Military Record

[Herod]

About a year ago, someone on this forum discussed getting hold of his military records. I'd like to get hold of mine, even if only for the "geld or destroy" comment on the 1369. Can anyone offer advice on how to go about it?

[Lordflasheart]

This should do you nicely Sir. Fits all services until the postal address, but I'm not sure if you allowed to make alterations yourself, only the station tailor .....

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-your-own-records

LFH

[MPN11]

Oh, dear! Am I tempted? A career's-worth of F1369, to try and see where it went wrong? (I know where, actually).

A VERY naughty fellow JO showed me one of mine after it had been completed by the AOC. Interesting :)

(Oh, buggrit, form completed. I shall see what they really thought of me :))

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't really want to know. Had some good bosses that showed me. Others that gave full and frank debriefs. One of my last was brilliant - not me - but when I told the RO.

A spec aircrew sqn ldr had drafted a report for the real sqn ldr. The following year the new sqn ldr gave me a debrief. When he finished I said, what a coincidence, that is identical to what A^ B^^^^^^^^n said last year. His face was a picture.

[cyclic35]

Oh, dear! Am I tempted? A career's-worth of F1369, to try and see where it went wrong? (I know where, actually).

A VERY naughty fellow JO showed me one of mine after it had been completed by the AOC. Interesting :)

(Oh, buggrit, form completed. I shall see what they really thought of me :))

Mine must have self-combusted some time ago.:bored:

[MPN11]

My interest lies mainly in the 'later years', when I had a succession of bosses who were not 'people people'. I knew statistically I wasn't going any further in my Branch (very narrow pyramid, we all knew each other and everyone's chances).

Just curious to discover if any of them actually had a clue who I was. The Scottish Air Cdre (as he was then) tried to get my former DD to give me a task, and had to be reminded that I had left the Directorate (with the D's specific permission, to take up another post) a few weeks earlier :)

Many giggles over the years, though. As a 2 year flt lt, I put "MoD" as my first choice of posting. My sqn ldr Boss observed "There aren't any flt lt posts at MoD". "Exactly, Sir :)" After further banter, he gave me a draft 1369 and 48 hours to return it filled out as if I was 1st RO! Two and a bit years later ... BINGO :) The next step was bloody slow, though!!

[Herod]

Thank you, Lordflashheart. Like the others, I'm not sure whether I want to know, but since I left 40 years ago, what have I got to lose? (a bit of self-respect I suppose)

[MPN11]

Thank you, Lordflashheart. Like the others, I'm not sure whether I want to know, but since I left 40 years ago, what have I got to lose? (a bit of self-respect I suppose)

Or, perhaps, "See yourself as others see you"?

I promise to report back on the emotional experience ;)

We are both too late to change, though. :)

[charliegolf]

I did this a couple of years back (airman aircrew). There was plenty missing- not least a damning annual (can't remember the1369 equivalent) that another officer showed me briefly before my exit. That bloke didn't like me, that's for sure. Another omission was ground instructor stuff- I was an A1 GIT, but nothing. I had one medical issue the whole time, a bad knee on the ITC- you should see the pages that generated- blimey! Enjoyed the trip down mem lane tho'.

CG

[Wander00]

I got mine at the turn of the year - everything from my Headmaster's recommendation for an RAF Scholarship, Outward Bound School report to my final F 1369, for 2 careers, all that was missing was my 5000 Series. Interesting to see who lied to you at the debrief, sometimes for good, sometimes for ill, and what could be written by those who did not even know you. Most interesting line, about the first Mrs W by my flight commander, "I have not met his wife". And that was the first career of 3 she had a go at wrecking......

[Pontius Navigator]

My RO advisor got his records which included all the reports of his abortive nav training. What surprised him was that it also included some of my training reports. I guess when we flew as Nav 1/2 the course commander may have put one report in each docket as we could have helped/hindered the other, especially on unscreened trips

[99 Change Hands]

Is there a catch-all phrase to put in Part 3 to get the lot, rather than specifying types of record and dates?

Quite fancy reading some of my early stuff, like OC Nav School describing me as "garrulous and overly-familiar when drunk" which my boss showed me rather later in my career.

