Autogyros - commercial use

[Mikey66]

Hello, wasn't sure what forum too post this on but seeing as they have thrashing things on top.... Anyone ever come across autogyros for commercial use or are they just regarded as 'fun' machines with no real commercial use and have a poor safety record? Apart from the lack of rules and regs surrounding their commercial use.... I can see them complementing other airborne platforms quite nicely as well as filling certain niches... Just thought I would put it out there

[Danny42C]

Mikey66,

The Fairy "Rotordyne" (Google/Wiki) at White Waltham was one effort.Too noisy was the trouble.

[goudie]

A friend of mine has one, an open two seater. I've flown in it a few times and yes it is fun but cannot envisage a commercial use. Not sure about ' poor safety record'. As with any flying machine if they're operated correctly they're quite safe.

[Mikey66]

Oh yeah, read about that, interesting concept, not sure how they powered the wing tips? Prob wrong saying poor safety record, any aircraft, assuming it's mechanically sound is safe as long as operated within it's own limitations (actually, more importantly, the pilots limitations), just want to get get a handle on why they never taken off

[Danny42C]

Mikey66,

Google "Fairey Rotordyne" and all will be revealed.

[dah dah]

Mikey

It is all very recent, but in the UK there is a certified machine, The Cavalon, that can be used for day/night VFR piloted by a CPL(G). I think there is just one machine so far and just a handful of pilots.

There is very little obvious overlap between heli ops and gyro ops at this stage, but it will be interesting to see what happens as gyro capability increases.

Mark

[ShyTorque]

Danny, it's spelled "Rotodyne". Only one r in it.

It was the tip jets that caused the noise complaints. A great shame it was cancelled because the aircraft had an exceptional gross weight to basic weight ratio. Far better than most helicopters.

[5179]

yester yrs gyros were having a bad run, but now is a whole new story. Google.....magni, ela, mt03, arrowcopter, cavalon, dta jrow, fleurieu, plus others.
Gyros are reported as widely used in australia in the grazing industry. Did hear that they were to be legalised for such use.

[Paul Cantrell]

Anyone ever come across autogyros for commercial use or are they just regarded as 'fun' machines with no real commercial use

I have a handful of hours in an Air & Space 18A. Not a stellar performing aircraft.

Although it had jump capability, about all it was good was to jump you over a small bush, because the subsequent shallow takeoff angle wouldn't clear any kind of massive obstacle. A Cessna 172 climbs out more steeply than the one I was flying.

Also, not having a collective seems to be a big safety problem. If you got yourself into a situation where you are mushing towards the ground there's no way to pull collective just before impact to cushion the landing.

Also, while you'll see people say that they're safer than a helicopter because they're always in autorotation, the CFI that was flying with me said they actually have a pretty bad safety record.

All in all, I came away with the impression that an autogyro/gyrocopter is all the worst bits of an airplane bolted to all the worst bits of a helicopter. Seriously.

Also, it was loud. We were getting tons of noise complaints whenever we flew (fairly loud engine & prop, coupled to the slow rate of climb meant we were overflying houses down low when we were in the pattern).

[heli1]

Same old myth about the Rotodyne....it wasn't noise that killed it( the tip jets were only fired up for a couple or so minutes during takeoff and landing,and silencers were being tested anyway)...it was lack of government support and funding at a time when Westland had three competing heavy lift projects on the go. They chose to go with the Belvedere instead which had an actual order placed.

[jonkster]

FWIW, many years ago when I was working in the Oz outback, several blokes were using recreational autogyro's as mustering aircraft (mustering sheep and cattle on large properties where the average paddock size was north of 10,000 acres). Although not fitting exactly under the regulations (they would claim if questioned by anyone who looked official they were just helping out friends) they were doing commercial operations and making a living out of it.

Very hairy though.

[PANews]

Gyros were simply a 1920s phase in the development of the 'real' helicopter. Neither fish nor fowl. There is a niche place for them but that is probably it.

The current lead agency in their development is probably Groen Brothers in the USA but they simply have not got the money to certify the various [pretty similar] craft they put forward over the years and clearly better men than I have looked at the commercial risk and decided that the rewards are not worth the investment.

They can do a commercial job but are better suited to the private user for fun.

If you are investing in a commercial pilot to drive one there is going to be little if any difference in the salary the driver wants and not that much difference in the cost of the airframe/maintenance. Yes there might be a difference in the fuel consumption with a driven rotor but set against that is a need to take off and land from a football pitch rather than a tennis court.

Just not enough gains from a commercial viewpoint.

