Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.

[Trafalgar]

A good article from one of HK's more insightful writers. Take particular note of the cost of education and housing. You will never own a home, and your children will suffer...

Hong Kong’s a rip-off, even if you’re rich

Rising costs of rent and education are making the city unaffordable. And that’s not going to change as long as bureaucrats are running the show

PUBLISHED : Monday, 24 April, 2017, 7:30am

http://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/70x70/public/scmp_30may14_bz_peter3_eso_8255a.jpg?itok=TND40rmn (http://www.scmp.com/author/peter-guy)
Peter Guy

29 Mar 2017

It is said that the rich man thinks only about money. But, in truth it is the poor man who can think of nothing else.
In “Asia’s (most expensive) world city”, you would be surprised who considers themselves to be poor. You can’t measure or hide behind anecdotal evidence showing the deteriorating quality of Hong Kong’s basket of economic goods that constitute quality of life.
If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens
A locally based senior executive at an international asset manager, frustrated at paying HK$68,000 a month for a flat in Aberdeen for his wife and two kids, decided to move to the suburbs of Taipei where he could afford to rent a house with a garden – and a better quality of life. He travels most of the week, but returning to Taipei is only an hour’s trip. As he said, “Living costs just devoured most of my basic salary each year in Hong Kong.”
Then, an Australian real estate executive told me he can’t keep up with Hong Kong’s insatiable for-profit education system that forces you to deposit about HK$2 million to HK$3 million in school debentures years before a child even enters school. Worst of all, he felt many of the Hong Kong private schools were really no better than free, public schools in Australia.
Hong Kong the world’s priciest home market for the seventh year (http://www.scmp.com/business/article/2064554/hong-kong-named-most-expensive-housing-market-world-seventh-straight-year)
When a senior American manager of a global brokerage was finally appointed as the head of Asia, he immediately relocated his family and the head office to Singapore – “for the educational sake of my kids.” He was “tired of paying tuition increases every year for local private schools who were clearly raising fees without offering any new facilities or teaching value.” He believed Singapore’s private schools were more stable.
The semblance of quality of economic life appears to be cracking in Hong Kong. If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens.

One argument comes from those who say Hong Kong has always been an economic pressure cooker that breeds struggle. It’s never been cheap to live and operate here – but now, for many years running, Hong Kong has become relatively and absolutely expensive.
Hong Kong used to boast about its ‘wild west’, free market. Now after eight years of setting records, the real estate market still refuses to turn down.
Hong Kong’s famous free market and ‘positive non-interventionist’ government policy have evolved into their own brand of free-market failure
But Hong Kong’s famous free market and “positive non-interventionist” government policy have evolved into their own brand of free market failure. As Marx described, the end game of capitalism is when capitalists, with the unwitting aid of government, become oligarchs through greater economic concentration. And the outcome of the proletarian revolution is wealth redistribution.
However, the rich and powerful, as Marx observed in his time, as today, are incapable of reforming or giving in.
Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee, a former chief executive candidate, certainly painted a bleak, but realistic picture to me in a Feburary interview. “You need a more reformist leader, not a bureaucrat to make significant changes. You need outsiders with a firebrand approach. Bureaucrats have been part of the system for too long and they are reluctant to change. Bureaucrats rarely take controversial positions.”
Thus, since 1997 the Hong Kong government has turned out to be quite restricted and circumscribed in its policies and powers despite the Basic Law. It maintains economic and social order through a century-old model that integrates the colonised into government power, while still keeping the colonial subjects in their place. By refusing them the ability to implement economic reforms, Hong Kong people can prosper in Chinese territory, but they can never truly be citizens.

[flyhardmo]

Standing by for a brushwinger to say it's not that expensive.

[Octane]

Is it really that bad in HK?

[Freehills]

It's why the kids came onto the streets with their yellow umbrellas.

[Trafalgar]

It's important to make the potential new CX snowflakes aware of all the relevant facts. I am providing a public service. :)

[hkgcanuck]

I don't disagree with your message, but do you think calling them snowflakes is a good way to get them to respect your opinion?