[downsizer]

Great stuff, all billed to the cash strapped MoD. Keep it up! :\

[Pontius Navigator]

99, was that still at the time with boxes Drinks Regularly and Unwisely etc?

[Rosevidney1]

Surely there must be some trepidation in this venture. How about finding out if it was YOU that got the immortal report "Keeping this young officer in the service is depriving a perfectly good village of its idiot"!

[lasernigel]

Tempted but would not like to see all the paperwork generated, when I gave my ASM a good pasting for having sex with my now ex wife. I was only a Sgt and got away somehow of not getting a Court Martial.

[Rigga]

I got mine a few years ago and on the very top - the very last piece of paper on the pile, of 24 years' records, was an offer of Promotion (that I didn't get) if I withdrew my PVR!
...and a full record of why I PVR'd lay behind it.

[Basil]

Not sure I'd really want to see mine.
Once, whilst still in training, thought my assessments not very good so, as key orderly, opened the filing cabinet and pulled out another student's at random - bally heck, it was even worse!

Ah, yes, the old: 'I cannot imagine anyone following this officer other than from a mild sense of curiosity.'

We had peer reporting in a well known airline and some people took it very badly.

[Pontius Navigator]

Well, apart from myself, I know who shafted my career at particular points. One, which I think is the classic, is the 'new' sqn cdr when you have been on the sqn for two years.

I had been doing the sqn adjt job for two years (rather than the 6 months secondary duty). I was approaching tourex and suggested to the new CO, whom I had thought was human) that I might step down and allow someone else to carry on and I would be available if need be. I was accused of gross disloyalty.

Please to note that that CO was 1021'd in his next appointment.

[MPN11]

Does anyone have an indication of how long this process takes? I'm assuming 30 years of F1369 isn't going to be instantaneous, of course, unless they have a batch-file printing system set up.

[charliegolf]

Forty working days seems to ring a bell.

[Basil]

PN, Great when someone gets their just desserts - just so long as I never do ;)

My first civil boss used to accuse me of LMF if I ran late - I THINK he was joking . . .

[MPN11]

Forty working days seems to ring a bell.

Grateful for that :ok:

I apologise silently for adding to their workload, but then they shouldn't have offered :p

PS: Why don't they offer to email .pdf files? Or perhaps they will, as they wanted my email address. It would save me having to scan 1.63 kg of A4 :)

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, when you make an FOI request I believe you can specify the format you would prefer. I think it might apply to Subject Access Requests.

[MPN11]

MPN, when you make an FOI request I believe you can specify the format you would prefer. I think it might apply to Subject Access Requests.
Damn ... didn't see that on the form, and failed to ask specifically. Too late now, Form in the post, but I might send a follow-up letter.

I promise to post suitable extracts ;)

[ricardian]

Never had an "annual report" as an LAC, SAC or Cpl 1959-73. Just a number from 1 to 9 in 3 categories and a "fitted/not fitted for promotion" recommendation. I did have an "interview" one flight commander when I was in the commcen at Akrotiri, he was concerned that I was not playing a full role in the station's social life (the station strength was about 12,000 at this time). He was suitably subdued after I diplomatically pointed out that over the previous 2 years I'd been a committee member then Secretary, Treasurer and finally Chairman of the Corporal's Club.

[Basil]

he was concerned that I was not playing a full role in the station's social life
ricardian, now if you'd been seen getting plastered in the bar every night he could hardly have leveled that accusation.
Although, to be honest, I doubt it enhanced my reputation with the boss. :E

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Anyone know what the Army form number was for an Army Confidential/Annual report from 1974 to 1990 ? It's probably changed by now, like most things.

I'll just ask for "medical records" for my entire service but I guess they'll want the form number for Confidentials.

NEO

[Pontius Navigator]

NEO, no, just make a subject access request for all records.

On a different tack, I suppose you could ask while in the Service and even seek redress though I suspect too much time has lapsed since confidentiality was removed.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I hope you not as disappointed as I was when I received my 'docs' from Cranwell.

Mine consisted of one and a half sides of foolscap with list of all the postings and promotions covering 24 years. - That was it !!


Aaron.

