not there...... no tickets to get too and from ~Dubai for days off.

[thatwasclose]

Cebrus,
This offer is better than the last one . That's a fact. I don't reckon that's brainwashing .
Brainwashing is is the refusal to see anything in all but one way .

[donpizmeov2]

One think for sure ... if they can managed for the cargo they can do it for the main line as well!

[jatqual]

Too true donpizmeov2

The rest of the world is realizing that unless you're operating from either your home country or have your family / friends with you, a decent paying commutable contract, with all the bells and whistles included, is what both current and potential employees require / desire. The ability to visit loved ones was removed by ATC. Repair the damage or forever chase your tail

[fliion]

Pretty poor mgt here. Throw it out there - no luck, a few weeks later try something different. Looks very amateurish - buy hey we know that.

With these contracts there has to be one big sweetener;
At KAL it's the time off pos J travel, not the money.
With HNA - it's the cash.
With CSA it's the home basings
With EK it's....eh, errr, a little bit here, a little something there that hasn't caught many people's attention.
etc etc.

What's clear by the second offer is they need more guys to do this - those who have the ear of ACP ME - continue let him know it's not enough.

Pos space travel back to DXB (Y upgradeable on the highest possible STBY priority -if need be). Stressing over FABS in your last three days of 13 about whether you get an upgrade is a different proposition than wondering will you get on.

12 mos loss of medical coverage - this is a key point. I know many who have been down and out for between 5-12 mos now back on line thankfully. We all have families to feed, not just pax crew. With these hours year in year out - medical issues will increase. Do not undersell your livelihood - that extra six months is crucial.

[Trader]

It is a lowball offer and, if I had to guess, was highly modified by senior management and accountants. They want the best of both worlds - more productivity AND lower costs and they think pilots will accept it.

Korean is the basic standard for a commuting contract. So why would anyone accept the EK version, which is not even in the same league??

EK could put together a cargo contract that would serve both the pilots AND the company:

1) Keep current pay
2) 19 ON/11 OFF - travel on outside days
3) No housing allowance (saves the co. 150-190,000 dhms a year)
4) No schooling - you are commuting and in your home country
5) No family health plan - don't know the savings but it is substantial
6) Basic provident fund/UAE requirements
7) Confirmed travel to and from DXB is a cost as is the hotel days while in DXB

In this scenario both the company and the pilot benefit. The company save money overall while the pilot gets the commuting contract.

Now get even more creative. You could DH the pilot from his home to the START of any trip outside of DXB. As an example- a trip starts out of AMS you send a European based pilot to start his month in AMS instead of DXB where he would DH back out.

Few if any will stay at EK for what they are offering when there are far better offers out there. Even with the example above the Korean contract is better due to the tax nature and tax paid features which reduce tax liabilty for most nations.

[glofish]

Trader

Nice, but ancient news. They have been told that since 15 years. They would have saved millions, but it did and still does raise their hair, because it tells them right in their faces that living in the ME is inferior to living in civilised countries.
They will not, and most probably never will pay you anything out of their pocket to live in a better place than they do.

That's why the cargo contract can never be what we'd wish:
- Either a reduction in workload with a decent reduction in t&c's for those who wish.
- or a commuter contract with a considerable reduction in remuneration, but a decent lifestyle for those who wish.

The term "win-win" is unacceptable to their culture. For the simple reason that if someone other than them wins, even if they would profit from it as well, it must be "stealing from the company". :ugh:

[trimotor]

There is an additional point: it's not to do with the company benefitting...ultimately, it's about Dubai benefitting - that is the whole reason for the existence of the airline and the number one aim in the company manuals.

TM

[Odins Raven]

Isn't it just partly a case of targeting LoCo pilots from India? Commuting would be easy and relatively cheap for those guys and they'd jump at the chance to earn a bit more than at home. The guys would in general be a bit younger and not need to be at home much as they probably wouldn't have family issues/demands.

It certainly isn't designed for cummuting from anywhere else, particularly over 3 hours away from Dubai.

[fighterkok]

Odins,

You will be surprised how much "Indian" LoCo pilots make. If it were all doom and gloom down there, EK would have been flooded with guys from there, but obviously are not. Looks like most LoCo pilots come from your part of the world to the gulf for a better salary!

FK

[Emma Royds]

Now get even more creative. You could DH the pilot from his home to the START of any trip outside of DXB. As an example a trip starts out of AMS you send a European based pilot to start his month in AMS instead of DXB where he would DH back out.

This was suggested by a number who opted for the initial freighter offering that was created last year. It's not going to rostered anytime in the foreseeable future at least.

[Odins Raven]

This was suggested by a number who opted for the initial freighter offering that was created last year. It's not going to rostered anytime in the foreseeable future at least.

They could position flight crew as supernumerary on the jump seat I guess, as its cost neutral. However, I could never see them paying for crew to position on another airline to an outstation.

[harry the cod]

OR

Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.

They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.

However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....

Harry

[TOGA!]