[Trafalgar]

If they can't even stand being labeled a 'snowflake', I don't think too much of their ability to learn and lead. Basically, the mere fact they may be 'offended' by the term only confirms that they are, in fact, a 'snowflake'. (and i'm not particularly concerned if they 'respect' my opinion).

[Trafalgar]

The fact that a 'name' is all it takes to get you riled up to that degree is all the proof of my point. And btw, you have no idea what my own context of the word 'snowflake' is. It's your self anointed definition that is all to obvious by your comments. I might add that my own thoughts on the profession today, and the people it attracts are largely formed by what I see daily around me. You can dislike 'grumpy old codgers', but they are the ones who have the experience and longevity to legitimately analyse what the 'state of the nation' is in the industry today.

[Freehills]

Obviously the way to survive on CX pay scales is to become a trainer, and get that sweet sweet training bonus

[Sam Ting Wong]

Traf,

which part of "market forces" don't you understand ?

[Trafalgar]

....the part where you sell your talents for pennies on the dollar...? Oh, wait....no, I figured that out decades ago. You?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Ok, let me explain " market forces" to you.

Slowly.


First you look at your OPTIONS.

Then you COMPARE those options.

Then you make a DECISION.



Now, let's practise with an example!


You are a 20-30 year old First Officer at a Commuter Airline in South Africa.

Because you are from South Africa, you hold a South African Passport.

All clear until now? Easy. Step by step, we are getting there.

Now compare your options.

Option A

You can stay where you are. Your salary is about 20 000 HK$ after tax, you are based in Joburg ( your family and friends are in Cape Town). Occasionally you are a bit worried about crime and the general political situation, just a tiny little bit. Your career chances are sort of limited, you fly 90 hrs short haul, and your company laid off a third of their pilots last year.

Option B

You can join Cathay Pacific. Your starting salary is 3 times as much, you wife can work as an English teacher with an additional salary of 20 k, you live in a 2 bed DB for 18 k. A bit small, yes, but you kind of enjoy walking outside without getting mugged. Also you find a layover in Paris slightly more relaxing then in Lagos.

Option C

You can join EK. Your salary is less than at Cathay, your work load is significantly higher, your living cost are roughly the same.



Now, please, with sugar on top, understand:

No answer you are about to give that contains the words " should have, would have or could have" are valid arguments.

The mean thing about market forces are:

you have to make a decision based on your options in the real world, ok? You got that?

I say it again: The REAL world.

[AQIS Boigu]

The cost of living is substantially less in Dubai than HKG with a 1500sqft 3BR apartment provided for free OR you can buy your own with EK's housing allowance for a fraction of the price in Tung Chung or DB without the extra stamp duty.

...and you are closer to your family in RSA.

A no brainer really for anyone on C or D scale.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Sure, Aquis. Dubai is the land of milk and honey. Buahahahaha.

By the way, you cannot buy in Dubai because the cash option is not offered anymore.

Your dream flat-for-free is in the dessert in some concentration camp/ compound.

Cost of living are NOT significant cheaper in Dubai if you accept a smaller flat.

What advantage has it to be 4 hours closer to home if you have 9 days off ( not in a row), you fly 100 hrs and can't commute anyway?

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Fascinating story by the way, Normanton.

[AQIS Boigu]

Sure, Aquis. Dubai is the land of milk and honey. Buahahahaha.

I never said that - all I said was that the cost of living is cheaper than HKG and that it would be easier to get into the market with more bang for your buck.

But how would you know...I believe you are on the 777 hence you haven't been to DXB in years.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I don't disagree with your message, but do you think calling them snowflakes is a good way to get them to respect your opinion?

Maybe not, but it's a great way to illustrate the level of respect they will be getting from their employer and colleagues.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)

C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK....

Take the job if you don't have other options though.

[Trash8mofo]

So why cant CX offer a commuting contract like ANA or Korean? Seems like a win-win no? 13 days off, good quality of life back home. Wife and kids are happy. And CX saves a bunch of money on housing and education subsidies. Whats the problem with that?

