VFR in France

[GRP]

Struggling to work out how the french charts work.... The 1:500000 charts (IGN) have a warning on them saying that they are only for use for flights below 5000 feet. The 1:1000000 charts (SIA) show airspace from SFC-FL195. On there there are airways coming as low as FL45. On the IGN chart where there is an airway down to FL45 there is nothing marked on the chart. This is probably academic but that seems to mean I can be bumbling along with my IGN chart at 5000 feet and go straight through an airway. Admittedly there are not many airways on the chart that start at that level, but the fact there is more than one yet they are not mentioned on charts covering SFC-5000 has me wondering. Maybe I have misunderstood something here!
Can anybody explain?

I came back VFR from Geneva to Goodwood today and at various points we were told by ATC that the maximum flight level we could fly at was FL85. I can't see where on any charts I am supposed to know this! From what I understood french class A starts at FL115 unless otherwise indicated, so what is to stop me flying on an airway (Class E) at FL95 or FL105? Several controllers when told we were at FL85 today informed us that that was as high as we could go. Why could I not go to FL105, apart from the fact that we did not have oxygen... but they didn't know that.

Today was my first cross-country flight across the french interior and I have been poring over these charts this evening trying to work out how I am supposed to know these things!

Any help greatly appreciated!

GRP

[Keef]

The basic problem is that the IGN half-mill charts only go to 5000 feet MSL/2000 AGL (whichever is higher).

So if you're at FL85 you're off the top of your chart.

Without knowing where you were, it's hard to say what was above you at FL85.

There is quite a bit of Class D spotted about the Paris area (outside the Class A). If the base of that is over 5000 feet, your chart wouldn't show it. The controllers might clear you into it up to FL85 but not want you any higher. End of argument!

I had a browse of the airways charts for Geneva to Paris to UK and couldn't see any airways below FL60 - not that I can be sure I didn't miss any.

BUT the IGN chart legend tells you that airways whose lower limit is below FL65 are not shown. Being Class E, they aren't quite as restrictive as UK airways!

So the charts "do what it says on the tin".

[nonradio]

Why on earth would you want to fly above 1500' over such beautiful country, in the first place?:D

just kidding, honest...

[GRP]

Re: The IGN charts. That was the question really. They tell you they are only for flight below 5000 and do not show the airways that come below FL65, so if there is an airway at FL45 and you are using the IGN chart then there are a few (admittedly only a few) places where you could be crossing these lower airways without knowing it. It just seemed strange to me that the IGN charts show airspace up to 5000 feet but *NOT* those lowest airways which come below that!

The reason I came across this was that I was having a look to see why we were being told that FL85 was the highest FL we could use. I can't see why FL105 would not be available by looking at the 1:1000000 chart which shows airspace up to FL195. I didn't want to go any higher.... just confused as to why we were told on more than one occasion that FL85 was the maximum FL when there seemed to be nothing on the chart saying so!

Good point though about why we would want to fly that high! I was with somebody else who was technically P1 for the flight although I was flying most of it. If I was on my own I would be considerably lower!!

To clarify something for me here.... if for some reason I am flying above 5000 feet in France should I always at that point be flying along one of the airways marked on the 1:1000000 charts? We were doing so yesterday apart from the very first leg (PAS-ATN) where we sort of wiggled our way past the mountains and then got on track talking to Reims Info who were happy for us to fly to FL65.

I plan to do this trip on my own next month and am trying to make sure I fully understand the system!!

[GRP]

By the way.... for somebody based in the UK it's quite an interesting sight to look out of the side window and see trees and rocks above you!

[QDMQDMQDM]

GRP,

Can I ask your route? If all goes well, I may be doing a similar trip next month too and I'm also a first-timer.

QDM

[GRP]

I only did the return trip... the aeroplane came over with sn instructor IFR so I only did the return.

We came back PAS-ATN-NEV-CDN-LGL-DVL-GWC.

Takes a while from Geneva to get on track thanks to having to climb around the mountains that go up to 5500 feet in that direction - wouldn't fancy heading south east from there!!

I really enjoyed the trip. I'm going back next month and am quite happy to do the trip solo now (or at least with non-pilot passengers)

We kept in touch with ATC all the way back and they were happy to keep clearing us through the various zones you go through. It went quite well. Most zones seemed to just clear you to carry on as you were and then call you back before you leave them to wish you a good day and send you on your way.

3 hours 50 flight time including 10 minutes going round in circles at DVL wondering whether to cross the channel a bit lower or skirt around some cloud. As it turned out the cloud over the french coast stopped as soon as we crossed the coastline.

Great fun anyway!

[sickBocks]

The Young Pilots' Tour of France kicks off next week.

This is a nav competition around France with about 50 people between 18 and 23 years-old.

For more information on how our [the UK] entrant is progressing go here:

http://www.fna.asso.fr/fna/actua/MANIFEST/Tdfdirect/tdf2002/index.htm

Great opportunity if you can get it.

sB :cool: