FO / SO authority increase

[Sand Man]

To start the ball rolling:
FO:
Decide if SO should have decision rights below


SO:
Decide rest
Decide if jackets are to be worn
Decide if hats are on or off

[bm330]

Has Flt Ops really run out of anything useful to do that they need to dream up this crap?

[flyhardmo]

What are you guys (can I still say 'guys') on about? Is there a new NTC?

[never ready]

It would seem that management has suddenly realised (yawn) that the pilot pool experience level is severely depleted when considering future commands/upgrades. So now, it appears, they want line Captains to assist in line training the new generation.......by relinquishing Command authority.
"A greater degree of authority" for F/O's and S/O's - really.
This will be fun!

[pill]

All India flights to be crewed by FO/SO?

Be careful what you wish for.

[FlexibleResponse]

While we are at it, how about:

1. Junior staff decide the Directors and Senior Management pay and remuneration?
2. The number and type of new airliners we buy?

[Farman Biplane]

"This is the end of CX being a Captain's airline."..........that's funny! When exactly were we a Captains airline and how did this benefit said Captains? Very senior Captains stuck on the freighter whilst FO upgrades on pax fleet?
Directors airline perhaps?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

This is not a captain's airline anymore than it is an F/O or S/O's airline...

It is a management's airline. They micromanage every last freaking detail of every aspect of the operation.

But sure, let the SO tell me what rest I'll be taking... That'll be fun.

[BlunderBus]

You couldn't make this crap up..How do people not realize they're humiliating themselves so badly? Can they possibly be THAT stupid??
Don't answer that....

[Trafalgar]

This airline has well and truly "jumped the shark". :ooh:

[Sam Ting Wong]

I will graciously allow the S/O to do the outside check in Toronto next winter.

[Trafalgar]

This reminds me of the time they gave the SO's the 'authority' to not make the bunks. That ended well.....

[Natca]

I will graciously allow the S/O to do the outside check in Toronto next winter.

There better be an associated pay raise cause im not doing more for less than whats in my contract. 20k and above.

[Steve the Pirate]

I'm not sure how this can be done differently but traditionally, SOs gained more authority and responsibility when they became FOs and FOs gained more authority and responsibility when they became Captains. I don't mean to be disparaging but what else can SOs and FOs do that they don't already do (apart from perhaps the walkround for SOs, as pointed out by STW)?

STP

[beefy botham]

ISM to 'rock up' at despatch with standby fuel figure.

[Sand Man]

Soon there will be no one for the ISMs to talk to at dispatch. They already decide when to start work, cycling the seat belts don't seem to have any effect these days

[Arfur Dent]

"Management" are so out of touch with the way this Airline works, they probably think they are fine tuning a well oiled machine with this nonsense.
Captains will continue to make decisions in the time-honoured way they always have.

[Farman Biplane]

I have heard that SO/FO will be made "officially responsible" for reading and memorising the NOTAMs. The CN will be responsible for picking up said NOTAMs, choosing one randomly by numeral designator and requiring a word perfect regurgitation of the NOTAM.
Any wrong answers will result in CN getting to choose the rest and delegate any sub-par duties to the SO/FO.
Any correct answers will be suitably punished!
TTW

[The FUB]

sydneyman,

Do you mean the ISFD?

If yes, then no, that's mine.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The red cup is where I draw the line.

[BusyB]

I thought all the water on the aircraft was portable as you carry it everywhere you go?
Guess it must be potable but it would be good to test it to ensure its safe to drink!!

[Oasis]

Suggestions:

- talk on the bus is for PF
- pa's for PF sectors
- Captain takes the fat one.

[LongTimeInCX]

cycling the seat belts don't seem to have any effect these days
I find that if they fail to notice that I've cycled the seat belts, as their little butts remain glued to their cabin crew seats, that switching the seat belt sign to auto, thereby allowing the pax to make a dash for the bathroom, normally dissolves the glue on their butts and they rapidly spring into life. :E

[Avinthenews]

The ISM releases the cabin crew, not the cockpit crew.

[Toruk Macto]

Properly functioning airlines , captains naturally pass on knowledge and asses F/O's capability then allow the F/O to challenge himself . Not sure what's going on here ?

[Avius]

My apology for contaminating this thread with some rationality. I think, the responsibility increase is meant more along the lines of eliminating the FO's cross wind limits for landings or SO's being able to do the outside checks, etc...

Most other major Airlines do not have these restrictions. If that is the case, that would be a good thing for everyone.