[Captain Dart]

That's what I used to say regarding this lot for over a quarter of a century. But now, CX is attracting lots of 'shiny jetters' and South Africans desperate to get out of their dysfunctional homeland so maybe the company feels they don't need to. Housing 'subsidy' is significantly lower and education allowance is now non-existent. Both these groups are flying for peanuts and accepting living conditions in Hong Kong on the offered terms, there are plenty of trainers voluntarily diluting their own contract and training them up to standard, so on the whole, the jets are being crewed.

So now, where is the incentive for them to offer commuting or bases? CX could'n't care less whether wives or family are 'happy' unless a critical mass of pilots vote with their feet and leave for that reason, and that hasn't happened so far. And senior (read 'expensive') crew who leave are replaced with the trained-up 'cheapies' so it is actually win-win for the company.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Spot on, Cpt Dart

[Dan Winterland]

Having spoken to several of the South Africans in HK, I get the impression that many are keen to work in the Sandpit as it's so much easier to get home for visits. But they didn't have experience to work for the ME3 at the time. They're getting it now!

[broadband circuit]

Seems like a win-win no?

You clearly don't work for CX.......

Over the years, there have been so many win-win opportunities, but the mangement have steadfastly refused to entertain any of them. It's always been about control.

note: anyone who's been at CX for a while will understand my deliberate misspelling of mangement.

[Sam Ting Wong]

"Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)

C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK...."

WHY????? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES???? NOTHING!!!!!!


I urge you to see Cathay not from YOUR perspective, but from those who join NOW and have to survive in a brutal market.

Since YEARS you guys are fantasizing of crew shortages, smoking holes in the ground, lack of experience, bla bla bla.

NOTHING of these gloom and doom has EVER materialized. EVER!

And STILL you believe it, STILL you judge new joiners, STILL you believe they will run away to EK ( ridiculous!!!), STILL you are patronizing all those poor souls, it is a "no-brainer" bla bla bla.

You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed. Jesus!! What is so hard to understand???

STOP FIGHTING HKPA, ACCEPT REALITY, CONCENTRATE ON SAVING ARAPA AND REGULAR PAYRISES !!!!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!

[Sam Ting Wong]

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/593228-ek-enough-enough.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/551834-ek-resignation-tips.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/480579-etihad-discussion-prohibited.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/589895-has-ek-been-worst-decision-ever.html

[drfaust]

Option D
Join KA get a v quick command.

By far the best option!

[Captain Dart]

If I remember rightly the 'Mangers' NTC came out after. Written and spellchecked by 'Richard Gear' I think.

[crwkunt roll]

You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed.
Indeed it has...... never could you walk into an airline with no experience, or brains. Suck it up princess, you are getting paid what you deserve.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Frank,

I totally agree with you that CX isn't what it used to be, all I am saying is:

what matters for a new-joiner is the relative value of the current contract compared to the alternatives.

We are living in a bubble.

How do you think pilots at HK Airlines or at Air Hong Kong survive? Can they save ? Do they live in big flats?

The world has changed. The idea e.g. to have the luxury of a stay-at-home spouse and a couple of kids, maybe that is a thing of the past?

Again, I am not saying that this is a good thing!

It simply doesn't matter what we think, the market will decide.

Let's not lose ourselves in hypothetical, pointless discussions about what should or could be. Let's face reality. And let's stop patronizing new-joiners and accept they actually DID think well and hard about the terms and conditions before joining.

Which is why I do have empathy for them , but at the same time no motivation to sacrifice my own contract for them.

I did not change the contract, nor did I force anyone to accept it.

PS I still would take Anchorage over Lagos.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dan,

are you saying bitching and moaning on the flight deck is an invention of the C scalers?

How did C scale change my contract? When?

C scale has been introduced 7 or 8 years ago, no change yet!

The idea that improved terms on the C scale would protect B scales is absurd. How?

Again, you are losing yourself in mind games and conspiracy theories in my opinion.

[TheGreenDragon]

Cathay Dragon crews are helping the company in these difficult times.
A 75% vote to accept an indefinite pay freeze . The agreed freeze is until March 2018 but we know that's not the end of it. Give ' em an inch ....

Local contract guys did ok. Increased levels of child education subsidy and an offer to move over to standard contract therefore allowing those on local B increased housing AND full educational subsidy.