IMHO

[Thracian]

In Germany, flying Autogyros requires an ultra-light license. And this also entitles for commercial flying (no need for CPL).
So there's quite some stuff being done with gyrocopters (especially with aircraft from the german manufacturer "AutoGyro" like the MTOSport, Cavalon, Calidus, ...).
Scenic flights and foto/film-shooting are the biggest aereas.
And the Rotax-Engines the AutoGyro models use, are not that loud. They sound like any other UL-aircraft.

Thracian

[Fareastdriver]

Autogyros have had lots of uses over the years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM

cvbbQaIoaSM

[bladegrabber]

[QUOTE=Fareastdriver;9762714]Autogyros have had lots of uses over the years.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM[/URL
Built one and flew them for years, even displayed em for a while but lost a few good friends to them unloading their rotors which is immediately terminal. The newer designs seem to have a good safety record though so ok if you just want a fun machine !

BG

[Bravo Alpha One]

Older designs certainly had a [deserved] bad reputation - especially kit built ones. Main problem being "power push over", where the prop thrust line was above C of G and so increased power would tend to "arseovertit" to a point where recovery was impossible.

Following some clever aeronautical engineering that problem has been overcome, and providing you don't try to fly aerobatics [!!] they are much safer. Often wondered why they are not used for some purpose other than [great] fun, but they can be cold [even the Calidus with doors]. However, with that little Rotax engine they are fairly economical to run - especially compared with helicopters.

[GS-Alpha]

The Cavalon Pro in action (https://vimeo.com/162450824)

[Mikey66]

The Cavalon looks a wonderful sexy fun looking aircraft, to be honest they have obvious uses to me but poor rep safety wise and other reasons means they have never taken off I have a few ideas about how they could be used with a mate of mine but is it just a case of reaching maturity (and adding caa rules and regs surrounding them)?Btw, the rotadyne never seemed a flawed concept to me, just commercial pressures and politics got in way

[Photonic]

The Cavalon does indeed look like sexy fun in that video. However, for that specific application of aerial video, I couldn't help wondering why you'd use this rig instead of a commercial camera drone? It would be cheaper, safer, and have the ability to hover in place, which is a major advantage in cinematography. Zooming around with a camera on the nose really limits your options.

[Vzlet]

Tomball Texas police:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5731/21553553935_10d2326dd4_c.jpg

[GS-Alpha]

Zooming around with a camera on the nose really limits your options.
I'm not entirely sure 10-15mph classifies as zooming around and there's no vortex ring to worry about during slow flight, but I agree that autogyros will not be poaching a great deal of work back from drones. I do however think there are applications where they are more suitable than drones, and considerably cheaper than a helicopter.

[PANews]

Great picture of the Tomball gyro but even the cops get into trouble with these super safe craft it seems.... January 2014....

.... police gyrocopter crashed Thursday morning near Hooks Airport in northwest Harris County, officials said.
The incident occurred about 11:30 a.m. in the 8800 block of Boudreaux, according to the Harris County Sheriff’s Office.
Deputies said the aircraft belongs to the Tomball Police Department.
It was unclear if anyone was hurt.

In contrast to that negative though it wold seem that it is going to be far easier to arrange a manned flight by something like a gyro than any unmanned system. Same number of pilots, they self deliver to the scene of the action and have a duration way longer than 30 minutes.

The only drawback seems to be that they are usually noisy and will not fit inside a building very well.....

[Pittsextra]

bigger issue might be where they fit. Cost isn't the issue for many customers who find the need to use a helicopter where many tasks are undertaken by twin turbines. Were cost the issue one might expect the first step change would be to downsize from the EC135 to an R44 for example. gyro wise payload and single engine only is a barrier whilst early adopters not only need the licence but then find a contract and fund a machine. Seems tough ask.

[Mike Flynn]

I'm not entirely sure 10-15mph classifies as zooming around and there's no vortex ring to worry about during slow flight, but I agree that autogyros will not be poaching a great deal of work back from drones. I do however think there are applications where they are more suitable than drones, and considerably cheaper than a helicopter.

I have to agree there has to be more cost effective methods of police aviation than the current highly expensive regime.

They were happy with a rented 206 and a constable 30 years ago but only launched for major issues.

Missing persons and stolen cars plus drunk drivers seems to be the business model now.