[RAT Management]

Because all command courses are grinding to a hault. lost 3 trainers and more resigning. Maybe SO's can run the next command course for FO's, I think that is the intent of the motion. Chaos is upstairs even though the propaganda machine says everything is fine.:ugh:

[rustyoldtin]

Crosswind landing increase?

[Sand Man]

ADFUS
I know what OPS A says (what exactly do they assess, deck angle, weather?), I'm just pointing out that there are more ISMs that do only start work when the seat belts get turn off for the passengers. Now a TPE flight is a different story, have seen CC work before signs cycled.

[Shot Nancy]

"Deck angle"?
Aah me hearties. Right standard rudder heading 270 and watch the deck angle.

[Some How I'm Tired]

My guess is that since 3 man LHR trial failed, they will now go for Capt/FO/2x SO's. Therefore SO will do walk around.

Huge increase in responsibility!

[betpump5]

Has Flt Ops really run out of anything useful to do that they need to dream up this crap?

Flt Ops are as busy as they have always been. However there is no shortage of little Gobsh!tes who will do anything to get onto the management ladder and start making friends by coming up with their own pet projects. My money is on a a few new Captains wanting to make a name for themselves.

[White None]

To be fair, we don't know if anyone else in Flt Ops, other than the author, had any input? Personally, I doubt it.

[Trafalgar]

Increase x-wind limits...!! :eek: Many of them can barely land with 10kts. :ooh:

[cxorcist]

Increase x-wind limits...!! :eek: Many of them can barely land with 10kts. :ooh:

Then why are they being signed to the line???

[Trafalgar]

...I think you know the answer to that question :ooh:

[cxorcist]

...I think you know the answer to that question :ooh:

Are you implying that CX is compromising safety for cheap pilots? Oh, the horror! That's inconceivable. Never at CX...

[HH Chan]

Increase x-wind limits...!! :eek: Many of them can barely land with 10kts. :ooh:

Werent you once an FO? Why blame the winds...they have to start somewhere dude...

[Trafalgar]

Cxorcist. Are you implying that someone with only 200 hours of 'actual' flying experience can't handle a max ldg wght 777300ER in a 25-38kt gusting crosswind? You sir are of little faith. Personally, I just close my eyes tightly and hang onto the armrests until the end of the controlled crash that usually results (<10kts). I then go and meet my wife and children who i've flown over on BA instead.

[MENELAUS]

Well then Traf. If this is all such a trial for you, the answers in your bailiwick. Just f@ck off. Use BA btw.

[Trafalgar]

Friend of STW? And don't worry, you'll outgrow your 10kt limit eventually....

[mngmt mole]

In 20 yrs, we've gone from being an airline that only hired experienced pilots with proven skill levels, to an airline where a worrying amount of FO's can't consistently land the airplane properly. That is a fact, and not just opinion. But why is that in question, when you have most JFO upgrade candidates having only a few hundred hours of actual flying experience, and that on very small aircraft. The holes in the swiss cheese are slowly but surely lining up. :ugh:

[MENELAUS]

Yes STW is my bru' man. Absolute top banana.
10kts. ? Don't do anything. Just encourages phugoids. 25 kts and 345 tonnes landing weight. That get's my attention.

[Trafalgar]

It's your need for a 'banana' that's most worrying;)

[MENELAUS]

Yes banana for the landing. Except they've scrapped our fruit tray.

[Trafalgar]

:eek:......

[VforVENDETTA]

It's about turning the leader-follower command and control system to the leader-leader system. Read the book called "Turn the ship around" by L. David Marquet and Stephen R. Covey and you'll see what it's about. The 19th century master & commander/capt. airline system which is the leader-follower system currently still prevelent at cx has been proven to be a pathetic failure in efficiency and safety compared to the leader-leader system. It is grossly inefficient in many ways. As typical of cx, they're taking slow baby steps to change almost 20 years behind the industry leaders in this matter as in all other matters. They can't clearly or honestly communicate much, including this. One of the few exceptions to this inability to communicate is the Boeing CP. If you read his newsletters, it's very clear that this has been coming in the pipeline, however slowly.

As usual, ignorance reins supreme on pprune. Same ignorant idiots posting the same ignorant idiotic crap, day after day. I'll take another look next year.

[SloppyJoe]

Not tarnishing all with the same brush but one SO asked why the new procedure for aligning the IRS is not always followed, full align after every crew change. This after returning from his inflight rest, wanting to switch of the IRS's to do the full align as there had just been a crew change. Your leader leader idea would be great here.