I have carried positioning crew on jumpseat/4 leather chairs twice now. So the precedent has already been set. If there is ever a management change maybe this could be revisited.

[Odins Raven]

OR

Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.

They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.

However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....

Harry

I'm referring to the likelihood of positioning crew for the crew's own benefit, not the airline's, and you know what I meant Harry. No need to be facetious, I'm not one of your internet sparring buddies. I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the Jet2 comment either?

EK could quite easily position their own crew to an outstation THROUGH Dubai on EK itself. But that would be taking a revenue seat. By not including the dead heading as part of the contract they ensure that they make a profit every time the crew member travels to and from work. Think of it like Costa Coffee... it's a 25% discount but the real cost of production is a fraction of the cost of the drink even after the discount, so they make a huge profit out of crew in need of a boost. Not criticising it just stating a fact.

So I reiterate my OPINION that the Company won't offer deadheading options on other airlines. If you were a manager right now at EK would you suggest to the big boss that he invests some of his money in making profits for other airlines?

[Monarch Man]

Another rather pitiful attempt to lure more oddballs onto the fun fleet. Of course a few more will be tempted, not many though, but a few more.
Im not sure why people get upset or indignant, theres method here after all and that method is all about paying the least.
Upstairs know that the target audience are a bunch of selfish individualistic opportunists aka pilots, who would for the most part sell their first born for a day or two extra off a month and a bit more money, its also clear that the cultural element of 'negotiation' is alive and well, its very reminiscent of a good haggle down in Karama for your Romanian girlfriends genuine Gucci hand bag.
Eventually the price will be right and enough suckers..err takers will be found to put the required bums on seats, everyone has their price.

[Fat Busdriver]

There is an additional point: it's not to do with the company benefitting...ultimately, it's about Dubai benefitting - that is the whole reason for the existence of the airline and the number one aim in the company manuals.

TM

Trimotor, of all the comments on PPRune I have ever read yours is the best!
Understanding why Emirates exists is understanding the big picture!

Well done mate!

[Downtown33]

EK is lowballing the pilot group. For those who aren't familiar with the tactic. This is from the American Management Association website:

The highball/lowball tactic is one of the oldest hardball moves in the book. Your counterpart will open with an extremely high or low offer, which they hope will force you to reconsider your resistance points and goal. If you haven’t done your research, or aren’t aware of what is happening, you may fall for it. The best way to navigate this scenario is to call their offer out and refuse to continue unless they are going to take you seriously. By insisting on a more reasonable opening offer, rather than trying to counter, you force them to continue on your terms while appearing to be more reasonable yourself.

[luvly jubbly]

EK is lowballing the pilot group. For those who aren't familiar with the tactic. This is from the American Management Association website:

The highball/lowball tactic is one of the oldest hardball moves in the book. Your counterpart will open with an extremely high or low offer, which they hope will force you to reconsider your resistance points and goal. If you haven’t done your research, or aren’t aware of what is happening, you may fall for it. The best way to navigate this scenario is to call their offer out and refuse to continue unless they are going to take you seriously. By insisting on a more reasonable opening offer, rather than trying to counter, you force them to continue on your terms while appearing to be more reasonable yourself.

Another way of understanding Downtowns point.
Studies have shown that by opening with an offer no one would take, then offering one slightly better, you will have many more takers for the improved offer than would be the case if you offered that same offer first.

[donpizmeov2]

They are waiting to see where the Alitalian pilots are heading... EK or QR?

[halas]

Apparently 80 slots and 110 applied.

I don't get it.

36 months paid sick leave. Reduced to 6.
42 days leave. Reduced to 12.
No provident fund but ESB.
Can still do flight numbers from 500 - 900. Fk that.
No bidding.
No tickets.

halas

[JAYTO]

why give a ****?

as mentioned above... its not even a B scale.. There will be some EK morons that will do it, and there will be many previously rejected idiots that will get the job.

When you fly with one of them, smile and wave.

J

[fatbus]

1 Sep launch

[fatbus]

Over flow freighters pairings done by line pax pilots

[GMC1500]

I flew with a kiwi FO who was considering taking it and commuting from AKL!

[Icarus2001]

The only way it is any way reasonable is if you can take the housing allowance but not live in in Dubai. So fly out as soon as you fly in from duty. Realistically you are going to have to allow for some hotel nights in Dubai. There was mention somewhere that the company were going to supply hotel in Dubai but I cannot see them doing that and paying AED11,000 a month allowance. It certainly is not mentioned here...

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/

I see it also changed to 28 days on 13 days off.

[Icarus2001]

can't use jump seats in certain airspace unless duty travel This sounds interesting. Can you give an example?

[danny_chi_1975]

The only way it is any way reasonable is if you can take the housing allowance but not live in in Dubai. So fly out as soon as you fly in from duty. Realistically you are going to have to allow for some hotel nights in Dubai. There was mention somewhere that the company were going to supply hotel in Dubai but I cannot see them doing that and paying AED11,000 a month allowance. It certainly is not mentioned here...

Emirates Group Careers | Pilots (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/)

I see it also changed to 28 days on 13 days off.