[Pontius Navigator]

Aaron, you possibly got what you asked for. I got that Record of Service and it only covered from computerization, but that is all I asked for. There were discrepancies between that and my log book and I had it amended.

[Army Mover]

Anyone know what the Army form number was for an Army Confidential/Annual report from 1974 to 1990 ? It's probably changed by now, like most things.

I'll just ask for "medical records" for my entire service but I guess they'll want the form number for Confidentials.

NEO

AFB2048 was the Annual Confidential Report; they also had an AFB2066, which was a booklet that followed you around in your documents folder.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Thanks Army Mover.

NEO

[Coltishall. loved it]

Just send mine off "asked for all they have on me in the 23 years?"
Either artic inbound or one piece of A4. Probably the latter.
Guess they may be getting busy up there?

[unclenelli]

Speak to SPVA at Kentigern House, Glasgow to get forms (x2 = 1 for request, 1 for consent)
I got my Grandfathers records, unfortunately not in time for Xmas 2011!
Got a framed montage of him = Grandad's Wedding Photo, Dad & Uncle, RE Emblems, Grandad in Italy 1944, Mounted Medals for my Dad's Xmas Pres 2011 & delayed Service Record

All I got by Xmas (about 6mths delay) was a bulky envelope saying:
"We are experiencing a high demand in requests, you can have your non-refundable fee back, or await our response, which could be 9-12 months"
I "awaited" and got the response in ~Mar/Apr/May 2012, contact ...........for RAF/RN/Army/RM/etc (eventually arrived ready for Dad's Birthday in June 12)

Needs 1st surviving NoK to sign for request, & Death Cert (£10) for individual (if not you!)



.....and it arrives on ****ty brown recycled photocopied paper!!!!!!!!!

[MPN11]

A career's worth of F1369 just delivered ... in 17 days.

Now for the uncomfortable bit: reading what they really thought of me!

[brakedwell]

Water under the bridge, don't want to know :eek:

[MPN11]

OK, that has been a VERY interesting read. It revealed things I knew, and things I didn't know, and things about some people reporting on me that surprised me.


I was a bit of an immature prat as a plt off/fg off. OK, I knew that, but they accepted I was good at my job.
Identified as ambitious. Is that a bad thing? ;)
I matured rather later than I thought. Oh, well, I think I've almost got there now.
I annoyed people more than I realised, by being intolerant and over-assertive in the earlier years. Ooops. :uhoh:
A couple of 1st ROs that I though would have slagged me off were actually quite complimentary.
Air Officers as 2nd or 3rd ROs [and even 4th] provide an interesting filter to what had been said previously!
On my last MoD tour, the late Lord Garden noticed I had lost interest ... but never enquired why. I told him at my [brief] farewell interview when he was ACAS.
On that same tour, the Scottish One Star lied, and did NOT debrief me on my shortcomings. :)
All in all, quite enlightening from a self-analysis POV. A summation of 29 years. O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us! RAF Disclosures did that for me :)

I think I'm glad I did it, and some ROs have actually risen in my estimation. I just wish that they had been more detailed, and constructive, in some of their debriefs instead of just putting it down on paper.

A bit late to change now!!

[MPN11]

Who's next? :)

[alemaobaiano]

I received mine a few years ago when I was asking for information that would enable me to show qualification equivalency. In addition to the information that I actually needed they sent me the full package. It was an interesting read, but didn't really show anything that I didn't already know.

From a point of view much lower down the food chain:


I was an immature pillock as a 19 year old JT in Belize. No complaints from me on that score.

I was routinely praised for efficiency and equally routinely criticized for not letting everyone know that I had been efficient. Apparently making a noise about doing my job was expected.

Working away from my trade stream had a negative effect on my promotion prospects. Essentially there was only me and no-one had any point of reference. As a result my numbers were average despite the write-ups being extremely positive.

My final write-up was fascinating, but by that point irrelevant. The RO commented on the tardiness of my promotions and the difficulties that previous ROs had faced in effectively assessing my performance against my peers and, in his opinion, the lack of effort made to retain "a highly experienced and qualified SNCO". While I appreciated the sentiment it made little practical difference.