You've gotta laugh though. At what point will management engage in meaningful pay negotiations when they pilot body are such an easy push over ? Just offer another pay freeze in 2018-19, in return the company will look into the pilots medical insurance, salary claims, overnight allowances blah blah.

It will happen, mark my words. And meanwhile inflation continues its inexorable erosion of KA pilots real salary value.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Totally agreed, Frank. Some people might regret the move, they might move on, even leave aviation. All quite possible.The current conditions offered might not be sufficient to keep C scalers in the long run.

But why should that matter today in terms of contractual negotiations ?
Why should a company offer better conditions now ?

Wouldn't that be like wearing a fur coat in summer because it will get cold in winter?

If people decide to leave, they could just improve the package, right?

PS I know the 747 roster is very problematic at the moment. No offense was intended.

[HHChan]

Option D
Join KA get a v quick command.

Are they giving quick command now?

[KINAV8R76]

Guys, apologies for crashing the CX thread here but it seemed like the best place to post this question. I'd like to address the salary question from the opposite perspective - I'm a bizjet guy and been offered a left seat with a HKG base. I haven't signed the contract but the salary on offer, all in, is coming to $150K HKD/month, no other allowances like house/school. I have a wife, 2 kids, plus 1 on the way. I haven't signed the contract yet but from reading all your posts here am starting to get a bit nervous.

For all you guys out there who have families - is this enough to live on? When I say 'live' I mean send kids to decent international school, rent a place that isn't a shoe-box on 99th floor, run a small car, and still have a bit left over to put in the kitty?

Thanks for your time.

[Trafalgar]

STW. So, you imply that 'our' comments are dishonest? According to who, yourself?. Why don't you tell him how that is more than enough money to drag his family here. Why don't you tell him that he and his family will enjoy living in a 500 sq/ft apartment. And then of course there's food, utilities, insurance, medical costs (!), transportation, the cost of travel (or I guess the wife and kids can just stay 12mo/yr in HK?). So please, as you chimed in, give the man the 'truth'. :D

FYI: SamTingWong had a post up (between mine and the one above) a few minutes ago suggesting that most of us weren't being 'honest' with our account of costs in HK. Well, he deleted his post. I guess he realised that once again he was proving himself a complete w@#ker. Coward.

[Sam Ting Wong]

http://www.dbis.edu.hk/401/admissions/fees

https://www.spacious.hk/en/hong-kong/discovery-bay/for-rent?gclid=COWWhI2H4NMCFc8TaAod6W8BiQ


PS I personally would not do it, but since
a) I don't know your alternatives
b) you will fall prey to some very angry people in a moment
check out the facts for yourself.

[Trafalgar]

....waiting for the 'delete'.....

[Trafalgar]

I'll save KINAV8R the trouble. Here is a copy of the post on the KA Standard Contract thread (for KA, read 'CX'), although comically they pay more than twice the amount of housing allowance than CX does. Copied below......

Having been on the standard contract for a couple of years now, I have realised that I made a terrible mistake...and now i regret it....
I was lured at the prospect of working for a legacy airline, one that provided a full package that would enable myself and my family to live comfortably in a vibrant city like hong kong. I, like many others in my position, looked at the remuneration package KA had to offer and jumped at the opportunity. I was ignorant. I researched the price of living in HK and thought to myself, although it wasn't extravagant, we could manage in the hope that my salary would increase year upon year and the company would reward us with pay rises in time.
Boy was I wrong. No pay increase in the past 2 years while the price of living here has gone up 25% in the time i have been here. Rents are ridiculous...and the price of education has gone through the roof. Forget trying to send your child to a decent school as the debentures to get into anything comparable to the standard we are used to in Europe will not be covered by the company. ESF school rates have also sky rocketed. Independent schools obviously charge more.

The company gives us a special allowance of HK$21,300 for FO's and HK$32,000 for skippers. They do not call it a housing allowance (although everyone uses it to pay rent) because they know that it does not cover rental costs in HK, unless of course you live in a 500 sq ft apartment in DB or Tung Chung. The special allowance does not cover rentals for a family sized apartment.

The medical insurance is also sub standard and we have been trying to push for improvement for many years now with meagre results.