Here is a classic example of the Manchester Police not interested in a £17k scam involving one of their own!
Among the victims was a retired police officer who lost £17,000 buying a Mercedes from a seller in Rochdale.
He said he reported the incident to the police, but no action was taken. Police said the decision is being reviewed.
Former police officer Graham Murray lost his money after buying a Mercedes C-class in Rochdale two months ago, leaving him "devastated".
He said he reported the case to police and has questioned why the fraudulent eBay sellers have not yet been caught. Cloned cars sold in Greater Manchester eBay scam - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39792644)

Too busy wasting big money on low life helicopter baiters that never get a custodial sentence.

[Photonic]

I'm not entirely sure 10-15mph classifies as zooming around and there's no vortex ring to worry about during slow flight, but I agree that autogyros will not be poaching a great deal of work back from drones. I do however think there are applications where they are more suitable than drones, and considerably cheaper than a helicopter.

I can only comment from the aerial photography/cinematography angle, based on that video above. That's what I did for a living before I retired -- camera operator and director, non-pilot, the guy that pays the helicopter charter fees.

I just don't see it filling that very narrow niche between a camera drone for low-budget gigs, and a helicopter for larger and well-financed productions. It's neither fish nor fowl.

[Heli20A]

Hi there,

I would just like to add that I fly Autogyros and feel a lot safer when flying a gyro than when flying a helicopter. And I feel very safe when I fly a helicopter!

Here's a video of a flight I made, taken by the passenger of an other autogyro

bf6fRxE6Hl8

As for commercial use, I can't really pronounce myself as I only do sightseeing-tour/training.
I can say for sure that it's an incredible, stable, aerial platform; which is able to do slow flights (30km/h at max gross weight) at very low heights with the event of an engine failure in mind.
I've taken a professional photographer on several flights (who's used to work with the Astar) and he was bluffed and extremely satisfied !

You can find a picture of the autogyro I fly on my website : Volerencorse.fr (http://volerencorse.fr)

[Mikey66]

All the above has given me stuff to ponder on. Maybe there is just a niche area from them (as greater range/endurance then drones and cheaper then helicopters but the big players don't seem the mind the extra cost as someone pointed out). Only major disadvantage I can see is that they can not hover (appear 'safe' nowadays plus can't see them being any more noisy then other small/light aircraft), maybe payload limited but can carry more then a drone and as 'kit' becomes smaller and power increases.... To be honest, I don't know too much about gyros and never flown in one but trying to look beyond their obvious uses, plus there's the fun aspect ☺

[ethicalconundrum]

I built, and flew a Bensen B8-M back in the 80s. It was pretty fun, but really, you are sitting on a canvas sling seat, with a few bars below you and a noisy as heck 2 stroke drone engine and prop right behind you. Back then, it was incredibly rough and shaky. I tried to balance out the blades a couple times, and it was slightly better, but most of the vibration was developed from the pusher 2 stroke, and the prop disk passing through obstructed air around the pilot and the airframe.

I heard of a couple of people a while back using them for pipeline patrol. Not sure why they didn't use a Cessna/Maule or something with observer doors.

I didn't put many hours on mine before finding out that it wasn't the safest bird every designed. Power push over was only one failing. There was also the short coupling of the CG to rudder distance, low moment of inertia and as I got better at flying it, noticed the gyroscopic effect of the rotor disc caused some interesting torque effects on the stick and rudder forces.

The poor thing I had sucked fuel like a turbine. Slow flight was fine, right up until it wasn't and then things got ugly very quick. Can't really see much of a mission for them, but I had a good time. New ones look much better.

[surely not]

I think a few guys on here are doing the equivalent of comparing an early 1900's Ford Model T with a modern Ferrari.

Modern gyrocopters are a million miles away from the early machines and MTO and Magni have a comprehensive range of models, from open cockpit to enclosed cabin. They are a available with a glass cockpit and are less noisy than an R22.

If you want to see what they are capable of just go to YouTube and view a couple of the videos made by gyrocopter girl.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-4Y727dY4M

[BOBAKAT]

Many years ago, i run successfully my own gyro company with à M 16 Magni in BORA BORA Island (French Polynesia).
Aerial picture/video and tours... I stop it when i move in Thaïland.

[Roger Thatmate]

Mikey66

PM me if you want to know about potential commercial work for Gyroplanes. I am unable to PM you, probably because I have rarely posted on prune before and my account has been dormant for years!

Cheers

[Gyro London]

Mikey66

PM me if you want to know about potential commercial work for Gyroplanes. I am unable to PM you, probably because I have rarely posted on prune before and my account has been dormant for years!

Cheers

Hey Roger Thatmate, I am very interested to hear of potential commercial uses for Gyros as I am just about to start my training for the CPL(G).

[Spunk]

So there is a CPL(G)?
Never heard of it before🤔

[GS-Alpha]

It's fairly new.