Personally I thoroughly enjoyed my time away from the mainstream and don't for a moment regret the choices I made. The experiences that I had set me up for a very successful and varied post RAF career, in several industries and quite a few different countries.

I thought that it was an interesting read and overall a fairly accurate reflection of who I was, and continue to be. I disagree with one or two observations, but IMHO, the system seemed to work within certain limitations.

TTFN

[MPN11]

I was routinely praised for efficiency and equally routinely criticized for not letting everyone know that I had been efficient. Apparently making a noise about doing my job was expected.
I had the exact opposite ... constant criticism for self-promotion, however well-justified :D

[Pontius Navigator]

Alemaobaiano, the son of a friend of ours is in the Rifles but has served as a Cpl but out of battalion. To get promotion he needs endorsement by the Bn CO. The CO does not know him and would prefer men who will serve with him.

[alemaobaiano]

Alemaobaiano, the son of a friend of ours is in the Rifles but has served as a Cpl but out of battalion. To get promotion he needs endorsement by the Bn CO. The CO does not know him and would prefer men who will serve with him.

That has a familiar ring to it, nobody really understands the orphan ;)

To be fair, I was fully aware of the repercussions when I went off on my first tour with the RAF Regiment. For my personal development it was a great experience and I learned a lot that paid off in later life. It was another 12 years before I put on a blue suit again, so there is only one person to "blame" :O

I do think the services could look at some way of balancing the scales, attached personnel are essential for many units and the prospect of missing out on promotion could be keeping good people away from some very interesting postings.

TTFN

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder if those that had both confidential reports and open reports noticed a difference. And from early confidential reports (1960s) to later more enlightened times when it was often read out to you as you were not allowed to read it?

Did you find where some ROs had lied and others, who you did not know, acted as 2 and 3RO?

Not military but Mrs PN was once described as 'reasonably' honest or possibly 'usually'. With honesty you either are or are not honest. So how many had carefully chosen adjectives that negated the plus point that succeeded it. 'Always 5 minutes late' - no argument. 'Usually a good time keeper' - from time to time fails to turn up.

[Haraka]

PN. Damming with faint praise. Like " He has done everything asked of him". In my case many years ago from a Wing Commander who was noticeably absent whenever decisions had to be made.

[Pontius Navigator]

Haraka, quite, which is why I would have liked the opportunity for upward reporting, both on your RO and on the guy preceding in your job. You know the type, walked on water, brilliant, promoted out of the job. You open the cupboard and get buried in trivia etc.

[alemaobaiano]

PN, in my early days (mid 70s) it was made very plain to us that disputing anything in the narrative or numbers would lead to a few one way interviews in best blues.

Ten years later everything was much more relaxed and comments were allowed, and IIRC, were even entered into the official record.

By the time I left in the 90s there wasn't much difference between the RAF process and performance reviews in industry that I was subject to.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

PN & alemaobaiano,

I'm ex Army but we share similar experiences. Finally got my paperwork, the Annuals later on were a combination of the "orphan syndrome" (I trained as a pilot mid career but wasn't AAC) and plenty of comments written by officers who had never met me but felt able to pass judgement.

27 years after I left I'm in touch with a former OC by accident who was, to use the plum stones in the cheeks vernacular, a total nincompoop. He couldn't manage men, fly safely under combat conditions or even dress properly. But he's made a success of the security advisory business in East Africa. Maybe he learned late........

Water under the bridge I guess; too late to change anything and I didn't do too badly afterwards.

NEO

[Pontius Navigator]

NEO, on 'never met me' I have had reports where the 1RO drafted the 2RO report. I have written 1,2 and 3 RO for one person. They didn't complain - they got promoted.

How many RO talk with the subject? Do they ever ask what you did in the year, especially no drama success early in the year.

[taxydual]

Many years ago (late '70's) at an airfield near Wallingford, it was Airmens Annual Confidential Reporting time. The F6442.

Griff, our hero, had had a good year and was quietly confident of a good outcome.

Eventually, it was his turn to be summoned into the presence of WO Eng to hear the good news.

Without being invited to sit, Griff was astounded to be vilified by the WO debriefing him on his tardiness, sloppy appearance and poor performance of his duties.

Griff, stunned at this, could only stand there with mouth agape.