The rosters are about the most unstable I've ever seen of any company. There is absolutely no stability in rostering and you will switch from early shifts to late shifts within the same week. You cannot plan anything on a day that you have to work. They OWN you on that day, regardless if you are doing earlies or lates.

The seniority system is a farce. Bidding for flights or vacation is not transparent and is only based on your first attempt. A second attempt at a bid will leave you in the same bidding pool as everyone else so where is seniority considered if you fail to gain any leave or flight pattern on the 1st attempt?


Whilst my overall wages are higher than my previous job, I am saving much less because of the high living costs in Hong Kong. Sure, I came here with EYES WIDE OPEN...but no amount of research can prepare you until you actually come here and see how expenses mount.

If you are single and plan on staying that way, the standard COS will be adequate and you'll live a humble life renting a small apartment...maybe a girlfriend or two....but if she gets pregnant and you decide to raise a family...don't expect to live the lifestyle that you are used to back home.....my guess is you'll take the free rating and go back home...something I am in the process of doing at the moment.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Trafalgar,

you sound more bitter by the day.

If you honestly think that 150 k income would result in living on 500 sqft you are either a lyer or an imbecile. Your pick.

PS I say again: I would NOT accept the contract. But, dear Trafalgar, why do you hate the truth so much? Why don't you trust in the judgement of a colleague who is simply asking a simple question?

[Trafalgar]

Again, who's 'truth'? I have my opinion, you have yours (unless you go and delete it because it was imbecilic and accusatory). And btw, i'm not bitter, just not willing to let the management of CX have a free ride on the backs of their hard working staff. I don't need to be an apologist for an incompetent management who have treated their staff abominably. Anyone who has been here for long enough has seen the cynical, contemptuous and intimidatory way that our management has gone about hollowing out this airline, and devaluing our profession. If you want to try and excuse that, again, you are entitled to your opinion. I am quite satisfied with pointing out the decrepitude of our management and the damage they have done to everyone who has committed their careers to this company. Others, apparently like yourself, seem to have a perverse need to try and rationalise their behaviour.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Trafalgar..

although this is maybe difficult for you to accept, not all and everything is about Cathay. This gentleman is asking a question about a corporate job.

What is wrong with you?

By the way, if you think the offer is below you, THAT is the market I am trying to explain to you dreamers... Welcome to REALITY.

Why don't you check what a HK Express guy earns? Or a skipper at Air Hong Kong?

And you? Rejects a payrise and housing extension on Cathay B scale.. Insane!

[mngmt mole]

Well Sam, if a pilot on the CX package has a hard time making ends meet, probably even less chance on a corporate package. And it appears his prior comment was mainly directed to you.

[Trafalgar]

Sam, most of your posts seem to want to rationalise and excuse what has happened in HK over the years as it's to do with CX. Let's agree to disagree. As for our colleague who was asking the question, your original post (deleted) implied that 'we' were going to try and discourage him from coming, and that somehow 'we' were then being less than honest in our appraisal. However, you then go and discourage him yourself. :confused:

I also don't understand why you keep referring to other airlines. I came to work for CX, because they demonstrated they valued my skills and experience. Now they treat experience and skill like it has the same value as a greeter at Walmart. I wouldn't come to work for CX now, for that reason. And I wouldn't come to work for any of the others you mentioned either. The fact that they are willing to hire low experience for low pay is a tragedy of the business today, and one that will come back to bite them very hard at some point in the future. I am not willing to edify or validate that. We once had a worth, based on our prior experience and trials and tribulations lived in gaining that experience and judgement. Now, that doesn't seem to matter, which is why we have a significant number of dodgy landings, questionable approaches and general worrying trends developing. No amount of 'rationalisation' will change that.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Mole,

I never said life on C scale is anything but not hard. Never.

That is not the point.

I say the market has changed and we should accept that, and not rejecting payrises.

You are shooting the messenger, that is what you are doing.

[Sam Ting Wong]

As do you, Trafalgar.