FCN 2017-022 page 5. Housing allowance is for your family at your home country. You do get hotel in Dubai during 28 days working pattern.

[Icarus2001]

Thanks Danny, strange that they do not put that in the advert as it makes it (slightly) more attractive.

[SK1]

FCN 2017-022 page 5. Housing allowance is for your family at your home country. You do get hotel in Dubai during 28 days working pattern.

I can't see that written on the advert. The way I read it, it's housing allowance OR company provided accommodation (hotel?).

What may be of interest to some is that the education allowance seems to have changed from only being available for Dubai based schools to Global.

[harry the cod]

It's Company provided accommodation available 24/7, OR, opt out and take a reduced monthly accommodation allowance but also have hotac provided during your time back in Dubai. Basically, on your month working, you'll be in a hotel somewhere in the World, including Dubai. On your 13 days off, what you do and where you live is up to you. The Company is giving you money to take that that responsibility off their hands. This latter option is the one that the commuting guys will go for.

As for the education allowance, this change in policy is now why it's oversubscribed!

Harry

[danny_chi_1975]

I can't see that written on the advert. The way I read it, it's housing allowance OR company provided accommodation (hotel?).

On revised condition, now you can choice to stay in company villa or apartment( company accommodation). If you choice not to stay in company accommodation, you can take allowance + hotel room while you stay in Dubai during 28 days pattern

[glofish]

Oversubscribed?

Does not surprise me.

After all there were still hundreds of EK employees joining Exential despite all the warnings, remember? The heat seems to get to everyone around here ....

Bear with me for the rants telling about the many hours of DH back to DXB on the very same freighter after a already long duty (sometimes in the bunk, sometimes on the comfy chair, next to the loadmaster or horse whisperer, standard food, no entertainment ....). After all it's cheaper than hotel rooms.

They may be paid, but do not count towards the max hours, be they daily, weekly, monthly or yearly.
You'll end up with as many hours as a full contractor, but "only" 500 at stick, as per freighter contract!

I might be wrong though, but ......

[felixthecat]

Psychology 101..... Make a rubbish offer and follow it up with something slightly less rubbish. Few if any will accept the first offer but the second will be much more successful than had it been offered in the first place.

[harry the cod]

SS

Don't shoot the messenger! Think it was almost 50% oversubscribed in the end. They actually need around 320-330 pilots to crew the operation but are taking only a third of that as a dedicated crew and the rest will be from the passenger fleet as and when.

Despite how some feel towards the deal, it obviously works for others.

Harry

[Icarus2001]

If the 28/13 freight job is so "oversubscribed" then why is it still on the careers website?

[YendorB]

Hi all
I'm just after some information on the commuting side of things.
I realise you have to do this at your own expense so I'm trying to do the maths.

How is this staff travel?
Is it a space available system?
Can I confirm tickets?
Can I Confirm a business class ticket?
How much does it cost to fly from Perth to Dubai and vice versa on staff travel?

Thanks

[virga 208]

Hey guys,

This thread faded away almost a year ago any news lately?? that would be appreciated.

[gtaflyer]

I guess if you on c scale you will never get the A scale.career end cul-de-sac.

[Emma Royds]

I believe there are some relatively unhappy guys on the freighter now having to do night turnarounds in between there normal cargo flights.
On the bright side they still get the extended time off to go home every month!
(BTW thanks guys for helping us out, much appreciate the odd night turnaround being taken by you guys!)

I am not on the freighter contract but it is not in any of our interests to have colleagues on the freighter being unhappy and who have effectively moved back home. It will probably take significantly far less EK generated nonsense to push such individuals to the point of resigning. Less people remaining on the line benefits none of us who remain.

[SOPS]

What did the did the guys taking the freight "contract" think would happen? Nothing EK puts on paper means a thing. So, I am assumimg they are now flying pax flights in between their freighter flights? I bet this was not what was on offer in the original gig?

[virga 208]

I'm taking the temperature to decide whether to join or not.. I'm not a fan of these night short hopps however i don't mind helping the folks from time to time.

Q1: Are the hourly rates the same for cargo and pax?
Q2: How often are these flights?

Cheers.

[felixthecat]

The salary and benefits are significantly less on the freighter fleet than the pax fleet. Have a look on the EK recruitment website for the full picture Virga.

[virga 208]

I went through the website and attended the roadshow i'm quite happy with the big picture since someone brought up the mix ops pax cargo i just wanna dig deeper.

[JAYTO]

As long as you are aware the roadshow "big picture" will be significantly different to reality.

Bait and switch is an art form here.

you have been warned.

J

[Wizofoz]

I went through the website and attended the roadshow i'm quite happy with the big picture since someone brought up the mix ops pax cargo i just wanna dig deeper.

Yep. Work out how many hours you could possibly do in 28 days on, 13 off- and you'll do them.

[felixthecat]

If you're on the freighter fleet you get paid the freighter salary, freighter flight pay etc etc. If you get called for a passenger flight you still get paid as if on the freighter.