Eventually, the WO finished and said "Now get out and send Griffiths in".

"But I am Griffiths" was Griff's response.


To this day, Griff has no idea whose F6442 he was debriefed on.

[ian16th]

Water under the bridge I guess; too late to change anything and I didn't do too badly afterwards.
NEO

This is why I haven't bothered asking.

What was said about me then, doesn't matter now.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, it would confirm sh1ts were sh1ts, good guys were sh1ts, sh1ts were actually good, and good were good.

I know who most of these were. My very first sqn cdr broke all the rules. "Here is your 5000 series, go away and read it."

[MPN11]

PN, your #46. I long held the view that 'upward reporting' in some form would be a good thing. I saw it as perhaps being mainly of use as a 'tie-breaker' on promotion boards, which might help prevent the 'self-promoting bone idle brown-nosing barsteard' from slipping through the net ;)

[ian16th]

PN

In my brevity, I maybe lost the clarity.

What I failed to amplify was the I didn't do too badly afterwards part.

[Pontius Navigator]

"That's strange, MPW said his ROs said they couldn't recognise an exit with the hangar doors wide open, but they said he was the most astute planner and brilliant officer. Better be safe, don't promote him.".

:)

[OldAgeandTreachery]

Sent off for my records after reading this thread.Got an e mail about seven days later asking me to clarify my request for my medical records. I await expectantly.It's the early years, 72 to 80, I'm most interested in. Most of it was spent in an alkifrolic haze!
With ref to 6442s etc: Wasn't there a saying back then something like:- There are two types of airmen in the RAF:Those who play golf and those who DON'T get promoted.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Glad I sent for them, after all it's a free service (under the FOI legislation I guess) and it was almost cathartic after all this time to remember some of the idiots that got a commission in those days. Hopefully the "old school tie" and Daddy's money/position don't mean quite as much now as they did then.

NEO

[reynoldsno1]

I got a large package today - it gave me a good chuckle. Most of it was fair enough, though a number of 2 RO & 3 RO disagreed with the 1 RO (too generous). Professional ability (i.e. flying duties) seemed to count for little.

Consistent Cons: scruffy, short (lack of military bearing), scruffy, unconventional, lazy (unless challenged), scruffy, artistic bent (:hmm:), short & scruffy
Consistent Pros: professional, crew loyalty, determined (when challenged), tactical flair & imagination

I was well looked after following 2 RTA's and a rugby injury. Probably not surprising I took a PVR.

[Pontius Navigator]

I had an unsuited to RAF life. I got Spec Aircrew two years later and served another 20 years.

[VinRouge]

Data access is not FOI, but instead Data Protection Act. What you are required to fill in is a subject access request.

You can use it whilst serving too to dig up any information held by the organisation on the individual, whether that is official reporting or not.

Oh, it's an offence to destroy reporting (official or unofficial) on an individual. The law states that it belongs to the individual and not the organisation.

Applies to any organisation, not just MOD.

[Ogre]

The year I PVR'd was the year the airman assessments changed from being rated in a scale of 1 to 9 to being rated on a score of 1 to 6. Th official reason was that anyone getting a score of 1 to 3 really had no point still being in uniform, but as I quipped to my Chief during the interview "This new system means you just have a role a dice to see what you're giving us..."

His wry smile indicated either this was a bad attempt at humour or too close to the truth...

[NRU74]

A sincere thanks here to Herod, who started this thread, and Lordflasheart for the link.
I recently received a huge package including stuff from my initial visit to Hornchurch back in 1960 through to the time when I left the service of a grateful nation some twenty odd years or so later.
I have to concede that many of the assessments were ( with hindsight) absolutely bang on.
A good read before I put the whole lot through the shredder.....after emailing my thanks to the people at Cranwell who've had to photocopy such a huge amount of stuff gratis (to me)
NRU74

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

A sincere thanks here to Herod, who started this thread, and Lordflasheart for the link.
NRU74

Me too. 15 years after you but still enlightening and insightful to read. My shredder was gasping for breath !

NEO

[Bladdered]

I had all my records nicked from Innsworth - someone had it all on an unencrypted dongle along with thousands of other records. Its all right though, Sir Simon said it was fine and I shouldn't worry. Still have his letter just in case though. Anyway, whoever has my complete service record is welcome to it - perhaps a film?