Or the FO who used full rudder during the cruise when adjusting his seat.

Or the guy who spent a whole flight planning his venture into dry ice manufacture in Hong Kong as importing it 4KG at a time is so wasteful, how his eyes lit up thinking that there must be no one manufacturing it in the city if it is imported at such expense, and so wastefully, must only be traces left by the time it arrives.

There is a reason why progression happens at an airline and some don't make the cut.

I honestly think the way it is here is quite healthy, most captains let the FO get on with it without much input. Most SO's ask questions during their tenure in that position. The progression and adding of responsibility seems pretty sound. SO, JFO FO RQ CN. Why the sudden reinventing of the wheel?

[BusyB]

Well V, Using the word honestly when referring to CP is a joke. Don't know of any manager with that plus integrity in CX.:confused:

[Natca]

Not tarnishing all with the same brush but one SO asked why the new procedure for aligning the IRS is not always followed, full align after every crew change. This after returning from his inflight rest, wanting to switch of the IRS's to do the full align as there had just been a crew change. Your leader leader idea would be great here.

Or the FO who used full rudder during the cruise when adjusting his seat.

Or the guy who spent a whole flight planning his venture into dry ice manufacture in Hong Kong as importing it 4KG at a time is so wasteful, how his eyes lit up thinking that there must be no one manufacturing it in the city if it is imported at such expense, and so wastefully, must only be traces left by the time it arrives.

There is a reason why progression happens at an airline and some don't make the cut.

I honestly think the way it is here is quite healthy, most captains let the FO get on with it without much input. Most SO's ask questions during their tenure in that position. The progression and adding of responsibility seems pretty sound. SO, JFO FO RQ CN. Why the sudden reinventing of the wheel?

Much easier system to just have FO and Captain. If you cant hack it as a FO you shouldnt be in the seat. The whole JFO thing is a joke that is created by forcing a zero time pilot to sit as a SO for five years. Simple fix is FO RQ CN.

[InSoMnIaC]

I must admit, I don't know what all this nonesense is about but has anyone considered that its not their (flt ops) authority to give?

[Dilbert68]

Legally, the Captain is responsible for everything.

There is nothing that can be mandated by Anna or any of the fleet offices that will change that. I try to give as much responsibility to FO's/SO's who are keen and willing and actually know their job.

Unfortunately, most of them have to be told to put their phone away as we taxi out to the runway.

Everyone is disillusioned with the company in some respect but have some professionalism and do your job well. That will lead to the respect you seek.

[Sand Man]

Dilbert68
Unfortunately, most of them have to be told to put their phone away as we taxi out to the runway.
In my experience there are more CNs that check their phone on taxi. I will concede that some SOs check phones/play games on their iPad but this should no longer be possible.
All for delegating responsibility down but training needs to step up to allow this to happen. Does a 200hr ADL grad really know what he is looking for on a walk around? Apart from that I find in general CX does have a culture of shared input however as previously mentioned the CN is always the individual (can't say guy anymore) responsible.

[Oasis]

Don't we have something in place already?
It's called CRM. Management trying to reinvent the wheel as usual.

[Scoreboard]

nothing opens your mind and shuts down your heart when some little f/o stamps full rudder for 3 knots x-wind...............

Fleet training....just check to line let the line pilots finish their training..................

[Captain Dart]

Could this 'Authority Increase' be a pathetic attempt to motivate the numerous SOs and FOs, who will be waiting a long time for Command, who are looking at quitting for greener pastures, not to leave?

They will try everything except 'pay the money'. Tight as a trout's earhole.

P.S. This post also written by an 'Unpaid Training Captain'.

[bm330]

This is just the predecessor to the FO fuel monitoring project. They've found that long time Captains don't react to threats and intimidation. If Commands are held in limbo, FOs will be forced to buckle under - or else.

[bekolblockage]

nothing opens your mind and shuts down your heart when some little f/o stamps full rudder for 3 knots x-wind...............



That would explain my (SLF) "tank slapper" of an arrival on 07L last Monday morn in light winds. Have never experienced such high alternating, (and for a while increasing!) lateral G forces on landing. Would have been even more interesting in the wet!

[Xwindldg]

Who was PF in the last batch of A50 hard landings?

[Xwindldg]

A couple were definitely the CN as PF..... but going by the shuttle commander heros like bekolblockage how could that be?

[Xwindldg]

That really "opens your mind and shuts down your heart".

[Farman Biplane]

Must be poor technique and training on the differences course then, who would have thought.....