[Trafalgar]

As for rejecting the 'payraise'. I suggest you have a one on one with Rod F and have him explain why that entire offer was a poisoned chalice. I would have liked the money, but not at the expense of throwing away the entire reason for even having an Association. There was a reason they had Clause 7 in the mix (and refused to take it out when challenged). The fact that you and many others couldn't understand the long term implications of what the management were trying to do is worrying. It's not always about the money...but that is all you keep seeming to mention.

[volare_737]

Could you guys explain why a single guy can't get by on 150K ??????? Even a couple should be doing ok on that money. Please show me how you calculate your monthly cost, because my calculations show that 150 K should be plenty !!!
Again - I can see if you have kids it becomes harder, but for a single guy !!!! Please !!!!!

[Sam Ting Wong]

I respect RF's view but I did not share it then neither do I today.

What do you guess, same offer on the the table today, how much would sign it?

I say 90 %.

[Gaisha]

Could you guys explain why a single guy can't get by on 150K ??????? Even a couple should be doing ok on that money. Please show me how you calculate your monthly cost, because my calculations show that 150 K should be plenty !!!
Again - I can see if you have kids it becomes harder, but for a single guy !!!! Please !!!!!

The operative word is SINGLE guy....and i would agree, no problem as a single guy on 150K a month. The corporate pilot mentioned he had a family if I recall.

[Trafalgar]

I'm not talking about a single guy Volare. I've always said if you're single (and plan on staying that way) it's an 'ok' deal. Just nothing to actually consider as a career airline, where you need to think long term, things like wife, children, health, retirement, etc...

[Trafalgar]

And STW, on that point you are probably correct. People get weary. Doesn't mean the principle still isn't valid.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

150m hkd is not bad.
Consider paying 15% tax on it, 25000hkd for schooling, 35000hkd for a flat.

I'd say you'd be on the same $$$ as a CX senior FO on expat terms (with a smaller flat).
You'd have a good lifestyle, not a great one.

What are your options? (salary / base)

[Sam Ting Wong]

Trafalgar,

can I offer you a deal?

You keep your principles, I keep my contract.

[Trafalgar]

I assumed as much considering your value scale.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

You keep your principles, I keep my contract.

'Keeping your contract' is exactly why the TA you cry so much about was voted down.

If you're so desperate about getting more money, move to the sand box. There won't be any pesky unions getting in the way of you getting screwed by management there.

Or maybe, next time you sign a contract, do your homework and make sure you can make a living without foolishly hoping for a raise to make it work...

[BusyB]

Management contracts are different!!!!

[Sam Ting Wong]

As are contracts in in the sand box. About half of B scale with more work.

I am really impressed to work with you guys. Men of principle!! Heros!!

PS If you believe it or not, I respect your opinions. And I believe you really think you do the right thing. But so do Amish people and Coldplay.

[BusyB]

Don't forget the housing in the sandpit. Makes a huge difference to the contract.

[broadband circuit]

Don't forget the housing in the sandpit. Makes a huge difference to the contract.

From a purely financial angle, it is THE difference.

CX B scale is better then sandpit. (no arguments I'm sure)
sandpit is better than C scale.

A conspiracy theorist would believe that the managers of different airlines are colluding in a race to the bottom

[KINAV8R76]

Thanks for the replies fellas..

Zapp - My options are not too bad. I could stay where I am (small private operator in SE England but not much flying and salary not exactly great), I also have a potential opportunity at Vista Jet with an EU base. The lure of HKG was a chance to live somewhere a bit more exotic than England (we aren't English so it's not home for us either), be in Asia and do some travelling to neighboring countries, and hopefully save a bit of cash out of what initially appeared to be a half-decent salary.

We're experienced enough expats, have done the sandpit thing for nearly 6yrs - no interest in going back, couple of years around the caribbean, also did some time in SIN but I wasn't with family so life in the world's most expensive city was not so expensive compared to what HKG would be.

I get the impression that 150k/month is not negotiable and factoring in the taxes just reduces it even more. Someone else mentioned how prices are constantly going up - that's also another concern so what is just 'only OK' today could be worth a bit less tomorrow.

Thanks again for the feedback - I appreciate it.

[Trafalgar]

Not to mention the much quicker commands. Do a 'career earnings' spreadsheet. EK leaves a CX C scale career in the dust.