[Herod]

Thanks for bringing it up again guys. Since I started it I've been through a divorce and two (yes two) house moves, so it got put on the back-burner. It was sent today, and I'll post anything printable when it returns.

[99 Change Hands]

I got my 2.5kg of ex-forest recently too. I was surprised to find myself getting quite upset with some of the reporting. The consistent thread was people being impressed with me on first contact and assuming I was a genius. Then they would slag me off as over-confident and lazy when I didn't reach their expected standard. I feel truly grateful that no-one ever spotted that I was actually completely out of my depth and only clinging on by my fingernails.

I knew that 'garrulous and over-familiar when drunk' was in there somewhere and even found it twice! Consistency personified. :)

[MPN11]

A sincere thanks here to Herod, who started this thread, and Lordflasheart for the link.
I recently received a huge package including stuff from my initial visit to Hornchurch back in 1960 through to the time when I left the service of a grateful nation some twenty odd years or so later. ...I never thought of asking for my Hornchurch and Biggin assessments, nor any of my RN reports at BRNC.

More trees, please ... requests incoming!

[downsizer]

Good, good, let's waste more of the MoDs limited budget.

[hunterboy]

Isn't development feedback to be welcomed?

[Pontius Navigator]

Downsizer, at the moment it is probably idle interest, only a matter of time before someone finds an adverse comment and goes to court, then the big bucks will tot up.

[downsizer]

Downsizer, at the moment it is probably idle interest, only a matter of time before someone finds an adverse comment and goes to court, then the big bucks will tot up.

Idle interest adds up. People are paid to deal with every single FOI request. Just saying....

[Willard Whyte]

The year I PVR'd was the year the airman assessments changed from being rated in a scale of 1 to 9 to being rated on a score of 1 to 6. Th official reason was that anyone getting a score of 1 to 3 really had no point still being in uniform, but as I quipped to my Chief during the interview "This new system means you just have a role a dice to see what you're giving us..."

His wry smile indicated either this was a bad attempt at humour or too close to the truth...

Perhaps 9-sided dice got too expensive.

http://www.mathartfun.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/IMd9.jpg

$2.50, if you were wondering.

[Willard Whyte]

I had the exact opposite ... constant criticism for self-promotion, however well-justified :D

I once commented to my flight commander during one particularly, err, 'ill-tempered' OJAR chat that he was only intereted in giving people a good write-up if they strode around the squadron with a clipboard, and sent pointless emails to all and sundry at 16:59 every day.

[OldnDaft]

Idle interest adds up. People are paid to deal with every single FOI request. Just saying....

Personnel are entitled to receive a copy of everything held on them - it's the law, regardless of cost. Some of the reports written when it was a closed reporting system were awful, equally some of the information and comments on the old dossiers simply would not stand up to scrutiny.

[Pontius Navigator]

OD, my point, if someone chose to challenge their historic reports.

I suspect I had bad reports from some wg cdrs, at least I had some satisfaction when one was 1020d and some explanation when one died from a brain tumour. Another gave me a bollocking when I arrived; his career came to a grinding halt at the end of his tour. I only had a couple who I could not get on with but beware the smiling knife.

[OldnDaft]

PN, agreed on the complaint point. The policy at (the then) PMA of "weeding" dossiers and asking the respective Deskie/Drafter what could be released to the individual has thankfully stopped but how much was destroyed? The move to e-dossiers was a positive step, albeit forced by the move to H Wyc and the lack of space for a dossier storage machine allied to the implementation of JPA. I would urge anyone to request a full copy of their documents and a copy of the open door notes from OCMIS/PACMIS.

[keith williams]

I am surprised that so many people are going to the trouble (and for the MOD the expence) of getting their reports, then shredding them. Would it not be better to keep them, so that future generations could read them. It would enable our descendents to get a much better picture of who we were and what we experienced. I would love to be able to read the reports on my long-dead forefathers, particular those who were killed in action.

During the leaving interview at the end of one appointment (posting) the Captain said, I sent your report back to the Commander and told him to rewrite it....absolutely outrageous! He did not actually tell me what the problem had been. The joining interview in my next appointment was effectively a bollocking from the Commodore. Again without going into detail. I never did find out what it had all been about.

The Commander and Commodore achieved no further promotion.....but I did. Wott me worry?

[MPN11]

I am surprised that so many people are going to the trouble (and for the MOD the expence) of getting their reports, then shredding them. Would it not be better to keep them, so that future generations could read them. It would enable our descendents to get a much better picture of who we were and what we experienced. ...

Exactly my reason ... for my son and grandson to read [and occasionally enjoy] after I've gone.

During the leaving interview at the end of one appointment (posting) the Captain said, I sent your report back to the Commander and told him to rewrite it....absolutely outrageous! He did not actually tell me what the problem had been. The joining interview in my next appointment was effectively a bollocking from the Commodore. Again without going into detail. I never did find out what it had all been about.Having had to compile a few RN Officers' Reports in the past, I was always struck by how little space was provided to actually say anything. Brevity to point of 'running up a couple of signal flags' :D

[Pontius Navigator]

OD, to what end?

Interestingly my Retired Officer representative had applied for his. He had an interesting career until he descended to a level of competence before reaching wg CDR, he should have gone higher. Anyway he said his nav training records were very illuminating including reports on his fellow students including me. I had the task of assisting as 2nd nav on his chop ride.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, I eventually had to get to grips with civil service reports. I was staggered to be given a 10 page document to report on my typist. She was brilliant and typed well above the maximum expected rate. She didn't want promotion just to be left in peace.

Later I mooted the idea that reports should be at the request of the individual with certain caveats.

If you had a career and wanted supporting reports
If your assignment was coming to an end so your poster could match to jobs
If your boss thought a report - good or bad - should be raised.

There was a story, many years ago when the Air Sec was in Adastral House, that a particular CS would file awkward files behind cabinets, under the carpet, or hidden somewhere when he didn't know what to do. Subjected often remainder in post for years undisturbed with the turbulence.

[Willard Whyte]

I am surprised that so many people are going to the trouble (and for the MOD the expence) of getting their reports, then shredding them. Would it not be better to keep them, so that future generations could read them. It would enable our descendents to get a much better picture of who we were and what we experienced.

Unfortunately it would be a case of what other people thought we were!

[kintyred]

Unfortunately it would be a case of what other people thought we were!

Lord, would somebody the giftie gie us
To see oursel's as others see us

Not often you can say you've received a gift from the MOD!

[wiggy]

it's the law, regardless of cost. Some of the reports written when it was a closed reporting system were awful,

Yup, it's water under the bridge for me, and I was a "square peg" etc, but FWIW the same year I ran the London marathon in under 3 hrs 30 I was written up as as barely fit or something suitably derogatory for physical fitness. When I belatedly found out and had the cheek to question both the first and second RO I was told that since it was done on my own time, off "company" property and wasn't a team sport the running didn't count.

I left 2 years later......TBF I guess both myself and the RAF won.....I sneaked a look at a few reports before I left I have no wish to go there again.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wiggy, the other problem with an annual report is that many RO don't remember more than a couple of months unless you pissed them off. Some don't even know you.

[Herod]

I've requested mine in pdf format, so we'll see if they save trees or not.

[spectre150]

I vaguely recall that there was a short-lived Officers Confidential Reporting system between the F1369 and OJAR. F6500 (?) or similar I think. Anyway, Spectre 150 was working in a busy staff job for a 1RO who was destined for, and achieved, VSO status. The new reporting system was based on a new numbering system which the 1RO rigorously applied - unfortunately not in my favour. The list of low numbers looked very stark but I had little time to suck my teeth and protest as the 1RO was posted and walking out of the door on a Friday afternoon. But I had faith in the system, the 2RO was there to provide an element of 'checks and balances' and all would be well in the end.

When the 2RO read from his narrative that Spectre 150 'lacked the intellectual rigour to mark him out from his peers' I knew I was doomed. What came as a bigger surprise, and a most welcome one, was when the 3RO Air Officer called me in - he was a fearsome man with a reputation to match - instead of cutting me off at the knees and throwing me out of the HQ as I expected, after asking what I thought of my annual assessment, proceeded to metaphorically tear it up and threw me a lifeline in the form of a 6 month deferral and a new report from my new incoming 1RO.

This was all in the days of open reporting - wonder how it would have panned out in the old closed book system.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spectre, Miss PN experienced something like that. 1st tour, first report, and very weak reports from 1st and 2nd. She had worked very successfully on an oil spill that would have taxed someone far more experienced. She had been directed by the station commander who had good oversight of her job.

One wonders if the two junior RO benefitted on their reports.

Going back to the 50s/60s there was clear evidence of favouritism, especially as the executive cadre was almost exclusively Cranwell which was almost exclusively pilots. There were several cases where the flt lt was promoted to sqn ldr when his sponsor made wg cdr and so on up the greasy pole.

[Willard Whyte]

Lord, would somebody the giftie gie us
To see oursel's as others see us

Not often you can say you've received a gift from the MOD!

I think my family know me better than did some King Cnut I had the displeasure of working 'with'.

[reynoldsno1]

I ran the London marathon in under 3 hrs 30 I was written up as as barely fit or something suitably derogatory for physical fitness
In one year I was reported as "short & slight" and "short & stout" by two different 2ROs. I was 5ft 7in and weighed 9st 12lb throughout the year ...

[keith williams]

I think my family know me better than did some King Cnut I had the displeasure of working 'with'.

But in a hundred years or more all of the existing members of your family will be dead. So unless you or other relativeS maintained detailed diaries, your descendants will know very little about you.

One of my great grandfathers was killed in WW1, A grandfather and his son were killed in WW11, My father was a commando and fought in Malaya in WW11 and is now long dead. I know all of the dates, but with the exception of a few fading photographs, I know nothing about their experiences. Written records would be very precious to me.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Having received the military information I requested two months ago, this morning another envelope arrived from the Army Personnel Centre Disclosures people with a covering letter thanking me for my original correspondence and providing me with a substitute Certificate of Military Service.

Weird; never asked for that, I still have my original red book. They also sent a record of all courses attended including grades/results and all postings with dates.

NEO

[Herod]

Well, it arrived. Very thorough. It even includes photocopies of letters my mother sent from Australia when I was fifteen, asking about qualifications needed etc.

What show up though are how subjective the various reports can be, and how much pressure must have been on superiors to produce something. My reports vary from "excellent, keen, proactive, good flying ability" to "uninteresting, no leadership ability, barely average pilot"

I think I'll keep them, particularly my mother's letters, but they aren't going to affect my life. I left just after my 30th birthday, and I'm 70 now, so water not just under the bridge, but several water-cycles gone.

[radar101]

Going back to the 50s/60s there was clear evidence of favouritism, especially as the executive cadre was almost exclusively Cranwell which was almost exclusively pilots


Not just then. In the late 80s a friend of mine was given Spec Rec by 1 RO, endorsed by 2RO and Stn Cdr (A top bloke).


Got to AOC who downgraded him "As he wasn't aircrew"

[Lordflasheart]

...
Obtaining a Full Service Record

In January 2023 I helped a family obtain the full service record for their recently deceased Fleet Air Arm father, whose 12 year 'short service commission' ran from the 50s to the 60s. His entire service record was provided comprehensively and very promptly by paper photo copies of almost everything, including confidential reports. My resulting comb-bound printed copy was nearly half an inch thick.

In December 2023, I helped a still well alive Fleet Air Arm pilot to apply for his own 30 year service record from early 1950 to the 1980s. The detail supplied electronically was minimal compared to that provided a year earlier and was in part incomprehensible if one is not IT literate, or if one has no access to JPA. Quote - "This Data is taken from the Data Preservation Repository as of 11 Dec 2023. It should be read in conjunction with the Data held on JPA."

There are obvious differences between our two requests - viz -

· The latter bloke is still alive.

· The procedure changed in April 2023 from 'cost you £30' - to 'free'

While I take this up with the relevant offices - does anyone here have any recent experience or views on the subject ?

Q1. Has the 'request a full service record' process changed ?

Q2. Did we fail to ask for what we actually wanted ?

TIA ... LFH